Re: bi

[Craig Sanders]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, mike horansky wrote:

> vi is a modal editor, so has a much steeper learning curve than
> something like ae.

modal vs modeless isn't the only criterion for difficulty - there are
many other factors involved.

the more complex things about vi can be difficult to learn, but you
dont have to learn them all at once. you can run vi knowing only that
i=insert, esc=finish insert, d=delete, and the cursor movement keys
(arrows or hjkl).

vi appears to be difficult when you first start using it, but it is
actually extremely simple. there is an amazing consistency in the vi
user interface - unlike many so-called 'modeless' editors, you don't
have to learn different sequences of keystrokes (or worse, mouse clicks)
depending on what mode (aka "dialog box") you're in. There are only two
modes: 1) text entry / insert mode and 2) edit mode (":" command mode is
just an extension to the edit mode). pressing ESC will always get you
back to command mode.

it took me only a few weeks from when i started with knowledge as basic
as that to get to the point of feeling confident about some of the more
complicated operations like how the Yank buffer worked, and using 'm'
to mark the current cursor position, and regexp search & replace rather
than string literal S&R.

a key point to make here is that regexps aren't difficult to learn
because of vi, they are difficult to learn because they are complex -
but you MUST learn them if you want to have any proficiency with unix.
vi actually makes them easier to learn because you can play with them
interactively.

like many things in unix, regexps aren't difficult when you know them,
when you've learned the one or two fundamental concepts behind them -
after that, once you understand them they make perfect sense and you
wonder how you ever did without them.

once you have learnt regexps, you can use them in many other unix
programs: ed, sed, awk, perl, less, and many others.

> I stay versed in vi commands because I have to be, not because I want
> to be. There may be a better bare-bones editor for debian than ae, but
> it should not be vi.

no, it should be vi because that is the standard unix text editor. you
want something else, then install something elsebut every unix
system should have vi installed. unix without vi is like unix without
sh.

IMO, the base system should have vi AND some crappy editor like ae or
pico, with some note saying "if you can't use vi, then XXX is installed"

craig

Re: vi

[Craig Sanders]

> What I missed most, and missed on years of word processors, is the
> trivially easy manner of making compound, repeated, commands. 

yes, this is especially important when you consider that editing config
files often requires making substantially the same change to many lines.

the generic example:

/oldtext
cwnewtext
:map , n.
,,,


a more concrete example.  your network has been renumber and you need to
change all occurences of 192.168.1 with 192.168.200 in the following text.

IPADDR="192.168.1.2"# REPLACE with YOUR IP address!
NETMASK="255.255.255.0" # REPLACE with YOUR netmask!
NETWORK="192.168.1.0"   # REPLACE with YOUR network address!
BROADCAST="192.168.1.255"   # REPLACE with YOUR broadcast address, if you
GATEWAY="192.168.1.1"   # REPLACE with YOUR gateway address!

1G  # move to start of file
/192.168.1  # search for 192.168.1
5cw192.168.200 # change 5 'words' to 192.168.2
n   # find next
.   # repeat change
n   # find next
.   # repeat change
n   # find next
.   # repeat change
:x  # save and exit

takes probably all of 5 seconds. to do the same in a modeless editor
like pico or joe would involved dozens of extra cursor movement, insert,
and delete commands (you can't just do a simple overstrike because
'.200' is longer than the '.1')

you could also do the same with search and replace (but there are many
similar types of edit jobs where S&R is not appropriate because it may
have unintended consequences...e.g. you want to change some but not all
occurences of a string).  

Even where S&R is appropriate, it is much simpler to type:

:%s/192.168.1/192.168.200/g

than it is to type or mouse-click your way through one or two or more
dialog boxes (i.e. mode changes).

craig

UNSUBSCRIB ME RIGHT FUCKING NOW

[Nathan Overbey]

THAT'S IT, I HAVE HAD ENOUGH,

IN CASE YOUR DON'T REALIZE, I AM GETTING QUITE 
FUCKING PEAVEDAT THIS CONSTANT MASS MAILING, I 
DON'T KNOW WHO THE STUPID MOTHER FUCKER WHO SIGNED ME UP FOR THIS STUPID ASS 
NEWS GROUP, BUT I WANT OFF IT RIGHT FUCKING NOW.   

I HAVE DELT WITH THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT FOR A WHOL 
FUCKING MONTH NOW, I WANT MY EMAIL ACCOUNT BACK, NOW.

I WILL CONTINUE TO SEND THIS MESSAGE EVERY DAY THAT I 
GO TO USE MY E-MAIL AND HAVE TO DOWNLOAD 500 OTHER STUPID ASS MESSAGES AND SCAN 
THROU EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM IN ORDER TO READ MY MAIL ON A DAILY 
BAISIS.]

YES, I AM VERY PISSED OFF, AND IF YOU'VE GOT A 
FUCKING PROBLEM WITH IT, MAIL ME PERSONLY [EMAIL PROTECTED] , AND IF I MANAGE TO FIND 
YOUR MESSAGE, I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION!

Re: UNSUBSCRIB ME RIGHT FUCKING NOW

[trio]

THAT'S IT, I HAVE HAD ENOUGH,

IN CASE YOUR DON'T REALIZE, I AM GETTING QUITE 
FUCKING PEAVEDAT THIS CONSTANT MASS MAILING, I 
DON'T KNOW WHO THE STUPID MOTHER FUCKER WHO SIGNED ME UP FOR THIS STUPID ASS 
NEWS GROUP, BUT I WANT OFF IT RIGHT FUCKING NOW.   

I HAVE DELT WITH THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT FOR A WHOL 
FUCKING MONTH NOW, I WANT MY EMAIL ACCOUNT BACK, NOW.

I WILL CONTINUE TO SEND THIS MESSAGE EVERY DAY THAT I 
GO TO USE MY E-MAIL AND HAVE TO DOWNLOAD 500 OTHER STUPID ASS MESSAGES AND SCAN 
THROU EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM IN ORDER TO READ MY MAIL ON A DAILY 
BAISIS.]

YES, I AM VERY PISSED OFF, AND IF YOU'VE GOT A 
FUCKING PROBLEM WITH IT, MAIL ME PERSONLY [EMAIL PROTECTED] , AND IF I MANAGE TO FIND 
YOUR MESSAGE, I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION!

Re: UNSUBSCRIB ME RIGHT !@#$%^ NOW

[Pete Templin]

Debian Users,

I removed Nathan from the list, at his albeit loud and rude
request.  I've asked him to contact me if he had any further complaints.
I'd like to ask that we as a group not flame him, to prevent further
postings in a similar manner.  Hopefully, he'll quietly settle.

Thanks,

Pete

--
Pete Templin, Debian List Administrator  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

problem with guavac

[Ralf Comtesse]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Hi,

I just installed bo and it worked very well. Congratulations. There is
one minor problem, though. (the only one with over 50 MB of downloaded
files). I would like to install guavac and get the following message
during configuration:

Setting up guavac (0.2.6p1-1) ...
No `START-INFO-DIR-ENTRY' and no `This file documents'.
install-info: unable to determine description for `dir' entry - giving up


Any workarounds there?

Cheers Ralf



Ralf Comtesse Tel: +49-30-28599230 
Gipsstr. 15   Fax: +49-20-28599231
10119 Berlin
e-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
_
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Re: 'Sun Java WorkShop on Debian' experience anyone?

[Lawrence Chim]

Benedikt Eric Heinen wrote:
> 
> > jdk 1.0.2 with no problem, though I am not using it now.
> 
> Did you need to install any patches to make it run?
> SuSE delivered a modified classes.zip along with jws, claiming the
> original wouldn't work...
> 

no, but you need the linux port jws from blackburn.

-- 
Lawrence Chim   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"dselect" replacement project ("deity")

[Brian C. White]

It is my pleasure to announce the formation of the dselect replacement project,
code-named "deity".  The project will be made up of the following 7 people:


Project Leader:   Brian White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 - General organization, dispute resolution, final say on "capabilities"


  Chief Programmer:   Peter Iannarelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   - Code organization, task breakdown, final say on "code"

Mechanic(*):  Jason Gunthorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 - Low-level class and library design

Dpkg Consultant:  Tom Lees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 - Expert on compatibility with existing dpkg, dependency algorithms, etc.

Web Designer: Mark Constable <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 - Work on HTML and CGI interfaces


  Chief Designer: Behan Webster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
- Screen layout, ease of use, final say on "user interface"

Documentation:Che Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 - high & low level design docs, idea tracking, user manuals


(*) Someone who likes to work on low-level "engines".  (I get called this. :-)


A new list "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" has been created with these people
subscribed to it.  I'm sure I speak for the whole team when I say that we
would like to hear everybody's ideas for this new tool.  As the design
progresses, we will be presenting it back to the devel & user lists for
feedback.


About the people:

* Brian White has been working within the Debian project for about 2 years now
and is current the vice president of engineering.  He has 14 years of intense
software development and knows C and C++ very well.

* Peter Iannarelli is fairly new to Debian but is anxious to contribute.  He
has 13 years of experience with Unix and C, plus 7 years of C++.  He also has
a background in java, motif, and curses, along with strong design and
documentation skills.

* Jason Gunthorpe has 4 years of experience with C/C++ and enjoys working at
the class-level of designs.  He has already started working out how some of
the underlying problems can be solved efficiently.

* Tom Lees has experience with C/C++ and has spent time studying the existing
dpkg system.  He also has a background in text-mode user interfaces and sgml
documentation.

* Behan Webster has 14 years of experience with C programming and Unix, plus 5
years of C++.  He has worked extensively on user interfaces (mostly the
graphical kind) and has a good feel for what is intuitive and easy to use.

* Che Fox is a whiz at linuxdoc-sgml and will be managing the documentation.
He also has experience with Tk interfaces.

* Mark Constable has a good background in web/cgi interaction and will be
working to make that a viable interface.


  Brian
 ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )

---
 the difference between theory and practice is less in theory than in practice

I think I figured it out

[Nathan Overbey]

Hi Mike!

How does THIS look?

newbie nerd

[Seth Reinosa]

Lets say there was this guy building a 486 computer for a church intranet
and he wanted to run Linux.
Would he :
A)JUST LOAD LINUX OR:
B)LOAD DOS FIRST THEN LINUX
and
can a soldered CPU be unsoldered by a proand upgraded to lets say a 586 or
higher?
This guy has no clue what is going on.


<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Thanx
and may God Bless you
Seth R

RE: newbie nerd

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

I would just run Linux.  You could use DOS to originally get the install
disks.  If you already have them why not just use linux?

As far as the CPU.  The system isn't upgraded since there's more to a Pentium
than the CPU.  The CPU may be a Pentium but the board is still a 486.

On 12-Apr-97 Seth Reinosa wrote:
>Lets say there was this guy building a 486 computer for a church intranet
>and he wanted to run Linux.
>Would he :
>A)JUST LOAD LINUX OR:
>B)LOAD DOS FIRST THEN LINUX
>and
>can a soldered CPU be unsoldered by a proand upgraded to lets say a 586 or
>higher?
>This guy has no clue what is going on.
>
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Thanx
>and may God Bless you
>Seth R
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 11-Apr-97 
   Time: 23:08:08
- --

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root disk

[Hamish Moffatt]

What does the root disk do these days? When I first installed 1.1
you used the boot, then the root, then the base disks. Last night
I did a fresh 1.2.0 install from some mid-December disks;
the root disk was never used.

Some other things I did notice; they've probably been fixed but
I'll say them anyway just in case;

* If reading the drivers disk fails (mine was faulty),
  it won't ask you to do it again;

* The drivers list display was a bit corrupted; the module
  names did not appear for some modules until I moved over them, etc.
  Very strange.

(December disks, not necessarily the current ones.)


thanks,
Hamish

-- 
Hamish Moffatt, StudIEAust[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Student, computer science & computer systems engineering.3rd year, RMIT.
http://yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au/~moffatt (PGP key here) CPOM: [  ] 40%

Re: problem with guavac

[Jean Pierre LeJacq]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Ralf Comtesse wrote:

> Setting up guavac (0.2.6p1-1) ...
> No `START-INFO-DIR-ENTRY' and no `This file documents'.
> install-info: unable to determine description for `dir' entry - giving up
> 
> Any workarounds there?

This is telling you it failed to install the emacs info
file.  Only problem this should cause is that documentation
will not be available.

-- 
Jean Pierre

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Brian C. White wrote:

> A new list "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" has been created with these people
> subscribed to it.  I'm sure I speak for the whole team when I say that we

It seems the new list is not working quite correctly, I sent several
emails to it but recived nothing in reply :< I assume that like the normal
debian lists I should have received a copy of my message sent from the
list? Perhaps it's just been lagged for a few hours..

Just FYI,
Jason

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")

[Geoff R Deasey]

Ok here goes, I looked at the list of stuff available for debian and I 
thought I knew a thing or too about Linux until I ordered this debian 
cdrom.  I run an ISP and a Linux user group.  However I just cannot seem 
to get debian's dselect correctly.  I get through the conflict resolution 
and then after installing the packages I get more conflicts.  I think 
that there are several problems

1. The interface is a problem
   too complicated, I am having trouble (I have been running linux since 
pre 0.99.

2. Once the conflicts have been resolved, they should be resolved and 
should not come up again.

3. Do not through out the idea of haveing different modes, 
   1 for experts 2 for beginers etc. (at least kick it around)

4 A easier way to force an install that you know will not conflict.

5 Make it friendly to new people with less experience.  Even if you need 
to get the janitor to install it to see if it is too complicated.

I WANT TO MAKE THIS NEXT POINT VERY CLEAR

I am not trying to wine or complain, I realy think that these things need 
to be addressed.  Remember the last time you got bored with that nascar 
race on TV,  They go round and round the same time each lap, it was boring.

It takes a pro to make it look that easy!!

I want to thank everyone on the deity team in advance.  I wish I could be 
on it.  But I am not enough of an expert programmer yet.  

If more people give you input, the product you craft will be that much better
So come on people start talking !


On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Brian C. White wrote:

> It is my pleasure to announce the formation of the dselect replacement 
> project,
> code-named "deity".  The project will be made up of the following 7 people:

Re: newbie nerd

[Geoff R Deasey]

> Lets say there was this guy building a 486 computer for a church intranet
> and he wanted to run Linux.
> Would he :
> A)JUST LOAD LINUX OR:

What are you going to us this machine for ?

If you are going to use it for a web server for the intranet,
  just load linux.

If you have some other purpose in mind

  just load linux, unless you need to run some special dos apps
  investigate dosemu...

> can a soldered CPU be unsoldered by a proand upgraded to lets say a 586 or
> higher?
> This guy has no clue what is going on.

This is a bad idea.  The pentium chip needs a collection of support chips 
call a chip set and they are different than the 486 chip set.  There is also
the memory width problem.  The memory bus of the 486 is 32bit the pentium 
is 64.

Buy a new motherboard.

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer at this
point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install something
that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the selected
files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will address this
problem.  

On 12-Apr-97 Geoff R Deasey wrote:
>Ok here goes, I looked at the list of stuff available for debian and I 
>thought I knew a thing or too about Linux until I ordered this debian 
>cdrom.  I run an ISP and a Linux user group.  However I just cannot seem 
>to get debian's dselect correctly.  I get through the conflict resolution 
>and then after installing the packages I get more conflicts.  I think 
>that there are several problems
>
>1. The interface is a problem
>   too complicated, I am having trouble (I have been running linux since 
>pre 0.99.
>
>2. Once the conflicts have been resolved, they should be resolved and 
>should not come up again.
>
>3. Do not through out the idea of haveing different modes, 
>   1 for experts 2 for beginers etc. (at least kick it around)
>
>4 A easier way to force an install that you know will not conflict.
>
>5 Make it friendly to new people with less experience.  Even if you need 
>to get the janitor to install it to see if it is too complicated.
>
>I WANT TO MAKE THIS NEXT POINT VERY CLEAR
>
>I am not trying to wine or complain, I realy think that these things need 
>to be addressed.  Remember the last time you got bored with that nascar 
>race on TV,  They go round and round the same time each lap, it was boring.
>
>It takes a pro to make it look that easy!!
>
>I want to thank everyone on the deity team in advance.  I wish I could be 
>on it.  But I am not enough of an expert programmer yet.  
>
>If more people give you input, the product you craft will be that much better
>So come on people start talking !
>
>
>On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Brian C. White wrote:
>
>> It is my pleasure to announce the formation of the dselect replacement
project,
>> code-named "deity".  The project will be made up of the following 7 people:
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 00:12:16
- --

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Re: !!WARNING!! USR 33.6

[Bruce Perens]

Yes, stay away from Win-anything.
I already cover this in the installation document, excerpted below.

Thanks

Bruce

  Windows-specific Hardware
  
   A disturbing trend is the proliferation of "Windows" modems and
   printers. In some cases these are specially designed to be operated by
   the Microsoft Windows operating system and bear the legend "WinModem" or
   "Made expecially for Windows-based computers". This is generally done by
   removing the embedded processors of the hardware and shifting the work
   they do over to a Windows driver that is run by your computer's main
   CPU. This strategy makes the hardware less expensive, but the savings
   are often not passed on to the user and this hardware may even be more
   expensive than equivalent devices that retain their embedded
   intellegence.
   
   You should avoid Windows-specific hardware for two reasons. The first
   is that the manufacturers do not generally make the resources
   available to write a Linux driver. Generally, the hardware and
   software interface to the device is proprietary, and documentation is
   not available without a non-disclosure agreement, if it is available
   at all. This precludes its being used for free software, since free
   software writers disclose the source code of their programs. The
   second reason is that when devices like these have had their embedded
   processors removed, the operating system must perform the work of the
   embedded processors, often at real-time priority, and thus the CPU is
   not available to run your programs while it is driving these devices.
   Since the typical Windows user does not multi-process as intensively
   as a Linux user, the manufacturers hope that the Windows user simply
   won't notice the burden this hardware places on their CPU. However,
   any multi-processing operating system, even Windows 95 or NT, is
   degraded when peripheral manufacturers skimp on the embedded
   processing power of their hardware.
   
   You can help this situation by encouraging these manufacturers to
   release the documentation and other resources necessary for us to
   program their hardware, but the best strategy is simply to avoid this
   sort of hardware until it is listed as working in the Linux Hardware
   Compatibility HOWTO.
   
  Other Closed Hardware
  
   Some hardware manufacturers simply won't tell us how to write drivers
   for their hardware, or they won't allow us access to the documentation
   without a non-disclosure agreement that would prevent us from
   releasing the Linux source code. One example is the IBM laptop DSP
   sound system used in recent ThinkPad systems - some of these systems
   also couple the sound system to the modem. Since we haven't been
   granted access to the documentation on these devices, they simply
   won't work under Linux. You can help by asking the manufacturers of
   such hardware to release the documentation. If enough people ask, they
   will realize that Linux is an important market. The Linux Hardware
   Compatibility HOWTO provides information about what devices currently
   have Linux drivers.
   

-- 
Bruce Perens K6BP   [EMAIL PROTECTED]   510-215-3502
Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP public key.
PGP fingerprint = 88 6A 15 D0 65 D4 A3 A6  1F 89 6A 76 95 24 87 B3 

Re: bi

[Richard Sharman]

Jason Costomiris writes:
 > On 11 Apr 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > 
 > > > THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
 > > 
 > > Teco.
 > 
 > Bwah.  Real men edit with cat, sed, awk, head and tail.  Better yet, they
 > write directly to the disk with a hex sector editor.
 > 


sed, head AND tail?   Isn't that a bit extravagent?
head -4 f==   sed 4q f

Actually, if you have awk I don't think you need sed.


Here's head and tail with awk



Head() {
awk "(NR > $1) {exit} {print}" $2
}

Tail() {
n=`wc -l $2 | awk "{print \\$1 - $1}"`
awk "( NR < $n ) {next} {print}" $2
}

The syntax is a little different,  use Head 4 f  instead of head -4 f


% Head 4 f
line 1
line 2
line 3
line 4
% Tail 4 f
line 6
line 7
line 8
line 9
line 10
% 

If you have tac,  tail is much easier:

% tac f | Head 4 - | tac
line 7
line 8
line 9
line 10
% 

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Leslie Mikesell]

> Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer at this
> point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install something
> that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the selected
> files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will address this
> problem.  

Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install.  They
prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together
and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items.
It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution
but most people have better things to do.  These days you probably
can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete
installation. 

Les Mikesell
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Why not just echo > text.file and echo >> text.file??

Or maybe use this to write a small C program that will write the text file?

Just kidding.  I know all these things play important roles.  I just don't
believe in buying a convertible and never putting the top down or buying a
Corvett and driving it at half the speed limit all the time.

I guess the years I spent in M.I. using the line editors on the unix systems
we used broke me.  When they finally put a full screen editor in I was born
again.

Anyway.  To each his own.

On 12-Apr-97 Richard Sharman wrote:
>Jason Costomiris writes:
> > On 11 Apr 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > > THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
> > > 
> > > Teco.
> > 
> > Bwah.  Real men edit with cat, sed, awk, head and tail.  Better yet, they
> > write directly to the disk with a hex sector editor.
> > 
>
>
>sed, head AND tail?   Isn't that a bit extravagent?
>head -4 f==   sed 4q f
>
>Actually, if you have awk I don't think you need sed.
>
>
>Here's head and tail with awk
>
>
>
>Head() {
>   awk "(NR > $1) {exit} {print}" $2
>}
>
>Tail() {
>   n=`wc -l $2 | awk "{print \\$1 - $1}"`
>   awk "( NR < $n ) {next} {print}" $2
>}
>
>The syntax is a little different,  use Head 4 f  instead of head -4 f
>
>
>% Head 4 f
>line 1
>line 2
>line 3
>line 4
>% Tail 4 f
>line 6
>line 7
>line 8
>line 9
>line 10
>% 
>
>If you have tac,  tail is much easier:
>
>% tac f | Head 4 - | tac
>line 7
>line 8
>line 9
>line 10
>% 
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 01:01:39
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Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote:

> > Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer at 
> > this
> > point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install 
> > something
> > that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the selected
> > files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will address 
> > this
> > problem.  
> 
> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install.  They
> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together
> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items.
> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution
> but most people have better things to do.  These days you probably
> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete
> installation. 

Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an
ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually.

If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to
correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then
please tell me now!

Thanks,
Jason

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

You have to take the good with the bad.  It would be nice to have a perfect
linux distribution but it will never happen.  I think all in all Debian is
doing a super job.  They're on top of things for the most part.  If it's
broke they'll fix it PDQ.  Once they know about it.

I'm bad about informing about bugs.  If I can fix it myself I usually never
report it.  I guess I should.

You can install groups in dselect also.  Just select the line that describes
the group and mark it for install or hold.  Generally the normal install is
already marked for install.

On 12-Apr-97 Leslie Mikesell wrote:
>> Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer at
this
>> point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install
something
>> that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the selected
>> files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will address
this
>> problem.  
>
>Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install.  They
>prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together
>and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items.
>It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution
>but most people have better things to do.  These days you probably
>can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete
>installation. 
>
>Les Mikesell
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 01:10:55
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Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Sorry.  I should have been specific.  I was talking about the ftp install and
assumed he was too.

On 12-Apr-97 Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote:
>
>> > Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer at
this
>> > point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install
something
>> > that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the selected
>> > files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will address
this
>> > problem.  
>> 
>> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install.  They
>> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together
>> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items.
>> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution
>> but most people have better things to do.  These days you probably
>> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete
>> installation. 
>
>Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an
>ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually.
>
>If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to
>correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then
>please tell me now!
>
>Thanks,
>Jason
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 01:13:05
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New Debian i386 Packages

[Paul Serice]

Was a "New Debian i386 Packages" posted this week on the
debian-changes mailing list?


Paul

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Geoff R Deasey]

The comments about having to run configure over and over, does this apply 
to the cdrom as well ?  I have a T! at work, so if there is another way 
to install that would be better let me know.

--Jeff

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> Sorry.  I should have been specific.  I was talking about the ftp install and
> assumed he was too.
> 
> On 12-Apr-97 Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote:
> >
> >> > Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer at
> this
> >> > point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install
> something
> >> > that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the selected
> >> > files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will address
> this
> >> > problem.  
> >> 
> >> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install.  They
> >> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together
> >> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items.
> >> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution
> >> but most people have better things to do.  These days you probably
> >> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete
> >> installation. 
> >
> >Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an
> >ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually.
> >
> >If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to
> >correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then
> >please tell me now!
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Jason
> >
> Have a good one.
> 
> - --
> Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> 
> Date: 12-Apr-97   
>  Time: 01:13:05
> - --
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> 

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

I think it was one of the Debian gurus that just sent an email stating that
it was only the ftp install that had this bug.  He'll most likely send you an
email on this but in case he doesn't get to it for a while I'll say that he
did say it worked fine in the CD install.

On 12-Apr-97 Geoff R Deasey wrote:
>The comments about having to run configure over and over, does this apply 
>to the cdrom as well ?  I have a T! at work, so if there is another way 
>to install that would be better let me know.
>
>--Jeff
>
>On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> 
>> Sorry.  I should have been specific.  I was talking about the ftp install
and
>> assumed he was too.
>> 
>> On 12-Apr-97 Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
>> >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote:
>> >
>> >> > Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer
at
>> this
>> >> > point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install
>> something
>> >> > that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the
selected
>> >> > files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will
address
>> this
>> >> > problem.  
>> >> 
>> >> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install.  They
>> >> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together
>> >> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items.
>> >> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution
>> >> but most people have better things to do.  These days you probably
>> >> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete
>> >> installation. 
>> >
>> >Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an
>> >ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually.
>> >
>> >If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to
>> >correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then
>> >please tell me now!
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Jason
>> >
>> Have a good one.
>> 
>> - --
>> Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> 
>> Date: 12-Apr-97   
Time: 01:13:0
5
>> - --
>> 
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>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 01:35:55
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Re: dselect

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

I'm not aware of a unhold command but that's the idea.  But I used hold more
than once since it didn't put everything on hold for some reason.  So the
status has 2 layers of hold and I can't revert to the previous state since
it's the same for the most part.  

I can always go file by file and mark them for install but I want to know if
there's a command to clear everything so I can update the lists and go from
there WITHOUT clearing the info on installed pkgs.

Example:

I just installed base and want to do an ftp install.  I go get the rex pkgs
list and update.  I realise that I wanted bo instead so I go back around and
change to bo.  The rex status is still in place marked for install.  How do I
clear the pkg list to show only what I want?

This isn't a very good example.  It's just off the top of my head.

When I try to install after deleting a directory from the ftp list that was
updated it will still try to get the files from the dir I removed from the
ftp list.

I hope that makes sense to you.  It's almost 2am here and I'm getting punchy.

On 11-Apr-97 Christian Hudon wrote:
>On Apr 11, Rick wrote
>> 
>> I sent this a few days ago but got no answer.
>> 
>> Does anybody know how to clear dselect status?  I used hold to select only
>> the bo pkgs I wanted to install thinking I could reset the suggested
status. 
>> But it don't work.  How do I reset the pkgs to the suggested state?  I
tried
>> renaming the status files but dselect just crashed.
>
>Huh? Do you mean 'Unhold' doesn't work? It certainly works for me.
>
>If you really want to do it using dpkg, have a look at '--set-selections'
>Safer than playing with the status file directly.
>
>  Christian
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 01:45:52
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pgpo03ewgBwb9.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> I think it was one of the Debian gurus that just sent an email stating that
> it was only the ftp install that had this bug.  He'll most likely send you an
> email on this but in case he doesn't get to it for a while I'll say that he
> did say it worked fine in the CD install.

Okay lets be clear here I know for certain:
  1) FTP does NOT dependacny correctly
  2) The disk install has code designed to correct this
  3) Some poster in some far off land said it worked right
  4) I buy it, cause it looks sound.
  5) If -ANYONE- has had a dependancy problem installing from 1.2 or 1.3
 off a cdrom then please tell me an I will try to have an alternet 
 solution.
  6) I filed a bug against dpkg-ftp to include the code in 2).

My copy of 1.2 on both my machines has this fix for cdrom installations,
so I think it should be in most 1.2 copies?

So there we have it.

I hope this steams off any strange rumors!

Jason

Re: dselect

[George Bonser]

Just a short suggestion:

Split dselect.  A small one (dinstall?) just for installation and a more
full-featured one for configuration management.




I am giving .sigs a break this month

George Bonser
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: bi

[Jason Costomiris]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> I do search and replace in Xemacs all the time.  I'm fairly sure that regular
> emacs will do it too.

I never said the various emacsen couldn't do it.  I find emacs very
confusing.  47 bazillion different "modes" to do everything, a googleplex
of command key sequences, and sucks RAM like it's going out of style.
Sounds like something straight out of Redmond.  Even the modes lack a
redeeming quality, being written in LISP a language that uses more
parentheses than actual code.

> Why go back to a command shell editor when I can use a GUI editor?

You want a GUI so bad?  gvim.

> vi had it's time.  Time to move on.  There are better editors now.

Better for who?  I like vi.  Who are you to tell me that I can't use my
favorite editor?  I even have a copy of vim on my PowerBook.

Jason Costomiris | Finger for PGP 2.6.2 Public Key
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | "There is a fine line between idiocy
My employers like me, but not| and genius.  We aim to erase that line"
enough to let me speak for them. |  --Unknown

http://www.jasons.org/~jcostom

Re: dselect

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, George Bonser wrote:

> 
> Just a short suggestion:
> 
> Split dselect.  A small one (dinstall?) just for installation and a more
> full-featured one for configuration management.

Okay I will bite, Why?

If you have a small dselect then the first thing to be installed would be
the larger dselect.

Now perhaps two different programs with different roles would be a good
idea, but what would they be more specificaly? 

Here is an idea that seems to have been hinted at indirectly by a number
of posts and that is a configuration aide for newbies. It would present
them with a list of packages and tell them were the config files are and
direct them to the /usr/doc/package files, etc.. I donno.

Jason

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")

[Leslie Mikesell]

> You have to take the good with the bad.

Why?

> It would be nice to have a perfect
> linux distribution but it will never happen. 

In that case it seems like the world would be a nicer place if
you could mix-n-match things from different distributions easily.
Unfortunately it isn't all that easy.  I'd like to have a system
where everything knows about shadow passwords, the ndbm emulation
uses gdbm, and a one-disk nfs installation works the first time.

> You can install groups in dselect also.  Just select the line that describes
> the group and mark it for install or hold.  Generally the normal install is
> already marked for install.

I tried several times (over NFS) and it never completed.  That was
probably a month ago - perhaps it is fixed now, but I have RedHat
loaded.  I'll try again on the next machine if shadow support is
available by then.  What I'd really like is the ability to load
.deb's into a redhat or slackware base.

Les Mikesell
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: dselect

[George Bonser]

The smaller version would have an easier interface, some packages
pre-selected and less chances to get one in trouble at the expense
of having a smaller subset of things to choose from. After it gets
the basics installed (required packages). Then it would launch the
more full-featured version that has NOTHING preselected and does
NOT reselect the same packages that you had selected the last time
that you ran it.


On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, George Bonser wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Just a short suggestion:
> > 
> > Split dselect.  A small one (dinstall?) just for installation and a more
> > full-featured one for configuration management.
> 
> Okay I will bite, Why?
> 
> If you have a small dselect then the first thing to be installed would be
> the larger dselect.
> 
> Now perhaps two different programs with different roles would be a good
> idea, but what would they be more specificaly? 
> 
> Here is an idea that seems to have been hinted at indirectly by a number
> of posts and that is a configuration aide for newbies. It would present
> them with a list of packages and tell them were the config files are and
> direct them to the /usr/doc/package files, etc.. I donno.
> 
> Jason
> 
> 

I am giving .sigs a break this month

George Bonser
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: dselect

[George Bonser]

On second thought, since the required packages are really just a
continuation of base that is too large to fit on floppies, there really
does not need to be a menu for that part of the install at all.  Base
would install then once it is in place, it asks where you want to continue
the installation from (cdrom, partition, ftp, etc) then starts loading the
required packages (assuming a clean install here). No dependancies to
worry about here.  Once THAT part is complete, the menu-driven dselect is
started with NOTHING pre-selected (and it remembers no selections when you
exit).


On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, George Bonser wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Just a short suggestion:
> > 
> > Split dselect.  A small one (dinstall?) just for installation and a more
> > full-featured one for configuration management.
> 
> Okay I will bite, Why?
> 
> If you have a small dselect then the first thing to be installed would be
> the larger dselect.
> 
> Now perhaps two different programs with different roles would be a good
> idea, but what would they be more specificaly? 
> 
> Here is an idea that seems to have been hinted at indirectly by a number
> of posts and that is a configuration aide for newbies. It would present
> them with a list of packages and tell them were the config files are and
> direct them to the /usr/doc/package files, etc.. I donno.
> 
> Jason
> 
> 

I am giving .sigs a break this month

George Bonser
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-


On 12-Apr-97 Jason Costomiris wrote:
>I never said the various emacsen couldn't do it.  I find emacs very
>confusing.  47 bazillion different "modes" to do everything, a googleplex
>of command key sequences, and sucks RAM like it's going out of style.
>Sounds like something straight out of Redmond.  Even the modes lack a
>redeeming quality, being written in LISP a language that uses more
>parentheses than actual code.
>
>> Why go back to a command shell editor when I can use a GUI editor?
>
>You want a GUI so bad?  gvim.
>
>> vi had it's time.  Time to move on.  There are better editors now.
>
>Better for who?  I like vi.  Who are you to tell me that I can't use my
>favorite editor?  I even have a copy of vim on my PowerBook.

Sorry.  I was watching these vi msgs go back and forth and had to jump in and
make it worse.  I think everyone should use whatever they want to.  I agree
100% about emacs.  I have better things to do than to memorize all that crap.
 That's why I use the GUI version, menu's.

After seeing remarks like - tell them to use jove, if they can't handle it
give 'em a pencil and eraser.  I wanted to jump in.  vi-hards try to make
those that won't use it look like less than they are or something.  A persons
choice of editors has nothing to do with what they can do on a *nix system.

I think the original reason for this endless thread was to discuss the best
editor for a base install.  One of the points I tried to get across is that a
newbie won't be able to use any editor that isn't either similar to an M$
editor (not edlin) or that doesn't have a menu of some kind, such as ae.

Anyway.  Sorry for raising your blood pressure.

Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 02:37:47
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X-Windows

[Tim O'Brien]

I really would like to learn a lot more about the X-Windows system. I
already have it up and running on my computer, so I have something to mess with.

What I'm trying to do is get to where I can use X to get some actual work
done. Right now, as much as I hate to say so, all I can get X to do is nifty
parlor tricks. 

Does anybody have any suggestions of some good books on this? Preferably
books about X on Linux? Because at this point, all it seems I can learn
about X is how little I really know about it.

Thanks!
Tim O'Brien

-
LINUX 2.0.8 i486 Because reboots are for upgrades!!
-
Please direct Email to: tjobrien(at)traveller.com

Re: dselect

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-


On 12-Apr-97 George Bonser wrote:
>
>On second thought, since the required packages are really just a
>continuation of base that is too large to fit on floppies, there really
>does not need to be a menu for that part of the install at all.  Base
>would install then once it is in place, it asks where you want to continue
>the installation from (cdrom, partition, ftp, etc) then starts loading the
>required packages (assuming a clean install here). No dependancies to
>worry about here.  Once THAT part is complete, the menu-driven dselect is
>started with NOTHING pre-selected (and it remembers no selections when you
>exit).

Actually there are depends.  The pkgs still have to get installed in a
certain order since some of them depend on others to operate.  But I see your
point there.

I think it's a good idea to maybe have the choice to keep or loose the
selections at exit, or startup, and have an option to select the recomended
pkgs at any time.

Maybe create another directory called .../binary-i386/req'd-1.2 or 1.3 etc...
so it's possible to use a lesser, compatable, install disk set but select the
req'd directory of the version you want to install.

Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 02:50:56
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RE: X-Windows

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

I don't know any bookstore books but you can read the FAQ's/HOW-TO's.  If you
don't have them try www.linux.org or www.x.org.

You can try fvwm95 or Afterstep for a Window manager.  There are others. 
These are the ones I think are well done. afterstep.edoc.com for the new
version.

On 12-Apr-97 Tim O'Brien wrote:
>I really would like to learn a lot more about the X-Windows system. I
>already have it up and running on my computer, so I have something to mess
with.
>
>What I'm trying to do is get to where I can use X to get some actual work
>done. Right now, as much as I hate to say so, all I can get X to do is nifty
>parlor tricks. 
>
>Does anybody have any suggestions of some good books on this? Preferably
>books about X on Linux? Because at this point, all it seems I can learn
>about X is how little I really know about it.
>
>Thanks!
>Tim O'Brien
>
>-
>LINUX 2.0.8 i486 Because reboots are for upgrades!!
>-
>Please direct Email to: tjobrien(at)traveller.com
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 02:58:35
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Re: dselect

[George Bonser]

My harping about remembering selections has to do with selecting to
upgrade something that requires a reboot to take effect or messes the
system up until it IS rebooted. Then not running dselect again for a month
and in the meantime, a newer version of this is uploaded to the FTP site.
You run dselect, forget that you had selected some obscure package that is
quite large or requires reboot, select a bunch of docs, walk away while it
is downloading come back to find that you need to reboot a network server
and knock a bunch of folks "off the air" for a few minutes.



I am giving .sigs a break this month

George Bonser
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

x-windows manager

[A. M. Varon]

hi to all,

anyone interested to debianize mlvwm (x-win manager that looks like a
mac.)? And... how do you become a maintainer? qualifacations?


 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Andre M. Varon Lasaltech, Incorported
 Technical Head Fax-Tel: (034)433-3520
 e-mail  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 web page: http://www.lasaltech.com/andre.html
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Re: dselect

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Hahaha...I know exactly what you mean.  That's part of the problem I have
now.  I used the hold command to put a stop to that and now have to select
file by file to upgrade since nobody seems to know how to clear the status in
dselect.

On 12-Apr-97 George Bonser wrote:
>
>My harping about remembering selections has to do with selecting to
>upgrade something that requires a reboot to take effect or messes the
>system up until it IS rebooted. Then not running dselect again for a month
>and in the meantime, a newer version of this is uploaded to the FTP site.
>You run dselect, forget that you had selected some obscure package that is
>quite large or requires reboot, select a bunch of docs, walk away while it
>is downloading come back to find that you need to reboot a network server
>and knock a bunch of folks "off the air" for a few minutes.
>
>
>
>I am giving .sigs a break this month
>
>George Bonser
>[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 03:09:56
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Re: X-Windows

[Rob Browning]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim O'Brien) writes:

> What I'm trying to do is get to where I can use X to get some actual work
> done. Right now, as much as I hate to say so, all I can get X to do is nifty
> parlor tricks. 

What were you interested in learning?  Programming X, or user
configuration details?

-- 
Rob

RE: x-windows manager

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Where's it at?  I'll give it a look.  I'm using Afterstep 1.0pre6 right now.

On 12-Apr-97 A. M. Varon wrote:
>hi to all,
>
>anyone interested to debianize mlvwm (x-win manager that looks like a
>mac.)? And... how do you become a maintainer? qualifacations?


Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 03:17:25
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problem with base disks

[Mart Klanberg]

Hi,

When choosing /dev/fd0 to install base system (after successfully
initializing all partitions) install script doesn't seem to give
'/dev/fd0' as parameter to floppy_merge (error message about correct
usage of floppy_merge and another about not being able to extract base
system files from '.'

Distribution is the current unstable one.
Only problem from hardware side that I can think of is L2 cache that
seems to be faulty (disabled from BIOS, is it enough?).
No, it's not Cyrix processor, it's AMD 486 100, overclocked, but has no
problems with overheating.
other: vesa mb, vesa i/o/ide controller.

On the same computer there's FreeBSD running just fine.
Also, I have installed Deb 1.1.4 (or smth) several times with no problems.

Or, if problem is unknown, how can I get the base system from another fs
(the 'prev. mounted fs'), is it the bo/binary/base/* that it needs? (I
tar'ed it to dos partition, and copied to /target/bleh/* ... giving him
/target/bleh/ as the directory of base packets caused script to give some
seg.faults or just to restart from beginning)

Can't think of anymore useful information ;)

Mart Klanberg,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Question on install

[Lindsay Allen]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Nils Rennebarth wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Alexander Koch wrote:
> >My problem is that I take the resc1440.bin and write it to disc (with dd)
> >and when it comes to boot it just does nothing and the mbr of /dev/sda
> >(lilo) is taken.
> According to your further mails, BIOS settings try the floppy first.
> Was the floppy written ok?
> 
> Try
>md5sum < /dev/fd0
> after you made the floppy with dd if=resc1440 of=/dev/fd0 bs=10240
> and compare that to
>md5sum resc1440.bin
> and check that all match the one in md5sums.txt

This works with images that fill the floppy, though sometimes I have to
remove the floppy and reinsert it first.   Is there a way of checking
an image like "linux" that is only ~600k?

My experience with the current crop of floppies is that this step is near
essential.  My failure rate would be approx 50%.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lindsay Allen   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Perth, Western Australia
voice +61 9 316 2486modem +61 9 364-9832
http:  Real soon now.   debian linux
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

RE: x-windows manager

[A. M. Varon]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> Where's it at?  I'll give it a look.  I'm using Afterstep 1.0pre6 right now.
> 
> >anyone interested to debianize mlvwm (x-win manager that looks like a
> >mac.)? And... how do you become a maintainer? qualifacations?

The mlvwm can be found at this web address: 

http://www.bioele.nuee.nagoya-u.ac.jp/member/tak/mlvwm.html

I'm also using Afterstep 1.0pre6, way too cool... :)



 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Andre M. Varon Lasaltech, Incorported
 Technical Head Fax-Tel: (034)433-3520
 e-mail  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 web page: http://www.lasaltech.com/andre.html
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Dependency ordering

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,

I have just finished the next version of the package ordering
 libraries/tool which shall be uploaded tonight to master -- I think I
 have caught most of the design issues rasied on the lists (I am
 including the spec below).

I am also including the output of a test ordering run
 below. Any comments, criticisms are welcome.

manoj
=
sample output:

START
wdiff
tetexdoc
tetexlib
tetex
svgalib1
spellprogs
sp
rpncalc
rcs
picon-weather
picon-users
picon-unknown
picon-misc
picon-domains
netstd
metamail
mbr
lilo
dwww
dpkg
dpkg-dev
debmake
bug
bsdutils
svgalib1-dev
END
=

Requirements


* The package should write out an order to install new packages

* The package should be able to detect dependency loops in the new
  package list.

* The package should be able to work stand alone, however, it should
  provide libraries so that the dependency checks and topological
  sorts on new packages are available to other scripts/programs as
  well. (like dftp, auto build a whole distribution from scratch,
  other dependency checkers).

* The package should be a user interface only, all functionality
  should be wrapped into the libraries so that alternate user
  interfaces would be easy (using ncurses, perltk, dialog, CGI, etc
  one can have multiple front ends).

* The package should make no assumptions about the fields in the
  package description, except possibly fields that it needs for
  operation (Package, Status, Pre-Depends, Depends, Recommends,
  Suggests, Conflicts, and Replaces).

* The package should also be able to do dependency satisfaction checks
  on other relationship fields in the package (Recommends, and
  Suggests) as well, if asked by the user.

* The package should use dpkg and friends to do version checks rather
  than hard coding it internally -- (in case things change, like the
  recent introduction of epochs).

* The package should be able to read installed packages from
  /var/lib/dpkg/status -- or one or more files in the same format
  supplied by the user (*must* have the status field)

* The libraries must support incremental construction of both the New
  and Installed package lists. 

* The package (or at least the libraries underneath) should provide an
  easy means of adding/deleting packages to the list of packages to be
  installed. 

* This package should do nothing else than produce an ordering list
  (apart from error messages about failed dependency checks, and
  information asked by the user). It should not modify anything, apart
  from maybe temp files in /tmp.

* The package should be flexible about handling anomalies (a failed
  dependency check could cause the process to stop, or the package
  that failed the dependency (or conflict) to be marked as failed, and
  ignored from further processing, and a ordering generated for the
  rest of the packages.

* The package should offer configurable levels of verbosity and debug
  messages. 

* The package should keep track of which package provided a virtual
  package and use that in dependency ordering.

* The package should be aware of virtual packages.

Nice qualities of the current implementation:
 - -- --- --- --
* One should be able to run it as a ordering tool, a dependency
  checker, or both.

* One may pass in the installed files as a comma separated list to the
  application, but if you roll your own application, using the library, you
  could process the installed files one by one, marking failed new
  packages on each run. Finally, one could just run the ordering pass
  on the packages that survive (you could do this in one fell swoop,
  if you wish, as well, as the code is written).

Inputs:
--

* The new packages list  -- the packages to be installed.
* The list of installed packages -- the packages on the system
* The virtual packages list 

The current implementation of the ordering tool reads the new
 packages list from a Package file given on the command line, and the
 installed packages list from /var/lib/dpkg/status (ignoring packages
 in status that are not installed OK), and uses the built in list of
 virtual packages, unless given an alternative on the command
 line. Also there an option of specifying a comma separated list of
 Package files as installed packages, or another option to specify a
 comma separated list of status files.

The underlying Library supports adding packages to the list
 one at a time (we split up the Packages file internally anyway), by
 supplying a string containing the output of dpkg --info or dpkg
 -s. In fact the test method supplies a made up package info string to
 add a package for a test.

Process: 
---
In the checking dependency phase, for each package in
 the new packages list, we look at the dependencies, and ensure t

Re: Multiple ISP setup

[silvio]

The method I use to do this is to create a directory with
multiple configurations stored, and then use a program to
copy the requested config to the current config.

the program multiconfig is used like this.. (rocknet is the
isp name)

# multiconfig /etc/pon/rocknet

which just recurses the directy and copies it to the hiearchy with the
initial directy pathname removed..

umm.. maybe an example is will be more clear

# multiconfig /etc/pon/rocknet

/etc/pon/rocknet/etc/hosts copies to /etc/hosts

so pon only needs to do something like multiconfig /etc/pon/$SETUP
where $SETUP is $1 or /etc/pon/default if no argument is specified.

to connect to the isp "rocknet" i use

# pon rocknet

or simply

# pon

which defaults to /etc/pon/default which is just a sym link to rocknet

poff then does a 

# multiconfig /etc/pon/local

currently /etc/pon/local is manually created, however if there is any
interest into this method of handling ppp, then i'll change it to
save the origianl config here automatically and then use something
like multiconfig --restor/multiconfig -r. (works great currently
for something I quickly hacked up)

a lock file is created showing on pon startup, so if the pc gets
reset or something else happens, I know what the current
configuration is.. so just modify rc.boot to handle this and you'll
be fine..

i'll send the source and pon/poff changes if requested. typically
something like this should be expected in the ppp package..

ANyway, this works great, and provides a clean way for multiple
ppp setups including selected changes to config file, ie no
more script changes to ip-up/ip-down if you want to change your
/etc/hosts for ppp or whatever..


Silvio Cesare

Re: Dependency ordering

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On 12 Apr 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> Hi,
> 
>   I have just finished the next version of the package ordering
>  libraries/tool which shall be uploaded tonight to master -- I think I
>  have caught most of the design issues rasied on the lists (I am
>  including the spec below).

Hm, I think we need to talk :> It's late so I will be brief.

What you have created is related, almost duplicating the functionality
that the dpkg-lib library that we (the Deity team) is developing. Actually
your application is the reason we want to create dpkg-lib, so ppl can make
things like you did. Anyhow, with your package it looks like we have 4
implementations of the base functions of dpkg-lib. Joy. 

So at some point in the future we should combine the two packages, merging
your ordering code with our code. I do not know when we will be done, but
just so you know what we are trying to do.

I have saved your letter and will look at it in more detail in the
morning.

Jason

Re: Dependency ordering

[Martin Schulze]

On Apr 12, Jason Gunthorpe wrote

> > I have just finished the next version of the package ordering
> >  libraries/tool which shall be uploaded tonight to master -- I think I
> >  have caught most of the design issues rasied on the lists (I am
> >  including the spec below).
> 
> Hm, I think we need to talk :> It's late so I will be brief.
> 
> What you have created is related, almost duplicating the functionality
> that the dpkg-lib library that we (the Deity team) is developing. Actually
> your application is the reason we want to create dpkg-lib, so ppl can make
> things like you did. Anyhow, with your package it looks like we have 4
> implementations of the base functions of dpkg-lib. Joy. 

Could you include Manoj in your team if he likes too?  He's a keen
programmer afaik.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
  / Martin Schulze * Debian GNU/Linux Developer * [EMAIL PROTECTED] /
 / http://www.debian.org/  http://home.pages.de/~joey/

Re: bi

[Carey Evans]

Ralph Winslow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > Teco.
> > 
> When you've said teco, you've said it all!  vi is superb, and emacs (for
> those who've spent the weeks required to master it) is way cool, but
> teco RULES!!!  Anybody out there have the source for the greatest text
> editor cum programming language in the known universe??

ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/apps/editors/tty/teco.tar.gz>

-- 
Carey Evans  <*>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 "Double, double, toil and trouble, /
   Fire burn and cauldron bubble."

Re: Multiple ISP setup

[Chow Chi-Ming]

Dear all,

Thanks for those who responded.  It seems that one may use the tools
xisp (available as a debian package), ezppp
(http://www.serv.net/~cameron/ezppp/index.html) or Linuxconf for easy
switching of ISP.  But does Linuxconf work in harmony with Debian?

Regards,
-- 
Billy C.-M. Chow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Department of Systems Engineering   
The Chinese University of Hong Kong

Re: newbie nerd

[Ralph Winslow]

Seth Reinosa wrote:
> 
> Lets say there was this guy building a 486 computer for a church intranet
> and he wanted to run Linux.
> Would he :
> A)JUST LOAD LINUX OR:

If he already has his Debian Install boot, Ramdisk, and 3 base install
diskettes, he could just start offf with loading Debian linux.

> B)LOAD DOS FIRST THEN LINUX
> and
> can a soldered CPU be unsoldered by a pro and upgraded to lets say a 586 or
> higher?

I'd say the chances of success at this would be slim to zip, but YMMV,
of course.  For less the $1000 you could have a real nice 100-120 MHz
2Gb HD 32Mb RAM sytem with CD, nice Video and sound cards.  Why risk the
usable 486?

> This guy has no clue what is going on.
> 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> Thanx
> and may God Bless you
> Seth R

Re: Multiple ISP setup

[Witold Kulinski]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Chow Chi-Ming wrote:

> Just wonder what is a good ppp dial-up setup for multiple ISPs.  I
> want to be able to choose which ISP to dial up easily (read: without
> having to edit /etc files manually each time I have to switch).
> 
> Is there a tool for this? 

I can dial up multiple ISPs very easy using linuxconf - an interactive 
configuration and activation utility which allows to configure 
the following topics:

  o  Networking (client)
  o  Basic TCP/IP setup
  o  Routing
  o  DNS location
  o  NIS client
  o  IPX (novell) setup
  o  PPP and SLIP dialout  <<< !
  o  Networking (server)
  o  Boot services: RARP and DHCP
  o  DNS
  o  IP Aliasing
  o  NFS
  o  Mail
  o  Uucp
  o  X11
  o  User account
  o  File systems (partitions)
  o  Boot mode
  o  LILO
  o  Boot runlevel

  One key difference between Linuxconf and other configuration utility
  is that Linuxconf take care of the activation.

  Linuxconf may be used as a command line utility. 

Command line options:

 netconf --connect 

  allow you to establish a PPP connection using the  
  specification. 
  
 netconf --disconnect 

  terminate a PPP connection.

= , ... etc.

-
for more details see http://www.solucorp.qc.ca/linuxconf

Regards,

--
Witold Kulinski
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Dependency ordering

[Paul Wade]

It is apparent to me that Manoj has stepped into some sort of time warp
here and come back to the present with a good vision of the future. I
think we all should study his work carefully. Many of the points contained
therein lead me to believe he has gone psychic on us. Do I need to wear a
metallic helmet to keep him from reading my mind? 

Here's a good example:

Lately, I have been using mc (Midnight Commander) to cruise through my
debian mirror. I can position on a single .deb file or tag multiple files.
Then I hit F2 followed by @ (do something with the selected file(s)) and
enter the command:

dpkg -i (install it)

or

dpkg -iGOEB (same as dselect install without recursing the entire world)

Manoj is outlining a specification that would be great for the above
method. Standardized components could be tied into mc and similar
interfaces easily. I would love to be able to hit the F3 (view) key in mc
on a .deb file and get a nice summary of control info and status. Then hit
the F4 (edit) or other appropriate key and get an option menu (remove,
force, upgrade, ) and act on it.

We definitely need a new dselect, but providing a way to handle packages
from existing shells, file managers, etc. would solve a lot of the interim
problems.

On 12 Apr 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> * The package should be able to work stand alone, however, it should
>   provide libraries so that the dependency checks and topological
>   sorts on new packages are available to other scripts/programs as
>   well. (like dftp, auto build a whole distribution from scratch,
>   other dependency checkers).

Yes, so I can add an ftp interface that only gets needed files, adds
them to the "mirror" directory and preserves original file date/time. It
would first check CD index files and prompt for CD mounting. Sort of a
combination automount/mirror/installer daemon? Go to other mirrors if
necessary. First get higher priority files. Get other files without
hogging resources/bandwidth. Don't bother with files of no interest at all
(for many:all those other xservers, programming languages, etc.) 
 
> * The package should be a user interface only, all functionality
>   should be wrapped into the libraries so that alternate user
>   interfaces would be easy (using ncurses, perltk, dialog, CGI, etc
>   one can have multiple front ends).

Yes! Yes! Yes! Most newbies are comfortable with a web browser. Give them
an installer script to get the web server, browser, etc., installed and
they will be overjoyed.

> * The package should also be able to do dependency satisfaction checks
>   on other relationship fields in the package (Recommends, and
>   Suggests) as well, if asked by the user.

Another area where HTML/CGI would shine.

Note: I think a Perl5 module should be developed concurrently with this.
It would provide a method for testing the library with various user 
interfaces during the development. First make it work correctly and then
make it faster.

+--+
+ Paul Wade Greenbush Technologies Corporation +
+ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.greenbush.com/ +
+--+
+ http://www.wtop.com/What does W.T.O.P. mean? +
+--+

1.2.4 list of known problems

[Nicola Bernardelli]

 I'm new to Debian. I've been waiting for one month to receive the
1.2.4 CD from Cheap Bytes (sent March 3rd arrived April 4th) and I'm
trying with it these days... I would not start waiting for another month
NOW to get a more recent release (and the WEB says they're still selling 
1.2.4 CDs). 
 I tried installing anything just already marked at first entry in
dselect (just had to de-select perl-base), but I read "overriding" 
messages during install and afterwards I had complains about configuration
of some packages, which I type here by hand: 

./base/libc5_5.4.20-1.deb
./dev/perl_5.003.07-6.deb
./editors/ed_0.2-11.deb
./misc/gpm_1.10-2.deb

libc5-dev
libdb1-dev
libg++2.7-dev
libgdbm1-dev
texbin
latex
psnfss

 I didn't see any message at install-time saying that the release may
have such problems, so I was thinking that if anybody had tried it before
releasing it I should have anything working clean. 

-
 -> Please, is there a list of known problems and related
behaviours (that is "consider it unusable"/"do this and this to
fix"/"ignore safely this message")? 
-

 Thanks in advance. I'll be more concise afterwards when I'll put some
more (minor) questions/wishes later, just hope not to get flames for
"silly" questions. I'm learning on some books and I'm reading docs, but it
takes time, I haven't arrived at goal yet but still would like to have
Debian well setup and running on my system. 

 Nicola Bernardelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
---
 You can use <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for messages not coming from
any kind of robot, such as mailing lists. From that address some
autoresponse messages may return when I'm not at home.
---

RE: bi

[Pete Templin]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> Sorry.  I was watching these vi msgs go back and forth and had to jump in and
> make it worse.  I think everyone should use whatever they want to.  I agree
> 100% about emacs.  I have better things to do than to memorize all that crap.
>  That's why I use the GUI version, menu's.

Agreed.  Let's chill this thread a bit, folks.  Everyone, go back to your
computers and use an editor, any editor.  :)

Pete

--
Peter J. Templin, Jr.   Client Services Analyst
Computer & Communication Services   tel: (717) 524-1590
Bucknell University [EMAIL PROTECTED]

How was the trip?

[Paul Wade]

Bruce,
Have you posted anything here or elsewhere about your journey to
the "primary" coast? If not, please tell us about it. Did you "debianize"
the audience?

+--+
+ Paul Wade Greenbush Technologies Corporation +
+ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.greenbush.com/ +
+--+
+ http://www.wtop.com/What does W.T.O.P. mean? +
+--+

update-menus

[Paul Wade]

I notice that many of the packages tell you that you can run a config
program (gpmconfig, apacheconfig, smailconfig) at a later time to change
things. Shouldn't these be added to menus as part of the install? That way
root could run pdmenu and easily get to a submenu of config tools. Where
user config is allowed, it would be placed on their menus, too.

For now, I am trying to build a list of such config commands as I
encounter them.

+--+
+ Paul Wade Greenbush Technologies Corporation +
+ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.greenbush.com/ +
+--+
+ http://www.wtop.com/What does W.T.O.P. mean? +
+--+

Re: problem with base disks

[Carlo U. Segre]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Mart Klanberg wrote:

> 
> Or, if problem is unknown, how can I get the base system from another fs
> (the 'prev. mounted fs'), is it the bo/binary/base/* that it needs? (I
> tar'ed it to dos partition, and copied to /target/bleh/* ... giving him
> /target/bleh/ as the directory of base packets caused script to give some
> seg.faults or just to restart from beginning)
> 

The solution that I have used many times is to get the boot floppies from
the "stable" release and then just install the "unstable" tree from
dselect.  The base system mostly will need to be updated but this works.


Cheers

Carlo

***
*Carlo U. Segre   *
*  Department of Biological, Chemical and Physical Sciences   *
*Illinois Institute of Technology, Chicago, IL 60616  *
*   Voice: (312) 567-3498  FAX: (312) 567-3494*
*  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  *
***

Deb file viewing [was: Dependency ordering]

[Rick Macdonald]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Paul Wade wrote:

> I would love to be able to hit the F3 (view) key in mc
> on a .deb file and get a nice summary of control info and status. 

Last summer I wrote a deb file browser for emacs. Paul's remark reminded
me to remind the list about it again. I'm sure it will be made obsolete by
the deity project but it may be of use to some people until then.

There isn't any package install features, just smart browsing and the
ability to copy individual files out of the archive.

At the time many people suggested that this could/should go into "contrib"
or someplace so that it gets included into the Debian distribution. This
was never done.

Here is the original announcement, modified to mention that it also views
HTML files using w3.el.

--- snip ---

   Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:07:39 -0600
   From: Rick Macdonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Subject: deb-view.el: emacs tool for browsing deb files!

I've written a tool for emacs that allows one to browse deb files.
It's nice to peek at a package file and read the doc, man pages, install
scripts, file list, etc, without installing it first. You can even copy
files out of a deb archive if you want to!

Why emacs? Because most of the smarts to do this stuff was already in
emacs. I just gathered it together in a simple but clever way for Debian
users!  ;-)  Emacs users will recognize "tar-mode", the emacs feature
that that I'm exploiting.

Here's sort of what it looks like on the screen. To view any file, just
go to that line and press "v". If it's a man page file, press "N". Press 
"W" to view HTML. It doesn't matter is the file is compressed (.gz); it 
uncompresses automatically on the fly.

===
Buffers Files Tools Search Operate Mark Immediate Help  
 
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 ./
 -rw-r--r--root/root441 control
 -rw-r--r--root/root 13 conffiles
 -rwxr-xr-xroot/root   1459 postinst
  
-C37 L2   Emacs: sudo_1.4.3-5.deb-INFO (Tar Narrow)--All---

 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 ./
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 etc/
 -r--r-root/root280 etc/sudoers
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/bin/
 -rwxr-sr-xroot/root  41996 usr/bin/sudo
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/man/
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/man/man8/
 -rw-r--r--root/root   4782 usr/man/man8/sudo.8.gz
 -rw-r--r--root/root   3257 usr/man/man8/visudo.8.gz
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/man/man5/
 -rw-r--r--root/root   5289 usr/man/man5/sudoers.5.gz
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/sbin/
 -rwxr-xr-xroot/root  24596 usr/sbin/visudo
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/doc/
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/doc/copyright/
 -rw-r--r--root/root   1282 usr/doc/copyright/sudo
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/doc/examples/
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/doc/examples/sudo/
 -rw-r--r--root/root   2572 usr/doc/examples/sudo/sudoers
 drwxr-xr-xroot/root  0 usr/doc/sudo/
 -rw-r--r--root/root   2335 usr/doc/sudo/FAQ.gz
 -rw-r--r--root/root   2398 usr/doc/sudo/debian.OPTIONS.gz
 
--**-C37 L9   Emacs: sudo_1.4.3-5.deb-DATA (Tar narrow)--All---
===
 
The lisp file is about 300 lines long. I decided not to post it to the
list, for fear of annoying non-emacs users, so I've put it up on a web
server. Sorry, I don't have anonymous ftp for you. The file is about
13KB.

http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~macdonal/deb-view.el

If you can't get at it, I can email it to you.

Note that deb-view works for the current and past formats of the Debian
file format. As the deb file evolves, I hope I can continue to provide
this tool.

One thing that I'm missing is a way for future Debian newcomers to know
about this tool. Suggestions welcome.

I hope some of you find this useful!

...RickM...

Re: Deb file viewing [was: Dependency ordering]

[Maarten Boekhold]

> On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Paul Wade wrote:
> 
> > I would love to be able to hit the F3 (view) key in mc
> > on a .deb file and get a nice summary of control info and status. 
>

I don't know what setup you have, but my installation of mc does just
this. I have mc_3.2.1-1 here.

Maarten 

_
| Maarten Boekhold, Faculty of Electrical Engineering TU Delft,   NL|
|[EMAIL PROTECTED]   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |
-

Re: problem with base disks

[Mart Klanberg]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Carlo U. Segre wrote:

> The solution that I have used many times is to get the boot floppies from
> the "stable" release and then just install the "unstable" tree from
> dselect.  The base system mostly will need to be updated but this works.

Getting the last unstable disks seemed to solve the problem.

Thanks for answering,

Mart Klanberg,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Deb file viewing [was: Dependency ordering]

[Paul Wade]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Maarten Boekhold wrote:

> > On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Paul Wade wrote:
> > 
> > > I would love to be able to hit the F3 (view) key in mc
> > > on a .deb file and get a nice summary of control info and status. 
> >
> 
> I don't know what setup you have, but my installation of mc does just
> this. I have mc_3.2.1-1 here.

I have 3.5.17 installed by dpkg. I know mc can be configured to do a lot.
So can many other tools. A standardized library with a perl module
included would make the glue adhere better.

+--+
+ Paul Wade Greenbush Technologies Corporation +
+ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.greenbush.com/ +
+--+
+ http://www.wtop.com/What does W.T.O.P. mean? +
+--+

Replacing svgalib1 with svgalib-dummy1

[Riku Saikkonen]

How do I replace an installed svgalib1 with svgalib-dummy1?

Running "dpkg -i svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb" says this:
dpkg: regarding svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb containing svgalib-dummy1:
 svgalib-dummy1 conflicts with svgalib1
  svgalib1 (version 1:1.2.10-4) is installed.
dpkg: error processing svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb (--install):
 conflicting packages - not installing svgalib-dummy1
Errors were encountered while processing:
 svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb

And "dpkg --purge svgalib1" complains about a few packages (like gs) that
depend on svgalib1...

Would:
  dpkg --force-depends --purge svgalib1
  dpkg --install svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb
be the right thing to do?

(How safe is --force-depends, anyway? Can I safely use it if I check the
Depends: lines of the packages manually and see that I have the programs I
need?)

(I'm in the process of upgrading (via running dpkg -iEG manually on the new
packages) from 1.2.9 to the newest frozen. I have dpkg 1.4.0.8 already
installed.)

--
-=- Rjs -=- [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: update-menus

[joost witteveen]

> 
> I notice that many of the packages tell you that you can run a config
> program (gpmconfig, apacheconfig, smailconfig) at a later time to change
> things. Shouldn't these be added to menus as part of the install? That way
> root could run pdmenu and easily get to a submenu of config tools. Where
> user config is allowed, it would be placed on their menus, too.

You can run update-menus any time you want.

But: Update-menus is more like /usr/sbin/install-info than
gpmconfig: update-menus doesn't ask the user questions. In that
respect, it isn't very usefull to run update-menus every so often
(it just takes time). 

However, users or systemadmins who read update-menus(1) and menufiles(5)
(the manual pages), learn that they can change the menufiles
in ~/menu/ (user) or /etc/menu (systemadmin), and then running update-menus
is usefull. (much like adding a file to /usr/local/info, and then
running install-info to add that to the info directory).

> For now, I am trying to build a list of such config commands as I
> encounter them.

That will be a very usefull document. However, (see above) I'm
not sure update-menus is suitable for that list, but that's for
you to decide (and if the answer is yes, please add install-info
too).

Thanks,

-- 
joost witteveen, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i

Re: Replacing svgalib1 with svgalib-dummy1

[joost witteveen]

> How do I replace an installed svgalib1 with svgalib-dummy1?
> 
> Running "dpkg -i svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb" says this:
[complains]
> And "dpkg --purge svgalib1" complains about a few packages (like gs) that
> depend on svgalib1...
> 
> Would:
>   dpkg --force-depends --purge svgalib1
>   dpkg --install svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb
> be the right thing to do?

I just tried it (I needed a "dpkg -r svgalib1-dev" in between, BTW),
and it worked OK. (and, gs 3.33 still runs afterwards).


> (How safe is --force-depends, anyway? Can I safely use it if I check the
> Depends: lines of the packages manually and see that I have the programs I
> need?)

Well, I usually trust dpkg when it says I have packages installed
that depend on the package I'm about to remove.

For example, in this cace, dpkg was right (you do need svgalib1 to run
gs, even under X11), and I think svgalib-dummy1 is missing the
  Replaces: svgalib1
line (this appears making and upgrade from gs to gs-aladding easier).


-- 
joost witteveen, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i

Re: Question on install

[Jim Van Zandt]

>What I did:
>desire:/space/debian/bo/disks-i386/current # cat resc1440.bin >/dev/fd0
>desire:/space/debian/bo/disks-i386/current # md5sum 986c8099396350772a6e43264f145e66
>desire:/space/debian/bo/disks-i386/current # md5sum resc1440.bin
>986c8099396350772a6e43264f145e66  resc1440.bin

I think your file is wrong:
voyager:~# md5sum Is it possible that I should not have copied the bin files on my dos
>partition and then by disc to the other computer? Perhaps the binaries
>did not make it?

It looks that way.

 - Jim Van Zandt

P.S.

>Dammit, what's it I'm overseeing?
   ^^ 
should be "overlooking".  Yes, I know, English is a difficult
language.  I'm just luck to have grown up with it :-)

 

Re: Replacing svgalib1 with svgalib-dummy1

[Riku Saikkonen]

joost witteveen wrote:
>> Would:
>>   dpkg --force-depends --purge svgalib1
>>   dpkg --install svgalib-dummy1_1.2.10.deb
>> be the right thing to do?
>I just tried it (I needed a "dpkg -r svgalib1-dev" in between, BTW),
>and it worked OK. (and, gs 3.33 still runs afterwards).

Ok. I just did it, and it worked. Thanks. :)

Hmm. Except that I just found another problem. :) I tried installing xaos
(which I didn't previously have installed), and dpkg complains that "xaos
depends on svgalib1 (>= 1:1.2.10-2); however: Package svgalib1 is not
installed."

svgalib-dummy1 does provide svgalib1, but apparently dpkg doesn't notice
that -- maybe the problem is xaos's dependance on a specific version number
of svgalib1 (and dpkg doesn't know which version of svgalib1 the dummy
package provides)?

>> (How safe is --force-depends, anyway? Can I safely use it if I check the
>> Depends: lines of the packages manually and see that I have the programs I
>> need?)
>Well, I usually trust dpkg when it says I have packages installed
>that depend on the package I'm about to remove.

Yes, usually; I was thinking of the situation where I'm installing something
that depends on something I have in /usr/local/.

For example, a month or so ago I had a self-compiled beta version of gnuplot
in /usr/local/bin/, and I tried installing octave (which depends on
gnuplot), but didn't want to install the Debian package of gnuplot (which
was the older, official version). Naturally, dpkg complained about gnuplot
not being installed; and I never got around to trying --force-depends, but
I'm wondering whether it'd have worked...

-- 
-=- Rjs -=- [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Debian 1.3 Installation

[jacek]

Hi to all...,

I tried to install Debian 1.3 with the 04-04-1997 Disks and ran into
some problems...;-)))

1. I think that the iso9660 filesystem is missing in the fs part of the
module configuration...??? Or did I miss something??

2. fdisk still does not refresh the screen after writing the partition
table and I could not partition the drive the way I wanted...but I think
it's my fault.

3. dselect cdrom installation failed because /dev/mcd and/or /dev/mcdx
are not available?? How can I create them?? With which magic and
options/parameters???

I'd like some short information about the modules during the
installation, because it's not always obvious what some of them are used
for.

The Disks are 1.3, but can I install the packages from a 1.2.x CD and
later upgrade the packages...??? Currently I do not have Debian 1.3 on
CD.

TIA

Jacek

Re: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Craig Sanders wrote:

> IMO, the base system should have vi AND some crappy editor like ae or
> pico, with some note saying "if you can't use vi, then XXX is installed"

s/XXX/ed/

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.

RE: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> Sorry.  I was watching these vi msgs go back and forth and had to jump in and
> make it worse.  I think everyone should use whatever they want to.  I agree
> 100% about emacs.  I have better things to do than to memorize all that crap.
> That's why I use the GUI version, menu's.

Editors whould use keys, not mouse.  I use both emacs and vi, so I can
say: to edit with vi, you need the keys iaxX"dd"u.(dot) and maybe
(if you have a really dumb tty) hjkl.  To change a config file, you
don't need to use all the power of vi.  Well, sometimes I change
config files with ed, although I don't think of myself as one who
*knows* ed.

> I think the original reason for this endless thread was to discuss the best
> editor for a base install.  One of the points I tried to get across is that a
> newbie won't be able to use any editor that isn't either similar to an M$
> editor (not edlin) or that doesn't have a menu of some kind, such as ae.

When I saw Unix first time, I was taught vi.  5 minutes lesson + brief
explanation of man(1).  Put 5 lines explaining vi behaviour in the
installation guide, and that will be enough.

Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.

How to list long package names?

[Peter Weiss]

Hello,

how can I see package names that are too long to fit in the dpkg -l
standard output?

For example the kernel-source packages generated by make-kpkg don't show
the VERY IMPORTANT kernel version number when listed in the dpkg -l
output.

 Thanks -- Peter

--
--
Peter Weiss, Sonnenstraße 17, D-26123 Oldenburg, Tel:  0441/ 81058
http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de:/~weissp
--
-- Slow has got 4 letters so has calm; speed has got 5 letters so has death --
--

Re: bi

[Britton]

> > I stay versed in vi commands because I have to be, not because I want
> > to be. There may be a better bare-bones editor for debian than ae, but
> > it should not be vi.
> 
> no, it should be vi because that is the standard unix text editor. you
> want something else, then install something elsebut every unix
> system should have vi installed. unix without vi is like unix without
> sh.
> 
> IMO, the base system should have vi AND some crappy editor like ae or
> pico, with some note saying "if you can't use vi, then XXX is installed"

I'll second this.  vi, or vi AND something else.  Not just something else.

Debian 1.3 again

[jacek]

Hi again,

It seems that the following devices are missing after the installation
from the base disks:

/dev/mcd
/dev/mcdx
/dev/modem

I managed to create /dev/mcdx0 and /dev/mcdx1 by typing

mknod /dev/mcdx0 b 20 0
mknod /dev/mcdx1 b 20 1

Is this correct...??
But I don't know how to create /dev/mcd. I need mcd because mcdx won't
read the superblock...I remember that in an previous installation some
months ago only mcd worked with my CD-ROM.
Man is currently not working...because I cannot mount the cd...the mcd
is missing.

Then I linked  the modem to ttyS1...or is it vice versa?? 

ln -s ttyS1 modem

Is this correct...???
How do I create /dev/mcd and why are all the devices not created
automatically...?? Someone told me, that this problem would be
solved...but this was some months ago!

TIA

Jacek

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Britton]

> > Yes.  Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install.  The answer at 
> > this
> > point is to run configure over and over.  Each time it will install 
> > something
> > that is needed to settle the conflicts.  The problem is that the selected
> > files aren't in dependant order.  Hopefully the new project will address 
> > this
> > problem.  
> 
> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install.  They
> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together
> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items.
> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution
> but most people have better things to do.  These days you probably
> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete
> installation. 

I don't know.  I was quite thrilled when I found that debian was giving me
the option to know more or less exactly what was going on my system.  I
used to run slackware and when I would do a find I would get 16000 +
files. I had no clue what most of the stuff on my system did.  Granted, I
ended up in more or less the same situation since I can't resist those
sexy little program descriptions Debian gives you, but it was still very
fun and informative.  I was of course less thrilled by the problems
mentioned above, especially the confusing way the dependencies are
presented.  I still am not exactly clear in my mind how that all worked
and why I had to overide some simple stuff to make other common things
work.  Nevertheless I think individual package selectin on install is
something we should keep, at least as a perfectly accesable option.  I
would like to see the energy go into that rather than a more general
packaging scheme.  I think more new users like it than you think. 

Re: Install base system from frozen (bo)

[Syrus Nemat-Nasser]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Alexander Koch wrote:

> Quoting Syrus Nemat-Nasser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> [...]
> > These disks are obsolete.  There is a newer set (1997-04-04?).  There 
> > were many problems with those disks.  The newest disk set allows for a 
> > floppyless install from a dos system.  I don't know how to do this with 
> > lilo.
> 
> Aehmmm, how?
> 
> having Loadlin load the file linux, root to be root.bin on the same DOS
> dir? Help appreciated (see other thread, sigh).

Yes.  See the included message writted by Dale.  It has instructions.

Syrus.

-- 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Syrus Nemat-Nasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>UCSD Physics Dept.

From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Apr 12 13:40:55 1997
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:23:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Syrus Nemat-Nasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Debian Testers 
Subject: Re: New Install Floppies [Was: Re: Desding List is open for business]
Resent-Date: 2 Apr 1997 14:23:36 -
Resent-cc: recipient.list.not.shown:;@lists.debian.org
Resent-From: debian-testing@lists.debian.org

On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Syrus Nemat-Nasser wrote:

> 
> Does anyone know the method to try the floppyless install?  I assume it's 
> a question of executing loadlin.exe with the correct command line.  Going 
> without floppies could really speed up this initial testing which 
> requires many reboots.
> 
Here is what I have on the floppyless install. It requires a kernel with
loop device support (should be in the "current" disk set) or you need to
load modules with a drvxxx.bin floppy. Hope this helps.

Zero Floppy Installation Procedure

WHAT YOU WILL NEED

All the files you will need are found in a recent disk set. You will find
this set in the directory disks-i386, at any of the Debian archive mirror
sites. You can download via FTP or purchase a CD from a variety of vendors. 
Once you decide where to get them, you will need the following:

linux   -   The kernel image used on the boot disk
root.bin-   The root file system from the boot disk
base1_x.tgz -   Base file system found on 4 base disks
drv1440.bin -   Image file containing kernel modules

You will need one other file, not found in the standard disk set. This is
loadlin.exe and is usually found in the tools directory of a Debian archive.
You will also find this program at most internet sites, like sunsite. For
best results, get version 1.6 or better.

In order to do the install without floppies, you will need a bootable DOS
partition with at least 10 meg of disk space.

GETTING STARTED

Put the required files on the root directory of the DOS partition. Change
directory to the root and enter the following line:

loadlin linux root=/dev/ram initrd=root.bin

After the usual, long list of boot messages, you will find yourself at the
first screen of the installation script. If you have a color monitor, press
the down arrow once (to move to the next selection) and press enter. You
will then see the same screen in color.

INSTALLATION

Choose "Next - Continue with Installation", and after an introduction screen
you are presented with a menu of choices. The choice that the installer
thinks you should take next is already highlighted. You should work through
the following steps as you would in any "normal" installation:

1   -   Configure the keyboard 
2   -   Initialize and Activate the Swap partition 
3   -   Initialize and Mount Disk Partition

Before you go on to "Install the Base System" you will need to do some
"setup". First, either move to the bottom of the menu and choose "Execute a
Shell", or, more simply, press Alt F2 to get to the second Virtual Console.
Once at the prompt, mount the DOS partition (preferably on /mnt) and return
to the installer.

Now continue with "Install the Base System". Be sure to choose "already
mounted file system" from the choices available and give the path to the
archive as /mnt rather than letting the installer search. The installer will
find and install base1_x.tgz from the dos partition.

The next sections, Install OS Kernel and Modules, will need to be done "by
hand", so, Alt F2 or shell out from the menu and do the following:

cp /mnt/disk1440.bin /target 
cp /mnt/linux /target/vmlinuz

Return to the installer and "Configure the Base System" and "Configure the
Network" and you are ready to reboot.

CLEANUP

Once you reboot back to DOS, if you installed your base system on partition
/dev/hda2, then you can boot your new system with:

loadlin linux root=/dev/hda2

When the system boots for the first time, you must give a password for root
and declare a user account as well. After this, the installer brings up
dselect. However, the system is not yet ready to continue with the
installation, so exit dselect and do the following clean up.

You will need a loop device to unpack the modules image f

Re: update-menus

[Britton]

> I notice that many of the packages tell you that you can run a config
> program (gpmconfig, apacheconfig, smailconfig) at a later time to change
> things. Shouldn't these be added to menus as part of the install? That way
> root could run pdmenu and easily get to a submenu of config tools. Where
> user config is allowed, it would be placed on their menus, too.
> 
> For now, I am trying to build a list of such config commands as I
> encounter them.

Yes.  Also, do packages currently include provision for a description of
the maintainer's choices regarding compile time options, config file
settings, and so on?  I have tried doing it a few times, and there are
certainly lots of details to getting a program compiled.  If there is not
a standard information repository acesable through a standard package, I
think there should be. 

'Frozen' boot disks

[Lamar Folsom]

Is anyone else having trouble finding the disks for 1.3?  I'd appreciate any 
pointers.  The 'bo/disks-i386/1997-04-04/' directory seems to be empty.

TIA
-- 
Lamar Folsom
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~fols9488
"Life is wasted on the living."  - The Master

Auto updating the hardware clock on shutdown.

[Rob Browning]

I assumed that the hardware clock was always written to reflect the
current system time on shutdown.  Is that true?  The reason I ask is
because we just had the daylight savings switch here, and at least one
of my systems came up after a reboot with the wrong time (it was an
hour off).  If the clock is not by default written at shutdown, what's
the best way to make sure that it is, an appropriate rc.d script
perhaps?

Thanks
-- 
Rob

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y

[Nicola Bernardelli]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Britton wrote:
> I used to run slackware... 

Me too, and also tried RedHat recently, but not for a long time.

> I think individual package selectin on install is something we should 
> keep, at least as a perfectly accesable option.  I would like to see the 
> energy go into that rather than a more general packaging scheme. I think 
> more new users like it than you think.

That's why I'm here, quite new to Debian. Ok, there are some problems with
dselect (going to be replaced anyway I see), but the chance of knowing about
dependencies and not only installing but also removing or upgrading *each*
package is of great importance to me. It is just a very good thing which
needs a great design effort (and possibly some debugging), as for instance
any C++ "ambitious"  class hierarchy. The taste it gives to me is of a great
quality Linux distribution. 


 Nicola Bernardelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
---
 You can use <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for messages not coming from
any kind of robot, such as mailing lists. From that address some
autoresponse messages may return when I'm not at home.
---

Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")

[Brian C. White]

Those are all points that have been brought up before and will be addressed.
Thanks for the input!
  Brian
 ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )

---
 the difference between theory and practice is less in theory than in practice

Re: 'Frozen' boot disks

[Richard L Shepherd]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Lamar Folsom wrote:

> Is anyone else having trouble finding the disks for 1.3?  I'd appreciate any 
> pointers.  The 'bo/disks-i386/1997-04-04/' directory seems to be empty.

I have the same problem.  I had thought it may be because I mirror a
mirror (which in turn may not directly mirror ftp.debian.org) and so my
mirror was effectively a few days behind.  However I just checked on
ftp.debian.org and it really is empty so

Where are they then?

8<--->8
Richard Shepherd ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
8<--->8

Re: update-menus

[Joey Hess]

> > I notice that many of the packages tell you that you can run a config
> > program (gpmconfig, apacheconfig, smailconfig) at a later time to change
> > things. Shouldn't these be added to menus as part of the install? That way
> > root could run pdmenu and easily get to a submenu of config tools. Where
> > user config is allowed, it would be placed on their menus, too.
> > 
> > For now, I am trying to build a list of such config commands as I
> > encounter them.

That's a good idea (nice to see you're using my pdmenu program, btw :-)

I'm cc'ing this to Joost, since he handles the menu package. Joost, I think
this submenu for configuration scripts should be called Apps/System/Admin
The only thing that installs an entry in there right now is taper, but I
think it is a good name for a menu of things the sysadmin can use, which
should include these *config scripts. Also, it might be useful to add 
something to the README saying that the *config scripts need to go in the 
menus.

-- 
See shy Jo.