Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
python3-defaults in unstable now adds Python 3.13 as a supported Python 3.13 version. You might see some additional build failures, until the binNMUs for this addition are done [1]. This might take some days for some architectures. We will most likely also see some more issues once the lower levels of this addition are done. Matthias [1] https://release.debian.org/transitions/html/python3.13-add.html
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
Hello Jonathan, thank you for the reply. Am 13.11.2024 12:15 schrieb Jonathan Carter: This was discussed at the Python BoF at DebConf in ROK earlier this year. OK, nice to know that there was a discussion before. Did I missed the announcement of the results of this discussion in this mailing list? - Christian
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
do we know how long we will have to fix all the FTBFS and autopkgtest before the freeze ? I am a bit worrying for the scientific stack , will we have enough time to work with our upstream in order to fix all these FTBFS. In the scientific stack, things are going slowly We are not 100% of our time dedicated to Debian work... so I hope that it will not ruine the effort of the trixie cycle for scientific softwares. moving to Python 3.12 was not that simple... Cheers Frédéric
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
On 13.11.24 11:04, PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel wrote: do we know how long we will have to fix all the FTBFS and autopkgtest before the freeze ? no. the freeze date is not yet announced. I am a bit worrying for the scientific stack , will we have enough time to work with our upstream in order to fix all these FTBFS. In the scientific stack, things are going slowly We are not 100% of our time dedicated to Debian work... so I hope that it will not ruine the effort of the trixie cycle for scientific softwares. moving to Python 3.12 was not that simple... this is the same as we did for the Python 3.12 transition. Please note that we don't enable any of the experimental features in Python 3.12 (no GIL, JIT compilation), so assuming there are currently no other RC issues in your packages, there should plenty of time to fix any 3.13 related issues. Matthias
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
Hello, I am an upstream maintainer and ask just because I want to learn. It was a similar case before the Debian 12 release introducing Python 3.12 near to the freeze. Why are fresh Python releases introduced so early and near to the next Debian release? This is not how I do experience Debian at all. This is not "rock solid". Python 3.13 is very fresh, no one needs it yet. I see no problem introducing it with Debian 14 in 2027. For my project it does not matter directly. I do support 3.13. But this process does bind a lot of resources on Debian which could be used more productive into other problems. Who decide which Python version is introduced in Debian? Isn't there a council for heavy decisions like this? Regards, Christian Buhtz Am 13.11.2024 11:04 schrieb PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel: do we know how long we will have to fix all the FTBFS and autopkgtest before the freeze ? I am a bit worrying for the scientific stack , will we have enough time to work with our upstream in order to fix all these FTBFS. In the scientific stack, things are going slowly We are not 100% of our time dedicated to Debian work... so I hope that it will not ruine the effort of the trixie cycle for scientific softwares. moving to Python 3.12 was not that simple... Cheers Frédéric
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
> this is the same as we did for the Python 3.12 transition. Please note > that we don't enable any of the experimental features in Python 3.12 (no > GIL, JIT compilation), so assuming there are currently no other RC > issues in your packages, there should plenty of time to fix any 3.13 > related issues. the plenty of time is not only my time or Debian time but also upstream time. I just wanted to express my concern because we rely at work on the scientific stack. So we try hard to maintain our packages in testing, and it it always a deception to see them (part of) expelled from testing due to an FTBFS with a new Python or a failing autopkgtest. amicalement, Fred
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 11:46:21AM +0100, PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel wrote: > > this is the same as we did for the Python 3.12 transition. Please note > > that we don't enable any of the experimental features in Python 3.12 (no > > GIL, JIT compilation), so assuming there are currently no other RC > > issues in your packages, there should plenty of time to fix any 3.13 > > related issues. > > > the plenty of time is not only my time or Debian time but also upstream time. I agree that it's unfortunate that for many upstream the time to fix 3.13 failures starts not when betas are available and not even when the final release happens (which was a month ago) but when somebody files a bug report. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
Hi On 2024/11/13 12:43, c.bu...@posteo.jp wrote: This is not how I do experience Debian at all. This is not "rock solid". Python 3.13 is very fresh, no one needs it yet. I see no problem introducing it with Debian 14 in 2027. For my project it does not matter directly. I do support 3.13. But this process does bind a lot of resources on Debian which could be used more productive into other problems. Who decide which Python version is introduced in Debian? Isn't there a council for heavy decisions like this? This was discussed at the Python BoF at DebConf in ROK earlier this year. The Python team collaboratively weighs in the the pros and cons and then tends to build consensus in order to make a decision, I don't think there's any need for a council. Also, bugs and ftbfs can still be fixed until very late in the freeze cycle. Optimistically, soft freeze could start in January, that would be about a full 3 months after Python 3.13 was released, although, since we don't have any freeze dates set yet, I think it's quite possible that the release team will set that a bit later in order to accommodate the later than usual freeze announcement. -Jonathan
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
Hi buhtz (2024.11.13_12:06:33_+) > > This was discussed at the Python BoF at DebConf in ROK earlier this > > year. > > OK, nice to know that there was a discussion before. Did I missed the > announcement of the results of this discussion in this mailing list? The BoF was mentioned on the list, but I think we forgot to feed the conclusions back. Here is the recording: https://debconf24.debconf.org/talks/31-python-bof/ Link to the notes at the bottom (etherpad). Stefano -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
Hi PICCA (2024.11.13_10:04:26_+) > I am a bit worrying for the scientific stack , will we have enough > time to work with our upstream in order to fix all these FTBFS. In the > scientific stack, things are going slowly The reality here is that Python has a 6-month release cycle, these days. If upstreams can't stay on top of new Python releases, we are stuck with doing the porting work or dropping them from Debian. We can't fix them all in 6 months. There are still a lot of open 3.11 and 3.12 bugs, for example. If we don't have the latest stable version of Python in our stable release, I think a large number of our users will be very disappointed. It would certainly cement the view that Debian ships ancient software. I don't think the users who would be upset would have any motivation to help improve the situation (working on old scientific packages). If we have to drop large numbers of scientific packages in our stable releases, I imagine a small number of users would be disappointed, and hopefully able to see how they can help avoid this situation in the future. Sorry, but I see that as the less bad outcome. I'm not saying I want it, but I think it's the approach we have to take, in the face of unmaintained software. The alternative would be to carry multiple Python releases in a Debian stable release, which is something we haven't wanted to do. We try to start the detection process as early as possible. I have been doing archive wide rebuilds (as much as I could, on arm64) since 3.13 rc2. I announced it, and our planned migration to 3.13 in trixie, in: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20240920072725.mkhi575oydnr6...@satie.tumbleweed.org.za I'm hoping to have even better tooling for this kind of rebuild in the future. Stefano -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272
Re: Python 3.13 addition as a supported Python version started
Hi debian-python (2024.11.13_15:01:31_+) > Hi PICCA (2024.11.13_10:04:26_+) > > I am a bit worrying for the scientific stack , will we have enough > > time to work with our upstream in order to fix all these FTBFS. In the > > scientific stack, things are going slowly > > The reality here is that Python has a 6-month release cycle, these days. I mean 12-month, of course. Stefano -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272
