can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:19 PM, wrote: > Your membership in the mailing list Python-modules-team has been > disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you > was dated 10-Sep-2016. You will not get any more messages from this > list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam emails and that what causes this problem. I'm experiencing this more and more frequently. can we turn off the auto-membershp-disable feature for our mailing list? Thanks, -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 02:46:54PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:19 PM, > wrote: > > Your membership in the mailing list Python-modules-team has been > > disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you > > was dated 10-Sep-2016. You will not get any more messages from this > > list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more > > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. > > I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam > emails and that what causes this problem. I'm experiencing this more > and more frequently. > > can we turn off the auto-membershp-disable feature for our mailing list? AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken DKIM signatures. What will probably solve your problem is dropping any subject munging and any footer that the list server adds to all messages. This was done on the lists.debian.org domain not a long time ago (there was a footer), but I'm not sure about the different lists at lists.alioth.debian.org. Try asking that to whoever maintains the list instead of asking that they remove the auto-membership-disable feature. Thanks.
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Santiago Vila wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 02:46:54PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:19 PM, >> wrote: >> > Your membership in the mailing list Python-modules-team has been >> > disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you >> > was dated 10-Sep-2016. You will not get any more messages from this >> > list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more >> > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. >> >> I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >> emails and that what causes this problem. I'm experiencing this more >> and more frequently. >> >> can we turn off the auto-membershp-disable feature for our mailing list? > > AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken > DKIM signatures. no. it rejects (yes technically not bounce, the mails are rejected in the smtp session to gmails MX servers) mails as http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/python-modules-team/2016-September/033740.html which never reached my inbox (not even in the spam folder) > What will probably solve your problem is dropping any subject munging > and any footer that the list server adds to all messages. This was > done on the lists.debian.org domain not a long time ago (there was a > footer), but I'm not sure about the different lists at > lists.alioth.debian.org. > > Try asking that to whoever maintains the list instead of asking that > they remove the auto-membership-disable feature. the decision should made by the team -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 04:15:19PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Santiago Vila wrote: > > AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken > > DKIM signatures. > > no. it rejects (yes technically not bounce, the mails are rejected in > the smtp session to gmails MX servers) mails as > http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/python-modules-team/2016-September/033740.html > which never reached my inbox (not even in the spam folder) Fine, but it is yet to be seen that the quoted message is rejected for being "spam" (which is not an exact science), it could also be rejected for having a broken DKIM signature (which may be checked automatically), as the email is clearly modified by the list server. The "[Python-modules-team]" thing in the subject is probably enough to break the DKIM signature. We should really not be sending messages having broken signatures to the outside world, including our own email inboxes. And email users subscribed to one or more mailing lists should really use email filters to filter email, not rely on this obnoxious subject munging. More to the point, when you subscribe to a mailing list, you should be ready to accept all messages from such mailing list, not accept some messages and reject others. Thanks.
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 05:34:12PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 04:15:19PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Santiago Vila wrote: > Fine, but it is yet to be seen that the quoted message is rejected for > being "spam" (which is not an exact science), it could also be rejected > for having a broken DKIM signature (which may be checked automatically), > as the email is clearly modified by the list server. I've never seen rejected email from gmail's SMTP due to broken DKIM. AFAICT it just puts them in Spam (and only for the domains that enforce DKIM to be valid). OTOH, in my rely mail hosts I often see messagges like this: [wrapped for convenience] Sep 5 07:42:41 kahlan postfix/smtp[25940]: C67BF41796: to=, orig_to=, relay=alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.222.26]:25, delay=248373, delays=248370/0.08/2.6/0.27, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.222.26] said: 421-4.7.0 [95.85.2.163 15] Our system has detected that this message is 421-4.7.0 suspicious due to the nature of the content and/or the links within. 421-4.7.0 To best protect our users from spam, the message has been blocked. 421-4.7.0 Please visit 421 4.7.0 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/188131 for more information. 24si4125534ljb.48 - gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command)) Usually those kind of emails stick there and postfix keeps trying them until they eventually hit the timeout and my rely rejects them too. > The "[Python-modules-team]" thing in the subject is probably enough to > break the DKIM signature. also the footer, if there is one, as it's default of mailman. > We should really not be sending messages having broken signatures to > the outside world, including our own email inboxes. ~all mailman mailing lists distributes messagges with broken DKIM signatures since the conception, the world did not end. It's plain annoying only for the very few domains that enforce them (notabily: yahoo, but I stopped caring for it). > And email users subscribed to one or more mailing lists should really > use email filters to filter email, not rely on this obnoxious subject > munging. yes. > More to the point, when you subscribe to a mailing list, you should be > ready to accept all messages from such mailing list, not accept some > messages and reject others. I agree gmail is broken there (and not only there), though I'm still an user too... The correct behaviour if they really want to avoid spam to even reach the spam folder, is to accept the email, and discard it. Mattia, whom suffers from this for the debian-science-maintainers ML. -- regards, Mattia Rizzolo GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18 4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540 .''`. more about me: https://mapreri.org : :' : Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri `. `'` Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia `- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Mattia Rizzolo wrote: > The correct behaviour if they really want to avoid spam to even reach > the spam folder, is to accept the email, and discard it. err that's wrong, so wrong. every email provider with a handful of users rejects spam messages in the smtp session; not doing so is a waste of time, it doesnt give any information back to the sender (that in some rare case is a human and really wants to know the email was not received) and in some countries (italy to name one) you would be breaking the law accepting emails and not delivering them to the recipient. now that we discussed at length how we should handle the smtp service with spam, can we please get back on topic? is it possible for the admins to disable the auto-membership-suspend option on the the python teams mailing list? is it something others would rather keep or not? -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: >I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >emails and that what causes this problem. Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very long time. Cheers, -Barry
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sep 10, 2016, at 04:32 PM, Santiago Vila wrote: >AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken >DKIM signatures. There are a number of DKIM mitigation features in newer versions of Mailman 2 that should be investigated. I can't tell what version of Mailman this list is using, and obviously don't have any access to the list or system configurations. If it really is DKIM that's causing your problem, please look at these. I haven't seen any reports of changing GMail behavior here on the mailman-users list, although I haven't been watching carefully lately. Cheers, -Barry
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On 2016-09-10 17:29, Sandro Tosi wrote: > in some countries (italy to name one) you would be > breaking the law accepting emails and not delivering them to the > recipient. Same in Germany, AFAIK.
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
Yeah, I get these (quite annoying) bounce warnings on my gmail account once in a while. It's quite annoying. Paul On Sep 10, 2016 2:35 PM, "Barry Warsaw" wrote: > On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: > > >I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam > >emails and that what causes this problem. > > Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very > long > time. > > Cheers, > -Barry > >
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: > >>I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >>emails and that what causes this problem. > > Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very long > time. i indeed used a wrong term (in email-world bounce has a specific meaning): gmail rejects spam emails (according to its filters) during the smtp session with the other MTA, so it's not a bounce, but the sender (alioth in this case) cant deliver the email, and that's what triggers the suspended membership process. -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 3:23 AM, Sandro Tosi wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: >> >>>I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >>>emails and that what causes this problem. >> >> Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very long >> time. > > i indeed used a wrong term (in email-world bounce has a specific > meaning): gmail rejects spam emails (according to its filters) during > the smtp session with the other MTA, so it's not a bounce, but the > sender (alioth in this case) cant deliver the email, and that's what > triggers the suspended membership process. Rejecting instead of discarding spam sent to mailing lists has also been bad practice for a long time. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
