Re: Python talks at DebConf
[anatoly techtonik, 2010-05-08] > Only ideas. > "Using Python toolchain for Python modules/apps in Debian?" > Cover stdeb (anything else?), the reasons (if any) political and > technical, why it (or anything else) can not be used instead > unpythonic and unfamiliar make/debhelper stuff. It is not really > helper if no one understands how it works, and it is confusing for > non-C folks. looks similar to mine... > "Ubuntu, Debian and Python packaging." > Why the difference? The consequences. I'd love to see this one. The only reason I got from Ubuntu for doing transitions outside Debian and allowing Debian to do it later (and forcing us to fix after them) is... "because you are slow". All technical reasons (like relative imports in 2.6) were easy to prove wrong. I'm sure Ubuntu guys are not crazy and do not break universe on purpose (main is always well tested) so I'd love to hear their reasons. > "Python policy 2010." > Why not use virtualenv for Packaging applications? Every single DD understands that shipping two copies of the same file is one too many. We can talk (BoF) about how to convince upstreams to be sane, though (search for Barry's ideas in this¹ thread) [¹] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2010-April/099729.html -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100508085540.ga28...@piotro.eu
Re: Python talks at DebConf
On 08/05/10 06:41, anatoly techtonik wrote: > 80kb of duplicated > code (even 8Mb) doesn't worth wasted time for troubleshooting in 2010. > It may be a reason for security, but why not just let packages > register their used version in Debian registry and track it there? Because if there's a security hole in that code, you would need to make a lot of DSAs (see the recent problem with expat that was embedded in a lot of places). That's even worse than statically linking, since those embedded copies are forks of their original upstream many times. Emilio -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be52601.6060...@debian.org
Re: Python talks at DebConf
* anatoly techtonik , 2010-05-08, 07:16: Cover stdeb (anything else?), the reasons (if any) political and technical, why it (or anything else) can not be used instead unpythonic and unfamiliar make/debhelper stuff. It is not really helper if no one understands how it works, and it is confusing for non-C folks. The premise of your implication is false. -- Jakub Wilk signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Python talks at DebConf
Hi, On Sat, 08.05.2010 at 10:55:40 +0200, Piotr O??arowski wrote: > [anatoly techtonik, 2010-05-08] > > Why not use virtualenv for Packaging applications? > > Every single DD understands that shipping two copies of the same file is > one too many. actually, I don't. Virtualenv has been a life-saver for me more than once, and the price is to have some degree of replication that is unwanted, as well as no support or adaption to what Debian (or any other platform) may need with respect to a given package (ie, nothing of what is in debian/patches). Maintaining a number of virtualenvs is really a chore and kind of a risk, but also allows for project-specific adjustments that have no place in the base platform. As I was recently told to switch to Plone's unified installer, this takes the idea behind virtualenv even one step further. I don't see a solution that allows me to stay "within" Debian and conduct the work I need to do at the same time. If you do, please speak up. I'm all ears! IOW, in the ideal world, it may be desirable to have only one copy of a certain file, but we are not even able to get close, imho, if it is only for the different paces of Debian and our various upstreams. Kind regards, --Toni++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100508113603.12452.qm...@oak.oeko.net
virtualenv (was: Python talks at DebConf)
[Toni Mueller, 2010-05-08] > On Sat, 08.05.2010 at 10:55:40 +0200, Piotr O??arowski > wrote: > > [anatoly techtonik, 2010-05-08] > > > Why not use virtualenv for Packaging applications? > > > > Every single DD understands that shipping two copies of the same file is > > one too many. > > actually, I don't. you want to use virtualenv in Debian packages? Seriously? Let me know when you plan to tell that to security team, I'll prapare some popcorn... ;-) > Virtualenv has been a life-saver for me more than once, Virtualenv is great and I wish every admin would use it instead of messing in /usr, agreed. -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: virtualenv (was: Python talks at DebConf)
Hi Piotr, On Sat, 08.05.2010 at 14:33:39 +0200, Piotr O??arowski wrote: > [Toni Mueller, 2010-05-08] > > On Sat, 08.05.2010 at 10:55:40 +0200, Piotr O??arowski > > wrote: > > > [anatoly techtonik, 2010-05-08] > > > > Why not use virtualenv for Packaging applications? > > > > > > Every single DD understands that shipping two copies of the same file is > > > one too many. > > > > actually, I don't. > > you want to use virtualenv in Debian packages? Seriously? Let me know > when you plan to tell that to security team, I'll prapare some > popcorn... ;-) no, I don't want to use it in Debian packages, but need to use it when I cannot use Debian packages, which is very often the case. But it *will* lead to having more than one instance of a given file on the system, eg. one copy of setuptools per virtualenv. > > Virtualenv has been a life-saver for me more than once, > Virtualenv is great and I wish every admin would use it instead of > messing in /usr, agreed. Me too. Kind regards, --Toni++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100508125046.16241.qm...@oak.oeko.net
Re: Python talks at DebConf
* Piotr Ożarowski , 2010-05-08, 10:55: The only reason I got from Ubuntu for doing transitions outside Debian and allowing Debian to do it later (and forcing us to fix after them) is... "because you are slow". That's quite ironic given the fact that the major inhibitor of the Python 2.6 transition happens to be a prominent Ubuntu developer. -- Jakub Wilk signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Python talks at DebConf
Hi anatoly, On Sat, 08.05.2010 at 07:41:05 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote: > three are used even though only one is default. But there is no > Python2.6 even in backports on Lenny and I need it for python-expect, > to automate my stuff. This also requires explanation to refer people > when they ask. afaik, both kobold and me have backports of Python 2.6. I don't know where kobold's is, but mine is on p.d.o. But it *would* be great to have one via eg. backports.org. Kind regards, --Toni++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100508131555.18278.qm...@oak.oeko.net
Re: Python talks at DebConf
On 05/08/2010 10:55 AM, Piotr Ożarowski wrote: > The only reason I got from Ubuntu for doing transitions outside Debian > and allowing Debian to do it later (and forcing us to fix after them) > is... "because you are slow". Of course Ubuntu is faster, they fixed all the python2.6 bug by disabling the tests which showed the bugs... -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be57c9a.2060...@bzed.de
Re: Python talks at DebConf
Jakub Wilk writes: > * Piotr Ożarowski , 2010-05-08, 10:55: >>The only reason I got from Ubuntu for doing transitions outside Debian >>and allowing Debian to do it later (and forcing us to fix after them) >>is... "because you are slow". > > That's quite ironic given the fact that the major inhibitor of the > Python 2.6 transition happens to be a prominent Ubuntu developer. Not really ironic, but actually quite understandable and human. On Ubuntu he messed the transition up by making 2.6 default too early, and is now overcompensating and messing the transition up in Debian by making it default way too late. It is sad that he has no intention of considering any opinions except his own which is clouded by the fear of making the same mistake twice. -- Arto Jantunen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87hbmi5muj@viiru.iki.fi
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