Re: Suggested Means for Non-technical Users to Realize RFPs (was: Question)
Hi, all, على الجمعـة 29 تـمـوز 2016 22:31، كتب Paul Wise: > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 4:37 AM, ilpwh5p7h wrote: > >> I am writting to ask you if Debian could have in the next release (Debian 9) >> or better before in Debian 8 these 2 programs, presents in Ubuntu Linux: > > If you would like to package those two programs for Debian, take a look here: > > https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers > When I see a request for a package like this, I think it's nice that the user wants to improve Debian by pointing out desirable features from other distributions and hoping we'll include them. Since such users may be non-technical, I was wondering if we could agree on some ways that a non-technical user could get packages into Debian and maybe put that on the project website. The user can file an RFP, but nobody usually has the spare time to take it up solely because of someone's request. Perhaps we as a project can suggest to users the crowdfunding the development of a package, where interested users can pool together funds, enabling a DD or other interested Debian contributor to actually make the package and integrate it into Debian. Caveats to my suggestion: * Debian probably shouldn't be managing this system directly; maybe it could be done with a means like how Debian LTS is handled or using some existing crowd-funding service. My point is that Debian could encourage this practice. * This doesn't take into account the costs of ongoing maintenance of the package after its initial creation. I'm not really sure what to do about that. I'd appreciate any thoughts. This has been on my mind for some time. Many thanks and regards Afif -- Afif Elghraoui | عفيف الغراوي http://afif.ghraoui.name
Re: Suggested Means for Non-technical Users to Realize RFPs (was: Question)
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:23:57AM -0700, Afif Elghraoui wrote: > The user can file an RFP, but nobody usually has the spare time to take > it up solely because of someone's request. Perhaps we as a project can True, but RFP work as a promotion, too. Its not like anyone could claim to know the entire internet, so "even" non-technical users can stumble upon a gem someone more technical inclined would be very happy to package (as (s)he would use it, too) if only (s)he would know it exists. Also, even if non-technical now, that might very well be a good moment to change that. After all, it is for your own good… also most people aren't born as Debian contributors, so that isn't an uncommon path. > suggest to users the crowdfunding the development of a package, where > interested users can pool together funds, enabling a DD or other > interested Debian contributor to actually make the package and integrate > it into Debian. The usual caveats of bugbounties apply: Who is to decide who gets the money & how do you prevent encouraging contributors [even more] to prefer packaging shiny new stuff instead of caring about already packaged stuff. Now it would even make economical sense to upload a package with the intention to let it molder until ftp-masters remove it as unmaintained from the archive as at that point you can collect funds again to run the next update round. If you don't believe that a bit of money could attract such kinds of behaviour, feel free to ask GSoC admins/mentors what they have to deal with… Even if we assume none of our current contributors can be that easily spoiled, for every new contributor you would need to judge the intention and a failure to detect the bad apples incurs a heavy fee on everyone who ends up needing to deal with the fallout like QA, FTP, release & security teams. None of them being on your initial payroll. It is claimed that when reporters asked astronaut Alan Shepard what he thought about as he sat in a rocket ready for take off, he replied "The fact that every part of this ship was built by the lowest bidder". I don't want to say that about our package repository. If you must, fund a person/group instead. Thankfully you can do that quite easily already: Donate to Debian. If you will, Debian even runs a bounty program: Valuable contributions of all kinds can gain you perks like DD status, free access to otherwise expensive hardware, a dependable peer group for social support and even monetary sponsorships in various forms to attend DebConf and sprints. Best regards David Kalnischkies signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Suggested Means for Non-technical Users to Realize RFPs
Hello, على السبت 30 تـمـوز 2016 03:54، كتب David Kalnischkies: > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:23:57AM -0700, Afif Elghraoui wrote: >> The user can file an RFP, but nobody usually has the spare time to take >> it up solely because of someone's request. Perhaps we as a project can > > True, but RFP work as a promotion, too. Its not like anyone could claim > to know the entire internet, so "even" non-technical users can stumble > upon a gem someone more technical inclined would be very happy to > package (as (s)he would use it, too) if only (s)he would know it exists. > > Also, even if non-technical now, that might very well be a good moment > to change that. After all, it is for your own good… also most people > aren't born as Debian contributors, so that isn't an uncommon path. > I agree, but I think these two paths have some accomodation (though they could be made easier-- especially the RFP process), so I was considering just the case where someone has interest, but no time/ability, and no existing contributor has the spare time or interest to accomodate an RFP. > >> suggest to users the crowdfunding the development of a package, where >> interested users can pool together funds, enabling a DD or other >> interested Debian contributor to actually make the package and integrate >> it into Debian. > > The usual caveats of bugbounties apply: Who is to decide who gets the > money & how do you prevent encouraging contributors [even more] to > prefer packaging shiny new stuff instead of caring about already > packaged stuff. Now it would even make economical sense to upload > a package with the intention to let it molder until ftp-masters remove > it as unmaintained from the archive as at that point you can collect > funds again to run the next update round. If you don't believe that > a bit of money could attract such kinds of behaviour, feel free to ask > GSoC admins/mentors what they have to deal with… > > Even if we assume none of our current contributors can be that easily > spoiled, for every new contributor you would need to judge the intention > and a failure to detect the bad apples incurs a heavy fee on everyone > who ends up needing to deal with the fallout like QA, FTP, release > & security teams. None of them being on your initial payroll. > > > It is claimed that when reporters asked astronaut Alan Shepard what he > thought about as he sat in a rocket ready for take off, he replied "The > fact that every part of this ship was built by the lowest bidder". > I don't want to say that about our package repository. > These are all good points and I agree with all of them. > > If you must, fund a person/group instead. Thankfully you can do that > quite easily already: Donate to Debian. If you will, Debian even runs > a bounty program: Valuable contributions of all kinds can gain you perks > like DD status, free access to otherwise expensive hardware, > a dependable peer group for social support and even monetary > sponsorships in various forms to attend DebConf and sprints. > > This is all good, but I don't think it helps the case of someone who wants to see a package in Debian, but can't maintain it or pay for it alone. Of course, in the absence of continued support, there has to be some interest on the part of the Debian contributor to donate time to continue maintenance. I think, however, there are some cases where it is just the original packaging is the major hurdle, where this might be a useful path. In the end, I think it's probably best to leave it to the Debian contributors to campaign for realizing RFPs that they are interested in getting support for. Many thanks and regards Afif -- Afif Elghraoui | عفيف الغراوي http://afif.ghraoui.name
Re: Question
Hello, على الجمعـة 29 تـمـوز 2016 22:31، كتب Paul Wise: > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 4:37 AM, ilpwh5p7h wrote: > >> I am writting to ask you if Debian could have in the next release (Debian 9) >> or better before in Debian 8 these 2 programs, presents in Ubuntu Linux: > > If you would like to package those two programs for Debian, take a look here: > > https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers > If you are willing or able to get involved in packaging, Paul has pointed you where to start for that. If not, you can only file a formal Request for Package (RFP) ticket and hope that someone has the interest and time to take it up, or otherwise convince a Debian contributor to do so. Many thanks for your interest in improving Debian! regards Afif -- Afif Elghraoui | عفيف الغراوي http://afif.ghraoui.name
