Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
As my newest and most recent flame troll I present the following proposal: The Debian Project Leader should be changed from an elected position to a yearly award for the most helpfully active Debianer. At the end of the year we will conduct an online vote and give recognition to the one Debianer who did the most for the project that year. This would promote competition and do away with the silly notion that we all have to follow one Debianer around in our spare time. Everyone knows that the _real_ DPL is policy. Policy is always in charge. Rule by Law, etc. et al The experiment is about distributed control, right? That's the idea with the Internet isn't it? Why do we need a leader? I challenge the next DPL to implement my plan. Who's with me? -- Ean Schuessler, Sinister President of SPI Software in the Public Interest, Inc. A Debian Brand Cabal *This mail contains at least 60% comedy
Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 01:15:02AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > As my newest and most recent flame troll I present the following proposal: > > The Debian Project Leader should be changed from an elected position to a > yearly award for the most helpfully active Debianer. At the end of the year > we will conduct an online vote and give recognition to the one Debianer who > did the most for the project that year. > > This would promote competition and do away with the silly notion that we all > have to follow one Debianer around in our spare time. Everyone knows that the > _real_ DPL is policy. Policy is always in charge. Rule by Law, etc. et al > > The experiment is about distributed control, right? That's the idea with the > Internet isn't it? Why do we need a leader? > > I challenge the next DPL to implement my plan. > > Who's with me? > Ean.. You're 6 days late... :) -- Alberto Gonzalez Iniesta | BOFH excuse #54: agi@(agi.as|debian.org)| Evil dogs hypnotised the night shift Encrypted mail preferred | Key fingerprint = 9782 04E7 2B75 405C F5E9 0C81 C514 AF8E 4BA4 01C3
Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 01:15:02AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Debian Project Leader should be changed from an elected position to a
> yearly award for the most helpfully active Debianer. At the end of the year
> we will conduct an online vote and give recognition to the one Debianer who
> did the most for the project that year.
I think this is a great idea.
However, we should not punish our most accomplished developer with the
endless tasks the DPL has to undertake (like, keeping flames down,
writing endless emails to outside parties, seeing that the people inside
the project work together nicely, etc.), so that this particularly
valuable developer will be mostly lost for the technical aspects of our
distribution.
Instead, we should give this great developer a post which is really fun
to be in *and* does not involve a lot to do!
Clearly, we should make him SPI president!
The good thing is that there are also a number of other positions
available at SPI for whoever comes out second or third in the survey.
Michael
--
{kamion,joeyh} for SPI president!
Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
ke, 2004-04-07 kello 16:08, Michael Banck kirjoitti: > However, we should not punish our most accomplished developer with the > endless tasks the DPL has to undertake (like, keeping flames down, > writing endless emails to outside parties, seeing that the people inside > the project work together nicely, etc.), so that this particularly > valuable developer will be mostly lost for the technical aspects of our > distribution. Indeed. We should find the laziest S-O-B and *make* him become the DPL. That will serve him right! -- http://liw.iki.fi/liw/log/
Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
Il mer, 2004-04-07 alle 09:15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: > The Debian Project Leader should be changed from an elected position to a > yearly award for the most helpfully active Debianer. At the end of the year > we will conduct an online vote and give recognition to the one Debianer who > did the most for the project that year. Oh, no, I don't want necessarily a nerd DPL! :) bye Christian
Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Indeed. We should find the laziest S-O-B and *make* him become the DPL. but I don't want to be the DPL! -- Peter Makholm |According to the hacker ethic, the meaning of life [EMAIL PROTECTED] |is not Friday, but it is not Sunday either http://hacking.dk | -- Peeka Himanen
Debian, Exceptional medication for you!
Hello, young lovers! :)The life of man is a journey a journey that must be traveled, however bad the roads or the accommodation. Debian, searching for a site to shop for medication? We live in a web of ideas, a fabric of our own making.The greater the hold of government upon the life of the individual citizen, the greater the risk of war.It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things. We are able to ship worldwide Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. Go here and get it You are completely anonymous! A conscience without God is like a court without a judge.The great business of life is to be, to do, to do without and to depart.
Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 01:15:02 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I challenge the next DPL to implement my plan. Well, maybe the most active 'debianer' would do more, if (s)he is not DPL. Attending conferences and Debian stuff would be a decrease on the efficiency. Besides, you cannot force anybody to be someone or something: If he wants to be DPL, he will postulate and show work which endorse it. I do not consider this a good idea. Regards, -- David Moreno Garza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.damog.net/ PGP 1024D/356E16CD - 84F0 E180 8AF6 E8D0 842F B520 63F3 08DB 356E 16CD
Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
Michael Banck wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 01:15:02AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > The Debian Project Leader should be changed from an elected position to a > > yearly award for the most helpfully active Debianer. At the end of the year > > we will conduct an online vote and give recognition to the one Debianer who > > did the most for the project that year. > > I think this is a great idea. > > However, we should not punish our most accomplished developer with the > endless tasks the DPL has to undertake (like, keeping flames down, > writing endless emails to outside parties, seeing that the people inside > the project work together nicely, etc.), so that this particularly > valuable developer will be mostly lost for the technical aspects of our > distribution. > > Instead, we should give this great developer a post which is really fun > to be in *and* does not involve a lot to do! > > Clearly, we should make him SPI president! You think it is fun being SPI president? Poor freak. > The good thing is that there are also a number of other positions > available at SPI for whoever comes out second or third in the survey. Then I'd vote for the treasurer. But.. *cough* It's no fun either... Regards, Joey -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are.
The Ineffectual DPL?
I have not voted in this DPL election. I didn't vote in last year's. I think I only voted in the first one, but even then, I'm not sure. So, why have I not voted? 1) Lack of time? The actual act of voting takes no time. 2) Lack of knowing the candidates? Possible. See below. 3) Interest? None. 4) Knowing that the DPL will not actually help the project, and just cause more work? Most definately. Ok, so 4) is going to stir the hornet's nest. Let me explain. In the past several years, I have seen a few different DPLs in (in)action. I have not seen the betterment of the Debian Project as a whole(as a result of actions the DPLs have done), yet each DPL has said how well they have improved the situation. Additionally, each candidate has vowed to improving Debian, yet, in all reality, they will not be able to implement what they desire. As we all know very well, this project is a volunteer organization. There is no way to enforce upon those involved any kind of responsibility. The only responsibility that may exist, is that which each person has placed upon themself. There are countless incidents in Debian's past, where some existing developer has left in outrage, because of either some disagreement, or having something demanded of them(this list is not exhaustive). At any point, a developer can decide not to continue work, and there is not a thing the project can do, to make him(her) continue. Which brings me to the DPL's involvment in this particular train of thought. If the developer that is being asked to do something, or asked to discuss something, is themself not motivated to do(discuss), then there is nothing that the DPL can actually do to change that. Motivation is generally a personal thing. Also, the DPL can appoint delegates, or add memebrs to the Tech. Ctte. The DPL can also make descisions when no one else does, and decide what to do with funds held for Debian. In all honesty, having the DPL do these things is not in Debian's best interest. The DPL can change per year, and there are no technical requirements for the post. I would much rather prefer someone to make these appointments/decsisions who actually knows what they are doing, and have experience doing so. The only way one can get experience, is by actually doing similiar/related work, which shows they know what it is they say they do. Saying you want to do something, or saying you know something, is not the proper venue for building yourself up. The only venue is action. As those who actually do the work, get better and better at it, they become more and more qualified to make descisions based on the work that they are doing. Others, who only observe from the outside, are not qualified to decide how the work *actually being done* should proceed. The DPL, by definition(by being voted into office, instead of earning it), is one of those that should not be making such decsisions. In effect, the DPL is nothing more than a figurehead, that can change from year to year. This changing offers no apparent external view of stability, which hurts Debian in the long run. The figurehead itself may succeed in convincing more users to make use of Debian, but any regular developer can do that themself. The DPL is doing nothing special there. The DPL may be invited to attend some conference, or do some talk. It'd be much better, to have someone attend who can actually benefit, or actually can talk about the particular segment being discussed. I consider these more perks of the office, which make me believe the office itself is a reward, and not a duty. So, in summary(I'm rambled on long enough), I see no point in having a DPL. None whatsoever. And I consider all those, past, present, and future, who are associated with the DPL office, suspect for their motivations in seeking it. I consider them only willing to improve their own situation, instead of improving the actual Debian Project itself. ps: Don't send me replies directly. Chances are I won't read them. Don't expect to see me replying much in this thread. There's no point in me wasting my time. I'd much rather be doing real work, then useless bickering. If you agree with this as I do, then a simple "I agree" will suffice, sent in public reply. Then, start doing real work. If you don't agree, then by all means, waste your's and everyone else's time, by actually attempting to discuss and disect this email. But those who really care about the project will ignore the ensuing discussion.
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
* Adam Heath ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > So, in summary(I'm rambled on long enough), I see no point in having a DPL. Yeah, so, I disagree, yadda yadda. Stephen signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
[Cc'ed only to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have not voted in this DPL election. I didn't vote in last > year's. I think I only voted in the first one, but even then, I'm > not sure. I always vote, probably for the same reasons I vote in my country's elections (mostly to prevent the people I disagree with the most to get into office) and without having any trust nor hopes in the system whatsoever. 8< snip >8 > If you agree with this as I do, then a simple "I agree" will > suffice, sent in public reply. Then, start doing real work. Yet, I fully agree with your reasons. Phil.
Re: Re: Kill the DPL! (Elections are almost over)
No, no. David, you are missing the subtle genius of my plan. Being awarded the DPL wouldn't make you responsible for doing anything, it would recognize what you have already done. This whole silly notion that the DPL represents the opinion of Debianers can just go away. There is only real way to ask Debian's opinion is a GR. Debian is fluid and organic. People package things because they want to, not because a DPL consulted his cabinet and ordered them to. My good friend and fellow cabal member Bruce Perens, for instance, speaks at far more conferences and talks with many more executives than any DPL ever will. He should just be a member of the "Debian Speakers" team, any of whom can be approached for your conference, formal dinner or Baht Mitzvah. Cheers, E David Moreno Garza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, maybe the most active 'debianer' would do more, if (s)he is not > DPL. Attending conferences and Debian stuff would be a decrease on the > efficiency. > > Besides, you cannot force anybody to be someone or something: If he > wants to be DPL, he will postulate and show work which endorse it. -- Ean Schuessler, President of Diabolical Sneakiness Software in the Interest of the Debian Cabal, Inc. http://www.spi-inc.org
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Philippe Troin wrote: > I always vote, probably for the same reasons I vote in my country's > elections (mostly to prevent the people I disagree with the most to > get into office) and without having any trust nor hopes in the system > whatsoever. Voting in real elections makes sense, to stop bad seeds from getting into office. For Debian, the DPL is ineffectual, so voting or not voting really has no bearing on what actually happens.
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 03:12:48PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: > If you agree with this as I do, then a simple "I agree" will > suffice, sent in public reply. Then, start doing real work. The only thing I agree with you about is that actions speak louder than words. Do real work and be happy. Albeit, that wasn't the intention of your post, which I see as largely ineffectual and a colossal waste of bytes. -- Chad Walstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 03:12:48PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: > In effect, the DPL is nothing more than a figurehead, that can change from > year to year. In real life, figureheads are either: [a] inanimate objects, or [b] politicians who are put in place to conceal the real leaders. I don't think either is the case for Debian. What I think you're really objecting to is that debian leaders aren't like military, political or maybe religious leaders. Debian leaders are more focal points for ideas than people who intrude into the daily details of how you live your life. Anyways, from reading the bottom of your message, I've concluded that the stuff in the middle about how the leader hurts debian was what you consider to be "useless bickering", so I'll agree with you that far and stop here. -- Raul
Re: experimental Request Tracker site for Debian infrastrcture available
Joachim Breitner, 2004-04-06 11:30:12 +0200 : > Hi Branden, > > Am Di, den 06.04.2004 schrieb Branden Robinson um 10:59: >> The site is: >> >> http://necrotic.deadbeast.net/rt > > [...] But after a first glance I think that this software is too > complex [...] the possibility to CC: or forward RT mails to the > lists would be quite handy. Just in case that helps: the trackers in Gforge (hint: Alioth) are widely recognised to be simple (sometimes excessively so, even), and they do provide the ability to send e-mails on submission and/or updates on the "tickets". Of course, Alioth suffers from a Gödelian problem if it is to be used for tracking things to do on our infrastructure, since it belongs to it. In other words: if (when) Alioth's down or unreachable, you can't use it to track the ticket that says it's down or unreachable. Roland. -- Roland Mas It would be hard to be deader without special training. -- in Theatre of Cruelty (Terry Pratchett)
Help
I would appreciate knowing if your software is free? I am wanting to study a flavour of Linux but I would like to clarify something first! I, as many people I know are under the impression that Linux is free. The problem is there are so many different brands Im not sure which brand is free? I understand many of them are small companies with little to no support if you do not purchase the software. Do you offer free software with no support? Or do you have to pay for any and all your software? Is it merely your software is cheaper than Microsoft? I would appreciate any feedback. Regards _ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 03:47:40PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: > On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Philippe Troin wrote: > > > I always vote, probably for the same reasons I vote in my country's > > elections (mostly to prevent the people I disagree with the most to > > get into office) and without having any trust nor hopes in the system > > whatsoever. > > Voting in real elections makes sense, to stop bad seeds from getting into > office. I don't think there's actually any evidence to support that. Usually there are no options on the ballot that will have any practical effect on anything that matters. Most politicians react the same way when they're actually in power, regardless of ideals or promises from when they were trying to get elected. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -><- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
Andrew Suffield wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 03:47:40PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Philippe Troin wrote: >> >> > I always vote, probably for the same reasons I vote in my country's >> > elections (mostly to prevent the people I disagree with the most to >> > get into office) and without having any trust nor hopes in the system >> > whatsoever. >> >> Voting in real elections makes sense, to stop bad seeds from getting into >> office. > > I don't think there's actually any evidence to support that. Hell yes there is. There would be even more incredibly dangerous people in the US government than there already are, if everyone thought that. "Oh, it doesn't matter, Bush and Gore are the same." (Well, in that case it didn't matter because the election was *stolen*, but it's quite clear by now that a Gore administration wouldn't have decided to trash environmental protection or doctor all the scientific reports, for instance.) > Usually Maybe usually. But certainly not always! > there are no options on the ballot that will have any practical effect > on anything that matters. Most politicians react the same way when > they're actually in power, regardless of ideals or promises from when > they were trying to get elected. But there are certainly some *exceptionally* bad ones who are well worth avoiding. For another example, those whose promises when they were trying to get elected were *already* creepy and dangerous -- unfortunately, you can't rely on fascists and theocrats to *break* their promises of fascism and theocracy! And we do get avowed fascists and theocrats running for office with significant chances of winning, here in the US. OK, since this is off-topic, I'll shut up now, but I had to respond to this piece of stupidity. -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 10:46:29PM -0400, Nathanael Nerode wrote: > Andrew Suffield wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 03:47:40PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: > >> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Philippe Troin wrote: > >> > >> > I always vote, probably for the same reasons I vote in my country's > >> > elections (mostly to prevent the people I disagree with the most to > >> > get into office) and without having any trust nor hopes in the system > >> > whatsoever. > >> > >> Voting in real elections makes sense, to stop bad seeds from getting into > >> office. > > > > I don't think there's actually any evidence to support that. > Hell yes there is. There would be even more incredibly dangerous people in > the US government than there already are, if everyone thought that. "Oh, > it doesn't matter, Bush and Gore are the same." (Well, in that case it > didn't matter because the election was *stolen*, but it's quite clear by > now that a Gore administration wouldn't have decided to trash environmental > protection or doctor all the scientific reports, for instance.) I'd say that election underscores the point, but anyway: I don't think it matters one whit whether Bush or Gore was elected. The president doesn't make the decisions, he just takes the credit or blame for them. The US has always been run by bankers and corporations; whoever is sitting in the seat, they'll either do what they're told, or be removed by somebody that will. I don't see any justification for your claim that a Gore administration would not have behaved in the same way. In less capitalistic societies, the dominant forces are usually those who control public opinion, but the effect is the same. Democracy is a *myth*, used to placate the masses. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -><- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Help
[outtest outtest] > I would appreciate knowing if your software is free? You can find a clear answer to that in the Debian Social Contract. See: http://www.debian.org/social_contract Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Хитрости ежедневного руководства
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