Re: apt and java
Hi. Omry Yadan wrote: This is all very confusing to new users. It definetely is. I had the same problems a few month ago :-( Having to create a package is kind of awkward, since I just want to install someone else's packages. [...] I know the process of creating the package with java-package, or similar tools may not be hard, but its much more than new users want to do, and it pretty much a thorn in apt-get pretty butt, at least for me. It is really easy. Just download a JDK from sun and install java-package. Then run something like make-jpkg j2sdk-1_4_2_05-linux-i586.bin You'll also have to answer a few questions and accept Suns licence (which will probably make you understand why it's not in nonfree). When you are done, you've got a *.deb file, which you can install with something like dpkg -i sun-j2sdk1.4_1.4.2+05_i386.deb The advantage of creating a package from the downloaded JDK is, that you don't have to bother about stuff like filesystem conventions, package dependencies and alternatives. The package does it for you :-) Of course you can aswell use a JDK installed manually. I'd suggest to install it to /usr/local, but I'm a newbie, too. Read the instructions below, to integrate a manually installed JDK into Debian more smoothly and avoid problems with apt: Le Vendredi 1 Octobre 2004 18:37, Rishabh Manocha a écrit : I have this problem too..apt usually tries to install kaffe when I am installing a java program even though i have sun VM(not thru apt). Like the other day I was trying to install ant and it said that it will install kaffe too and hence I had to abort. Is there any way around this?? If you already have a JDK installed manually, you might want to try the package "java-virtual-machine-dummy"[1][2]. It should provide most dependencies needed by java programs, so apt will not consider it necessary to install kaffe. However I did't test it myself, since i'm using java-package. Hope I could help, Michael [1] http://packages.debian.org/stable/misc/java-virtual-machine-dummy [2] http://packages.debian.org/testing/misc/java-virtual-machine-dummy
Re: apt and java
Hi list! Omry Yadan wrote: So let me state again what I am after: To provide users with the ability to install most java programs seamlessly, today. [e.g. by using Sun's JDKs] Problem here is, that I'm not sure if the Sun JDKs would reach _most_ debian users. It was already stated, that Debian supports far more architectures than Sun's JDKs. However I guess most Dabian users are in fact using the i386 version of Debian. (Are there any figures about that?) And I guess many of them would like to use sun JDKs to run Java programs. [...] I want to achieve it in a way which still pushes the free runtimes forward, and does not make them obsolete. and of course, I want to achieve it in a way which is legal (from sun's point of view), and that is compatible with the Debian spirit. Thats the 'what'. I will not discuss the how yet - I first want some approval for the what part. Basicly I'd give you my approval for the 'what': Though Sun's JDKs are far away from the ideals of free software, they are a good thing and they widely used for lots of free software projects. Moreover, as far as I know the Java industry, alternative Java implementations are rarely used or even known. Probably there are even more users of sun's JDKs, than of Debian. So it wouldn't be wise, to facilitate the use of both - Debian and Sun's JDKs - together? The Problem is, that the 'how' has been discussed a lot already, but that discussion did not yield any usefull result. If there was a way to integrate a Sun JDK into Debian it would already be there. So obviously there is none. In my oppinion, the workaround provided by java-package is an acceptable for today. However it is not documented well enough. When I first used Dabian, I was a bit shocked that Sun's JDK was not included. When I read the Debian Java FAQ, I found lots of information about why it is not there, what the alternatives are and which problems those have. However it did *not* say, that there is an easy way create your own package from a Sun JDK. Would it be so much against the spirit of Debian to give more information about Sun JDKs and java-package in that FAQ? In the long run, it is of course more desirable to provide and support free implementations of Java. My respect goes to all people involved in this effort! Regards, Michael [1] http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-java-faq/index.html
Re: apt and java
Hi. Arnaud Vandyck wrote: Omry Yadan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have emailed sun today, quering if they approve an automatic installer which will get the bin from their site, and execute it - showing the user the license as it does that, and installing if the user approved. I described to them that the user can choose to install jdk/jre alone, or it might be triggered when he wishes to install a java application. lets see what they say. [...] You know, I am not sure sure writing a program which downloads the bin From their site and installing it can be categorized as distributing it. its them who distribute it, and its them who are paying for the bandwidth and storage. They'll have to provide a hard link without authentication. Well, that was the first problem I thought about, when I read that proposal. It's not like Sun requires real authentication to download Java. But the download process consists of multiple pages, and you need to accept a licence agreement. Also the pages seem to be part of some https-session, and the URLs are dynamic and not too human-readable. Nevertheless I think it is technically possible to write a program which gets the JDKs from Sun's download-website. Also the licence the user has to accept before downloading seems to be the same as the one contained in the respective JDKs, which again seems to be the same as shown when using java-package. However, the whole download and licence stuff indicates, that Sun probably does not like us doing stuff like that. So I'm curious what kind of answer Omry will get from Sun, if any. Also, when every packages have been loaded, some Debian users stop their connection and will not be happy if a package ask them to download another package during the installation... I know at least one package (quake2-data) which does download some stuff during configuration. However the user can choose, whether to use a manually downloaded file instead or skip the installation of 3rd party stuff. In the latter case he/she can do the download later, by reconfiguring the package. In my opinion, this would be an accaptable approach for Sun's JDKs. Of course legal and technical issues would have to be solved first. Regards, Michael
Re: Does Debian support non free JVM's?
Hi. So our users seems to need JDK1.5 (or should I call it JDK5.0?) but it's clear it's not free software at all! Also, if we support non free JDK's, I doubt people will test free JVM's and file bug reports against them (and that's what we need more: this simple test case works with non free JVM, but it does not work with free JVM). All these little test cases improves free JVM's a lot to find bugs and things not working as it should. I wonder why exectly the test case under concideration does not work on JDK1.5. Is it because of some flaws in Sun's implementation, or rather due to incompatibility with the new language and bytecode version? In the latter case, I'd say fixing the problems is beneficial for free Java implementations as well. At least for those which plan to support the new language and bytecode versions. I'm not a debian-patch robot. I cannot only apply patch and upload the result packages, I need to test them and if it's not possible, I should not upload packages. I'm doing this with java-package but I can do it in a limited way: only for simple batch patches I can see the result is valid. Thanks a lot, for taking care of that. I understand all your concerns about supporting non-free software. And I understand that java-package is not very interesting for powerpc users. Therefore I appreciate your engagement for the users very much. With this email, I know I'm on the «free software» side, not on «our users» side. I regret this and encourage other debian developers to be on the «our users» side... if they want to. I'm a bit ashamed, that I don't do more effort for that myself. Support for java-package and further efforts to integrate sun's JDKs into Debian should come from those needing it. We should be glad that other people fight for free Java implementations, and let them focus on that. One thing I can do is to look at patches when I have time. So please, «our users», continue submitting patches and bug reports, but you have to know these ones are very low priority. I tried the new version of java-package today with JDK1.5. It seems to work fine. However, I didn't try any fancy stuff yet. I'll definitely report bugs, if I find any. Regards, a user
