Re: Debian and the desktop

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 12:03:57AM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:

> * Joey Hess [Mon, Dec 12 2005, 03:53:02PM]:

>> This kind of disconnect between what an installed Debian system actually
>> does, what some developers think it does, and results like Debian
>> developers passing out Ubuntu CDs instead of contributing more fixes to
>> Debian is intensely frustrating to me.

> Welcome to reality. I remember people saying that boot-floppies had no
> i18n or USB support at all (etc.) even long time after Woody has been
> released. Looks like some kind of mental inertia.

That's because we handle upgrades through apt-get. Force the DDs to go
through debian-installer to upgrade their systems and then they'll
know what it does and not ;)

--
Lionel


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Re: question towards "freetype transition; improved library handling needed for all C/C++ packages"

[Steve Langasek]

On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 11:17:51AM -0500, Benjamin Mesing wrote:

> today I've tried to address the issue raised by Steve Langasek regarding
> "inherited" dependencies [1]. 
> As I am unexperienced with the whole linking and dependency process I
> was not able to deduce the consequences of this announcement for my
> packaging. 
> As far as I have understood the email, whatever is added to the linker
> on the command line (using -l...) is also added to the package as a
> dependency. Is this correct (the depends line of my package is: 
> Depends: apt, ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}
> )? 

> I believe my package is affected by the issues stated by Steve,
> depending on libraries which I do not directly use. Most of them are
> probably pulled in through the QT library I am depending on. My package,
> packagesearch, uses qmake as a build tool. The linking command line
> contains loads of other libraries including freetype (collected by
> qmake).
> In this scenario how should I proceed? Steve's hints seem to apply
> mostly to library packages, and due to using qmake are not applicable
> for me anyways. Should I go with his last hint to use -Wl,--as-needed?

These recommendations are not specific to library packages; they apply
equally well to libraries and applications.  You're right that packagesearch
is pulling in lots of dependencies that it doesn't need.  I wasn't aware
there were any qmake-specific bugs in this area, but I'll take a look and
see what I can find out.  In general, though, qmake seems to suffer from
heavy NIH, so I don't hold out much hope for an easy fix.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Debian and the desktop

[Moritz Muehlenhoff]

Christian Perrier wrote:
> And, anyway, the KDE/Gnome thing is only one of the points I meant
> about the "usability" of our default desktop system, when we target
> our dear Bob User.

This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
"Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Re: question towards "freetype transition; improved library handling needed for all C/C++ packages"

[Steve Langasek]

On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 11:17:51AM -0500, Benjamin Mesing wrote:

> today I've tried to address the issue raised by Steve Langasek regarding
> "inherited" dependencies [1]. 
> As I am unexperienced with the whole linking and dependency process I
> was not able to deduce the consequences of this announcement for my
> packaging. 
> As far as I have understood the email, whatever is added to the linker
> on the command line (using -l...) is also added to the package as a
> dependency. Is this correct (the depends line of my package is: 
> Depends: apt, ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}
> )? 

> I believe my package is affected by the issues stated by Steve,
> depending on libraries which I do not directly use. Most of them are
> probably pulled in through the QT library I am depending on. My package,
> packagesearch, uses qmake as a build tool. The linking command line
> contains loads of other libraries including freetype (collected by
> qmake).

This bug appears to be specific to the QT4 version of qmake; the QT3 version
doesn't add the extraneous libs to the $(LIBS) variable.

A bug report is probably in order.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Debian and the desktop

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:28:28AM +0100, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
> Christian Perrier wrote:

>> And, anyway, the KDE/Gnome thing is only one of the points I meant
>> about the "usability" of our default desktop system, when we target
>> our dear Bob User.

> This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from
> generic menu entries. Most people don't care, which web browser they
> are using and if they're browsing through their application menu,
> they're confused by an entry called "Kopete", while an entry called
> "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more helpful. So maybe menu
> should be extended to keep both forms, so that the generic form can
> be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has turned into Bob
> Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.

Display both forms is even better. Because if you have three menu
entries called "email client" you really want to have a way to
distinguish them. And when Debian / Gnome / ... changes their opinion
on which program should be _the_ email client / web browser / instant
messaging program, the user can still find the one he is used to,
because the he has always seen the name.

-- 
Lionel


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Re: Debian and the desktop

[Bill Allombert]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:28:28AM +0100, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
> Christian Perrier wrote:
> > And, anyway, the KDE/Gnome thing is only one of the points I meant
> > about the "usability" of our default desktop system, when we target
> > our dear Bob User.
> 
> This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
> menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
> don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
> through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
> "Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
> helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
> the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
> turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.

Hello Moritz,

There are several people interested with this.  As far as the Debian menu
system is concerned, I am no objection implementing this proposal.

What is needed at this point is a draft policy defining what will be
the new layout and what will be the generic titles.

However that will not affect the KDE and GNOME main menu, only the 
Debian submenu. 

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Imagine a large red swirl here.


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Re: Report from foss.in/2005

[Jaldhar H. Vyas]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Kartik Mistry wrote:


[4] http://www.braincells.com/debian/


Btw, the direct URL to my report about foss.in is:
http://www.braincells.com/debian/index.cgi/search/item=121

I also plan to write more about the status and future prospects for Debian 
in India when I get the chance.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/


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Re: buildd administration

[Steve Langasek]

On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 03:46:12PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Anthony Towns  writes:

> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 03:51:36PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> >> Anthony Towns  writes:
> >> >   (a) seeing if the FTBFS can be fixed immediately, and finding it can't
> >> >   (b) documenting (this is the transparent bit, so pay attention) that
> >> >   fact by not having s390 incorrectly listed as a supported arch in
> >> >   the source and ensuring it does not incorrectly indicate a known
> >> >   broken build is successful as it did in the past
> >> >   (c) informing ftpmaster that the build currently in the archive is
> >> >   broken by filing a bug requesting the broken build be removed
> >> >   (you know, communicating with people)
> >> >   (d) downgrading the bug so that it is not incorrectly listed as
> >> >   a RC issue that the RM and QA teams have to attend to
> >> >   (e) as maintainer, work with upstream and porters to fix the
> >> >   downgraded but still open bug we were just talking about
> >> I disagree with this.  

> > Then you're not maintaining your packages properly, and you're making
> > life more difficult for the rest of the project out of spite.

> You are incorrect.  I disagree with your approach to fixing this
> particular problem.  I think it is better to keep the package out of
> testing until the problem is resolved one way or the other.

> You have failed to detail any particular difficulty that this causes,

I'm pretty sure I saw him do this already, by noting that it increases the
number of packages that the release and QA teams have to keep track of.
It's great that you're concerned about the portability of the package, but
there are 500+ open RC bugs known to be relevant to the next release, and
1300+ RC bugs all up that affect packages in unstable.  Packages with bugs
in the first category add to the release team's workload of
downgrading bugs/NMUing/pestering maintainers/removing packages; packages
with bugs in the second category add to the QA team's workload of figuring
out if maintainers are MIA, whether packages should be removed from the
archive, and so on.  Bugs in both categories make it harder for would-be
bugsquashers to sift through the bug lists to find packages that they can
usefully NMU.

Also, after a certain point 1300 RC bugs * n binary packages per source
package * 12 architectures starts to look kinda wasteful on the mirrors.
There are 9450 source packages in unstable/main today; assuming
(optimistically?) that half of these RC bugs map uniquely to source packages
that we should consider removing, that's still about 6% mirror overhead from
packages we should be getting rid of, and as much as another 6% of packages
that complicate the process of figuring out which 6% ought to go...

> nor have you given any reason why the package should be added to
> testing in advance of my judgment that it's ready, nor have you given
> any explanation of why you think it's ready now.

If we suddenly decided to release etch next month, what would you do with
this package -- keep the RC bug open because you think s390 support is more
important, or ask for the removal of the old s390 binaries because the
package is worth something to users of other architectures?

How long is it reasonable to postpone taking this action, then, knowing that
such bugs clutter the various tracking lists to the point of making them
unusable for some purposes today?  How long is it reasonable if 50
maintainers are sitting on bugs like this?  If 100 maintainers are?

> You have not pointed at any documentation of maintainer policies that
> indicates that one must clear an RC bug as soon as possible, for
> unreleased packages, to push them into testing before the maintainer
> thinks they are ready.

Rather, it seems much more likely that we would want to push such packages
*out* of unstable.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Debian and the desktop

[Andrew Vaughan]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:08, Bill Allombert wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:28:28AM +0100, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
> > This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
> > menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
> > don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
> > through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
> > "Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
> > helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
> > the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
> > turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.
>
> Hello Moritz,
>
> There are several people interested with this.  As far as the Debian menu
> system is concerned, I am no objection implementing this proposal.
>
> What is needed at this point is a draft policy defining what will be
> the new layout and what will be the generic titles.
>
> However that will not affect the KDE and GNOME main menu, only the
> Debian submenu.
>
On my sarge system KDE already does this.  (Installed from sarge Installer 
beta 1 IIRC).

Menu->Internet->Download Manager (KGet)
FTP Client (KBear)
etc

Not all programs are properly classified eg. Mozilla, Thunderbird, most of the 
Development tools sub-menu, the Debian sub-menu.

Andrew V.





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Re: apt PARALLELISM

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> THis is not something that would bother anyone if it is a single user... but
> if you have 10k users doing that, often close enough in time, well, things
> should get MUCH worse as far as I can see.  If they are doing this at random
> times in the day, OTOH, it would not be that bad, I guess.

That's what I mean. People don't synchronize their updates - certainly
I don't synchronize with anybody, and I don't know of any mechanism
that I *could* use to sync with anybody if I wanted to.

Assume a situation where mirror bandwidth is the limiting factor, and
imagine a world with 3 mirrors.  Say that during a certain time of the
day 600 users each minute start to download updated x.org packages.
Either they can do their download sequentially, choosing a random
server; then their download will be finished in 15 minutes, and each
server has a more-or-less constant 600/3*15 = 3000 connections
active. Alternatively each user can spread his load over all three
servers; his download now takes 5 minutes, and each server _still_
sees 600*5 = 3000 active connections at any time. Thus _all_ users get
it faster by parallelizing. We get the same result if only some users
parallelize - the mirrors do not see a diffence in load, the smart
users get things faster, and the sequentially downloading users get it
no slower than they would have otherwise.

The calculation becomes more murky if there is backbone congestion
which hits more than one mirror _and_ more than one end user. Then he
who opens more connections at a time (whether to one server or
several) will probably get an advantage at other users' expense.

But I don't think that backbone congestion is such a universal
condition that it should necessarily be the only scenario for making
moral decisions about what apt should be _able_ to do.

> Whether MY [a single individual] increased download speed is worth the extra
> load on the mirror network, and whether it WOULD increase the load on the
> mirror network is what we are asking here.

Hm, you are not even asking whether the mirror load would go up? What
_are_ you asking, then?

> (and for the people who can't read whole threads, my position is that we
> should never decrease the experience of a group of people to increase the
> experience of an individual).

I am questioning your assumption that doing parallel downloads will
necessarily decrease the experience of a group of people at all.

-- 
Henning Makholm"Vi skal nok ikke begynde at undervise hinanden i
den store regnekunst her, men jeg vil foreslå, at vi fra
 Kulturministeriets side sørger for at fremsende tallene og også
  give en beskrivelse af, hvordan man læser tallene. Tak for i dag!"


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Re: apt PARALLELISM

[Olaf van der Spek]

On 12/13/05, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Assume a situation where mirror bandwidth is the limiting factor, and
> imagine a world with 3 mirrors.  Say that during a certain time of the
> day 600 users each minute start to download updated x.org packages.
> Either they can do their download sequentially, choosing a random
> server; then their download will be finished in 15 minutes, and each
> server has a more-or-less constant 600/3*15 = 3000 connections
> active. Alternatively each user can spread his load over all three
> servers; his download now takes 5 minutes, and each server _still_
> sees 600*5 = 3000 active connections at any time. Thus _all_ users get

That's not true. Suppose you've only got 3 users. If each user
connects to one (different) mirror, he gets 1/1 of that mirror's
bandwidth. If each user connects to each mirror, he only gets 1/3 of
that mirror's bandwidth.

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Martin Wuertele]

* Moritz Muehlenhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-12-13 10:52]:

> This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
> menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
> don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
> through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
> "Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
> helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
> the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
> turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.
 
So having a menu-simple that only displays the default foo-application 
as defined via the debian alternative system with the option to switch 
to the (current) menu system might be a way.

yours Martin
-- 
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Re: Debian and the desktop

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 12 décembre 2005 à 18:34 +0100, Christian Perrier a écrit :
> Yes, but they don't use tasksel...which is the one installing a
> "desktop" task.

First of all, there should be separated "KDE desktop" and "GNOME
desktop" tasks. Most users don't want both of them installed.

> Here, let's face it: we have no team working on this in Debian. The
> result of a default desktop install for Debian is the result of what
> we get when installing X, then Gnome+KDE and some other stuff.

This shouldn't be a problem. KDE and GNOME teams are providing
metathemes that bring a desktop that should just work.

> -default sound setup

This should be autodetected. This is the purpose of linux-sound-base,
which should address that issue in etch.

> -default wireless setup

Maybe this could be integrated in d-i, along with an interface that
would allow to configure all network interfaces.

> -design of the default login screen

The GDM maintainer has been reluctant to provide a decent default theme
for years. He has just moved, but by making the theme random - which I
don't feel to be a solution. Everything is ready here, this is a social
issue, not a technical one.

> -probably tons of details which, alone, aren't a big deal...but will
>  make the difference at the end.

The real work would be to index all these issues and to find where to
fix them. Each problem isn't that hard to solve, once the necessary work
has been identified.

Regards,
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 12 décembre 2005 à 20:25 +0100, Simon Richter a écrit :
> > -default sound setup
> 
> Sound is symptomatic of a much larger class of problems, namely that 
> there is no system service that forwards resources other than display 
> and keyboard to the user currently logged in. In Unix, the default is to 
> lock people out, so in the default setup there is no sound and USB stick 
> access (the Windows way of allowing anyone to access all devices opens 
> another can of worms). What would be required is some resource 
> forwarding framework in which a priviledged process will pass out 
> handles to sound/usb/floppy/... to anyone who asks via the proper 
> channels (X11 springs to mind, as only clients belonging to the user 
> logged in should have access to the display) or presenting the proper 
> credentials. This would not be a Debian specific solution.

Currently, there are two ways of handling this situation:
- The Debian way, where this is controlled by Unix groups, and where the
default user belongs to these groups. Your message seems to imply the
opposite, and I welcome you to install a sarge system and try plugging a
USB stick or playing sound.
- The Redhat way, using pam_console. The user logging in gains rights on
some devices. The problem is that when the user logs out, there's no way
to force her to release the rights acquired. This is a limitation of the
Linux kernel, which cannot revoke privileges. AFAIK, that's why it isn't
used by default in Debian.

If you want things to move, you should provide a framework for the
kernel to handle a new revocation system call - far from an easy task.

> > -default wireless setup
> 
> This is also related to the clash of the two approaches ("multiuser 
> system with capable admin" versus "single-user personal system where all 
> users need admin priviledge to associate to new APs as they roam with 
> their laptop"). What we need is a solution that handles the in-between 
> cases as well, and it's not Debian specific either.

Some desktop tools doing that exist, but they seriously lack integration
in Debian.
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
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`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: question towards "freetype transition; improved library handling needed for all C/C++ packages"

[Benjamin Mesing]

Hello,

thanks for you comments.

> A bug report is probably in order.
Done.

Best regards 

Ben

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[no subject]

[Gillings, Marcus]

I know this email is 
unorthodox, but I feel strongly that my creative ideas are what Pixar is 
looking for.  First of all, my name is Marcus Gillings.  I have two 
books I like to call "Super fiction" published.  Second, I love 
what Pixar has done thus far.  But there is so much left to do.  I 
think the sky is literally the limit.  I have tons of ideas, here is just 
one:
 

Cazador, an elder Casmon, 
was once considered by the wizards one of the most beautiful creatures in 
the world.  He was 12 feet tall, had 
flowing snow-white hair that stretched down his back between his eagle-like 
wings, emerald green eyes that sparkled in the slightest light, and layers of 
thick well-developed muscles.  
The wizards 
believed he would be a strong ally and an asset to their brewing crusade to 
vanquish the human peasants.  
Nevertheless, they did not know that Cazador was not only a great 
protector, but he belonged to the Ground Stalker tribe of hunters.  They provided food for the Wind Children 
and encountered humans daily as they searched for food.  To Cazador, humans only wished to 
survive; like his people.
When the 
wizards decided to carry out their plight, Cazador searched every recess of his 
heart and could not find a single reason to destroy the humans.  They had done nothing.  
Cazador 
decided to stand up for the peasants, which turned out to be valiant but most of 
all a costly decision.  
First the 
wizards poisoned him to ensure he could not fight them back.  Then they cast an evil torture spell 
over him.   

 
 
Cazador sat 
in his prison at the bottom of the lake known in the wizards tongue as 
Black-Death surrounded by the demons that plagued his mind.  When suddenly over their screaming he 
heard a huge splash.
After 
forcefully blocking out the demons, he lifted his head toward the surface, and 
opened his eyes that are no longer emerald green, but opaque to match his cloudy 
thoughts.
His skin had 
now darkened to match his murky surroundings, his hair was no longer white but 
black and matted like intertwined snakes, and his beautiful wings had shed their 
vibrant feathers.
In his heart 
Cazador felt something he has not experienced in centuries:  the energy of other Ground Stalkers on 
the hunt.  He stood and forced his 
face to do something it had not done in a long time, smile.  
The smile 
instantly morphed into a grin and revenge encompasses his heart.
“I knew they 
would come for me.”  
 
Thanks for your time,
 
 

Re:

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Gillings, Marcus wrote:
> I know this email is unorthodox, but I feel strongly that my creative
> ideas are what Pixar is looking for.  First of all, my name is Marcus
> Gillings.  I have two books I like to call "Super fiction" published. 
> Second, I love what Pixar has done thus far.  But there is so much left
> to do.  I think the sky is literally the limit.  I have tons of ideas,
> here is just one:
>  
> 
[Snip story idea]

I dont see how this is related to Debian development.  Did I miss a
memo, or something?

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: Debian and the desktop

[Isaac Clerencia]

On Monday, 12 December 2005 22:26, Frans Pop wrote:
> - a proper discussion on wether to keep things as they are now, default to
>   "the other" desktop (no, not that one ;-) or a solution where the user
>   is actually offered a choice during the installation (which has always
>   been my personal preference).
I also prefer asking the user, some people argue that the user doesn't know 
about the difference between KDE and Gnome, but I can't see how that is bad.

If a user has a desktop of choice, she will choose the preferred desktop, 
otherwise he will just select both or a random one, but at least will be 
aware of the existance of two different desktops.

Ubuntu does basically that (people has to choose between Ubuntu and KUbuntu), 
and people seem to like it.

Best regards
-- 
Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es
Work: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   | Debian: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re:

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

Roberto C. Sanchez  familiasanchez.net> writes:
> Gillings, Marcus wrote:
> > I know this email is unorthodox, but I feel strongly that my creative
> > ideas are what Pixar is looking for.  First of all, my name is Marcus
> > Gillings.  I have two books I like to call "Super fiction" published. 
> > Second, I love what Pixar has done thus far.  But there is so much left
> > to do.  I think the sky is literally the limit.  I have tons of ideas,
>
> [Snip story idea]
> 
> I dont see how this is related to Debian development.  Did I miss a
> memo, or something?

A looong time ago, in its first incarnation, this list used to be hosted by 
pixar as Bruce P used to work there.  

Dirk




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Re: Solving recursive dependency disease in KDE-based packages

[Nathanael Nerode]

>On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Nathanael Nerode wrote:
>> Regenerating acinclude.m4, aclocal.m4, configure.in, and finally configure,
>> can be a pain in the neck.  In some packages, it's done by

Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
>autoreconf ?

NO NO NO.  That does not work for these KDE-based packages, which is
the whole reason I said it was a pain in the neck.

>   Replace stuff like $(LIBFOO) with -lfoo, and get rid of stuff like
>
>Is not this used to find the correct libfoo in the configure script?

NO.  (Well, sometimes that's a small part of what it does.)
It's used to find all the things which need to be put on the link
line in order to link with libfoo.  Unfortunately it does this assuming
that all the recursive dependencies need to be put in.


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Re: apt PARALLELISM

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Olaf van der Spek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 12/13/05, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Alternatively each user can spread his load over all three servers;
>> his download now takes 5 minutes, and each server _still_ sees
>> 600*5 = 3000 active connections at any time. Thus _all_ users get

> That's not true. Suppose you've only got 3 users. If each user
> connects to one (different) mirror, he gets 1/1 of that mirror's
> bandwidth.

No he won't, because the 14 users who started in the previous 14
minutes have not finished downloading yet. He can get 1/15 of the
mirror's bandwidth.

> If each user connects to each mirror, he only gets 1/3 of that
> mirror's bandwidth.

No. There will now be three new users connecting to the server that
minute, but because all of the _previous_ users have finished faster,
only the users from the previous *four* minutes will still be
downloading. So each of the three new users get 1/15 of the server
capacity (now 15 is 3 users from each of the previous 4 minutes plus
three new users), but now each of them gets 1/15 of _each_ server's
capacity.

-- 
Henning Makholm "We're trying to get it into the
parts per billion range, but no luck still."


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A Isabel tem algo a dizer-lhe

[isabel]

Isabel convida-o(a) a ver um site que lhe pode interessar. Para o efeito clique 
no link abaixo:

http://www.prendinhas.com

Cumprimentos e votos de Feliz Natal

(Mensagem automática enviada a partir de um site da rede PubliServ)


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Bug#210245: bbbike - debian package

[Slaven Rezic]

Package: wnpp
Followup-For: Bug #210245
Owner: Slaven Rezic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

A debian package (bbbike_3.15-1_i386.deb) is now available from:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=19142

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (500, 'testing'), (500, 'stable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.4.18-bf2.4
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C (charmap=ANSI_X3.4-1968)


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congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Anand Kumria]

I'd like to congratulate our ftp-master team on their ability to timely
process packages progressing through the NEW queue.

 [1]

I think you are an excellent example of people who are too busy for Debian.

I must say that I am particularly impressed that you've managed to
frustrate our users for over 1 year with the package 'xvidcap'.

Truly the works of Gods among both Debian users _and_ Debian developers.

If only more of the infrastructure teams displayed your attitude and
dedication to volunteering for the benefit of all Debian users and
developers.

Oh.



As this post indicates, it isn't just the ftp-master team failing Debian.



From the current issues list, most infrastructure teams seems incapable
of acting in any kind of reasonable timeframe.

Either that or the high concentration of particularly reticient
individuals is the problem. Something like that.

Perhaps we should just recall the DPL, change the structure of Debian so
it is an appointed board and appoint those already acting in a
dictatorial manner to it.  It'd be better to outline what current reality
is rathing than continuing with our current charade.

Thanks,
Anand

[1]: As I write this 79 NEW packages, 85 total.



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Re: congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Steinar H. Gunderson]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 11:25:03AM +1100, Anand Kumria wrote:
> I'd like to congratulate our ftp-master team on their ability to timely
> process packages progressing through the NEW queue.
> 
>  [1]
> 
> I think you are an excellent example of people who are too busy for Debian.

...

In my entire involvement with Debian from the development side, I've never
seen the NEW queue being processed as quickly as it is these days. It used to
be irritating to me -- it isn't today.

I don't know the details of the three longest-running packages, but I assume you
asked an ftpmaster about those?

/* Steinar */
-- 
Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/


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Re: congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Jay Berkenbilt]

> [Anand Kumria's sarcastic criticism of the ftp-master team removed]

On the contrary, it seems to me that the ftp-master team is doing a
fantastic job and has been for many months.  They have stayed on top
of the flurry of NEW packages generated by two series of library
renames from two separate C++ transitions, have generally kept the
response times for most packages down to a good level, and have come
forward with a list of most reasons for package rejection.  Removal
requests are also handled in a timely fashion.  These are all vast
improvements from not that long ago when NEW processing had pretty
much stalled.  I think the debian project owes much gratitude to the
members of the ftp-master team whose job is vital to the smooth
functioning of the project but who receive notice generally only when
things aren't going well.  The team works because people like Joerg
Jaspert have come forward and just started helping when there was a
need, and have continued to help in a job in which silence is
considered a complement.  I think that real, non-sarcastic
congratulations are in order.

I'm sure the appreciation I feel for the team is much more common
among the developer community than the complaints of an irate user.
It's also worth noting that constructive comments or actual help have
a stronger track record of improving things than do sarcastic
remarks.  Either way, the original subject of the message was right on
target!

-- 
Jay Berkenbilt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Adeodato Simó]

* Anand Kumria [Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:25:03 +1100]:

> I'd like to congratulate our ftp-master team on their ability to timely
> process packages progressing through the NEW queue.

  Agreed. Thanks, Anand, for reflecting the feeling of (I believe) most
  developers in the project with such a short and concise message!

  Cheers,

-- 
Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es
Debian Developer  adeodato at debian.org
 
 Listening to: Jacques Brel - La Fanette


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Re: congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Sylvain Le Gall]

Hello,

On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 11:25:03AM +1100, Anand Kumria wrote:
> I'd like to congratulate our ftp-master team on their ability to timely
> process packages progressing through the NEW queue.
> 
>  [1]
> 
> I think you are an excellent example of people who are too busy for Debian.
> 
> I must say that I am particularly impressed that you've managed to
> frustrate our users for over 1 year with the package 'xvidcap'.
> 
> Truly the works of Gods among both Debian users _and_ Debian developers.
> 
> If only more of the infrastructure teams displayed your attitude and
> dedication to volunteering for the benefit of all Debian users and
> developers.
> 

Strange, 4 NEW packages processed in less than a week for me. I think it
is fast and not irritating.

So, i really congratulate ftpmaster team.

Regard
Sylvain Le Gall


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Re: congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Russ Allbery]

Steinar H Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I don't know the details of the three longest-running packages, but I
> assume you asked an ftpmaster about those?

Patent issues around video codecs, discussed on debian-devel ad nauseam
over the past few years.  It would be nice to eventually get some
resolution on this, but it's a known thorny licensing issue and isn't the
easiest thing to work through.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 02:00:09AM +0100, Sylvain Le Gall wrote:
> Strange, 4 NEW packages processed in less than a week for me. I think it
> is fast and not irritating.
> 
> So, i really congratulate ftpmaster team.

AOL.

Moreover, they really show interest in what is being uploaded and they
care about looking at what is currently going in providing unvaluable
feedback in many occasions!

Thanks guys!

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity
of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!-


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Re: congratulations to our ftp-master team

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 11:25:03AM +1100, Anand Kumria wrote:
> 
> [1]: As I write this 79 NEW packages, 85 total.

Then ftp-master must be really busy, since it's now 64, total 69.

Also note that most of those packages in new aren't even a week
in it, alot aren't even a day old.

I think they're doing a really good job, even with the number of
packages being so high because of the ongoing C++ transition.


Kurt


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