Re: Bug#93612: Support for new archive structure

[Wookey]

On Sun 15 Apr, Philip Charles wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:

> > CD's may in fact contain content from the Debian site and it should be
> > possible to validate that content was part of a Debian release without
> > having to jump through any special hopps. That is independent of anything
> > else on the CDs.

> It is not a simplification.  It is drawing boundaries.  Is Debian
> responsible for Libranet, Corel, Stormix, and Progeny?  I may be the only
> person in NZ that is offering vendor versions of Debian to the public, but
> there are others here doing this as consultants and in an in-house role.
> I think that you would be surprised just how much of this is happening
> world wide.  Is Debian responsible for these?

> I suggest that Debian's responsibility for the integrity of CDs stops with
> the Official CD images.

> I take great care to ensure the integrity Debian packages included on my
> custom CDs, but in the last analysis the responsibility is mine.  I would
> welcome any additional tools to check what I do.

> CDs are best viewed as an entity of their own and not an extension of the
> Official archive.  Those responsible for the the creation of the Official
> discs keep close to the Official archive structure as possible.  However,
> debian-cd and boot-floppies are very flexible and coupled with the present
> installation tools great and wondrous installation CDs can be built and
> used in peculiar ways. The ability to build these specialised CDs is one
> of the great strengths of Debian.  People need to be involved in the
> Debian CD field to understand what can be done.  Some of the less standard
> ways of using CDs have been mentioned in the discussion so far, and there
> are many more.  Do not mess with this flexibility. If you do then you are
> in danger of destroying one of Debian's great strengths.

I have to say that my understanding of the details of apt, debian-cd etc is
such that I feel I don't have a good enough grip on the details of this
argument to say anything very useful about things should be done.

However this mail sums up my feelings sufficiently well that I feel I should
post saying so. I'm one of those people that produce custom Debian CDs and I
do it because the marvellous tools make it sufficiently do-able that a small
outfit can produce significantly or only slightly customized CDs from a
partial archive.

I am much more interested in still being able to do this than I am in
improving the security. If we can have both then all then well and good. 

If I understand the discussion correctly then all the proposed changes
will still work for someone producing CDs containing a subset of debian
packages plus some of their own changed packages using debian-cd - is that
right? If so then fine. I do like the fact that a CD on it's own is a valid
archive too (I use loopback mounted ISOs too), but I could live without this
so long as debian-CD still makes me customized CDs, preferably without me
having to sign loads of (any) files.

As someone (Philip, I think) said - can someone point to a doc which explains
why change is felt to be necessary? I don't really understand where we came
in...

Wookey
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work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/


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Re: Stable Release plan

[Raphael Hertzog]

Le Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:16:11AM +0200, Martin Schulze écrivait:
> > Also - is there any chance that .iso images or pseudo image
> > configurations could be ready _before_ the release is announced - eg
> > tonight cdimage.debian.org still has no idea about 2.2r3 - shouldnt .isos
> > be part of the release and the release be conditional upon them being done
> > ??
> 
> Please get in touch with the debian-cd list, they should know about
> cdimage.d.o

No, no, the problem is with you. You install packages in the archive and 4
hours later you make the announcement. You need to let one day so that
files propagate to mirrors, send a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
asking us to generate the new ISO with the newly installed files and let
another day so that ISO images have a chance to propagate too. And only
then you should do the announcement.

That said, people who usually create the debian-cd images ? What are you
doing with 2.2r3 ? Please take care to NOT use the CVS version of
debian-cd to generate the images (since I've introduced the new stuff for
signed Release file and so on and it's not yet ready for prime time) but
rather the last package (or even older ... but not too much). Or you may
use the latest debian-cd if you take care to remove manually the rules
*-secured in the Makefile.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/
Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com
Naviguez sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com
Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com


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Re: Stable Release plan

[Martin Schulze]

Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> Le Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:16:11AM +0200, Martin Schulze écrivait:
> > > Also - is there any chance that .iso images or pseudo image
> > > configurations could be ready _before_ the release is announced - eg
> > > tonight cdimage.debian.org still has no idea about 2.2r3 - shouldnt .isos
> > > be part of the release and the release be conditional upon them being done
> > > ??
> > 
> > Please get in touch with the debian-cd list, they should know about
> > cdimage.d.o
> 
> No, no, the problem is with you. You install packages in the archive and 4
> hours later you make the announcement. You need to let one day so that
> files propagate to mirrors, send a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> asking us to generate the new ISO with the newly installed files and let
> another day so that ISO images have a chance to propagate too. And only
> then you should do the announcement.

I tend to refuse to care.  It is already a lot of work and things are
already slowing down and delaying the process.  2.2r3 was "about ready"
for at least one month, that's sick.  Please read the announcement
made for any pointrelease.  If possible build cd images from it.
If not, bad luck.  If you want to have images ready by the time the
announcement is made, prepare images before (the list of files to be
installed was public before).  Call me rude if you like.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Life is too short to run proprietary software.  -- Bdale Garbee

Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.


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2.2rev3 CDs (was Re: Stable Release plan)

[J.A. Bezemer]

On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> Le Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:16:11AM +0200, Martin Schulze écrivait:
> > > Also - is there any chance that .iso images or pseudo image
> > > configurations could be ready _before_ the release is announced - eg
> > > tonight cdimage.debian.org still has no idea about 2.2r3 - shouldnt .isos
> > > be part of the release and the release be conditional upon them being done
> > > ??
> > 
> > Please get in touch with the debian-cd list, they should know about
> > cdimage.d.o
> 
> No, no, the problem is with you. You install packages in the archive and 4
> hours later you make the announcement. You need to let one day so that
> files propagate to mirrors, send a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> asking us to generate the new ISO with the newly installed files and let
> another day so that ISO images have a chance to propagate too. And only
> then you should do the announcement.
> 
> That said, people who usually create the debian-cd images ? What are you
> doing with 2.2r3 ? Please take care to NOT use the CVS version of
> debian-cd to generate the images (since I've introduced the new stuff for
> signed Release file and so on and it's not yet ready for prime time) but
> rather the last package (or even older ... but not too much). Or you may
> use the latest debian-cd if you take care to remove manually the rules
> *-secured in the Makefile.

Sorry for having been this silent. In the past few days I've spent many hours
on getting debian-cd ready for 2.2 rev3 (issues you mentioned, updated/
redesigned README (matching www.d.o but actually better code) and the
long-promised "make-a-useful-CD1" project which involved lots of test runs and
a new unexclude feature). I'm mostly finished now, a few things still need
some tweaking, then I'll leave it to Phil to generate the new .iso's.

The unexclude will be used to move any number of kernel sources to CDx, x>=2;
the source of only 2.2.19 will be on CD1. However because we currently have
10 (!!) kernel sources in potato, it looks like we're going to have a 4th CD
with only 15MB on it. So, unless anyone objects, I think we'd better NOT
have the sources of 2.2.10 and possibly 2.2.12 on any CD (which still leaves
us 2.2.13, 2.2.15, 2.2.17, 2.2.18pre21, 2.2.18, 2.2.19pre17 and 2.2.19 -- and
2.0.36, 2.0.38 of course).


Regards,
  Anne Bezemer
(who still needs to process lots of mails to these and other lists :( )


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Re: Stable Release plan

[Anthony Towns]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:50:36PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> Le Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:16:11AM +0200, Martin Schulze écrivait:
> > > Also - is there any chance that .iso images or pseudo image
> > > configurations could be ready _before_ the release is announced - eg
> > > tonight cdimage.debian.org still has no idea about 2.2r3 - shouldnt .isos
> > > be part of the release and the release be conditional upon them being done
> > Please get in touch with the debian-cd list, they should know about
> > cdimage.d.o
> No, no, the problem is with you.

Another -cd flamewar already? Wow. :)

Really, the problem is that we don't have an internal distribution
mechanism separate to the extern release mechanism. If we release 2.2r3
to the CD folks, it's released the world. We got around this at the
release of potato by everyone staying up at ridiculous hours and getting
lucky.

> You install packages in the archive and 4
> hours later you make the announcement. You need to let one day so that
> files propagate to mirrors, send a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> asking us to generate the new ISO with the newly installed files and let
> another day so that ISO images have a chance to propagate too. And only
> then you should do the announcement.

The annoucement needs to go out as soon as people notice apt-get trying
to upgrade their system so they know what's going on. (As an aside,
Joey's announcement was amazingly informative as far as that goes)

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``_Any_ increase in interface difficulty, in exchange for a benefit you
  do not understand, cannot perceive, or don't care about, is too much.''
  -- John S. Novak, III (The Humblest Man on the Net)

 PGP signature

Re: Stable Release plan

[Anthony Towns]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:45:50PM +0100, lance wrote:
> The other alternative would be to produce an update cd that contained the
> updates from 2.2r2 to 2.2r3 - especially if the update cd could be the cd
> to install from :)

That's not a bad idea, really. A minimal CD#1 that includes all the
changed packages since the last point release (or from the original
release? not sure if there'd be enough space for that, though) and their
source, and that can be installed from (with updated boot-floppies etc)?

(Replies to -cd only, probably)

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``_Any_ increase in interface difficulty, in exchange for a benefit you
  do not understand, cannot perceive, or don't care about, is too much.''
  -- John S. Novak, III (The Humblest Man on the Net)


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Re: Stable Release plan

[Steve McIntyre]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:45:50PM +0100, lance wrote:
>
>The other alternative would be to produce an update cd that contained the
>updates from 2.2r2 to 2.2r3 - especially if the update cd could be the cd
>to install from :)
>
>All I am asking for is enough time to make a reasonable effort at making
>and shipping the version before the next version is released. If you want
>to have interim releases with minor fixes - why not call them 2.2r3.1 etc
>and produce an update iso rather than a complete new set of CD's ??

I've already got code to produce update CDs in the CVS version of
debian-cd right now - I sell Debian CDs too and my customers were
pestering me for this - buying a full set each time gets
expensive. I'd appreciate it if people were to look at it and pass on
any comments.

-- 
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Also available from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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"Tongue-tied & twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I..."  


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Re: Stable Release plan

[Steve McIntyre]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 12:08:17AM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>
>On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:00:41PM +0100, lance wrote:
>
>> If it turns out that the changes take up more than a CD then maybe it
>> shouldnt be a point release after all ??
>
>I doubt the changes run to anything like a CD full. However, an update
>CD is not nearly as convenient for someone performing a new installation,
>to be perfectly honest.

The 2.2r0 to 2.2r2 update CDs I produced didn't contain the
boot-floppies, but apart from that I managed source and 3 binary
architectures on each one - fitting onto a single CD per arch should
be easy.

-- 
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Getting a SCSI chain working is perfectly simple if you remember that there
must be exactly three terminations: one on one end of the cable, one on the
far end, and the goat, terminated over the SCSI chain with a silver-handled
knife whilst burning *black* candles. --- Anthony DeBoer


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Re: 2.2rev3 CDs (was Re: Stable Release plan)

[Philip Hands]

"J.A. Bezemer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Sorry for having been this silent. In the past few days I've spent
> many hours on getting debian-cd ready for 2.2 rev3 (issues you
> mentioned, updated/ redesigned README (matching www.d.o but actually
> better code) and the long-promised "make-a-useful-CD1" project which
> involved lots of test runs and a new unexclude feature). I'm mostly
> finished now, a few things still need some tweaking, then I'll leave
> it to Phil to generate the new .iso's.

Fair enough --- I'll get on to it later this evening, when I get home.

> The unexclude will be used to move any number of kernel sources to
> CDx, x>=2; the source of only 2.2.19 will be on CD1. However because
> we currently have 10 (!!) kernel sources in potato, it looks like
> we're going to have a 4th CD with only 15MB on it. So, unless anyone
> objects, I think we'd better NOT have the sources of 2.2.10 and
> possibly 2.2.12 on any CD (which still leaves us 2.2.13, 2.2.15,
> 2.2.17, 2.2.18pre21, 2.2.18, 2.2.19pre17 and 2.2.19 -- and 2.0.36,
> 2.0.38 of course).

Sounds like a good plan.  Although I expect that means that it will
take several attempts to get them to fit, since this always seems to
be the case if you try to fill CDs to the limit :-/

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
Say no to software patents!   http://petition.eurolinux.org/

Philip Hands.  +44 (0)20 7744 6244  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Alcove -- Liberating Software   http://www.alcove.com/
http://www.hands.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.uk.debian.org/


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Changing image 2.2r2 -> 2.2r3 via rsynch

[Anthony 'Evil Twin']

Greetings -

I am currently creating a set of Debian 2.2r2 cd images.  However, I
would like to actually burn the 2.2r3 versions.  Can I simply rsynch the
2.2r2 images to a 2.2r3 site when they come out?  Or do I have to
make-pseudo-image and rsynch off of the 2.2r3 images?

Tony -

--
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the Man, the Myth, the Legend in His Own Mind -   //~/  ~\\
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  \\~\  ~//
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   is a volleyball.  The 'spike' and 'kill' are volleyball-related.



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Re: woody images

[Dmitry V. Ivanov]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Attila Nagy wrote:

AN> Hello,
AN>
AN> > I downloaded from ftp.fsn.hu::cdimages/debian-unofficial/woody the
AN> > last cd-images of woody, but all the Packages files inside them appear
AN> > to be empty. Is it OK?
AN> Yupp, last week I've changed my machine and forget to install
AN> dpkg-multicd.
AN> Expect the updated images later this day.
AN>
But how can I correct this myself? It's a big problem for me to get about
2,5G from Internet again. :(((

-- 
Best wishes.
Dmitry.
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Changing image 2.2r2 -> 2.2r3 via rsynch

[Philip Hands]

Anthony 'Evil Twin' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Greetings -
> 
> I am currently creating a set of Debian 2.2r2 cd images.  However, I
> would like to actually burn the 2.2r3 versions.  Can I simply rsynch the
> 2.2r2 images to a 2.2r3 site when they come out?

You certainly can.

The way we're going to be moving the kernel source off of CD#1 may
make it slightly less efficient than normal, but it will still work
fine.

Cheers, Phil.


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Re: New SID and WOODY

[Mattias Wadenstein]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Attila Nagy wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've made an error last week so here are the new SID and WOODY CD images.
[snip]
> The mirrors (at least ftp.se.debian.org and ftp.planetmirror.com) will
> catch up soon, I think they have a stronger machine ;)

We now have the woody and sid images.

http://ftp.se.debian.org/mirror/ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/debian-unofficial/

We also have rsync access, but that might be a bit crowded with people
trying to sync their debian mirrors.

/Mattias Wadenstein - hoping that installing the new hardware won't take
too much time


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debian-cd-for-2.2r3 ready (Re: 2.2rev3 CDs)

[J.A. Bezemer]

On 19 Apr 2001, Philip Hands wrote:

> "J.A. Bezemer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Sorry for having been this silent. In the past few days I've spent
> > many hours on getting debian-cd ready for 2.2 rev3 (issues you
> > mentioned, updated/ redesigned README (matching www.d.o but actually
> > better code) and the long-promised "make-a-useful-CD1" project which
> > involved lots of test runs and a new unexclude feature). I'm mostly
> > finished now, a few things still need some tweaking, then I'll leave
> > it to Phil to generate the new .iso's.
> 
> Fair enough --- I'll get on to it later this evening, when I get home.

Finished. My copy of debian-cd for 2.2 rev3 is available at
http://panic.et.tudelft.nl/~costar/debian-cd-22r3/

I hope I can find time tomorrow to check the stuff into CVS, when I've read
enough docs to safely try branching off the Makefile. That's why I'm posting
it on the web for the moment. 

On the same location is the typescript and the interesting parts of the
working directory of my final test run. You can use it to check if your images
make any sense (esp. md5sums.txt). My resulting images:

-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   666783744 Apr 19 23:56 potato-i386-1.raw
-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   678498304 Apr 19 23:57 potato-i386-1_NONUS.raw
-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   665352192 Apr 19 23:59 potato-i386-2.raw
-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   605020160 Apr 20 00:00 potato-i386-3.raw
-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   641851392 Apr 20 00:08 potato-src-1.raw
-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   665235456 Apr 20 00:09 potato-src-1_NONUS.raw
-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   671942656 Apr 20 00:11 potato-src-2.raw
-rw-r--r--1 costar   costar   664254464 Apr 20 00:13 potato-src-3.raw

AFAIK these images are correct in every aspect, except the non-US Contents.gz
files.

> > The unexclude will be used to move any number of kernel sources to
> > CDx, x>=2; the source of only 2.2.19 will be on CD1. However because
> > we currently have 10 (!!) kernel sources in potato, it looks like
> > we're going to have a 4th CD with only 15MB on it. So, unless anyone
> > objects, I think we'd better NOT have the sources of 2.2.10 and
> > possibly 2.2.12 on any CD (which still leaves us 2.2.13, 2.2.15,
> > 2.2.17, 2.2.18pre21, 2.2.18, 2.2.19pre17 and 2.2.19 -- and 2.0.36,
> > 2.0.38 of course).
> 
> Sounds like a good plan.  Although I expect that means that it will
> take several attempts to get them to fit, since this always seems to
> be the case if you try to fill CDs to the limit :-/

I actually had to exclude four kernels, 2.2.10, 2.2.12, 2.2.13 and 2.2.15,
to get rid of the 4th Source CD. For that, I've also added a source-exclude
feature.
(BTW, this is already set up in the CONF.sh of my package, you should only
have to change the various source/destination directories.)

Before running, cd dists/potato/main/source/misc/ in the FTP archive and
  ln -s ../../../../../pool/main/m/mysql/mysql_3.22.32.orig.tar.gz .

And maybe it's better to wait for a good version of the non-US Contents.gz;
I already sent a report to debian-devel but it might help if more people
do ;-)


Regards,
  Anne Bezemer
(who's off to bed right now, for he hasn't had very much sleep the past few
days...)


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Re: 2.2rev3 CDs (was Re: Stable Release plan)

[Bernd Hentig]

> Sorry for having been this silent. In the past few days I've spent many hours
> on getting debian-cd ready for 2.2 rev3 (issues you mentioned, updated/
> redesigned README (matching www.d.o but actually better code) and the
> long-promised "make-a-useful-CD1" project which involved lots of test runs and
> a new unexclude feature). I'm mostly finished now, a few things still need
> some tweaking, then I'll leave it to Phil to generate the new .iso's.
> 
> The unexclude will be used to move any number of kernel sources to CDx, x>=2;
> the source of only 2.2.19 will be on CD1. However because we currently have
> 10 (!!) kernel sources in potato, it looks like we're going to have a 4th CD
> with only 15MB on it. So, unless anyone objects, I think we'd better NOT
> have the sources of 2.2.10 and possibly 2.2.12 on any CD (which still leaves
> us 2.2.13, 2.2.15, 2.2.17, 2.2.18pre21, 2.2.18, 2.2.19pre17 and 2.2.19 -- and
> 2.0.36, 2.0.38 of course).

AFAIK, the only kernels worth having in either binary or source
are (in release order) 2.0.36, 2.0.17, 2.0.19, 2.4.2. All others are
either junk and pretty unstable or useless (at least IMHO).
So, I've never really seen any use in having ancient sources in 
the *distribution* cds and I fear things will become worse with
woody (5 CDs binary installation ?).

Perhaps it would make more sense to build two different "master" tasks -
one for building the installation cds (with everything *necessary* and
stable on them), then some kind of task for "other" optional Debian
CDs - having things like old kernel sources, ancient compilers, compat-libs 
not depending on the stable stuff etc. etc.

Just my $0.02 ;)

Bernd
-- 
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  Unter den Buchen 22E, D-16244 Altenhof, Germany
  Voice ++49 333 63 46 100 Fax ++49 333 63 46 109
  Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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update-cd script and creating r3 update CDs

[Steve McIntyre]

Hmmm. Update-cd seems to be coping fine with the r3 update, EXCEPT
that the resulting images are significantly smaller than the r2
ones. This is somewhat puzzling...

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