Boot Order
Installing either stretch or buster via netinst results in changes to the bios menu. Under "UEFI Boot Sources" the term "Hard Drive" is replaced with "debian" and this entry is put first in the boot order. The PC is: Hewlett-Packard HP Pro 3400 Series MT/2ABF, BIOS 7.16 03/23/2012 Please tell me the justification for putting "debian" in the menu and having it boot first, ahead of CD/DVD/USB. Thanks. - Dan
Re: Boot Order
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:37:02 +0100 Ben Hutchings wrote: > On Fri, 2018-02-23 at 22:18 -0500, Dan Norton wrote: > > Installing either stretch or buster via netinst results in changes > > to the bios menu. Under "UEFI Boot Sources" the term "Hard Drive" is > > replaced with "debian" and this entry is put first in the boot > > order. > > > > The PC is: > > Hewlett-Packard HP Pro 3400 Series MT/2ABF, BIOS 7.16 03/23/2012 > > > > Please tell me the justification for putting "debian" in the menu > > and having it boot first, ahead of CD/DVD/USB. Thanks. > > If there are multiple bootable operating systems on local hard drives, > I think the installer sets Debian to be higher priority than the other > operating systems. > In my case, there are multiple debian installations and the installer positions the last installation at the top of the *grub* menu. This makes sense. But why change the *bios* menu? With the variability in manufacturers bios code, changing the bios menu seems like a risky, tricky, and tedious undertaking. AFAICT it's instigated by the installer and presumably a necessary thing. I've searched for the rationale, but have missed it, if it's out there. Can you refer me to something? > But as far as I am aware, the relative priority of boot entries on > removable vs hard drives is solely controlled by the BIOS/UEFI > firmware. > That just doesn't seem logical. There was a perfectly good priority, before installs of Debian, I think it went: UEFI Boot Sources ATAPI CD/DVD Drive USB Floppy/CD Hard Drive USB Hard Drive Legacy Boot Sources ATAPI CD/DVD Drive USB Floppy/CD Hard Drive SATA0 After installing stretch, it changed to: UEFI Boot Sources debian ATAPI CD/DVD Drive USB Floppy/CD USB Hard Drive Legacy Boot Sources [...] If done by firmware, wouldn't grub or the installer have to tell the firmware to put "debian" in the bios menu and make it first? In its past life, this PC ran Windows 7 but in order to boot from mountable media there was no need for the user to change the boot order. - Dan
Re: Boot Order
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:18:13 -0600 Richard Owlett wrote: > On 02/24/2018 01:59 PM, Dan Norton wrote: > > [snip] > > > > In my case, there are multiple debian installations and the > > installer positions the last installation at the top of the *grub* > > menu. This makes sense. > > Not always. I'm continually doing installs, tweaking them in one way > or another. The last install is the one most likely to "crash and > burn". I solve the problem by having grub installed ONLY on first > partition of my ONLY hard disk. I'd love to see an os-prober which > created menu entries in partition number order. > With your many installs, have you needed to edit the bios menu so that you could boot something mountable? IOW is debian first in the boot order? > > > > But why change the *bios* menu? With the variability in > > manufacturers bios code, changing the bios menu seems like a risky, > > tricky, and tedious undertaking. AFAICT it's instigated by the > > installer and presumably a necessary thing. I've searched for the > > rationale, but have missed it, if it's out there. Can you refer me > > to something? > > > >> But as far as I am aware, the relative priority of boot entries on > >> removable vs hard drives is solely controlled by the BIOS/UEFI > >> firmware. > >> > > > > That just doesn't seem logical. There was a perfectly good priority, > > before installs of Debian, I think it went: > > > > UEFI Boot Sources > >ATAPI CD/DVD Drive > >USB Floppy/CD > >Hard Drive > >USB Hard Drive > > Legacy Boot Sources > >ATAPI CD/DVD Drive > >USB Floppy/CD > >Hard Drive > > SATA0 > > > > After installing stretch, it changed to: > > > > UEFI Boot Sources > >debian > >ATAPI CD/DVD Drive > >USB Floppy/CD > >USB Hard Drive > > Legacy Boot Sources > >[...] > > > > If done by firmware, wouldn't grub or the installer have to tell > > the firmware to put "debian" in the bios menu and make it first? In > > its past life, this PC ran Windows 7 but in order to boot from > > mountable media there was no need for the user to change the boot > > order. > > > > - Dan > > > > > >
Re: Boot Order
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:59:44 -0500 Dan Norton wrote: > On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:37:02 +0100 > Ben Hutchings wrote: > > > On Fri, 2018-02-23 at 22:18 -0500, Dan Norton wrote: > > > Installing either stretch or buster via netinst results in changes > > > to the bios menu. Under "UEFI Boot Sources" the term "Hard Drive" > > > is replaced with "debian" and this entry is put first in the boot > > > order. > > > > > > The PC is: > > > Hewlett-Packard HP Pro 3400 Series MT/2ABF, BIOS 7.16 03/23/2012 > > > > > > Please tell me the justification for putting "debian" in the menu > > > and having it boot first, ahead of CD/DVD/USB. Thanks. > > > > If there are multiple bootable operating systems on local hard > > drives, I think the installer sets Debian to be higher priority > > than the other operating systems. > > > > In my case, there are multiple debian installations and the installer > positions the last installation at the top of the *grub* menu. This > makes sense. But why change the *bios* menu? With the variability in > manufacturers bios code, changing the bios menu seems like a risky, > tricky, and tedious undertaking. AFAICT it's instigated by the > installer and presumably a necessary thing. I've searched for the > rationale, but have missed it, if it's out there. Can you refer me to > something? > > > But as far as I am aware, the relative priority of boot entries on > > removable vs hard drives is solely controlled by the BIOS/UEFI > > firmware. > > > > That just doesn't seem logical. There was a perfectly good priority, > before installs of Debian, I think it went: > > UEFI Boot Sources > ATAPI CD/DVD Drive > USB Floppy/CD > Hard Drive > USB Hard Drive > Legacy Boot Sources > ATAPI CD/DVD Drive > USB Floppy/CD > Hard Drive > SATA0 > > After installing stretch, it changed to: > > UEFI Boot Sources > debian > ATAPI CD/DVD Drive > USB Floppy/CD > USB Hard Drive > Legacy Boot Sources > [...] > > If done by firmware, wouldn't grub or the installer have to tell > the firmware to put "debian" in the bios menu and make it first? In > its past life, this PC ran Windows 7 but in order to boot from > mountable media there was no need for the user to change the boot > order. > There is a description of sorts for UEFI and bios booting in [1] and in the section on "The UEFI boot manager" it says "Linux distributions contain a tool called efibootmgr which is used to manipulate the configuration of the UEFI boot manager" $ man efibootmgr DESCRIPTION ...This application can create and destroy boot entries, change the boot order, ... and more. OPTIONS [...] -c | --create Create new variable bootnum and add to bootorder [...] -L | --label LABEL Boot manager display label (defaults to "Linux") Debian Code Search for "efibootmgr" shows that grub2 code calls it and uses the -c and -L options, among others. I was not able to figure out how "Linux" is replaced by "debian" but it looks like this is what is changing the boot order but I still don't know *why* - any hints? [1] https://www.happyassassin.net/2014/01/25/uefi-boot-how-does-that-actually-work-then/
Re: Boot Order
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:54:22 + Steve McIntyre wrote: > It seems Dan Norton has decided to selfishly make *his* spam problem > into everybody else's spam problem, and I've just had a bounce message > in response to my mail below, saying I have to ask to be added to his > list of allowed senders. I refuse to pander to this - I guess he will > have to do without any help... > Your previous post came through on the list. I guess the problem you're alluding to came because you also cc'd me directly, which was unnecessary. I appreciate your response. Sorry for any inconvenience. > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 04:46:16PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: > >On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 02:59:44PM -0500, Dan Norton wrote: > >> > >>After installing stretch, it changed to: > >> > >>UEFI Boot Sources > >> debian > >> ATAPI CD/DVD Drive > >> USB Floppy/CD > >> USB Hard Drive > >>Legacy Boot Sources > >> [...] > >> > >>If done by firmware, wouldn't grub or the installer have to tell > >>the firmware to put "debian" in the bios menu and make it first? In > >>its past life, this PC ran Windows 7 but in order to boot from > >>mountable media there was no need for the user to change the boot > >>order. > > > >You've been bitten by an unexpected change due to your PC's vendor > >doing crap setup, I'm afraid. For your setup to have worked, that > >means that you had a Windows setup using BIOS boot, but the BIOS set > >to boot UEFI first then BIOS second. If you want sensible dual boot > >with a BIOS-booting Windows, the best way to achieve that is to turn > >UEFI boot *off* in the BIOS setup so you have consistency between the > >two OSes. The installer even has code to check for this setup and > >offer you a chance to *not* install in UEFI mode if it detects traces > >of BIOS-booting OSes on your system. > > > >-- > >Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. > >st...@einval.com > > Getting a SCSI chain working is perfectly simple if you remember > > that there must be exactly three terminations: one on one end of > > the cable, one on the far end, and the goat, terminated over the > > SCSI chain with a silver-handled knife whilst burning *black* > > candles. --- Anthony DeBoer
Re: Boot Order
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:40:20 -0500 lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:18:00PM -0500, Dan Norton wrote: > > Installing either stretch or buster via netinst results in changes > > to the bios menu. Under "UEFI Boot Sources" the term "Hard Drive" is > > replaced with "debian" and this entry is put first in the boot > > order. > > > > The PC is: > > Hewlett-Packard HP Pro 3400 Series MT/2ABF, BIOS 7.16 03/23/2012 > > > > Please tell me the justification for putting "debian" in the menu > > and having it boot first, ahead of CD/DVD/USB. Thanks. > > With UEFI, adding an entry to the boot meny is what you do when you > install an OS you want to be able to boot. UEFI does not rely on the > boot sector anymore the way legacy BIOS did. > > Adding it first makes sense since why install it if you don't want to > use it? Advanced users can always rearrange the order if they want > something else. No way an installer could guess where in an existing > list to insert itself. First is the only sane default option. > > Having a system default to booting from USB or CD makes no sense and > is rather unsafe too. > > Installing windows does the same thing, as it should. > I would hate to have to do something because windows does it :-) No one's yet mentioned secure boot as a justification. AIUI some manufacturers are making it so that you can't even disable secure boot. How will you multi-boot linux and windows, or replace windows entirely with such a machine?
Re: Boot Order
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:40:20 -0500 lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:18:00PM -0500, Dan Norton wrote: > > Installing either stretch or buster via netinst results in changes > > to the bios menu. Under "UEFI Boot Sources" the term "Hard Drive" is > > replaced with "debian" and this entry is put first in the boot > > order. > > > > The PC is: > > Hewlett-Packard HP Pro 3400 Series MT/2ABF, BIOS 7.16 03/23/2012 > > > > Please tell me the justification for putting "debian" in the menu > > and having it boot first, ahead of CD/DVD/USB. Thanks. > > With UEFI, adding an entry to the boot meny is what you do when you > install an OS you want to be able to boot. UEFI does not rely on the > boot sector anymore the way legacy BIOS did. > > Adding it first makes sense since why install it if you don't want to > use it? Advanced users can always rearrange the order if they want > something else. No way an installer could guess where in an existing > list to insert itself. First is the only sane default option. > Why insert itself anywhere in the first place? The machine booted before the installation. To start installing, the installation medium is placed in a CD drive or USB port and the machine is rebooted. During installation, other OSs are detected by the installer. The installer forms the grub menu with the latest install first and the other OSs following. Installer finishes by reminding the admin to remove the installation medium and it reboots the machine. The latest install boots unless the admin intervenes. Where in this process is a requirement to tinker with the UEFI menu?
Re: Boot Order
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 11:41:30 -0500 lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 09:01:18PM -0500, Dan Norton wrote: > > Why insert itself anywhere in the first place? The machine booted > > before the installation. To start installing, the installation > > medium is placed in a CD drive or USB port and the machine is > > rebooted. During installation, other OSs are detected by the > > installer. The installer forms the grub menu with the latest > > install first and the other OSs following. Installer finishes by > > reminding the admin to remove the installation medium and it > > reboots the machine. The latest install boots unless the admin > > intervenes. Where in this process is a requirement to tinker with > > the UEFI menu? > > How are you supposed to get grub to run at all if you don't add a boot > entry for it? The grub is installed by this installer after. > > There is nothing that makes the latest install boot unless you add it > to the boot order. On legacy bios it was different because there you > just put what you wanted into the MBR boot sector and the BIOS was > typically configured to boot from the harddisk. UEFI does not work > that way. UEFI uses an explicit entry specifying which filename to > boot from which harddisk. So an entry is created specifying to boot > the grub_x64.efi file from the FAT partition containing the > bootloaders. > > Now there are some default filenames that UEFI will look for if not > explicitly told, but they are not always supported and most installers > don't use those filenames because it isn't reliable, and the explicit > entry is the official way to do it. > > The installer has no way to tell what else was on your system already > and how it booted. > OK, I think I see. Installer is not replacing something with grub, it is adding grub to the ESP, leaving anything else that might be there alone. Therefore it must make the UEFI menu point to grub. If there is something from windows, etc. there it is ignored(?). In contrast, with the primary/logical partitioning scheme it could just rewrite the mbr and let the user pick alternative systems, if any, from the grub menu. That leaves the issue of boot order, but with all the possible configurations and names for entries in the UEFI menu, putting the latest first instead of trying to parse all that stuff makes sense. Taking a look at what efibootmgr reports... # efibootmgr BootCurrent: Timeout: 9 seconds BootOrder: 0003,0001,0002,,0004,0005,0006 Boot* debian Boot0001* USB Floppy/CD Boot0002* USB Hard Drive Boot0003* ATAPI CD-ROM Drive Boot0004* Unknown Device Boot0005* USB Floppy/CD Boot0006* Hard Drive ...but, if you go into the setup menu on my PC (POST -> Esc) you see some 'UEFI Boot Sources' and some 'Legacy Boot Sources' with common items. However, 'debian' is exclusively in the UEFI list and 'Hard Drive' is exclusively in the Legacy list. One cannot be moved to the other. If 6 were put first in the boot order or made current, it might try to legacy boot windows, but windows is long gone. This disk was cleaned off and several debian distros installed with the GPT and LVM schemes. Thanks very much everybody. - Dan
