Re: I am anti war. You lot support Saddam

[James A. Donald]

--
James A. Donald:
> > And now the guys on this list are weeping big salt tears 
> > about poor victimized Saddam.

Jamie Lawrence:
> I don't care if he got a shave. I do care that the US fails 
> to adhere to international law.

The US army would be wholly in compliance with international 
law even if it nailed Saddam's head to a post in central 
Baghdad with a nine inch nail.  Saddam is not entitled to POW 
protections.  He was running the war effort out of uniform and 
hidden amongst civilians, which has always been a 
shoot-on-the-spot violation of the rules of war, and his war 
effort consisted largely of terrorist attacks directed at 
civilians, which regrettably has not been a shoot-on-the-spot 
violation, but arguably should be.

> I fail to understand why our "war" on "terrorism", which is 
> apparently the mode that drives most of this sort of feeling, 
> suddenly required knocking over a crippled tyrant.

The title of this thread is 'I am anti war.  You lot support 
Saddam"  I don't defend the war on Iraq.  Why are you 
supporting Saddam?

James A. Donald
> > Anyone who wants to argue that the guys in the two towers 
> > had it coming, and poor Saddam is a victim, puts himself in 
> > the corner with the people who are stupid, evil, and 
> > losers.

Jamie Lawrence:
> Anyone who babbles such inane false relations is a dope.

You have just told us that poor little Saddam is a victim. Care 
to give us your take on the two towers? 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 lSPP/JI5XquWeDE9Luo/hkP7TgMrx6R7x088utoG
 4elBeRSFzJwkpZXIuL3j9uEkywuFYbl8gvR7GYjfN

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[Bill Stewart]

At 07:31 PM 12/21/2003 -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> That is quite a presumption there.  "If you're not with US,
> you're with the terrorists",
If you call for the release of Saddam, or you justify 9/11,
as the "anti-war" posters in this thread have  been arguing,
then indeed you are with the terrorists.
Saddam's not particularly related to the terrorists,
especially the 9/11 gang, other than having a common enemy.
He's apparently funded some terrorism in Israel,
but then the Israelis have funded lots of terrorism in Palestine.
He is related to the anti-invader resistance, but that's fair.
He may have been involved in a plot to kill George Bush the Elder,
but Bush had tried to kill him first, with decapitation bombings.
Either try both of them for that, or neither of them, or better,
let the two of them do pistols at dawn.  (Come to think of it,
give enough people that opportunity and the problem goes away.)
(Of *course* I meant give them that opportunity with Saddam, not Bush...)
But making up pretenses for invasion any time people question
your previous pretense is simply unprofessional.
If you want to have any pretense of caring about the Rule of Law,
you need to stick to it even after capturing your enemies,
otherwise you're just an illegitimate tyrant.
(Also, it's nice to pronounce "rule of law" the way Jefferson did,
rather than sounding like Bismarck's speech about "Blut und Eisen".)
That means either letting him go, or finding something to
try him for that you can not only prove, but that you have
your own standing to try him for, or else turn him over to
someone else who has a legitimate case.  Handing him to the ICC is fine,
if you don't think drowning people in red tape is cruel&unusual,
or hand him to the Kuwaitis, but not to the gang who were
lying about Iraqis ripping babies out of incubators.
Or to the Iraqis.
Plus, if you really believed that Saddam was a CIA agent, how
come you are calling for him to be released, or turned over to
the questionable justice of his fellow tyrants and mass
murderers running the court in the Hague?
The US did support Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war, because he was
more in line with their interests than the Ayatollah's gang were.
However, unlike Noriega, I doubt he was a direct employee,
so if they wanted to attack him, the right channel was to declare war,
rather than to just call in CIA Internal Affairs

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[James A. Donald]

--
James A. Donald:
> > If you call for the release of Saddam, or you justify 9/11, 
> > as the "anti-war" posters in this thread have  been 
> > arguing, then indeed you are with the terrorists.

Bill Stewart
> Saddam's not particularly related to the terrorists,

Those who want Saddam released, for the most part also 
rationalize 9/11

He may not be related to the terrorists, but his fans are 
related to the terrorists.

> But making up pretenses for invasion any time people question 
> your previous pretense is simply unprofessional.

The title of this thread is "I am anti war, you stupid evil 
scum are pro saddam."

I do not support the invasion.   I am not making up pretenses 
for the invasion.

> If you want to have any pretense of caring about the Rule of 
> Law, you need to stick to it even after capturing your 
> enemies

This is war.  Rule of law does not apply.  Rules of war do 
apply.  And rules of war say that the US army can not only give 
Saddam a dental examination, it can nail Saddam's head to a 
post in Baghdad with a nine inch nail, because he was captured 
out of uniform, administering the war effort while hiding 
amongst civilians.

> Handing him to the ICC is fine, if you don't think drowning 
> people in red tape is cruel&unusual

Handing him to the ICC is not fine, because the ICC is not 
going to execute him, and because the ICC is farcically 
incompetent, and because the ICC is dominated by the same 
tyrants who dominate the UN human rights commission, who might 
well choose to let him off.

When I see how many people want to get him off, I more and more 
think the the USG needs to kill him quickly.  The longer he 
lives, the greater the likelyhood that his international pals 
will pull him out of trouble, and eventually return him to 
power.

The Nuremberg trials were held in Germany by the victors.  Why 
this big desire to do something different this time around?   I 
don't hear anyone except the usual Nazis whining that Nuremberg 
was illegitimate or unfair. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 ffvNRYuGrbqZTNb8D6gHcU9pscBMBdTQYoiW5UTS
 4RbpAw5ZWrw71na8WBeLsb0wxGPk4N0JFG0QkwH12

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[James A. Donald]

--
On 22 Dec 2003 at 1:10, Tim May wrote:
> I, and many others, were against the war in Vietnam without  
> being supporters of Ho Chi Minh or the Soviets or anyone of  
> that ilk

True, but amongst the vast mass chanting Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh,  
one could no more discern principled opponents of the Vietnam  
war, than one can today discern principled opponents of the  
Iraqi war among the Americans worrying about poor little  
victimized Saddam, and the mass of Europeans jumping for joy  
over the fall of the two towers.

Amidst the pro Saddam posters on this thread, many have come  
rather close to chanting "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh" -- for the  
example the argument that the evil CIA deprived the third world 
masses of their beloved socialism provided by benevolent  
dictators, and the argument that the US "created' the Afghan  
resistance -- and thus presumably every other resistance  
movement against the Soviets.

> Essentially _none_ of them were supporters of the Soviets or 
> the North Vietnamese qua North Vietnamese.)

Now I get to call you the pinko:

They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well  
knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock  
puppet.  And when that sock puppet was discarded to reveal the 
iron fist of the NVA that had been moving its lips, none of  
them were surprised or dismayed.   Similarly Jane Fonda was 
supposedly not a supporter of the North Vietnamese qua North 
Vietnamese, yet without hesitation she lied about the condition 
and treatment of the POWs she met, whom she depicted as 
leniently treated war criminals.  When some of those she lied 
about returned home to speak the truth, she stuck to her 
position, counter attacking them as hypocrites and liars, 
denying that they had shown signs of starvation and torture.

I find it strange that the speakers at your rally were so  
remarkably different from the speakers at my rally --  
particularly when so many of the pro Saddam posters in this  
thread sound like they are new nyms for the same people who  
spoke at my rally.

If any of your speakers really thought the NLF was something  
other than a KGB sock puppet, they would have had posters of  
the supposed NLF leader on their wall.  Instead, not one of  
these supposed supporters of the NLF blinked when the most of  
the NLF vanished in the 1975 purge.


--digsig
 James A. Donald
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 vgi7SNuqDzYgX5I5Cmd4QPW+QLDM2w78B+RO1o8f
 4oxwhPbCXdnYRp30H5XOTLwLfzQyCsQo15VgpDWYW

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[James A. Donald]

--
On 21 Dec 2003 at 13:13, Bill Stewart wrote:
> But this isn't an American war or occupation.  It's a war by
> the Allies, including the US, Great Britain, and the
> Coalition Of the Willing, and the UK and most of the COWs are
> responsible for bringing this to the ICC.

For this to be true, most of the coalition would be nations
that agreed to UN becoming a world government.   Somehow I
doubt it.

The ICC has no legitimacy. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 MVU3HFcf4zBO8SGAeAoleCnLt+ySdaD9K5ITh4lJ
 4HGnXPUOhSyzJ+wUkY0TdY99yKRck7IifD3Hly1iA

Re: I am anti war. You lot support Saddam

[James A. Donald]

--
James A. Donald
> > > > Anyone who wants to argue that the guys in the two 
> > > > towers had it coming, and poor Saddam is a victim, puts 
> > > > himself in the corner with the people who are stupid, 
> > > > evil, and losers.

Jamie Lawrence:
> > >  Anyone who babbles such inane false relations is a dope.

James A. Donald;
> > You have just told us that poor little Saddam is a victim. 
> > Care to give us your take on the two towers?

Tim May:
> Straw man. You keep bringing up the World Trade Center attack 
> as if Saddam ordered it

Not a straw man.  Those who think poor little Saddam was a 
victim, for the most part also think that the US 'created" the 
afghan resistance, and, particularly if they were European, 
think the that Americans had 9/11 coming to them.

Saddam was not behind the 9/11 attack, but he was and is allied 
with those that were, and, the point of my argument, western 
socialists allied with him and them.  Bin Laden, in obviously 
violation of the Koran which mandates capitalism, has taken 
socialism on board, Saddam, originally a secularist, has taken 
Sunni Islamicism on board, bridging what small ideological gap 
there was between him and Bin Laden, and western socialists are 
alarmingly willing to overlook the arabism and islamicism of 
the few remaining socialists in power.

During the invasion of Iraq, most of the arab news feeds, or at 
least their corresponding english language websites, were 
reasonably fair and balanced, while the BBC went over the top 
with Saddamite propaganda.  When I read the Al Jazeera web 
site, most of the entirely over the top propaganda came from 
western correspondents.  Al Jazeera's own correspondants were 
for the most part OK.

The western intellectuals are not reacting to this as a war of 
caucasians vs semites, but a war of ideologies -- German 
originated ideology vs English originated ideologies, with 
Saddam and Bin Laden incarnating Heidegger and Bush incarnating 
Locke.   Very likely Saddam had nothing to do with causing 
9/11, but Chomsky and the BBC did have something to do with 
causing 9/11.

When one sees someone arguing that Americans had 9/11 coming,
he frequently starts quoting improbable "facts" that originate 
from Chomsky, and backs them up with one of the nuttier BBC 
correspondents. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 G+7kcEq4buQwoHeoHjVTqtFSzhPgHya8+qSEMCmf
 4DCEXYnOji1pOndYuB0c/QAbhZbtw9okutswHAyjN

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[James A. Donald]

--
James A. Donald:
> > So in your version of reality, the Iraqi people were
> > happily enjoying socialism, loving the socialism this
> > benevolent dictator Kassem provided to them and then this
> > evil capitalistic CIA agent, Saddam, took it all away from
> > them.
> >
> > If that is what happened, what is your objection then to
> > him being given to Iraqi people for execution?  Why are you
> > calling for him to be released, or to be given to his
> > fellow tyrants who run the Hague court, who certainly will
> > not execute him, probably will not imprison him for very
> > long, and might well exonerate him?

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> You are apparently so wrapped up in seeing this in some
> pre-conceived way, as to not grasp the obvious, literal
> meaning of what you read. Kassem was a pro-arab nationalist,
> who nationalized (as in seized, without compensation)
> formerly foreign corporate oil interests. Kassem was
> ANTI-western, anti-American, do you get it?

Your story is inconsistent.  You tell us Saddam was a
capitalistic CIA agent -- so therefore we should not let the
Iraqis hang him. Huh?

Saddam also was and is socialist, anti western, anti american,
seized stuff without compensation etc, which is presumably why
you are backing him today -- and which makes the tale that he
was a CIA "creation" unbelievable.

> You can, in your ignorance, ignore the well established and
> documented history of covert CIA operations

Your "history" comes for the most part from notorious KGB
agents, for example John Pilger.

>From time to time old archives of the CIA are opened, and
usually conspicuously fail to confirm these tales -- these
tales all being variants of one single tale -- that wherever
Soviet aligned tyrants had trouble with each other or with
those they subjugated, it was all the CIA's doing.

> I also don't understand your contempt of the ICC Hague

Consider the trial of Milosevic.  Either the Hague is
deliberately trying to get him off, or they are idiots.  Most
likely idiots.

Plus if the Hague should ever get to exercise real power,
which its present performance makes unlikely, we would have a
world government, which would probably decide the entire
American population to be war criminals and send everyone to
the camps. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
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 KbRqE7c6EOpNAFJxD8n8roCUXV2WNJo4DkqL0p7h
 4zVatkiNc/ZPba7GUPRigeFpK5jmJrSkpQ/2Y7edR

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[Steve Schear]

At 09:20 AM 12/22/2003, James A. Donald wrote:
This is war.  Rule of law does not apply.  Rules of war do
apply.  And rules of war say that the US army can not only give
Saddam a dental examination, it can nail Saddam's head to a
post in Baghdad with a nine inch nail, because he was captured
out of uniform, administering the war effort while hiding
amongst civilians.
Cite your sources.  The one's I find creditable indicate that at the time 
of his capture he appeared to have been held captive for at least 2-3 
weeks.  He may not have had an option about his uniform, or much else for 
that matter.

steve 

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Humiliating the Conquered, Part II

[Eric Cordian]

If you think it was embarrassing for the former regime in Iraq to see
their fearless leader getting a public louse inspection, just wait until
Christmas, when America again demonstrates it can walk the streets of
Baghdad with impunity.

Yesterday, the crew of WWE Smackdown arrived in Baghdad to set up for
their special Christmas broadcast of Smackdown! "Live from Baghdad."

  "The Smackdown crew with Steve Austin arrived yesterday in Baghdad at 
   the 28th U.S. Military Combat Support Hospital to hand out gift 
   packages to troops and give t-shirts to those injured."
 
  "World Wrestling Entertainment in proud to present a special edition of 
   SmackDown! from Baghdad on Christmas night. Join the Superstars of
   SmackDown! as they have the honor of competing in front of Americas 
   troops in what should be an evening filled with action, excitement and 
   emotion."

Goodness, where are the Donkey Carts of Mass Destruction when they are
really needed. :)

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[Eugen Leitl]

Would you kindly STFU now. Talk about crypto, your politics is flat-EEG.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 09:20:35AM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
> --
> James A. Donald:

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 11:43 AM -0800 12/22/03, Steve Schear wrote:
>Cite your sources.  The one's I find creditable

Debka? Really?

:-)

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[James A. Donald]

--
On 22 Dec 2003 at 11:43, Steve Schear wrote:
> Cite your sources.  The one's I find creditable indicate that 
> at the time of his capture he appeared to have been held 
> captive for at least 2-3 weeks.

Oh come on.

A whole platoon of random troops would have to be part of a big 
conspiracy. Plus quite a few Iraqis have interviewed him.  They 
in the vast right wing conspiracy also?

Or did the US perhaps rewrite Saddam's memory with the memory 
erasure thingy from 'men in black'

Shortly after busting Saddam, the US busted large numbers  of 
people in his apparatus, on the basis of records seized from 
his farmhouse.  Did Saddam's henchmen perhaps not notice Saddam 
was missing because the US replaced him with a double?

Real conspiracies exist, but when you start to see conspiracies 
so large, so well organized, so tightly disciplined, embracing 
so many quite ordinary seeming people, you are slipping into 
madness.   If a conspiracy is large, it is not going to be well 
organized and tightly disciplined.   The communists took the 
big conspiracy as far as it could go, and it did not go that 
far.  It is really hard to put on a big show unless you can 
carefully select your audience for willing suspension of 
disbelief.

If the US was faking the circumstances of Saddam's capture, 
this would be comparable to the bigger potemkin village 
operations that the communists put on, for example Mao's fake 
prison, where only the most privileged got to play prisoner, 
but the communists were utterly paranoid about exercising total 
control of any outsider's access to the set, the actors or 
anyone remotely connected to the actors, and only allowed the 
most carefully selected outsiders tightly controlled and highly
supervised access, whereas the US army has been completely
relaxed about letting anyone contact those involved in the
story. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 mnNGnEuQuzpGASrruKWsKhQzuCnYUai/jQiqorMy
 4qGaSHHsj4ncE7dJt0UcQcaG4v8WQFbg0mZElu6db

Re: SCFMFNG, with eagle feathers

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Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.

[Tyler Durden]

James Donald wrote...

"They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well
knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock
puppet. "
Uh...huh?

You really get a lot of things mixed up. If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB 
sockpuppet then you really don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East 
Asian history. Think of Ho Chi Min as, utlimately, a violent pragmatist...he 
was going to get his guns from whoever he could, and that's what he did. He 
also had Chinese guns and, during WWII, American guns (yes: We were allied 
with Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese during WWII).

Likewise, you accused Saddam Hussein of being allied with bin Laden, which 
is also silly. In fact, bin Laden has regularly called for Saddam's death, 
and I see no reason to believe he wasn't serious.

Likewise, your lambasting of Chomsky on the "Chomsky Dis" website also 
indicates huge and suspicious gaps in knowledge. I'm starting to connect the 
dots here: I dare you to read the name that signs your paycheck.

-TD


From: "James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: I am anti war.  You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:14:20 -0800
--
On 22 Dec 2003 at 1:10, Tim May wrote:
> I, and many others, were against the war in Vietnam without
> being supporters of Ho Chi Minh or the Soviets or anyone of
> that ilk
True, but amongst the vast mass chanting Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh,
one could no more discern principled opponents of the Vietnam
war, than one can today discern principled opponents of the
Iraqi war among the Americans worrying about poor little
victimized Saddam, and the mass of Europeans jumping for joy
over the fall of the two towers.
Amidst the pro Saddam posters on this thread, many have come
rather close to chanting "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh" -- for the
example the argument that the evil CIA deprived the third world
masses of their beloved socialism provided by benevolent
dictators, and the argument that the US "created' the Afghan
resistance -- and thus presumably every other resistance
movement against the Soviets.
> Essentially _none_ of them were supporters of the Soviets or
> the North Vietnamese qua North Vietnamese.)
Now I get to call you the pinko:

They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well
knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock
puppet.  And when that sock puppet was discarded to reveal the
iron fist of the NVA that had been moving its lips, none of
them were surprised or dismayed.   Similarly Jane Fonda was
supposedly not a supporter of the North Vietnamese qua North
Vietnamese, yet without hesitation she lied about the condition
and treatment of the POWs she met, whom she depicted as
leniently treated war criminals.  When some of those she lied
about returned home to speak the truth, she stuck to her
position, counter attacking them as hypocrites and liars,
denying that they had shown signs of starvation and torture.
I find it strange that the speakers at your rally were so
remarkably different from the speakers at my rally --
particularly when so many of the pro Saddam posters in this
thread sound like they are new nyms for the same people who
spoke at my rally.
If any of your speakers really thought the NLF was something
other than a KGB sock puppet, they would have had posters of
the supposed NLF leader on their wall.  Instead, not one of
these supposed supporters of the NLF blinked when the most of
the NLF vanished in the 1975 purge.
--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 vgi7SNuqDzYgX5I5Cmd4QPW+QLDM2w78B+RO1o8f
 4oxwhPbCXdnYRp30H5XOTLwLfzQyCsQo15VgpDWYW
_
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in Orange?

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