Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Bill Stewart]

At 07:55 PM 12/7/2003 -0800, Tim May wrote:
The Libertarian Party started at about this time, in 1972, and nearly all 
of the volunteers, spear carriers, etc. were in their 20s. This is very 
well known.

(And today most of the LP volunteers and spear carriers are in their 40s 
and 50s. A correlation here.)
Yes, and one of the LP's problems is that we've largely turned into old 
farts there also

Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 03:26 PM 12/7/03 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>But even if crypto got trendy again, I just don't see the young
>students of today flocking to our particular mailing list. Too many
>other choices. Probably they'll read someone's daily blog

A few observations.

Nowadays, colleges offer courses in crypto.
This was not the case when I started reading this list.

And 'net social issues were not widely discussed; now
there are many fora and public organizations that one
can look at.  Probably college courses on that, too.

So *perhaps* neophytes interested in these things have
many more places to learn.   Just an optimistic possibility.
I did much like your "the nose rings of the followers" comment
though.

--
"When I was your age we didn't have Tim May! We had to be paranoid
on our own! And we were grateful!" --Alan Olsen

Re: cypherpunks discussions

[Sarad AV]

hi,

I just a pick a book and learn and if i am in doubt,
ofcourse i do have a lot of stupid ones. but thats how
i learn.

I have friends who will help me with my queries. I
prefer not getting flamed like every one else and that
too in quick succesion :-). so my guess is that as far
as newbies are concerned all the discussions are taken
private.

Moreover,there is no loss in interest in cryptography,
we pursue it with our heart and soul.

Sarath.



At 03:26 PM 12/7/03 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>But even if crypto got trendy again, I just don't see
the young
>students of today flocking to our particular mailing
list. Too many
>other choices. Probably they'll read someone's daily
blog

A few observations.

Nowadays, colleges offer courses in crypto.
This was not the case when I started reading this
list.

And 'net social issues were not widely discussed; now
there are many fora and public organizations that one
can look at.  Probably college courses on that, too.

So *perhaps* neophytes interested in these things have
many more places to learn.   Just an optimistic
possibility.
I did much like your "the nose rings of the followers"
comment
though.



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Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Brian C. Lane]

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 16:11, J.A. Terranson wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Tim May wrote:
>
> > I have several theories/conjectures about what is happening to mailing
> > lists.
> >
> > First, a lot of the younger folks--who used to be some of the fresh
> > blood for lists like ours--are not users of mailing lists. I expect
> > some of them don't even know such things exist. For them, IM is the
> > norm. (And IM is mostly an interpersonal, chat format.)
>
> Not true.  I personally run several mailing lists with heavy political
> bents.  One in particular, "antisocial" (the name is a play on a post
someone
> made a long time ago) is vibrant and continually growing.  But they need to
> be nurtured - this is the failing of this list.  We no longer take care to
> bring in new blood.  We have failed utterly to encourage new ideas.  And
any
> new blood which may test the waters with a posting that doesn't follow
median
> doctrine is likely to find themselves and their deviant ideas under heavy
> attack, rather than discussion.
>
> People won't post ideas that conflict with the mainstream (which obviously
is
> different in each unique forum) if these ideas are either dismissed out of
> hand or attacked ad hominem.
>

Clay Shirky has some good thoughts on this in his essay 'The Group Is
Its Own Worst Enemy', found at
http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

[big snip]

I've been on and off the list for years, mostly as a lurker,
occasionally as a poster. Up until last month (or so) I thought the list
had died. I remember that the S/N radio went way down and toad.com was
going to drop the list a few years back.

Some of the list 'goals' have been achieved, we now have good solid
crypt that we can use. We have operating remailers (although they really
need to be more user friendly). For me personally the biggest obstacle
is time. As I've gotten older I don't seem to have the time to focus on
following discussions in 10 different lists, or work on dozens of
projects.

Brian

---[Office 72.2F]--[Fridge 34.4F]---[Fozzy 90.3F]--[Coaster 63.4F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com

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Re: cypherpunks discussions

[Harmon Seaver]

  The web boards (forums) like phpNuke, et al, are not nearly as useful as
listservs. The problem is that you have to go there. So, for instance, for the
lists I admin, if someone puts out an announcement of an upcoming event, and
people don't think to go look at the forum for awhile, they get the annoucement
too late. Not a good thing. 
   Another serious problem with them is that if you don't go there for awhile,
the messages pile up, if it's a fairly active list, and become overwhelming. The
tendency is then to just skip them. You also can't filter out the people you
don't like -- a real drag. 
As for the lne.com blocks on "spammers", that bit me too. When my dsl line
ip changes, sometimes I can post to lne, sometimes I can't. So I just subscribe
to lne to get the spam free postings, and then post to minder.net. 


 -- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Douglas F. Calvert]

Hello,
 I am 23 years old and I am quite proud to be on cpunks. I have been on
and off cpunks since i was sixteen, but I have never been active. I run
a mixminion remailer, get excited at key signings, and I was extremely
excited when I read about the recent development with mental poker that
was mentioned on boingboing. I do not have a bald head, tattoos or
piercings. I am decidely not libertarian, I did not realize that was a
requirement for being a cpunk:) Libertarians do not have a monopoly on
the belief in autonomous individuals and or civil liberties. I think
that the supposed downfall of cpunks has to do with two big issues, none
of which have to do with something radically different about my
generation. No offense, Mr. May but you sound like a stodgy old man
complaining about "the kids these days." You are not the first and not
the last person that has reached middle age and decided that the kids
these days are different. I think that cpunks has dropped in popularity
because of two things:

1. There is not a lot to come here for. 
A quick perusal of the messages that I have archived since Oct 12, 2002
does not yeild a great number of goodies. Despite what you think mailing
lists are still very popular with us "crazy linux kidz" (debian-devel is
quite busy and informative) these days. A large amount of my internet
time is spent reading "personal diaries" but an equal if not greater
time is spent reading mailing lists. I have found that the blogs are
good for announcements where as the mailing lists are for discussion. I
think that a lot of the old cpunks content has moved to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and the various p2p lists. I think that a lot
of the social talk has moved elsewhere because it appears to be a more
hospitable environment, see #2.   

2. This is not a friendly/fun place. 
I don't mind RTFM but I have seen a number of responses on this list
that made me feel like the new middle class italian guy at the rich
WASPy old boys golf club. With all due respect your post about not
forwarding the initial message to other list was telling (and in all
caps). Why not forward a good cpunks message to other places? I thought
we were meant to share? 

I do not think cpunks is dead, I agree that the number of forwards here
that are merely reprints from other lists or daily blogs is obnoxious.
However, I thought that you had a lot of good points in your reply about
the lessig/declan argument (which has continued on lessig's blog if you
care) and it is posts like your lessig post that I am still subscribed.
In light of that it seems crazy to limit who gets to see that message.
Instead of keeping it in the secret clubhouse it seems that it would be
beneficial for cpunks to let others know that good discussions still
happen here. Filters coming in is a great idea, but filtering what
leaves here sounds moronic.

Thank you for your time. I hope that I have not offended you, I have
respected you for some time now. 


As I said I am 23 so take the following discussion about YaF with a
grain of salt. 

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 22:55, Tim May wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2003, at 7:15 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
> >
> >> And, as many have noted, very few of the "kids" today are
> >> libertarians (either small L or large L).
> >
> > When you were a teenager, everyone thought that Ho Chi Minh was
> > the greatest, had a picture of Che Guevera on their wall, and
> > thought the Soviet Union was going to win.
> 
> Nonsense. "Everyone" did not think this. Far from it. YAF was going 
> strong back then.

I have never read or heard that Young Americans for Freedom, or the John
Birchers were "strong" during the sixties. From what I have read and
heard there were definitely some right wing activist groups but they
were not strong compared to the leftist groups. The existence of a
"strong" right wing activist camp seems to go directly against the
notion of the silent majority and contradicts the commonly held belief
that there was a strong politicization of the population during the 60s.

-- 
--dfc
Douglas F. Calvert
http://anize.org/dfc/
GPG Key: 0xC9541FB2


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Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Brian Minder]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 10:37:04PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> When I got censored by [EMAIL PROTECTED] a couple
> of weeks ago I tried to subscribe to these nodes:
>
> Algebra
> Infonex
> Lne
> Minder
> Sunder
> Pro-ns
> Openpgp
> Ccc
> 
> Subscription was successful only on:
> 
> Algebra
> Pro-ns
> 
> Both of thse provided a "who" response on 11/10/03 of
> 
> Algebra 122
> Pro-ns 14

Thanks to John for pointing out that subscribing was broken for the 
minder.net node.  It's now working again.

Thanks,

-Brian

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]1024/8C7C4DE9

Re: cypherpunks discussions

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 07:22 AM 12/8/03 -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
>Other people have made the point that mailing lists are "old tech"
>and I agree.   I don't like the new replacements (blogs, web boards)
>as much as lists, but perhaps that's because of what I used first.

Its not just "the First is the Only Way" phenom.

What's going on is that folks are online all the time now, so
things interactive (web boards, IM) have become more popular
than they could have been in the dial-up past.

The big advantage of email, which was the original "killer app",
was store and forward.  Ie, asych; offline.  IM strikes me as
perverse.  If I wanted to be interrupted I'd answer my telephone.
Email clients of olde allowed aliasing to lists, which predated
(and motivated) mailing list exploders/auto-managers.  They
are still widely used for group-of-friends 'private' lists.  Even
my parents understand Bcc: nowadays.

Yahoo boards have options to use email, and
modern clients manage multiple email addresses.  But
for online folks a board is perhaps more convenient,
since the board is accessable everywhere.  For
home/office/school mobility this is a feature, even
if its regressing to the "PC as dumb terminal" mechanism.

The advantage of eg Yahoo groups (and presumably blogs)
is their moderation; the lack thereof enabled spammers to
bulldoze the commons of usenet.   Inevitable.  Also the
reason why lne.com is the best node.



>Kids these days don't know how to use shell shortcuts either.

Not sure what you mean by that.  "Shortcut" is a M$ term
for lame-ass sym link.


"Remember, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 to pull the trigger
of a decent sniper rifle." Michael Hohensee

Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Marcel Popescu]

From: "Brian C. Lane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Clay Shirky has some good thoughts on this in his essay 'The Group Is
> Its Own Worst Enemy', found at
> http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

"So we're back, and we're taking wizardly fiat back, and we're going to do
things to run the system. We are effectively setting ourselves up as a
government, because this place needs a government, because without us, the
place was falling apart."

Interesting motivation for setting up a government.

Mark

Re: Type III Anonymous message

[Morlock Elloi]

> I've been wondering why I havent seen more discussion on
> wireless networking (802.11a/b/g) and anon/mix /dark nets.
> Is this a subject of interest to anyone?  I am curious what
> kinds of work has been done in this area...

Check the archives.

Wireless solves all crypto anonymity problems for the sender by making them
completely irrelevant - it provides good old physical anonymity.


=
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:

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Re: cypherpunks discussions

[Eric Murray]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 12:21:21AM -0800, Sarad AV wrote:
> I prefer not getting flamed like every one else and that
> too in quick succesion :-).  so my guess is that as far
> as newbies are concerned all the discussions are taken
> private.

This is why the cpunks list has very little new subscribers...
most newbies who post questions get flamed.  Usually by Tim
who sears them for not having read some post from
1992 or for bringing up a topic that was discussed in 1996.

Perhaps if the archives were complete, well organized and
easy to find it would be appropriate to politely tell newbies to
read the FAQ.  But they're not.   It's also not a complete waste of
time to discuss topics that have been discussed previously...
some new information may come from the discussion.  Someone
who is not interested can just skip those posts.  If the list
is restricted to discusing topics that are only of interest to Tim
(or any long-time member, Tim's not the only one) then
only a few people will even be able to follow the discusssion, let
alone participate.

Tim, before you reply, I suggest that you look back through the
last year or so's worth of your cpunks posts to see how many are
the thoughtful incisive kind vs a barage of insults or complaints
that the poster you are replying to is an idiot.

A related problem is the tendency for a number of posters to turn every
thread into an intellectual dicksizewar.   It's gotten to the point where
I don't post much, and I've been _working_ in security for the 8 years
(and on Usenet, where the dicksizewar was invented, for 15).  I can only
imagine what it's like for new people.  Only the most stubborn
will stay.   The list is selecting for obstinance.

On a related note, I do see the addresses of people who unsubscribe,
and they are often addresses that recently subscribed.  


Other people have made the point that mailing lists are "old tech"
and I agree.   I don't like the new replacements (blogs, web boards)
as much as lists, but perhaps that's because of what I used first.
Kids these days don't know how to use shell shortcuts either.


BTW, there's about 415 list members.  LNE doesn't censor, we do block
networks that we've gotten spam from.  Currently we block about 12,000
spams a week and receive another 1500 or so.  We're still on dial-up
(Verizon rural phone service sucks).  Allowing those 12,000 spams
through to process them would make our 43k line unuseable.
Hence the blocking.  I explained this to John in private email, and also
explained how to get unblocked by following a link in the bounce message.
He's refused to do this, prefering to claim that I'm "censoring" him.
Whatever.  The CIA agent reading over my shoulder says that John's way
too paranoid.

I realize that my spam solution is non-optimal but its
the best I can come up with at the moment.

I'm getting tired of running the list.  As it is now it doesn't provide
much value and I could use my time for something else.  Could someone
please set up another node?  I'll send you all my scripts etc.  But I
won't maintain it on a machine you provide, you'll have to do it.
Maybe some of our list members from the government would like
to step forward with some homeland security $$. :-)


Eric

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Re: Type III Anonymous message

[Douglas F. Calvert]

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 16:25, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> Not that there is much discussion, the cyherpunk meme doesn't seem
> to draw fresh blood too effectively. I'm seeing similiar trends
> across virtually all my mailing lists, so I presume it's the medium
> itself that it's in decline.

The following lists thrive:
debian-devel, NANOG, Python-users, linux-kernel, obsd-misc, full-disclosure

The cypherpunk meme seems to be alive in well but split up across:
cpunks,[EMAIL PROTECTED], gnupg-{users,devel},mix{master,minion}

There are a lot of good mailing lists currently. I think the decline
that you are seeing is a fall of the big boys and an increase in B-list
mailing lists. There seems to be a good deal of specialization going on
among the mailing lists. Maybe the politics of cpunks turned some people
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the tech sent some people to god only knows
where you can discuss politics in a decent manner on the net. 


> Both IRC and IM are of course even worse content killers than email.

WTF? Whenever new forms of technology come out established groups always
complain about the mass amateurization of publishing and downfall of
intelligence/literary skills/etc. It has happened from gutenberg up to
the blogs and I have never seen a good defense of it. Does dinner table
conversation kill content? I do not understand why a decrease in
transaction costs is a bad thing...



-- 
--dfc
Douglas F. Calvert
http://anize.org/dfc/
GPG Key: 0xC9541FB2


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[Tyler Durden]

OK...let's say I receive a photo that I expected to contain stegoed 
information on it,  but then find that there's nothing I can retrieve using 
the likely methods or software.

Is it possible to determine that the photo 'originally' (ie, when it was 
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thought about whether it might be intercepted and altered.

-TD

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Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Freematt357]

In a message dated 12/8/2003 2:46:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So, you are free to be "Matt Gaylor, Activist!" and to try to get 
articles published in "Liberty" or "Gold Currency Times" or wherever 
you get published, but I have other things I'd rather be doing.

Preaching to me that I ought to be sacrificing my time for the 
betterment of some skatepunks by publishing in "Piercing Magazine" is 
the silliest kind of altruistic thinking.


No Tim, not altruistic. My reason for wanting you to write is a selfish one. Self preservation.  You are able to tie technology into the bigger picture, and you do have something valuable to say.  You already sacrifice your time in pointless diatribes about the good ole' days on CP-  I'm just making a plea that you do something more useful- 

Regards, Matt Gaylor-

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Re: cypherpunks discussions

[Eric Murray]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 08:31:07AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
 
> The advantage of eg Yahoo groups (and presumably blogs)
> is their moderation; the lack thereof enabled spammers to
> bulldoze the commons of usenet.   Inevitable.  

I've been hearing about blog-spamming lately, and I've
seen spammers attack web boards as well.
Spammers are also using worms to get control of victim's
machines and sending their spam from there.

> >Kids these days don't know how to use shell shortcuts either.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by that.  "Shortcut" is a M$ term
> for lame-ass sym link.

Sorry, I was in a hurry.
History substition is what I meant...  i.e.

% ericm >  mkdir /home/cpun
% ericm > ^pun^punk
% ericm > cd !$
etc.

or any of the hundreds of other history substitution commands.
No one I work with knows any of them; they all either laboriously re-type
or use the command-line editor even when it requires many more keystrokes.
I try to restrain myself from barking out "bang dollar!  bang dollar dammit!"
but sometimes I can't help it.


Eric

Got.net and its narcing out of its customers

[Tim May]

On Dec 8, 2003, at 1:15 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 01:59:26PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
This actually fits in with something Lessig is widely known for, his
"technology-custom-law" trichotomy (*).
(* He may call it something different...I haven't checked in a while.
I was reading some of David Friedman's articles over the weekend and
noticed that he also used the same trichotomy, predating Lessig.
"I'm sorry that Tim is being a bother again. He has a long history of
being obnoxious and threatening. So far, he has not broken any laws.  
We
have talked to the authorities about him on numerous occasions. They
have chosen to watch but not act.  Please feel free to notify me if he
does anything that is beyond rude and actually violates any laws and I
will immediately inform the authorities."

Thank You
Don Frederickson  (co-owner and CEO of got.net, Santa Cruz)
When did Don Fredderickson write this?

-Declan



You can Google Groups for any of the unique text to find it, and the  
context.

Or, here's the thread (search on my name for the exact spot, or go to  
August 22nd):



Searching GG on "don frederickson got tim" is maybe more reliable than  
pasting this URL.

(If you are asking did Don write this on or about the 22nd?, I assume  
so, of course, as this is when this "Kal" nym was foaming and  
threatening to get my account yanked and have the cops raid my house.)

It happened in one of the "movies" groups (rec.arts.current-movies),  
when the thread was on DVD copy protection and the (claimed) illegality  
of making DVDs of movies.

I explained how I was cheerfully making an average of a DVD a day of my  
favorite current movies.

A couple of "nyms" went ballistic and foamed that they had forwarded my  
"admissions" to the RIAA and how I would face civil penalties and jail  
time, oh my!

Then one of them claimed he had arranged to have my account yanked, for  
"violation of the DMCA." He claimed he had sent copies of my "criminal"  
admissions to Got.net, to the RIAA, to "law enforcement" (shudder!),  
and so on.

The owner of Got.net replied to him and the above got posted (not by  
me).

I consider Don Frederickson despicable, and stupid. To not bother  
before understanding the context of the thread and say, basically,  
"Yes, we have narced out this customer to law enforcement, but they are  
just watching" is reprehensible.

The earlier owners/operators of Got.net took the stance that what  
people said on Usenet or on mailing lists was of no interest to them,  
save for a few carefully-spelled-out TOS issues (like spam).

The new owner apparently thinks it's his job to narc out his customers  
to law enforcement and then to tell others who are not even his  
customers that he has done so. Were I the litigious sort, I might  
contemplate suing.

(I haven't quit Got.net yet mainly because I am evaluating options for  
broadband in my rural location. Currently, DSL is about half a mile  
away, so may arrive soon--when it does I expect I will get it.  
Cablemodem is available to the top of my hill, but not down my long  
driveway, and the cable company will not allow me to either string my  
own lines or mount a WiFi or IR or similar atop the telephone pole. (My  
utilities are underground, but were laid when the house was built,  
circa 1976. No cable lines. Which is one reason I got a satellite dish,  
DirecTV, shortly after moving in. And, yes, I have looked at satellite  
broadband options like DirectLink...not impressive at all.)  And the  
"Pringles can" approach is not something I want to spend my time  
engineering or debugging.)

My hunch is that Frederickson and Got.net have been forwarding copies  
of some of my e-mail to "law enforcement," which would have put them in  
violation of the ECPA, except that after 9/11 and the Patriot Act and  
all these actions are now considered just good corporate citizenship.

--Tim May

Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Tim May]

On Dec 8, 2003, at 12:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 12/8/2003 2:46:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So, you are free to be "Matt Gaylor, Activist!" and to try to get
articles published in "Liberty" or "Gold Currency Times" or wherever
you get published, but I have other things I'd rather be doing.
Preaching to me that I ought to be sacrificing my time for the
betterment of some skatepunks by publishing in "Piercing Magazine" is
the silliest kind of altruistic thinking.
No Tim, not altruistic. My reason for wanting you to write is a 
selfish one.
Self preservation.  You are able to tie technology into the bigger 
picture,
and you do have something valuable to say.  You already sacrifice your 
time in
pointless diatribes about the good ole' days on CP-  I'm just making a 
plea
that you do something more useful-

You need to read my long, long essay in "True Names," then. This is 
more widely available than anything I would waste my time doing for 
"Body Peircing" or "Skate," even if I wanted to.

As for writing for "Reason," they haven't asked, and their editorial 
focus is increasingly statist. Cf. Cathy Young's quote at the bottom of 
this post.

As for my diatribes here, the references to the archives and to how 
Sarath shouldn't be posting homework questions and all, well, these 
take very, very little of my time.

I spend much more time trying to get XEmacs to do a smarter job of 
recognizing Haskell keywords!

(And thinking how the integrated development environment I had nearly 
20 years ago with my Symbolics Lisp Machine, with integrated debuggers, 
browsers, inspectors, and an editor (Zmacs) was so far ahead of 
anything I can now get with any combination of Emacs, XEmacs, OCaml, 
Mozart/Oz, or Haskell. The one good and integrated environment I have, 
that is not proprietary to some company, is Squeak, the Smalltalk 
environment. But for various reasons I am not doing Squeak at this 
time...lazy evaluation is the kind of executable mathematics that is 
where it's at, as we old farts used to say.)

More will change, and _has_ changed, by writing code than by trying to 
convince the nosering set that they should be learning Perl or Python. 
And it's not as if there isn't a vast sea of material already out there 
at everyone's fingertips!

One of the reasons I don't place high value on writing "new" articles 
anymore, unless new topics come up, is that I believe strongly that an 
article written a year ago, or five years ago, is just as meaningful as 
a "current" article (which may actually have been written earlier, pace 
the usual delays). This is closely-related to my reaction to people 
attempting to predict "future" stock prices: I'm more interested--to 
the extent I ever am in such schemes--in the behavior on past series, 
which can then be quickly tested. A subtle point, but an important one.

So if I get interested in some topic--let's pick Haskell and crypto, to 
stick with this example--I will spend literally several hours per day 
for several weeks reading from the vast number of articles and postings 
which have been written on the subjects. This search takes me off into 
a bunch of different directions.

And this is the way to do it, not get on sci.crypt and ask some 
question like "Hey, has anyone ever tried Haskell here?" And not 
getting on the Haskell mailing list and asking if anyone has every used 
it for crypto. The answers are already out there, possibly a few months 
old, but so what?

Now when we started (ObOldFartMode: On), no one had much discussed 
things like "the dining cryptographers problem." So people like me and 
Hal Finney and a few others spent many hours a week writing articles 
linking the problem to things like digital money and anonymous 
remailers.

Why should any of us rewrite those same articles today?

(I also spent many thousands of hours working on the FAQ which 
everybody else was complaining about but which no one who volunteered 
to do it was either qualified to do it or was committed enough to get 
beyond the usual two-page kind of summary. My version, the one I chose 
to write, I dubbed the Cyphernomicon. It is widely available and Google 
has no problem finding parts of it. One need not even download and read 
the whole thing. Just type in something like "timed-release crypto" and 
off you go. Those who want it, can get it. Those who still don't know 
how to use Google or other engines are preterite anyway.)

I'm not sure what it is Matt thinks I need to be doing for the good of 
the herd. Writing a weekly column in "Newsweek" so that the great 
unwashed masses will learn about the importance of crypto? Writing a 
monthly column in "Skatepunk" or in Starbucks' in-house newsletter 
about prime numbers and bit commitment?

Laughable, for various reasons.

News flash: I have no desire to write on a deadline. I write when I 
feel like writing. And a good chunk of what I write gets spidered by 
Google. What can be 

RE: Got.net and its narcing out of its customers

[Tyler Durden]

Tim May wrote...

"I consider Don Frederickson despicable, and stupid. To not bother  before 
understanding the context of the thread and say, basically,  "Yes, we have 
narced out this customer to law enforcement, but they are  just watching" is 
reprehensible."

Well, I saw the got.net quote before and that brief sample seemed to 
indicate something entirely different to me. First of all, it says they've 
'talked to the authorities about him' seems allows for the possibility of 
having been contacted BY said authorities. Second, it points out "he hasn't 
broken any laws"...third it says "please notify me when he actually breaks 
the law..."...that's kind of a nice, business-smart "fuck off" as I see it.

In other words, the guy seems to acknowledge that he doesn't like a lot of 
Tim May's philosophies, but he won't even think about doing anything unless 
Mr May personally murders someone or whatever. In other words, he's saying 
he's going to support Tim May's free speech, but he's saying it in a way 
that won't cause him to end up in Guantanamo.

But then again, that's the only quote I've seen...

-TD



From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Got.net and its narcing out of its customers
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:17:22 -0800
On Dec 8, 2003, at 1:15 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 01:59:26PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
This actually fits in with something Lessig is widely known for, his
"technology-custom-law" trichotomy (*).
(* He may call it something different...I haven't checked in a while.
I was reading some of David Friedman's articles over the weekend and
noticed that he also used the same trichotomy, predating Lessig.
"I'm sorry that Tim is being a bother again. He has a long history of
being obnoxious and threatening. So far, he has not broken any laws.  We
have talked to the authorities about him on numerous occasions. They
have chosen to watch but not act.  Please feel free to notify me if he
does anything that is beyond rude and actually violates any laws and I
will immediately inform the authorities."
Thank You
Don Frederickson  (co-owner and CEO of got.net, Santa Cruz)
When did Don Fredderickson write this?

-Declan



You can Google Groups for any of the unique text to find it, and the  
context.

Or, here's the thread (search on my name for the exact spot, or go to  
August 22nd):



Searching GG on "don frederickson got tim" is maybe more reliable than  
pasting this URL.

(If you are asking did Don write this on or about the 22nd?, I assume  so, 
of course, as this is when this "Kal" nym was foaming and  threatening to 
get my account yanked and have the cops raid my house.)

It happened in one of the "movies" groups (rec.arts.current-movies),  when 
the thread was on DVD copy protection and the (claimed) illegality  of 
making DVDs of movies.

I explained how I was cheerfully making an average of a DVD a day of my  
favorite current movies.

A couple of "nyms" went ballistic and foamed that they had forwarded my  
"admissions" to the RIAA and how I would face civil penalties and jail  
time, oh my!

Then one of them claimed he had arranged to have my account yanked, for  
"violation of the DMCA." He claimed he had sent copies of my "criminal"  
admissions to Got.net, to the RIAA, to "law enforcement" (shudder!),  and 
so on.

The owner of Got.net replied to him and the above got posted (not by  me).

I consider Don Frederickson despicable, and stupid. To not bother  before 
understanding the context of the thread and say, basically,  "Yes, we have 
narced out this customer to law enforcement, but they are  just watching" 
is reprehensible.

The earlier owners/operators of Got.net took the stance that what  people 
said on Usenet or on mailing lists was of no interest to them,  save for a 
few carefully-spelled-out TOS issues (like spam).

The new owner apparently thinks it's his job to narc out his customers  to 
law enforcement and then to tell others who are not even his  customers 
that he has done so. Were I the litigious sort, I might  contemplate suing.

(I haven't quit Got.net yet mainly because I am evaluating options for  
broadband in my rural location. Currently, DSL is about half a mile  away, 
so may arrive soon--when it does I expect I will get it.  Cablemodem is 
available to the top of my hill, but not down my long  driveway, and the 
cable company will not allow me to either string my  own lines or mount a 
WiFi or IR or similar atop the telephone pole. (My  utilities are 
underground, but were laid when the house was built,  circa 1976. No cable 
lines. Which 

Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[James A. Donald]

--
Tim May:
> >> And, as many have noted, very few of the "kids" today are 
> >> libertarians (either small L or large L).

James A. Donald:
> > When you were a teenager, everyone thought that Ho Chi Minh 
> > was the greatest, had a picture of Che Guevera on their 
> > wall, and thought the Soviet Union was going to win.

Tim May
> Nonsense. "Everyone" did not think this. Far from it. YAF was 
> going strong back then.

Well, not everyone, but that was surely the way the wind was 
blowing. The Che Guevera poster symbolizes that era.

In "austin powers", they make the spy sound sixties by 
depicting him as expecting the victory of the Soviet Union, and 
perhaps rather favoring that outcome.   If they had him quote 
Ayn Rand, he would not have sounded sixties.

When the mass media want to cash in on nostalgia for the 
sixties and early seventies, it is the young commies they 
remember.

> Still think most of the baldies of today, with rings through 
> their noses, marching against Coca Cola and Intel and Big 
> Business, and arguing for affirmative action are "more 
> libertarian"?

Go to the mall:  observe the mall rats.   See any baldies or
nose rings? (Come to think of it, you probably would, but I do
not.)

Nip down to that park in San Jose where all the young people
get their drugs.  See any baldies or nose rings?

You are further out of it than Doonesbury.

The leadership of the Death-to-coca-cola crowd are old farts. 
These days Chomsky needs an interpeter.  The 
could-pass-as-young pinko activists of the sixties are still in 
the business as old fart pinko activists of today.   And if the 
same is true of the libertarian party, well it has been walking 
dead for some considerable time, but its death does not reflect 
the health of libertarianism. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 kHn9sx1THFU+pOMZQFj1k0jU7RnUtA877TClsJYB
 4KSl9qDarOhEujymWANpT3Le2YbPsr5NOMfIblUzm

Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[James A. Donald]

--
On 7 Dec 2003 at 21:06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> many here likely would not be happy if I called myself
> libertarian, because I feel that corporations are titanic
> forces unfriendly to the vast majority of human beings and
> unworthy of human liberty.

Everyone agrees that big corporations are oppressive,
bureaucratic, inefficient, etc.   No one more so than the
management advisers to big corporations.

Trouble is when you say they are unworthy of liberty, the
implication is let us transfer power to something a great deal
bigger.

This is the "big tobacco' rhetoric -- a restriction supposedly
on corporations must always necessarily manifest as
restrictions on individual people, and usually, as in the case
of the "big tobacco' rhetoric, it was quite obviously the
intent of those using this rhetoric to impose restrictions on
individual people.  Those using this rhetoric believe they know
better than other people what is good for those other people,
and intend to whack those other people for their own good.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 h0PDSIpmiXP6g+EXs3how/E0TY9et8gJKr2+nS0w
 4z3+n+3NXrRvBDk0BaUUE8TzqII22OrrXWgqmSfhP

Re: Got.net and its narcing out of its customers

[James A. Donald]

On 8 Dec 2003 at 13:17, Tim May wrote:

> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF
> -8&safe=off&threadm=220820032357238678%25timcmay%40removethis.got.net&
> rn um=1&prev=/
> groups%3Fq%3Dfrederickson%2Bgot%2Btim%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_en%26ie%3D
> UT F-8%26oe%3DUTF
> -8%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3D220820032357238678%2525timcmay%2540removethis
> .g ot.net%26rnum%3D1>
> 
> Searching GG on "don frederickson got tim" is maybe more reliable than
> pasting this URL.

For long urls, compress with tinuyurl.com

http://tinyurl.com/yc3s

Marijuana once again legal in Ontario, Canada

[Tim Meehan]

An unforeseen consequence of government incompetence.

http://ontario.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=25324

TORONTO - Ontario Consumers for Safe Access to Recreational Cannabis is happy to
inform consumers that, because of Health Canada's failure to implement
constitutional Medical Marijuana Access Regulations, wide-open marijuana
legalization is back in Ontario! 

"The police will likely still have their 'business as usual' public relations
line, but since Health Canada has defied the order of the Ontario Court of
Appeal by not allowing a grower to supply multiple patients, as ordered, the
MMAR is unconstitutional," said Tim Meehan, communications director of OCSARC. 

"Because it's unconstitutional, that means that according to the Parker decision
by the same court in 2000, the possession of marijuana law is dead once again." 

OCSARC reminds people that while they might still be arrested and prosecuted by
police and prosecutors who refuse to acknowledge the status of the law, they may
seek substantial financial compensation later. "This is a notice to police that
while they do have the power to arrest harmless marijuana smokers, they will be
doing so at their own peril. Cannabis consumers will not allow themselves to be
treated as second class citizens, and many will be armed with legal information
and representation in case the harassment continues," said Meehan. 

OCSARC (Ontario Consumers for Safe Access to Recreational Cannabis) is a
Toronto-based organization working to end prohibition and promote reasonable and
responsible regulation and quality assurance in the cannabis market.

Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Declan McCullagh]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:45:43PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> You need to read my long, long essay in "True Names," then. This is 
> more widely available than anything I would waste my time doing for 
> "Body Peircing" or "Skate," even if I wanted to.
> 
> As for writing for "Reason," they haven't asked, and their editorial 
> focus is increasingly statist. Cf. Cathy Young's quote at the bottom of 
> this post.

I disagree. I went to a Reason gathering in Washington last Thursday
and found the staffers there definitely not statist.

But they were Cato-type libertarians. This is not meant to be critical
of the Cato Institute. What I mean is that the folks at the Reason
event worked at Cato and other groups like IHS, CEI, AEI, and so on --
groups that have adopted a mode of advocacy that is more academic and
scholarly than activist.

Instead of saying:
Fuck big government.

They'll say:
As decades of scholarly work in the public choice arena has shown,
government entitlement programs at the federal level result in
continued inefficiencies and rent-seeking.

It's a matter of how you say it. I don't know if that crowd is as
interested in the edgy kind of state-wrecking disruptive technologies
(that will have a greater long-term impact).

-Declan

Re: Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[Declan McCullagh]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 04:27:38PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
> the business as old fart pinko activists of today.   And if the 
> same is true of the libertarian party, well it has been walking 
> dead for some considerable time, but its death does not reflect 
> the health of libertarianism. 

The latest issue of Liberty Magazine (which I have started reading 
again) has an excellent article by Bradford about the death of the
Libertarian Party. Uses the California election as a tool for analysis,
or dissection.

-Declan

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no more of these

Re: Type III Anonymous message

[Harmon Seaver]

   '92-'94 here: http://www.cybershamanix.com/punk.html

 with a link to the later stuff here: 

http://cypherpunks.venona.com/


On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 06:56:07PM -0800, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> > Does anyone have a reasonably complete cypherpunks archive available
> > for FTP?  Perhaps I could host them on my server and let Google index
> > them. That might be useful.
> 
> There are only two live ones. Someone knows more ?
> 
> The second one is FTP-able:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cypherpunks-lne-archive/
> 
> http://lists.lab.net/archive/cypherpunks-exploder/
> 
> 
> 
> =
> end
> (of original message)
> 
> Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
> 
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Re: Type III Anonymous message

[Morlock Elloi]

> Does anyone have a reasonably complete cypherpunks archive available
> for FTP?  Perhaps I could host them on my server and let Google index
> them. That might be useful.

There are only two live ones. Someone knows more ?

The second one is FTP-able:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cypherpunks-lne-archive/

http://lists.lab.net/archive/cypherpunks-exploder/



=
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:

__
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/

don't be late! aeuaipei

[john]

Will meet tonight as we agreed, because on Wednesday I don't think I'll make it,

so don't be late. And yes, by the way here is the file you asked for.
It's all written there. See you.

aeuaipei


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approaching to hostility.  I took her aside while Jeanne was
playing in the garden.

"My good Victoire," I said, "while Madame de Courteheuse was
living, I considered it a duty to leave her granddaughter in
her keeping.  Besides, no one was better fitted to watch over
her education.  At present my duty is to watch over it myself.
I propose therefore to take Jeanne with me to Paris; and I hope
that you may be willing to accompany her, and remain in her
service." When she understood my intention, the old woman, in
whose hands I had noticed a faint trembling, became suddenly
very pale.  She fixed her firm, grey eyes upon me: "Monsieur
le Comte will not do that!"

"Pardon me, my good Victoire, that I shall do.  I appreciate
your good qualities of fidelity and devotion.  I shall be very
grateful if you will continue to take care of my daughter, as
you have done so excellently.  But for the rest, I intend to
be the only master in my own house, and the only master of my
child."  She laid a hand upon my arm: "I implore you, Monsieur,
don't do this!"  Her fixed look did not leave my face, and
seemed to be questioning me to the very bottom of my soul.
"I have never believed it," she murmured, "No!  I [237] never
could believe it.  But if you take the child away I shall."

"Believe what, wretched woman? believe what?"

Her voice sank lower still.  "Believe that you knew how her


This valuable message is made possible by your MoneyDaze Network membership.

Contact: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
P.O. Box 387 
Boston, Ma. 02215

Re: Got.net and its narcing out of its customers

[Michael Shields]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Searching GG on "don frederickson got tim" is maybe more reliable than
>> pasting this URL.
>
> For long urls, compress with tinuyurl.com
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yc3s

If you do that, you have to rely on both the Google URL not changing
and on tinyurl not going away.
-- 
Shields.

Re: Marijuana once again legal in Ontario, Canada

[Pete Capelli]

Yeah - might want to hold off on that for now ...

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1070925607028&call_pageid=968332188492

-p

- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Meehan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:54 PM
Subject: Marijuana once again legal in Ontario, Canada


> An unforeseen consequence of government incompetence.
>
> http://ontario.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=25324
>
> TORONTO - Ontario Consumers for Safe Access to Recreational Cannabis is
happy to
> inform consumers that, because of Health Canada's failure to implement
> constitutional Medical Marijuana Access Regulations, wide-open marijuana
> legalization is back in Ontario!
>
> "The police will likely still have their 'business as usual' public
relations
> line, but since Health Canada has defied the order of the Ontario Court of
> Appeal by not allowing a grower to supply multiple patients, as ordered,
the
> MMAR is unconstitutional," said Tim Meehan, communications director of
OCSARC.
>
> "Because it's unconstitutional, that means that according to the Parker
decision
> by the same court in 2000, the possession of marijuana law is dead once
again."
>
> OCSARC reminds people that while they might still be arrested and
prosecuted by
> police and prosecutors who refuse to acknowledge the status of the law,
they may
> seek substantial financial compensation later. "This is a notice to police
that
> while they do have the power to arrest harmless marijuana smokers, they
will be
> doing so at their own peril. Cannabis consumers will not allow themselves
to be
> treated as second class citizens, and many will be armed with legal
information
> and representation in case the harassment continues," said Meehan.
>
> OCSARC (Ontario Consumers for Safe Access to Recreational Cannabis) is a
> Toronto-based organization working to end prohibition and promote reasonab
le and
> responsible regulation and quality assurance in the cannabis market.