Finding collision resistant hash functions
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Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
Major Variola (ret.) wrote: > Slashdot pointed to this story of a man indicted via > his *relative's* DNA sample: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3044282.stm > > But an interesting, unmentioned issue is this: in population > DNA surveys you find that a lot of purported fathers *aren't*. > So the possibility of indicting a cuckolded man on the basis > of nominal (only) relatives is quite real. Only he was convicted because he confessed. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
At 02:33 AM 7/7/03 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote: >On 2003-07-06, Major Variola (ret) uttered to [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > >>There's a good reason why, viz: it would cost the drive developer to >>allow or export this flexibility. > >I'd guess either because of a) terminal stupidity or b) benefits to scale >in making it sure people go with compatibility. As there probably have to >be some limits to how stupid engineers capable of making things like >writable CD's can be, I'd have to go with the second alternative. Frankly its obvious you haven't worked (or thought about the constraints) on a commercial product with a deadline / resource constraints or worked on something extremely cost sensitive like commodity drives/chipsets. Here, ponder this: why are there no oxygen sensor or manifold temperature or ignition-phase (etc) displays in ordinary cars? (Although there probably are in custom race cars) You know (much like the analog CD signal) they're being measured and used by the ECU. So, why not? Chew on that one for a while, grasshopper. Economics is applied physics.
Re: Finding collision resistant hash functions
At 02:19 AM 7/7/03 -0700, Sarad AV wrote: or how are we supposed to >find collision free hash functions?What exactly is the >difficulty in finding collision free hash functions? Because there are no collision *free* hash functions, there will always be several domain elements that map to the same range element. Assuming more domain elements than range elements, which is generally what people mean by hashing. You're not asking the right question, you need more constraints on the type of hash functions and their resistance to collisions. You're probably looking for functions that make it hard to intentionally find arguments that produce hashes identical to a given one. There's an incredibly dry taxonomically-inclined downloadable text on this somewhere but the margin of my screen is too small to contain the url. You'll first have to use language more precisely to get any use out of it.
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
At 11:58 AM 7/7/03 +0100, Ben Laurie wrote: >Major Variola (ret.) wrote: >> So the possibility of indicting a cuckolded man on the basis >> of nominal (only) relatives is quite real. > >Only he was convicted because he confessed. Yes, of course, in this *particular* case. Which is irrelevent. The point is that there are undiscussed evidentiary problems using relatives' DNA, hinging on the assumption that "blood relatives actually share blood", in layspeak.
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Title: Untitled Document 尊敬的女士/先生您好：请原谅我们用此方式给您带来实惠： IP长途电话卡、上网卡、邮票特价优惠：http://www.weininfuwu.com Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] IP长途电话卡： 名称 适合地区 面值（元） 批发价（元） 联通17911充值卡 北京 100 49 联通17910 北京 100 52 联通17910 全国 100 55 联通193 全国 100 55 移动17951充值卡 全国 100 62 移动17950 全国 100 50 网通17908 北京 100 65 网通17930 北京 100 52 吉通17920 北京 100 49 吉通17920 全国 100 51 京城友谊充值卡 北京 100 52 铁通068300 全国 100 45 铁通17990 全国 100 42 铁通17990充值卡 北京 100 48 铁通17991充值卡 北京 100 49 卫通17970充值卡 北京 100 50 IC电话卡 北京 50 35 邮票价格表： 原价（元） 1000枚以上（元） 500枚以上（元） 100枚以上（元） 2.90 1.90 2.00 2.10 2.80 1.80 1.90 2.00 2.60 1.70 1.80 1.90 2.30 1.60 1.70 1.80 2.00 1.50 1.60 1.70 1.60 1.20 1.30 1.40 1.50 1.10 1.20 1.30 1.00 0.85 0.90 0.95 5.40 3.50 3.70 3.90 5.00 3.50 3.70 3.80 10.00 7.00 7.40 7.60 0.80 0.75 0.60 0.55 0.50 0.45 0.30 0.30 0.20 0.20 上网卡价格表： 名称 面值（元） 优惠价（元） 联通165全国漫游卡 100 50 联通165全国漫游卡 50 27 北京联通165包双月上网卡 98 46 北京联通165包月上网卡 68 32 赛尔包双月上网卡 70 263龙凤卡（计时上网卡） 100 55 263龙凤卡（计时上网卡） 50 27 北京263纵横上网卡 100 50 96688世纪互联包半年上网卡 200 163包月上网卡 45 163计时上网卡 100 39 95777包月上网卡 50 2932包月上网卡 40 2932计时上网卡 100 40 IP长途电话卡、上网卡、10张（特价邮票100枚）以上，北京五环以内免费送货，货到付款。 外地客户款到付货或自提（价格以电话确认为准）。 如果要货少，可先汇款，我公司用传真、电话和电子邮件将卡号和密码通知您。 联系电话：010-65675942 联系人：夏女士 罗小姐 北京汇满科技发展有限公司 北京邮卡币集团总代理
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Hi, We have purchased a lead list purporting to be a list of people interested in increasing their odds of winning the official UK lottery and we would like to ask your permission first before sending any further information. This is the most exciting development project in the history of playing the lottery game. If you play the official UK Lotto then do what everyone else is doing now in the UK and around the Globe. Join the e-lottery syndicate and increase your odds to 1 in 13. Refer friends and family and earn up to £97,000 per month (cc.$150,000 USD) in referral fees alone. Results by email, free service to all! Worldwide Applications Welcome! To receive further information, please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] And in the subject line type SEND ME MORE INFO... Oh and don't forget your first and last names. Those who do not respond, will not be contacted again and will be removed from the lead list. Thanks Gary P.S. For those wishing to become more active with referral networking and run a home based business, this might be just the thing you are looking for. I personally have not seen or been involved in anything so explosive!!. p.p.s. The latest promotion development: The UK Lotto game uses 6/49 system. With our syndicate, you can enter for FREE to match 5 numbers only and win cc.$1600 USD. Furthermore, if you introduce friends & family and they win $1600, you win the same amount as their referrer. What's the catch? There is no catch! This is a new promotion! Use it while it lasts!
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Re: Denver Post article on mattd/proffr/AP/Jim Bell/cypherpunks
"The posts made by Professor Rat fall under a relatively new category of crime known >as "cyberstalking," >said Jim Doyle, a retired New York City police sergeant who now works as a >cybercrimes consultant for a >Connecticut company called Internet Crimes. The statements made by Professor Rat constitute prosecutable offenses, he said. "The bottom line is what the victim feels," he said. "Is the victim threatened? Is the victim alarmed? >Hey, that's a crime." Interesting logic here. Someone writes something not-so-nice about somebody on a list and now that person is being "cyberstalked" even though they're not a subscriber. And now, the stalk-ee is a victim of a crime. And now the person who said something "not-so-nice" has committed a crime. And this guy's a consultant? To whom, I wonder... Funny enough, I don't rmember seeing any of Prof Rat's posts, and I've never even killfiled him. -TD From: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Denver Post article on mattd/proffr/AP/Jim Bell/cypherpunks Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:03:54 -0400 http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~1497971,00.html ... The development of digital money, and encryption software restricting government's ability to monitor Internet activity, are common goals among the online anarchists and libertarians known as "cypherpunks." The ultimate purpose of Assassination Politics is to deter people from working for government agencies, corporate media outlets or institutions "beholden to the violence of the state," Taylor said. Professor Rat also has threatened a University of Ottawa law professor, a columnist for The Boston Globe and a Cincinnati police officer. ... The Post is withholding the names of the subjects of posts by Professor Rat to avoid promoting any specific threats. ... Eugene Volokh, a law professor at the University of California-Los Angeles and a First Amendment specialist, said the threats were probably criminal, given Taylor's description of the purpose of Assassination Politics. ... _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
At 07:30 2003-07-07 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: This is only for the minimal forms of "protection" which are designed to work with existing CD/DVD players. If you look at the new audio formats like SACD, they use encrypted data. All your lasers won't do you any good unless you can pry a key (and the algorithm!) out of a consumer player, which won't be easy assuming it is in a tamper-resistant unit. If you believe the article "Myths and Misconceptions about Hardware Hacking," http://www.cptwg.org/Assets/Presentations/ARDG/ARDGHardware_hack05-28-03.pdf , recently posted to the Content Protection Technical Working Group, access to affordable commercial technology for reverse engineering has given hardware hackers the upper hand. steve "There is no protection or safety in anticipatory servility." Craig Spencer
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > At 01:15 PM 7/7/03 -0400, Stormwalker wrote: > >On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> Interesting, thanks. Even a brother's daughter could be refused. > > > > The BRCA genes are only transmitted through the mother, but > > there are many others that go through both lines. > > Could you explain how this could be? My apologies. This is a not what I meant to say. The brca genes can be passed through both paternal and maternal lines. > What's wrong with voluntary eugenics? The invention of agriculture > started a policy of negative eugenics that culminates with the > industrial welfare state paying stupids to breed, while others chose > birth control. And banning somatic or germ line fixes to diseases, if > you can do them, is as compassionate as banning insulin. Which isn't > even a fix, just a workaround. I was thinking of eugenics where something was forced upon others, which I do not think is desirable. The invention of agriculture has not yet culminated. It gave/gives people time to do other things. Good luck banning germ lines :) > If a germ line fix has an unintended side effect, you either undo it > (revert back to being inclined towards diabetes, if this is preferable > to the side effect, say) or you debug or patch it. Current & historical > medicine is filled with such things for mere *temporary* meds that > don't cure anything. Reverting may or not be possible. The products of some germ line may like what they are and wil lnot revert, no matter what other folks think. cheers, bob
Re: Genetic engineering [was: RE: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckol ding ignored]
At 03:59 PM 7/7/03 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: >There are some things where nearly everyone will agree >a genetic fix is desirable - for example, suceptibility to >heart disease, cancer, dental caries, and myopia. Other >'vanity' fixes seem pretty harmless - being tall, busty, >or having a well-stuffed package. > >Its when we get to 'fixes' to behaviour and personality >that things start to get very hairy. Although your examples are important, anyone who has or has known someone with depression, schizophrenia, or ADD [1] will argue that *subjectively unpleasant* mental ills are as worth fixing as bad teeth. If not more so. I fear that those in >power will use genetic engineering as they have used >every other tool at their disposal - weapons, states, >laws, and governments - to maintain their position at >the expense of the overall welfare of the species, by >allowing improvements only to their own descendents, >while requiring changes to those out of power which >make it harder for them to change their status. Agreed, as with the rest of your post. There are real horrorshow future possibilities. One more point. What is "adaptive" depends on your environment. As I try to explain to my more pigmented wife (it comes up because my 3.8 year old is in the "why" phase) while I'd get skin cancer in tropical zones, she'd get rickets in more northerly areas. Extrapolate to personality properties like "inhibition" (recently shown to be persistant from 2 to 20 year olds ie genetic) "aggression", etc. [1] Please don't lets start the flame about chemical coercion in mandatory youth education camps. Real ADD fucks people up. Which is not to say that M.Y.E.C. are well designed nor that ADD treatments are abused.
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Tim May wrote: > > I have to disagree here. Medical insurance is not the same as life > > or car insurance. It was all supposed to be a big pool that we would > > draw on when needed. By skimmimng the cream, infant mortality rates > > rise, along with a host of other problems. > No, it was NOT "all supposed to be a big pool that we would draw on > when needed." You seem to be confusing medical insurance with > nationalized social medicine. No, I am not confusing medical insurance with socialized medicine or anything else. I mentioned life insurance on purpose. That is a bet on when I will die, they bet later, I bet earlier. Money can be made - although never by me unless I cheat. Medical insurance is about maintenence of our lives. You do not need to participate, but I'll bet if you get hurt, you'll head to the nearest emergency room. The pool I speak of is simply that I may need the services now and you may need some later. We all have shared types of services and very specific service. I will most likely never need medical services for AIDS, but I have used them for broken bones. I will never need them for gyno or for giving birth services, but I may need them for prostrate problems. We all use them when we are born. > Do I really need to explain this concept here, to subscribers here? Well, you probably don't need to explain the problems of socialized medicine, but I would like to hear about how you will do your own X-Rays or chemotherapy. > Medical insurance is a risk arbitrage betting scheme just like all > other insurance: the actor selling a policy (a contract) is making the > bet that he will make more money than he pays out. If he finds out > something that alters the expectation of some illness or disease or > hazardous activity, then he adjusts the policy premiums accordingly (or > even refuses to sell a policy at any price, for understandable reasons). Not any more. See life insurance. Also, please keep in mind that insurance compnaies do not make their money from premiums, but from investments of all the premiums they collect and hold. Your model is not correct. > By the way, any scheme to force everyone into the same insurance pool > for the same premiums is profoundly antiliberty and is unconstitutional > (violates all sorts of rights). "Opting out" of coverage is always > fair. If I know I am not a rock climber, why would I pay for coverage > for rock climbing falls? And if I know I am not engaging in queer sex > or IV drug use, why would I pay for AIDS coverage/ This is a detour from my original proposition, but in answer to your question, you do not pay for rock climbing injuries. You pay for what you need and the rock climber pays for rock climbing risks. You may do something else risky or eat too many french fries that will cause a heart attack later. The rock climber will probably not have that heart attack. Opt out if you wish. I have opted out for a number of years by choice myself and have opted in as well. > (There are interesting scenarios for private testing for various genes > or proclivities, followed by opting-out for the diseases one is highly > unlikely to contract. This kind of "not paying for what you don't use" > is a form of cherry-picking which only a total state could outlaw. > Think about it.) This scenario of testing for specific genes is already underway. Stay tuned. cheers, bob
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Denver Post article on mattd/proffr/AP/Jim Bell/cypherpunks
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~1497971,00.html ... The development of digital money, and encryption software restricting government's ability to monitor Internet activity, are common goals among the online anarchists and libertarians known as "cypherpunks." The ultimate purpose of Assassination Politics is to deter people from working for government agencies, corporate media outlets or institutions "beholden to the violence of the state," Taylor said. Professor Rat also has threatened a University of Ottawa law professor, a columnist for The Boston Globe and a Cincinnati police officer. ... The Post is withholding the names of the subjects of posts by Professor Rat to avoid promoting any specific threats. ... Eugene Volokh, a law professor at the University of California-Los Angeles and a First Amendment specialist, said the threats were probably criminal, given Taylor's description of the purpose of Assassination Politics. ...
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 11:51:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > And if I know I am not engaging in queer sex > or IV drug use, why would I pay for AIDS coverage/ You've got to be kidding...
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
On Monday 07 July 2003 07:53 pm, Stormwalker wrote: > >Medical insurance is about maintenence of our lives. You do not >need to participate, but I'll bet if you get hurt, you'll head >to the nearest emergency room. The pool I speak of is simply that >I may need the services now and you may need some later. We all have >shared types of services and very specific service. I will most likely >never need medical services for AIDS, but I have used them for broken >bones. I will never need them for gyno or for giving birth services, >but I may need them for prostrate problems. We all use them when we are >born. > Bt. Tim is correct. Companies that provide medical insurance are betting that you will require $X dollars of medical treatment and then charge you $Y dollars hoping that $Y > $X (including the interest earned by investing $Y). The problem is that as you get older, the probability of you needing $$$ of medical treatment goes up and even higher if you engage in unhealthy practices (smoking, overeating, etc.). The gubmint's solution to this is what you are talking about... "Medicare". The fundamental assumption is that their are more healthy people than sick ones so that the premiums payed by the healthy people can be used to pay for medical care for the sick. Unfortunately, there are two things wrong with this assumption. 1) Amazing advances in medical technology that allow people who are sick to live longer, but are very expensive, which leads to 2) more older (and less healthy) people than young (and more healthy) people. If we are going to continue with the idea of Medicare then society has a whole must begin to make tough decisions on how to ration healthcare (ever heard of triage ?). Which makes more sense: Spend $X dollars on some 80 year old's heart/lung transplant so he can live another 10 years, or spend that money on make sure an unwed mother's baby is born healthy? (Note: either choice has it's own sets of costs and rewards). -- Neil Johnson http://www.njohnsn.com PGP key available on request.
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
On Monday 07 July 2003 22:03, Neil Johnson wrote: > ... Which makes more sense: Spend > $X dollars on some 80 year old's heart/lung transplant so he can live > another 10 years, or spend that money on make sure an unwed mother's > baby is born healthy? That's easy: spend it on the 80-year-old. He's more likely to vote than the unwed, and likely underage, mother. -- Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel "If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all!" -- Rep. Henry Waxman
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
At 08:36 PM 7/7/03 -0400, Stormwalker wrote: > >> What's wrong with voluntary eugenics? The invention of agriculture >> started a policy of negative eugenics that culminates with the >> industrial welfare state paying stupids to breed, while others chose >> birth control. And banning somatic or germ line fixes to diseases, if >> you can do them, is as compassionate as banning insulin. Which isn't >> even a fix, just a workaround. > > I was thinking of eugenics where something was forced upon others, > which I do not think is desirable. Hey, I oppose *anything* which is forced upon others, even if *I* deem it as "good". > The invention of agriculture has not yet culminated. It gave/gives > people time to do other things. Yeah, like raise armies, feed bureaucraps, etc. Still, I don't hold it against the farmers. Besides, the dominant cultures are descendants of farmers. See the writings of Jared Diamond. > Good luck banning germ lines :) > >> If a germ line fix has an unintended side effect, you either undo it >> (revert back to being inclined towards diabetes, if this is preferable >> to the side effect, say) or you debug or patch it. Current & historical >> medicine is filled with such things for mere *temporary* meds that >> don't cure anything. > > Reverting may or not be possible. The products of some germ line > may like what they are and wil lnot revert, no matter what other > folks think. Well, if they *like* it, only violent coercion would cause reversion. I was thinking something like, the diabetes-fix package causes premature death or something bothersome like that. Obviously the "service pack 6 nasal spray" needs to refuse to install on folks without the proper prior install. Also it needs to avoid spurious installation on folks who don't want it ---maybe you have to take a snort of some antibiotic combo at the same time to activate it, which is a current technique used for turning on inserted genes. Later
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
At 08:53 PM 7/7/03 -0400, Stormwalker wrote: >On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Tim May wrote: >> No, it was NOT "all supposed to be a big pool that we would draw on >> when needed." You seem to be confusing medical insurance with >> nationalized social medicine. > > No, I am not confusing medical insurance with socialized medicine > or anything else. I mentioned life insurance on purpose. That is a > bet on when I will die, they bet later, I bet earlier. Money can > be made - although never by me unless I cheat. Not at all. Much like gambling, sometimes you win "randomly" if you stop playing after that. "Random" is a word that means "ignorance" and both you and the insurer are ignorant about your true lifespan. You only play the life-insurance game once :-) > Medical insurance is about maintenence of our lives. You do not > need to participate, but I'll bet if you get hurt, you'll head > to the nearest emergency room. One person's need does not make another a slave. BTW One could argue that driver's insurance is *more* necessary than medical insurance, because to exist daily you need to drive. But again, need and slaves. > Well, you probably don't need to explain the problems of socialized > medicine, but I would like to hear about how you will do your own > X-Rays or chemotherapy. Some pay cash. You can do without car insurance if you post a bond. Others depend on *voluntary* charity --though nowadays this competes with compulsory (taxed) welfare. > Not any more. See life insurance. Also, please keep in mind that > insurance compnaies do not make their money from premiums, but > from investments of all the premiums they collect and hold. Your model > is not correct. You forget that if the insurer bets wrong, they have to pay up and cash in their investments. For certain investments, premature withdrawl costs more than sitting on the cash. Otherwise, like banks, or landlords with deposits, or other putatively free agents, insurers are free to do with their funds as they please. So long as they hold up their end of the contracts they've entered. >The rock climber will probably not have that > heart attack. FWIW, the rock climber's choice of ancestors (!) has more to do with their heart attack (etc) risk than their choice of avocation. >> (There are interesting scenarios for private testing for various genes >> or proclivities, followed by opting-out for the diseases one is highly >> unlikely to contract. This kind of "not paying for what you don't use" >> is a form of cherry-picking which only a total state could outlaw. >> Think about it.) > > This scenario of testing for specific genes is already underway. Stay > tuned. The flip side of Tim's comment is that you can pay extra for things you are at risk for. In a truly free market, insurers would offer packages customized to your risk. Genomic tendancy towards X? Pay more, get more ---including max payout. Little tendancy towards Y? Pay less. Rational people follow Pascal --you include probability in your reasoning about costs. Of course, in a free society, you are free to be irrational, too. (And consume whatever, and enjoy masochism, etc.) [oblig] Those who would constrain those freedoms have earned killing.
Re: Denver Post article on mattd/proffr/AP/Jim Bell/cypherpunks
On Monday 07 July 2003 19:58, Tyler Durden wrote:
> >"The bottom line is what the victim feels," he said. "Is the victim
> >threatened? Is the victim alarmed? >Hey, that's a crime."
>
> Interesting logic here. Someone writes something not-so-nice about
> somebody on a list and now that person is being "cyberstalked" even
> though they're not a subscriber. And now, the stalk-ee is a victim of
> a crime. And now the person who said something "not-so-nice" has
> committed a crime.
That standard is used increasingly often. I've had it used against me,
more than a decade ago. Just fit this in with "conspiracy" and
"attempt" and other fuzzy crimes; they're good for prosecutors because
they don't demand hard evidence and juries in practice tend to side
with the prosecution. ("If he didn't commit the crime, they wouldn't
have arrested him.")
Welcome to the new thought crime, where you don't even have to have
thought the forbidden, thought; it's enough that someone thinks you
thought it.
> Funny enough, I don't rmember seeing any of Prof Rat's posts, and
> I've never even killfiled him.
Many of the nodes filter out mattd/proffr's posts. I think Jim Choate's
node (see http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr) delivers his posts, along with
viagra ads and other garbage.
--
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel
"If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using
their weapons to protect their rights, makes me very nervous that
these people have these weapons at all!" -- Rep. Henry Waxman
Re: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 05:53 PM, Stormwalker wrote: On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Tim May wrote: I have to disagree here. Medical insurance is not the same as life or car insurance. It was all supposed to be a big pool that we would draw on when needed. By skimmimng the cream, infant mortality rates rise, along with a host of other problems. No, it was NOT "all supposed to be a big pool that we would draw on when needed." You seem to be confusing medical insurance with nationalized social medicine. No, I am not confusing medical insurance with socialized medicine or anything else. I mentioned life insurance on purpose. That is a bet on when I will die, they bet later, I bet earlier. Money can be made - although never by me unless I cheat. Medical insurance is about maintenence of our lives. You do not need to participate, but I'll bet if you get hurt, you'll head to the nearest emergency room. The pool I speak of is simply that I may need the services now and you may need some later. We all have shared types of services and very specific service. I will most likely never need medical services for AIDS, but I have used them for broken bones. I will never need them for gyno or for giving birth services, but I may need them for prostrate problems. We all use them when we are born. Medical insurance, car insurance, life insurance, home insurance, boat insurance, etc., are all just variations on a theme. When AAA Insurance meets with Joe Sixpack to discuss his health or life or earthquake insurance, they seek to collect enough information to have a reasonable chance of turning a profit on the deal. Else why would they exist as a business? They likely never have complete information, about fault lines, or fire hazards, or unhealthy behavior, but they can manage their risks reasonably well by standard statistical sampling and actuarial data methods. I won't waste my time further arguing your "medial insurance is different" point until you show you have some basic grounding in how the real economy works and can explain why you think medical insurance is somehow exempt from the normal profit/loss considerations. Saying that health care is important is not enough. It's just another purchased service, after all. Do I really need to explain this concept here, to subscribers here? Well, you probably don't need to explain the problems of socialized medicine, but I would like to hear about how you will do your own X-Rays or chemotherapy. First, I pay for my own such needs out of my own pocket. Many firms and well-off individuals are "self-insured." Insurance is not something magical, it's just a set of tradeoffs of risk and ability to pay. For those who cannot possibly raise the $100K for a seldom-needed operation, paying $5000 a year in premiums _may_ make sense. Because they perceive the consequences of not having the money to buy the operation, despite its unlikelihood, to be worth the payment each year. And so on, for a range of scenarios. Second, if I wished to have insurance I would buy it. That's how I would get x-rays or chemotherapy. Saying that because I do not share your views about socialized insurance I must plan on making my own x-ray machine or brewing my own cancer chemicals is not only silly, it is disingenuous. Medical insurance is a risk arbitrage betting scheme just like all other insurance: the actor selling a policy (a contract) is making the bet that he will make more money than he pays out. If he finds out something that alters the expectation of some illness or disease or hazardous activity, then he adjusts the policy premiums accordingly (or even refuses to sell a policy at any price, for understandable reasons). Not any more. See life insurance. Also, please keep in mind that insurance compnaies do not make their money from premiums, but from investments of all the premiums they collect and hold. Your model is not correct. You're further gone than I thought. --Tim May "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat
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