ADV-get ya gamble on!

[Rocco]

IT'S NOT TOO 
LATE. DON'T MISS OUT ON MARCH MADNESS!!!
10% SIGN UP BONUS!!! 
ENJOY TRADITIONAL  CASINO GAMES AS WELL AS THE
FEATURED SPORTSBOOK
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Re: 1024-bit RSA keys in danger of compromise

[Bill Stewart]

At 05:38 PM 03/23/2002 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>While the latter doesn't warrant comment, one question to ask
>spokespersons pitching the former is "what key size is the majority of
>your customers using with your security product"? Having worked in this
>industry for over a decade, I can state without qualification that
>anybody other than perhaps some of the HSM vendors would be misinformed
>if they claimed that the majority - or even a sizable minority - of
>their customers have deployed key sizes larger than 1024-bits through
>their organization. Which is not surprising, since many vendor offerings
>fail to support larger keys.

While SSL implementations are mostly 1024 bits these days,
aren't PGP Diffie-Hellman keys usually 1536 bits?

Very Best Market Returns .

[Nancy_Marketwatcher09]

SPECIAL SITUATION ALERTS NEWSLETTER
HOT PICK OF THE YEAR

Environmental Remediation Holding Corp. (OTCBB: ERHC)

SYMBOL: ERHC
RECENT PRICE: $ .17

SELL TARGET: $ 1.25

INVESTOR ALERT: ERHC enters into joint-venture license agreement
with SCHLUMBERGER LTD (NYSE: SLB, $60) and BAKER HUGHES, INC.
(NYSE: BHI, $40) for seismic data on some of the richest offshore
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INVESTORS - WE HAVE FOUND THE HIDDEN GEM: (OTCBB: ERHC)

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$MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR VALUE that has been placed in this offshore
drilling haven.  ERHC's goal is to maximize shareholder value from
existing contractual rights, making them a significant player in
this region.

THE BIG MONEY ROLLS IN:

The seismic data from this joint-venture is being made available for
further involvement by the LARGEST OIL COMPANIES IN THE WORLD over
the next 2 weeks!
Bidding wars have already developed between major oil companies such as:
SHELL, CHEVRON/TEXACO, CONOCO, EXXON/MOBIL, PHILIPS, and MARATHON who
are willing to pay $Hundreds of Millions to drill in the oil blocks that
border on ERHC's offshore zones.

STOCK SET TO EXPLODE ON EARNINGS BOOM:

"UPSTREAM", the International Oil and Gas Newspaper considered to be the
equivalent of the "Wall Street Journal" for the Oil Industry, has stated
in a number of articles that EXXON/MOBIL believes that the oil blocks
"housing ERHC's working interest" contain over 8 BILLION BARRELS OF 
RECOVERABLE OIL

TAKEOVERS RUNNING RAMPANT . . .

Oil Companies of all sizes have been the target of significant mergers
and takeovers during the past year.  Many of these takeovers or buyouts
have occurred due to the value of the acquired Company's offshore oil
holdings in West Africa.  One such example is Marathon Oil (NYSE: MRO, $28)
paying $900 MILLION for the West African holdings of CMS Energy
(NYSE: CMS, $23).  We believe that ERHC and/or the Company's offshore oil
interests could be the next target of a takeover.  This is largely
because of their exclusive right to participate in exploration and production
along with OIL INDUSTRY GIANTS, as these oil blocks are adjacent to Billion
Barrel producing regions!

SPECIAL SITUATION ALERTS'
Newsletters offer valuable research for investors.


DISCLAIMER: Certain statements contained in this newsletter may be 
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Re: 1024-bit RSA keys in danger of compromise

[Meyer Wolfsheim]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Bill Stewart wrote:

> While SSL implementations are mostly 1024 bits these days,
> aren't PGP Diffie-Hellman keys usually 1536 bits?

The ElGamal encryption keys (Diffie-Hellman is a misnomer in PGP's case)
are usually 2048 bits, though the DSA signing keys are almost always 1024
bits.


-MW-

Key 1581PYfk1-298Fokc99l18

[lisa1767068k62]

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Re: signal to noise proposal

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Faustine wrote:

> Bah. I say it depends entirely on what the lie is, who's being lied to, and 
> how confident and artistic the confidence artists are.

> If they were good enough (and their targets comfortable enough), all three
> could be lying their asses off about anything and nobody would ever be the
> wiser. Likewise, with three or more targets playing it the other direction.

There is a time factor involved. Inconsistencies must accumulate. And I'm
not sure the problem applies to somebody who WANTS to be lied to as you
posit by implication with your extension. There is an implicit 'critical'
factor in the original problem as posed, we assume no cooperation between 
-all- the players, there is at least one 'honest' one.

The game where there is one honest player is -not- the same game as no
honest players.

Changing the rules in the middle of the game will -almost always- allow
one to manipulate the discussion to a desired goal. But then again there
goes that -critical- factor in such a co-operative environment. Thank
goodness this isn't one of those ;)


 --


 There is less in this than meets the eye.

 Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

CanSecWest/core02 reminder

[Dragos Ruiu]

Hello to those of you I haven't talked in a while, and last
two years conference attendees. (Sorry if you get two copies of
this, it means you've either got two ids in my addressbook or
my perl hash script-foo is not leet enough. :-)
 
This is a quick note to remind you that the deadline for reduced fares
for travel to Vancouver for  the CanSecWest/core02 conference in
Vancouver is coming up so if you haven't booked your ticket, or
taken advantage of the lower registration rates this month

Also agenda details and a schedule will be posted shortly at
http://www.cansecwest.com
 

cheers,
--dr

-- 
--drhttp://dragos.com/dr-dursec.asc
   CanSecWest/core02 - May 1-3 2002 - Vancouver B.C. - http://cansecwest.com

[dgc.chat] XML/X - part I

[R. A. Hettinga]

--- begin forwarded text


Status:  U
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:03:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Ian Grigg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [dgc.chat] XML/X - part I
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

It is with some satisfaction that we announce the first
public demonstration of a new project that we've been
working on for the last six months.

This demonstration is taking place at Java 1 this week,
by Erwin Van der Koogh, a programmer with Sun's XML group
in Dublin.  He's also a WebFunds programmer, having been
primarily responsible for the current generation.

You can check out a scratch home page for the project at:

   http://www.webfunds.org/guide/xml/

We were looking some time ago at the difficulty faced
by the various merchants in implementing access to the
current money providers.  As no merchant could really
predict where the good money was, so to speak, it was
pretty obvious that being able to implement a range of
gold-based units was much less risky.

But it was also rather impossible.  The transfer methods
for the systems ranged from pretending to be a browser,
to accessing partially complete protocols to .. nothing.
None of the systems in place seem to appeal as none of
them have actually been thought out from the point of
view of what we know about protocols and networks.

It behoved us to come up with our own spend system.  We
were in the throes of developing our own web-based system,
and we wanted that bit right.  After all, a lot of demand
comes from the support of the merchant class (a group we
christened as Matildas, but that's a story for another
day).

Others, such as Intertrader, were still smarting at the
cost of having developed access for different systems,
and not having been able to efficiently deploy it because
of the system bugs imposed on them.  And, yet others
simply didn't know where to start.

It all begged for a standard.  We sat down and drew one
up.  Now, because standards committees tend to be noisy,
rumbunctious, and ultimately unproductive, unless they
have a *very* solid mission to draw from, we decided not
to make this a publicity thing in the beginning.  That
is, we decided to write it first, then open it up.

All well and good, and of course, we chose to do our
transfer interface in XML.  We called it XML/X as a
quick code name for the project, being transactions in
XML.  The results will be open source, the documentation
will be readily available, and no fees will be levied on
joining or using.  Even though this project is about
money, it makes more monetary sense to impose no barriers
on its widespread adoption.

A quick example might clarify what all this hyperbole is
about.  Imagine you have some accounts at a standard DGC
such as e-gold, goldmoney, or one of those other systems
such as PayPal.  As a merchant, you want to initiate a
transaction from your automated web system to pay out a
customer.  Or vice versa.

So, you open up a connection to the money server and
send down a stream of commands to cause it to happen.
Here's how you would do it in today's XML/X:

 
   
  P9348235 
  E3491 
  34201-543 
  45.23 
  Platinum 
  Slicker than Slick 
   

   
  iang 
  Rock On 
   

 

(Take that as an alpha - it's still evolving and is
likely to change.)  Consider this one feature as an
example:  In our XML/X, you can do a one-shot transfer
and get a reliable result.  It's reliable because you
can resend it (see the ?), and get the same
result - one and only one transaction, as long as the
server saw the instruction and acted at least once.

That's pretty useful.  In fact, it's so useful it
is blessed with the otherwise indecipherable term of
_idempotency_ (which means, it happens zero times or
once, no matter how many times you send it).  There are
lots of other useful features, but they lack general
interest unless one has social disabilities and wears
a propellor.

How useful would all that be to a cambist?

Such near-latin would be even more useful if all systems
offered the same interface.  By designing in elements
of protocols, it makes sense to adopt this one rather
than roll your own.  As an aside, XML/X incorporates
elements from SOX, the most reliable protocol for money
I've ever seen, although I admit to being a tad biased.

But the best is yet to come...

TO BE CONTINUED...

Send email to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> with the word Help
in the body of the message for help with list subscription.

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA

The IBUC Symposium on Geodesic Capital
April 3-4, 2002, The Downtown Harvard Club, Boston
 for details...

"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not 

Re: 40 teraflops (fwd)

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 8:25 PM -0800 on 3/25/02, Bill Stewart wrote:


>excerpted

Rather well, I might add, :-), though I will note that I *didn't* send it
to cypherpunks, and didn't know about it getting there until now. Must have
been by someone in my killfile, I guess...

Cheers,
RAH


-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA

The IBUC Symposium on Geodesic Capital
April 3-4, 2002, The Downtown Harvard Club, Boston
 for details...

"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

ciphersaber-2 human memorable test vectors

[Adam Back]

A while ago I wrote some code to search for human readable test
vectors for Arnold Reinhold's ciphersaber-2
(http://ciphersaber.gurus.com).  

Ciphersaber-2 is designed to be simple enough to be implemented from
memory, to avoid the risk of being caught with crypto software on your
computer for use in regimes which have outlawed encryption.  But the
only available test vectors are a big string of hex digits which
probably the implementor will find difficult to remember, and it is
quite easy to make implementation mistakes implementing ciphers -- and
the risks of accidentally using a incorrectly implemented and weak
variant of ciphersaber-2 are significant.  It would be useful
therefore for the stated purpose of ciphersaber-2 to have human
readable and memorable test vectors.

The software for exploring for human readable test vector phrases and
information on using it is here:

http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/csvec/

I have not myself spent much time looking for satisfyingly witty,
topical and memorable phrases. I'll appoint Arnold as the judge and
let you the reader see what you can come up with using the
software. The winning test-vector phrases will go here. Perhaps Arnold
will make some honorary 2nd level Cipher Knighthood and certificate
for producing the coolest phrase which is also a ciphersaber-2 test
vector.

By way of example the following is a ciphertext plaintext pair:

% csvec -c2 db 3 4 3 5 3 spook.lines
selected 155 words of length [3-5]
k="AMME",iv="spy fraud ": bce DES

which is interpreted as:

ciphertext = "spy fraud DES"
plaintext = "bce"
key = "AMME"

(the iv is prepended to the ciphertext)

and can be checked as:

% echo -n "spy fraud DES" | cs2.pl -d -k="AMME"
bce

and so on.

Adam
--
http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/

Clement Duval sentenced this day.(the best of the Bleed)

[matthew X]

"Theft exists only through the exploitation of man by man...when Society
refuses you the right to exist, you must take it...the policeman arrested
me in the name of the Law, I struck him in the name of Liberty

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/sinners/DuvalClement.htm
1911 -- US: Triangle Shirt Waist Fire.
The Triangle Shirt Waist Company, occupying the top floors of
a 10-story building in New York, is consumed by fire. 147 people,
mostly women & young girls, age 13 to 23, working in sweatshop
conditions, lost their lives.
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/trianglefire/
1966 -- US: Demonstrations & Vietnam War protests today
through the 27th. 25,000 march down Fifth Ave, NYC. Others
occur in seven US cities & seven foreign cities.
"They too were storming heaven -- do
you think they fought in vain; that
because they lost a battle they would
never rise again; that the man with the
leaflets, the woman with a gun, did not
have a daughter, did not have a son?"
 Hugo Dewar

96 straight hours with the secret police.

[matthew X]

http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=23880&group=webcast

ASIO 'anti-terrorist' laws in the sausage casing stage.
"...Treason against fundamental human and civil rights should be punishable 
by instant death."I'd buy that for a dollar!"Long live the Internet, the 
greatest enabler of free speech in hirstory.
"Free thought, necessarily involving freedom of speech &
press, I may tersely define thus: no opinion a law --
no opinion a crime."
---Alexander Berkman "

distributed.net looking for a new ISP.

[Trei, Peter]

Distributed.net, which has won several of the RSA Secret Key
challenges, and is currently 73% of the way through the
RC5-64 contest, has lost it's ISP.

Peter Trei

>From their front page:

- start quote 
We need your help! 

URGENT: We have recently learned that our long-standing
arrangement with Texas.Net (formerly Insync) would end at
noon, Friday, March 22. Through an agreement with Insync, we
were hosted at no charge for many years. Though we have
tried to make other arrangements with them or to continue
our current service until we can make other arrangements, in
the end we had no choice but to move.

Several of the Austin cows made a road trip Friday morning
to retrieve our equipment from their colocation facility.

We have no reason to complain about Texas.Net or their
current decision. As a business, they chose to donate to us
for a long time, and have now decided that they must
stop. In dbaker's words in a letter to Texas.Net: "Our
experience with Insync has been excellent; I've never been
happier with an Internet provider. I've recommended them
(and indirectly, Texas.Net) to everyone and even this
[situation] won't change that."

Though United Devices has kindly offered to colocate our
primary servers for a short time at no expense, we find
ourselves in the market for a new ISP. If any of our
participants work for a major ISP in Texas (preferably
within a few hours of Austin, but we're not picky), and
would be willing to donate colocation space and
connectivity, we would eagerly like to speak with you. Our
typical bandwidth usage is 3Mb/s, and reliable uptime is of
course essential.

Please e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you think you may be
able to help us in this area.

- end quote -

Get ya gamble on!

[Rocco]

IT'S NOT TOO 
LATE. DON'T MISS OUT ON MARCH MADNESS!!!
10% SIGN UP BONUS!!! 
ENJOY TRADITIONAL  CASINO GAMES AS WELL AS THE
FEATURED SPORTSBOOK
CLICK
HERE TO JOIN!
 
 
 
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unsubscribe from this mailing list, click hereand type unsubscribe in the subject bar.  

Lie multicasting, politics

[Major Variola (ret)]

>> > To wit, no two people can safely tell the same lie to the same
person.

What do you think the politics game is about?

Lie multicasting.

Brands credentica (Re: [Tsg] Micropayments & VISA?)

[Nomen Nescio]

This is a response to Paul Holman's article on the 
DBS list.  Either RAH is intentionally not forwarding 
the message below or his address is undeliverable 
to a few remailers.  Not like RAH to not forward 
ecash related info.

Interesting for this audience anyway, and perhaps if 
RAH sees here he'll forward to dbs and dcsb.

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Brands credentica (Re: [Tsg] Micropayments & VISA?)

Your information is out of date: Brands is no longer at ZKS, last
month a new company was launched in which Brands is involved, see
www.credentica.com, the rights are not tangled up in any way (legal
separation, all rights cleared).

Paul Holman wrote:
> [...]  There are possible alternatives; Brands' patents, now tied up
> at ZKS, and other schemes which try to body swerve Chaum, but
> nothing comforting.

Get ya gamble on!

[Rocco]

IT'S NOT TOO 
LATE. DON'T MISS OUT ON MARCH MADNESS!!!
10% SIGN UP BONUS!!! 
ENJOY TRADITIONAL  CASINO GAMES AS WELL AS THE
FEATURED SPORTSBOOK
CLICK
HERE TO JOIN!
 
 
 
 To 
unsubscribe from this mailing list, click hereand type unsubscribe in the subject bar.  

Brands credentica (Re: [Tsg] Micropayments & VISA?)

[A. Melon]

[Sorry for duplicates if this comes out multiple 
times, suspect am experiencing unreliability.]

This is a response to Paul Holman's article on the 
DBS list.  Either RAH is intentionally not forwarding 
the message below or his address is undeliverable 
to a few remailers.  Not like RAH to not forward 
ecash related info.

Interesting for this audience anyway, and perhaps if 
RAH sees here he'll forward to dbs and dcsb.

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Brands credentica (Re: [Tsg] Micropayments & VISA?)

Your information is out of date: Brands is no longer at ZKS, last
month a new company was launched in which Brands is involved, see
www.credentica.com, the rights are not tangled up in any way (legal
separation, all rights cleared).

Paul Holman wrote:
> [...]  There are possible alternatives; Brands' patents, now tied up
> at ZKS, and other schemes which try to body swerve Chaum, but
> nothing comforting.

I have OCD and need help

[John P. Clarke]

I've read books, done therapy, and consulted with many for over 16 years without any 
substantial progress.  Among other problems, I need to deal with a mental compulsion 
to break apart words and phrases into symmetrical groups, the continual counting and 
sorting of everything I see, and the uncontrollable parade of ideas in my head 
competing for attention.  This interferes with concentration, impairs decision-making, 
and leads to frustration and depression.

I would welcome suggestions, possible solutions, reference materials, referrals, 
anything you might recommend.  Please email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thank you for your help.

Sincerely,

John P. Clarke

Why Hasn't It Ever Worked Before Today

[James Choate]

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once and retire!" 

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___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

Make your own pile

[James Choate]

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___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

Re: How not to defend yourself against hacking charges

[AARG! Anonymous]

Another happy customer of the Jim Bell Pro Bono
Self-Representation HappyFunPack(TM)?

Order now and get 6 foot of rope free! What you do
with it is of course your business...


-Original Message-



http://theregus.com/content/55/24357.html

Accused eBay hacker Jerome Heckenkamp is back behind
bars tonight, after his first solo court appearance
in front of his trial judge took an odd turn.

During what was to be a routine proceeding to set
future court dates, Heckenkamp challenged the
indictment against him on the grounds that it spells
his name, Jerome T. Heckenkamp, in all capital
letters, while he spells it with the first letter
capitalized, and subsequent letters in lower case.

Last week, Heckenkamp, 22, fired attorney Jennifer
Granick, and co-counsel Marjorie Allard, in order
to personally defend himself against two federal
grand jury indictments charging that he cracked
computers at eBay, Lycos, Exodus Communications,
and other companies in 1999. It was the second
time Heckenkamp fired his lawyers -- in January, he
had a federal magistrate appoint him as his own
counsel, only to change his mind the same day.

At Monday's appearance, Judge James Ware seemed
initially perplexed by Heckenkamp's challenge,
and spent some time explaining the nature of the
proceedings. Finally, he advised Heckenkamp to take
it up in front of a jury when he goes to trial.
"I cannot help but comment that you have substituted
out a capable attorney," the judge added.

Heckenkamp went on to demand that he be immediately
allowed to take the stand and testify, and was again
rebuffed by Ware, who noted that the appearance was
not a hearing or a trial.

The computer whiz then asked the court to identify
the plaintiff in the case. Ware explained that the
United States was the plaintiff, and was represented
by assistant U.S. attorney Ross Nadel. Heckenkamp
said he wanted to subpoena Nadel's "client" to appear
in court, and Ware asked him who, exactly, he wanted
to bring into the courtroom.

When Heckenkamp replied, "The United States of America,"
Ware ordered him taken into custody.

"The comments that you are making to the court lead
me to suspect that either you are playing games with
the court, or you're experiencing a serious lack of
judgment," said Ware. The judge added that he was no
longer satisfied that Heckenkamp would make his future
court appearances.

Heckenkamp had been free on $50,000 bail, and living
under electronic monitoring -- prohibited by court
order from using cell phones, the Internet, computers,
video games and fax machines.

Before two deputy U.S. marshals hauled Heckenkamp
away, he threatened legal action against the judge.
"I will hold you personally liable," he said. "I will
seek damages for every hour that I'm in custody."

In a telephone interview after the appearance,
Heckenkamp's father, Thomas Heckenkamp, said his
son is only trying to protect his rights. "They've
overstepped their bounds, and they're keeping him
from defending himself," he said.

Heckenkamp's next court appearance in San Jose is
scheduled for April 8th.
Trial in a related case in San Diego is set for
April 23rd.

Re: signal to noise proposal

[Faustine]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jim wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Faustine wrote:

> Bah. I say it depends entirely on what the lie is, who's being lied to, and
> how confident and artistic the confidence artists are.

> If they were good enough (and their targets comfortable enough), all three
> could be lying their asses off about anything and nobody would ever be the
> wiser. Likewise, with three or more targets playing it the other direction.

>>There is a time factor involved. Inconsistencies must accumulate.

Maybe, but whether they're picked up on is the only thing that counts. We see
what we want to see: if something moves the target from a state of unfocused
suspicion to a tightly focused suspicion, they're going to be seeing
inconsistencies and drawing inferences where there are none. Which is what
makes being hypervigilant so dangerously counterproductive: if you're all wound
up and madder than hell about the idea of being fed a line of disinformation,
all anyone who wants to damage you and your informant has to do is insinuate
you're being taken for a ride: you find the "proof" yourself and take it out
on the innocent person. Classic Iago. "Credo in un dio crudel che m'ha creato
simile a se." heh. (who says a Wagnerian can't like Verdi? Magificent aria.)


>And I'm not sure the problem applies to somebody who WANTS to be lied to as you
>posit by implication with your extension.

The most obvious example here is a little kid whose parents feed them a line of
crap about Santa Claus. The kid wants to believe, and I never heard of parents
who tipped them off by not getting their story straight! Even after they
realize they're seeing different-shaped Santa Clauses in the shopping malls etc,
they still manage to convince themselves it's real. Why? Beacuse their parents
told them so, they saw the NORAD BS on CNN, they like the presents, they take
comfort in the the idea of a benevolent father-figure sailing through the sky...

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake!

Though this looks like the perfect set-up for a frothing rant on the evils of
religion, the state, and how we delude ourselves in the name of security, I'll
pass and leave you to draw your own conclusions. ;)


> There is an implicit 'critical' factor in the original problem as posed, we
>assume no cooperation between-all- the players, there is at least one 'honest'
>one.

Honest? You mean someone acting in good faith without the expectation of being
conned? Think of other games where someone is acting in good faith WITH the
expectiation of being conned, or acting in BAD faith without the expectation of
being conned. Honest, bah. Right now I'm thinking of the second half
of that Iago aria. 

> The game where there is one honest player is -not- the same game as no
> honest players.

Who's the honest player in a game of Chicken?

  Cooperate   Not Cooperate 
Cooperate2,21,3 
Not Cooperate3,10,0 


Just a thought...

~Faustine.


***

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself.

- --Thomas Paine

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Homeland Deception (was RE: signal to noise proposal)

[Aimee Farr]

Faustine:

> Aimee wrote:
>
> > > To wit, no two people can safely tell the same lie to the same person.
>
> Bah. I say it depends entirely on what the lie is, who's being
> lied to, and how
> confident and artistic the confidence artists are.

You're probably right.

> Choate:
> > Actually they can, only one (or both, if we allow 3 or more agents, only
> > one is required to 'know' the lie) of the people must believe it is the
> > truth.
>
> If they were good enough (and their targets comfortable enough), all three
> could be lying their asses off about anything and nobody would ever be the
> wiser. Likewise, with three or more targets playing it the other
> direction.
>
>
> >Well, I doan' kno' nuttin' 'bout no agents. That fact has been
> established.
>
> Careful parsing is the spice of life... :P

So sayeth the academic-researcher-grad student pretext... :P

> >But, you know, after pondering on that a bit...What if "the lie" was
> >supposedly "really secret stuff?"
> >You know, "ME LUCKY CHARMS!"
> >I know the little boys and girls are after me lucky charms.
> >If "3 or more agents" happen to run in the door with me lucky charms,
>
> Sounds about right.

Yep, they would be lucky and charming.

> >that might smell really fishy to some people since leprechauns
> are hard to
> >catch.
>
> Somewhere over the rainbow.

> >Furthermore, if you ask them about these lucky charms in isolation, they
> >better know the lucky charms like the back of their hand, or further
> >investigation is likely to review not-so-lucky inconsistencies. The
> >"knowing" part can be rendered irrelevant by context, indeed it is
> >sometimes imperative that everybody KNOW so as to
> provide...uhm.secondary
> >alternative consistency.
>
> But what about when the unlucky charmers find they're actually the victims
> of a deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers
> kind of thing.

Recursive is just writing backwards.

> What shows that the snowers know they've slowly been snowed? Bet
> it keeps a lot
> of people awake at night, that one. Tricky, but fascinating. If
> anyone knows of
> any good links to counter-deception detection, drop me a line.
> Not sure how "on
> topic" it is, but something everyone here would do well to read
> about. Either
> that, or just default to not trusting anyone, ever. Works for me.

Empathy skills in personal matters.

On a grand scale:

1. counterdeception teams - multidisciplinary, "non-cultured," outsiders --
creatives, narratives, hoaxers, jokesters, emplotters, etc.
2. devil's advocacy in the event stream
3. competitive analysis
4. MUST HAVE: highest-level precision black channels -- requiring nothing
short of a resurrection. Close surveillance. Sneaky submarines are not good
enough.
5. Cultural change -- a bit of British eccentricity; decision-maker
sensitization
6. Monitoring of foreign open source media and organizational theme
variations (quantitative content and textual analysis; inferential scanning)
7. Monitoring of internal organizational dissenters, noncomformists and the
intuitives (instead of quashing them, solicit them)

Sounds down your alley of interests, interested in your thoughts.

Due to the changing nature of the world, the U.S. could easily find itself
hoodwinked, isolated, paralyzed and worse. It used to be "Uproar in the
East, strike in the West."

Today, it's "Fool the Sky." (transparent or false-flag cover plan)

Our goal-states, perceptions, decision-points, etc. are there for all to
see. Most deceptions play upon expectations. Our surveillance capabilities
and superior military seem to point to a BARBAROSSA scenario -- a grand
deception.

Concealed within our strength is our weakness.

> >And, "lucky charm lies" can take many forms, including physical,
> which might
> >be subject to verification, additional investigation and other
> stuff I don't
> >want to happen to me lucky charms, because I might want the
> enemy to believe
> >they are TRULY "lucky," "charmed," and "mine."
> >I'm sure "it depends," but perhaps that wisdom came from just such a
> >situation.
>
> Oh really? *blink blink* like what?

"The Allies are landing at Normandy!"

..."It's just a trick."

"What does German intelligence say?"

...Just what the British told them.

The comment was from a review of FORTITUDE (deception plan) by one of the
British designers.

We could learn a lot from them --- save hundreds of thousands of lives by
using these concepts defensively, domestically, and in new contexts. With
each day that passes, we loose more of the window, and waste our resources
on low-return countermeasures which do nothing but present 'barriers of
certainty' to our adversaries, albeit a thin veil of comfort to our
population. (I frequently point out that the Germans practically held hands
along railways, and we still blew them all to heck in WW II.)

In some places, we are taking actions that play into deception designs.
Maybe we should change that, along with a few "street signs." Our

Girls will be girls

[jill jill]

Is this girl code.
Aimee i'am looking for the sheep

e:

> Aimee wrote:
>
> > > To wit, no two people can safely tell the same
lie to the same person.
>
> Bah. I say it depends entirely on what the lie is,
who's being
> lied to, and how
> confident and artistic the confidence artists are.

You're probably right.

> Choate:
> > Actually they can, only one (or both, if we allow
3 or more agents, only
> > one is required to 'know' the lie) of the people
must believe it is the
> > truth.
>
> If they were good enough (and their targets
comfortable enough), all three
> could be lying their asses off about anything and
nobody would ever be the
> wiser. Likewise, with three or more targets playing
it the other
> direction.
>
>
> >Well, I doan' kno' nuttin' 'bout no agents. That
fact has been
> established.
>
> Careful parsing is the spice of life... :P

So sayeth the academic-researcher-grad student
pretext... :P

> >But, you know, after pondering on that a bit...What
if "the lie" was
> >supposedly "really secret stuff?"
> >You know, "ME LUCKY CHARMS!"
> >I know the little boys and girls are after me lucky
charms.
> >If "3 or more agents" happen to run in the door
with me lucky charms,
>
> Sounds about right.

Yep, they would be lucky and charming.

> >that might smell really fishy to some people since
leprechauns
> are hard to
> >catch.
>
> Somewhere over the rainbow.

> >Furthermore, if you ask them about these lucky
charms in isolation, they
> >better know the lucky charms like the back of their
hand, or further
> >investigation is likely to review not-so-lucky
inconsistencies. The
> >"knowing" part can be rendered irrelevant by
context, indeed it is
> >sometimes imperative that everybody KNOW so as to
> provide...uhm.secondary
> >alternative consistency.
>
> But what about when the unlucky charmers find
they're actually the victims
> of a
deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers
> kind of thing.

Recursive is just writing backwards.

> What shows that the snowers know they've slowly been
snowed? Bet
> it keeps a lot
> of people awake at night, that one. Tricky, but
fascinating. If
> anyone knows of
> any good links to counter-deception detection, drop
me a line.
> Not sure how "on
> topic" it is, but something everyone here would do
well to read
> about. Either
> that, or just default to not trusting anyone, ever.
Works for me.

Empathy skills in personal matters.

On a grand scale:

1. counterdeception teams - multidisciplinary,
"non-cultured," outsiders --
creatives, narratives, hoaxers, jokesters, emplotters,
etc.
2. devil's advocacy in the event stream
3. competitive analysis
4. MUST HAVE: highest-level precision black channels
-- requiring nothing
short of a resurrection. Close surveillance. Sneaky
submarines are not good
enough.
5. Cultural change -- a bit of British eccentricity;
decision-maker
sensitization
6. Monitoring of foreign open source media and
organizational theme
variations (quantitative content and textual analysis;
inferential scanning)
7. Monitoring of internal organizational dissenters,
noncomformists and the
intuitives (instead of quashing them, solicit them)

Sounds down your alley of interests, interested in
your thoughts.

Due to the changing nature of the world, the U.S.
could easily find itself
hoodwinked, isolated, paralyzed and worse. It used to
be "Uproar in the
East, strike in the West."

Today, it's "Fool the Sky." (transparent or false-flag
cover plan)

Our goal-states, perceptions, decision-points, etc.
are there for all to
see. Most deceptions play upon expectations. Our
surveillance capabilities
and superior military seem to point to a BARBAROSSA
scenario -- a grand
deception.

Concealed within our strength is our weakness.

> >And, "lucky charm lies" can take many forms,
including physical,
> which might
> >be subject to verification, additional
investigation and other
> stuff I don't
> >want to happen to me lucky charms, because I might
want the
> enemy to believe
> >they are TRULY "lucky," "charmed," and "mine."
> >I'm sure "it depends," but perhaps that wisdom came
from just such a
> >situation.
>
> Oh really? *blink blink* like what?

"The Allies are landing at Normandy!"

..."It's just a trick."

"What does German intelligence say?"

...Just what the British told them.

The comment was from a review of FORTITUDE (deception
plan) by one of the
British designers.

We could learn a lot from them --- save hundreds of
thousands of lives by
using these concepts defensively, domestically, and in
new contexts. With
each day that passes, we loose more of the window, and
waste our resources
on low-return countermeasures which do nothing but
present 'barriers of
certainty' to our adversaries, albeit a thin veil of
comfort to our
population. (I frequently point out that the Germans
practically held hands
along railways, and we still blew them all to heck in
WW II.)

In some places, we are taking actions that play into
deception designs.
Maybe we should chan

WHY

[San Digger]

Why do you let woman post to this list?
this girl code.
Aimee i'am looking for the sheep

e:

> Aimee wrote:
>
> > > To wit, no two people can safely tell the
same
lie to the same person.
>
> Bah. I say it depends entirely on what the lie
is,
who's being
> lied to, and how
> confident and artistic the confidence artists
are.

You're probably right.

> Choate:
> > Actually they can, only one (or both, if we
allow
3 or more agents, only
> > one is required to 'know' the lie) of the
people
must believe it is the
> > truth.
>
> If they were good enough (and their
targets
comfortable enough), all three
> could be lying their asses off about anything
and
nobody would ever be the
> wiser. Likewise, with three or more targets
playing
it the other
> direction.
>
>
> >Well, I doan' kno' nuttin' 'bout no agents.
That
fact has been
> established.
>
> Careful parsing is the spice of life...
:P

So sayeth the academic-researcher-grad student
pretext... :P

> >But, you know, after pondering on that a
bit...What
if "the lie" was
> >supposedly "really secret stuff?"
> >You know, "ME LUCKY CHARMS!"
> >I know the little boys and girls are after me
lucky
charms.
> >If "3 or more agents" happen to run in the
door
with me lucky charms,
>
> Sounds about right.

Yep, they would be lucky and charming.

> >that might smell really fishy to some people
since
leprechauns
> are hard to
> >catch.
>
> Somewhere over the rainbow.

> >Furthermore, if you ask them about these
lucky
charms in isolation, they
> >better know the lucky charms like the back of
their
hand, or further
> >investigation is likely to review
not-so-lucky
inconsistencies. The
> >"knowing" part can be rendered irrelevant
by
context, indeed it is
> >sometimes imperative that everybody KNOW so as to
> provide...uhm.secondary
> >alternative consistency.
>
> But what about when the unlucky charmers
find
they're actually the victims
> of a
deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers
> kind of thing.

Recursive is just writing backwards.

> What shows that the snowers know they've slowly
been
snowed? Bet
> it keeps a lot
> of people awake at night, that one. Tricky,
but
fascinating. If
> anyone knows of
> any good links to counter-deception detection,
drop
me a line.
> Not sure how "on
> topic" it is, but something everyone here would
do
well to read
> about. Either
> that, or just default to not trusting anyone,
ever.
Works for me.

Empathy skills in personal matters.

On a grand scale:

1. counterdeception teams - multidisciplinary,
"non-cultured," outsiders --
creatives, narratives, hoaxers, jokesters, emplotters,
etc.
2. devil's advocacy in the event stream
3. competitive analysis
4. MUST HAVE: highest-level precision black channels
-- requiring nothing
short of a resurrection. Close surveillance. Sneaky
submarines are not good
enough.
5. Cultural change -- a bit of British eccentricity;
decision-maker
sensitization
6. Monitoring of foreign open source media and
organizational theme
variations (quantitative content and textual analysis;
inferential scanning)
7. Monitoring of internal organizational dissenters,
noncomformists and the
intuitives (instead of quashing them, solicit them)

Sounds down your alley of interests, interested in
your thoughts.

Due to the changing nature of the world, the U.S.
could easily find itself
hoodwinked, isolated, paralyzed and worse. It used to
be "Uproar in the
East, strike in the West."

Today, it's "Fool the Sky." (transparent or false-flag
cover plan)

Our goal-states, perceptions, decision-points, etc.
are there for all to
see. Most deceptions play upon expectations. Our
surveillance capabilities
and superior military seem to point to a BARBAROSSA
scenario -- a grand
deception.

Concealed within our strength is our weakness.

> >And, "lucky charm lies" can take many
forms,
including physical,
> which might
> >be subject to verification,
additional
investigation and other
> stuff I don't
> >want to happen to me lucky charms, because I
might
want the
> enemy to believe
> >they are TRULY "lucky," "charmed," and "mine."
> >I'm sure "it depends," but perhaps that wisdom
came
from just such a
> >situation.
>
> Oh really? *blink blink* like what?

"The Allies are landing at Normandy!"

..."It's just a trick."

"What does German intelligence say?"

...Just what the British told them.

The comment was from a review of FORTITUDE (deception
plan) by one of the
British designers.

We could learn a lot from them --- save hundreds of
thousands of lives by
using these concepts defensively, domestically, and in
new contexts. With
each day that passes, we loose more of the window, and
waste our resources
on low-return countermeasures which do nothing but
present 'barriers of
certainty' to our adversaries, albeit a thin veil of
comfort to our
population. (I frequently point out that the Germans
practically held hands
along railways, and we still blew them all to heck in
WW II.)

In some places, we are taking actions that play into
de

Re: Homeland Deception (was RE: signal to noise proposal)

[Jim Choate]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Aimee Farr wrote:

> Recursive is just writing backwards.

No it doesn't, it means 'write again'; as in over and over.


 --


 There is less in this than meets the eye.

 Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: signal to noise proposal

[Jim Choate]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Faustine wrote:

> Maybe, but whether they're picked up on is the only thing that counts.

Actually not, if the various agents involved act as if the lie is the
truth then at some point their actions will come into conflict. In fact
this sort of behaviour can lead to the failure of various sorts of
inter-personal commerce (not the money kind, definition #2) without the
individual agents necessarily ever understanding why.

Simply because nobody can stand up and say "That's a lie" doesn't render a
lie harmless.


 --


 There is less in this than meets the eye.

 Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: signal to noise proposal

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Aimee Farr wrote:

> You know, "ME LUCKY CHARMS!"
> 
> I know the little boys and girls are after me lucky charms.

Silly rabbit, Tricks are for kids!


 --


 There is less in this than meets the eye.

 Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: CDR: I have OCD and need help

[measl]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, John P. Clarke wrote:

> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:44:56 From: John P. Clarke
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CDR: I have OCD and need help
> 
> 
> I've read books, done therapy, and consulted with many for over 16 years
> without any substantial progress.  Among other problems, I need to deal
> with a mental compulsion to break apart words and phrases into
> symmetrical groups, the continual counting and sorting of everything I
> see, and the uncontrollable parade of ideas in my head competing for
> attention.  This interferes with concentration, impairs decision-making,
> and leads to frustration and depression.
> 
> I would welcome suggestions, possible solutions, reference materials,
> referrals, anything you might recommend.  Please email me at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Suicide.  Clean, easy, to the point...

> Thank you for your help.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> John P. Clarke

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

CNN.com - Suit seeks billions in slave reparations - March 26, 2002

[Jim Choate]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/26/slavery.reparations/index.html

-- 

 --


 There is less in this than meets the eye.

 Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: 1024-bit RSA keys in danger of compromise

[Eric Murray]

Here's the distribution of RSA key sizes in SSL servers, as
recorded by my SSL server survey in June 2000 and June 2001

RSA Server Key size
   Key bits2000 2001
2048 .2% .2%
1024   70% 80%
>= 1000 2%   .7%
>= 768  2%   1%
>512 -   0%
<= 512  25% 17%



Eric

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Re: I have OCD and need help

[Harmon Seaver]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 07:16:55PM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, John P. Clarke wrote:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:44:56 From: John P. Clarke
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CDR: I have OCD and need help
> > 
> > 
> > I've read books, done therapy, and consulted with many for over 16 years
> > without any substantial progress.  Among other problems, I need to deal
> > with a mental compulsion to break apart words and phrases into
> > symmetrical groups, the continual counting and sorting of everything I
> > see, and the uncontrollable parade of ideas in my head competing for
> > attention.  This interferes with concentration, impairs decision-making,
> > and leads to frustration and depression.
> > 
> > I would welcome suggestions, possible solutions, reference materials,
> > referrals, anything you might recommend.  Please email me at
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Suicide.  Clean, easy, to the point...
> 

   No, no, no, no -- it's simple and painless, just a good hit or two of DMT once a 
day until you get it straight. 



Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

Re: Lucrative Opportunity Awaits You 4376l4

[James Choate]

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___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

Re: PDC 2002-Participatory Design Conference-SWEDEN, June 23-25

[James Choate]

Registration Form Now Available: 
http://pdc2002.interactiveinstitute.se/
*

PDC 2002 --The Participatory Design Conference
http://pdc2002.interactiveinstitute.se/

PARTICIPATION AND DESIGN:
Inquiring Into The Politics, Contexts And Practices of 
Collaborative Design Work

June 23 - 25, 2002
School of Art and Communication, Malmo University
Malmo,  SWEDEN

Sponsored by Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility.
In cooperation with IFIP WG 9.1, Computers and Work

The Conference Theme
*
Since 1990, the Participatory Design Conferences have brought 
together
researchers and practitioners from a variety of disciplines and work
traditions, probing the social scope and practices of design of
technology. A core concern has been to understand how 
collaborative
design processes can be based on participation of the people 
affected by
the technology designed.

The involvement of users and the focus on human-centered design,
addressing the design of technology 'through the interface', were
pioneered by contributions to the Participatory Design Conferences.
Debates within the participatory design community have contributed 
to
the development of a new  IT design field emphasizing 
simultanously the
need for thorough studies of the context of use, the relevance of an
open and participatory design process, and concern for the political
aspects of the technology in use.

Today the collaborative nature of the design process and the need 
to
involve a large variety of stakeholders has gained wider acceptance. 
At the same time a fundamental uncertainty concerning the scope 
and
directions for the design of technology has created a growing 
interest
in innovative approaches to participation and design.

Inquiring into the contexts of use is becoming increasingly important 
as
part of design work. Ethnographic approaches to field studies are
producing valuable insights into existing and emerging practices of 
use,
but the transition from what we learn from studies of work practices 
and
social interactions to the design of a system, application or other
design products remains poorly explored. Despite a well established
literature on such approaches as contextual inquiry, focus groups 
and
cooperative prototyping, the potential of participatory approaches to
design oriented practice studies is often neglected in ethnographic 
approaches.

Altogether, collaborative design practices, although widespread, are
still not well understood. Design processes that are open to a large 
and
varied group of participants are lacking a firm grounding in analysis 
of
empirical studies and action research. How can the organisation of
design processes in time and space accomodate participation? 
What roles
do coordinating artifacts play in collaboration? How do design 
artifacts
serve as bridges or barriers to diverse uesrs, including users with
disabilities? What are the effects of distributed design processes on
patterns of participation?What kinds of dialogues are possible 
between
distributed design practices vs. local design practices and national 
or
regional cultures? How does the local design process relate to the
potential global outreach of the design?

The politics of design must address questions about what can be 
and what
should be designed. In a user-centered design process the 
distinction
between the designed artifact, the context of use and the process of
design may become blurred . Where does the design practice end, 
and the
practice of use begin? When the technology is becoming tailorable 
in
use, what is it then relevant to design for? How does participatory
design work allow for redesign and participation in use over time?

Inquiries:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

PDC 2002 Registration Form Now Available: 
http://pdc2002.interactiveinstitute.se/


Also Of Interest
**
DIAC 2002, Shaping the Network Society: Patterns for Participation, 
Action, and Change, Seattle, Washington, May 16-19.
http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02

ISCRAT, International Society for Cultural Research and Activity 
Theory, Amsterdam, THE NETHERLANDS, June 18-22. 
See  http://www.psy.vu.nl/iscrat2002/

DIS 2002, Designing Interactive Systems, in London, ENGLAND
June 26-28.
See  http://www.acm.org/sigs/sigchi/dis2002/

CSCW 2002 in New Orleans, LA, November 16-20.
See http://www.fxpal.com/conferencesworkshops/cscw2002/
***

> --
Susan Evoy   *   Managing Director 
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
P.O. Box 717  *  Palo Alto  *  CA *  94302USA
Phone: (650) 322-3778*  Fax:  (650) 322-4748
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
http://www.cpsr.org/


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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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___

 There is less in this than meets t

Re: Celebs Show All 8907sQGE5-121AGsJ4738ivEZ5-069s-29

[James Choate]

 
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___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

international observers killed in West

[James Choate]

  
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/26/mideast
/index.html 

___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

RE: Homeland Deception (was RE: signal to noise proposal)

[Aimee Farr]

And I thought you were from Texas. ;)

Hold it up to a mirror. 

(Well... it does make a point.)

~Aimee

> > Recursive is just writing backwards.
> 
> No it doesn't, it means 'write again'; as in over and over.
> 
> 
>  --
> 
> 
>  There is less in this than meets the eye.
> 
>  Tellulah Bankhead
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org
> 

John Wayne Bobbitt gets married again

[James Choate]

  
http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/News/03/26/showb
uzz/index.html#1 

___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

Arafat won't attend summit

[James Choate]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/26/arab.league/index.h
tml
   

___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

China bars U.S. ship from Hong Kong

[James Choate]

  
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/03/26/hk
.usnavy/index.html 

___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

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RE: signal to noise proposal

[Aimee Farr]

Faustine wrote:

> But what about when the unlucky charmers find they're actually the victims
> of a deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers-deceiving-the-deceivers
> kind of thing.
> What shows that the snowers know they've slowly been snowed? Bet
> it keeps a lot
> of people awake at night, that one. Tricky, but fascinating. If
> anyone knows of
> any good links to counter-deception detection, drop me a line.
> Not sure how "on
> topic" it is, but something everyone here would do well to read
> about. Either
> that, or just default to not trusting anyone, ever. Works for me.

I sent a silly "CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST" to the list and received a ton of
private replies. Very few selected one of the "available" answers. They
constructed alternative answersbut also alternative contexts,
observables and event streams, mostly in narrative. I didn't solicit them to
tell me what wasn't there, or to summon what didn't exist.

One psychological experiment presented a fault-tree to a group of mechanics.
It listed possible reasons that a car wouldn't start. Say reasons 1-10, *out
of 50 available.* After seeing the information presented like that, the
mechanics were hard pressed to come up with more than a handful of
additional alternatives -- when asked.

I'm not suggesting that my "woman amongst the ferns" is the equivalent of
that, but it could be suggestive.

Some of these guys can call the jinn.

~Aimee

Quayle wanted me liquidated, says

[James Choate]

  
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/
news/2002/03/27/wnz27.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/03/27
/ixworld.html 

___

 There is less in this than meets the eye.

  Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-forge.org


   

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Re: Homeland Deception (was RE: signal to noise proposal)

[Jim Choate]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Aimee Farr wrote:

> And I thought you were from Texas. ;)
> 
> Hold it up to a mirror. 

It's the same size it was before, only reversed.


 --


 There is less in this than meets the eye.

 Tellulah Bankhead
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: Homeland Deception (was RE: signal to noise proposal)

[Faustine]

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Faustine:
> Aimee wrote:

> >Well, I doan' kno' nuttin' 'bout no agents. That fact has been
> >established.
> Careful parsing is the spice of life... :P
>>So sayeth the academic-researcher-grad student pretext... :P

ITS A CONSPIRACY -some poor idiot, right now


> >But, you know, after pondering on that a bit...What if "the lie" was
> >supposedly "really secret stuff?"
> >You know, "ME LUCKY CHARMS!"
> >I know the little boys and girls are after me lucky charms.
> >If "3 or more agents" happen to run in the door with me lucky charms,
> Sounds about right.
>>Yep, they would be lucky and charming.

Ha! Look, even if you like the idea of PSYOPS in Afghanistan (for instance),
you have to admit whats surfaced in the media has been embarrassingly crude 
and ham-handed. I suppose the best you could hope for is that its really all
part of a play the idiot and look ineffectual strategy while diverting
attention from the real business at hand. Risky, at any rate-- since as any
good poker player knows, the merest twitch of the eyelid risks being
interpreted as weakness, causing your opponent to raise the stakes. Not good.
Failing any evidence to the contrary, its likely just wishful thinking though.
Im really not in the all feds are incompetent donutchompers camp, but more
and more its looking suspiciously like the donutchompers have the upper hand.
And whatever deceptive advantages might possibly come from the *public
perception* of rampant incompetence and donutchompery, the drawbacks are
deadly. Strength is good. I think Ashcroft and co. are making a HUGE mistake
playing up the Christian goody goody schtick it plays straight into the Arab
fundamentalist interpretation of the US; and the realists wont believe it (and
wouldnt give a crap anyway. And never did.) Even more worriesome, though, is
that some of them actually seem to believe it. America ought to deserve better
than to be run by a bunch of simps. Emphasis on ought.

By the way, did you catch the video of Ashcroft singing some cheezy
maudlin patriotic gospel song at a theological seminary? At a fake press
conference podium, yet. Surreal. Absolutely nauseating, made my blood boil.
Didnt know whether to laugh or throw up...

John Ashcroft SINGS! Let the Eagle Soar

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilm/product/film_credits/0,3875,2424640,00.html

AAAAAAaaaAAAGH! 
Ahem. Where were we.

As someone once said, Id rather side with someone who burns the flag and wraps
themselves in the Constitution than someone who burns the Constitution and
wraps themselves in the flag. 


> What shows that the snowers know they've slowly been snowed? Bet
> it keeps a lot of people awake at night, that one. Tricky, but fascinating. If
> anyone knows of any good links to counter-deception detection, drop me a line.
> Not sure how "on topic" it is, but something everyone here would do well to
> read about. Either that, or just default to not trusting anyone, ever. Works
>for me.

>>Empathy skills in personal matters.

You mean like gaydar for bullshitters? 
 

>>On a grand scale:

>>1. counterdeception teams - multidisciplinary, "non-cultured," outsiders --
>>creatives, narratives, hoaxers, jokesters, emplotters, etc.

Yeah but where? In the TLAs themselves? Consultants? Heres my card, Im with
Flimflam Inc, an In-Q-Tel startup... Wheres the oversight? Getting a room
full of natural-born bullshitters together sounds dangerous no matter whos
footing the bill. And put a con in a room full of squares call it personal
bias if you want to, but I know where Id put my money as to whod come out
ahead. Hm, unless you consider the case of Hanssen, the genuinely square con.
Just goes to show you the limits of pigeonholing and profiling.


>>2. devil's advocacy in the event stream

Yep. Complacently blocking out opinions you disagree with is always a bad idea. 

>>3. competitive analysis
>>4. MUST HAVE: highest-level precision black channels -- requiring nothing
>>short of a resurrection. Close surveillance. Sneaky submarines are not good
>>enough. 

Catch 22 re. the Deutch prohibition on working with scummy types. I think it
points to the need to re-evaluate exactly what it is were trying to
accomplish. 


>>5. Cultural change -- a bit of British eccentricity; decision-maker
>>sensitization

Reminds me of the classic story about the time Herman Kahn was asked about Dr.
Strangelove: "Dr. Strangelove would not have lasted three weeks at the
Pentagon... he was too creative."


>>6. Monitoring of foreign open source media and organizational theme
>>variations (quantitative content and textual analysis; inferential scanning)

Absolutely; open source analysis is for everyone.  


>>7. Monitoring of internal organizational dissenters, noncomformists and the
>>intuitives (instead of quashing them, solicit them)

Hey, Im game. Be sure to file all this under the expectation of being conned
category though. the niceties of g

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