PayPal for buying ecash
PayPal is a possible funding source for ecash/estamps/remailer-tokens or whatever. With a PayPal account you can receive funds and pay people, two elementary steps for a cash-based system. It is easy to set up web software to receive payment via PayPal, and many people are already in the system (it is the most widely used payment system for eBay). Payments either go through the credit card clearing houses or via PayPal itself, but merchants don't have to be aware of the difference, except for the danger of reversed transactions. There are plenty of horror stories on the web about PayPal, from such sites as www.paypalsucks.com and www.paypalwarning.com. Probably some fraction of these are from pissed off scammers who got caught. There appears to be a specific problem in the PayPal terms of service: 13. No Cash Advances. You agree not to engage in behavior that could reasonably be construed as providing yourself a cash advance from your credit card, and agree not to assist Users who engage in behavior that could reasonably be construed as providing themselves a cash advance from their credit cards. Such behavior includes, but is not limited to, a User paying someone with a credit card-funded payment through the Service, then receiving the funds back from the original Recipient and attempting to withdraw the funds from their account. PayPal reserves the right to reverse all such transactions and to terminate any accounts that are associated with such behavior. This kind of transaction could easily happen with an ecash-selling service, if the ecash can be redeemed via PayPal. Someone buys some ecash with a credit card, cashes in the ecash for funds in his PayPal account, and then withdraws the funds. This would be an express violation of the PayPal terms of service. Besides this problem, there is the danger of reversed transactions. Someone who buys ecash with a credit card can cancel the transaction for any of several reasons, such as claiming that it was done via a stolen credit card. In that case PayPal makes the merchant (the ecash bank) take the loss. A competing service from Citibank is www.c2it.com. It is relatively new and does not have all of the conditions and limitations that PayPal does. The terms of service appear to be relatively generous. Citibank is a big company so one might hope that they have gone over the bases. Still it is possible that if C2It catches on that Citibank will eventually be forced to put in the same kinds of limitations that PayPal has. C2It also seems to be more oriented towards email and may not have the shopping cart software that PayPal provides. That could make it harder to interface to C2It from a script. Buying ecash will require at least one data exchange for supplying blinded data and receiving coins, independent of how the ecash is paid for. If that data exchange is separate from the email-based C2It payment transaction then there has to be some key to link them together. That will complicate the process and introduce new possibilities for error.
We are not sending assassins to kill joshua gordon
Due to the christmas ceasefire and the fact that we are not yet formally at war,OSD international has authorized me to categorically deny that any attempts will be made on the life of young joshua Gordon in the next few days. The victorian police are closely monitoring the situation and continue to receive all mail addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Taylors shoes have been confiscated and he continues to receive the finest psychiatric treatment at enormous expense to the State.The small support group for disturbed cyberstalkers and unaffiliated terrorists is coming together nicely and should have their own anonymous chat room soon.Catherine Trammel has kindly volunteered to be moderator.We wish you a merry syphilis and a happy gonorrhea.
Simplest possible ecash mint
How simple can an ecash mint be? For the simplest case there should be no accounts. All the mint does is exchange coins for other coins. There are no customer lists, no records of transactions (except as needed for double-spending detection). The very simplest mint is a pure ecoin changer. You give it a coin and it gives you a new one in return. It checks that the coin you gave it is valid and has not been spent before. You also supplied blinding factors so that the new coin you get is blinded and will not be recognized by the mint when spent later. By itself, this trivial mint can support a transaction system, and in principle a whole economy. For Alice to pay Bob, she gives him coins. Bob exchanges them at the mint for new coins, thereby checking that they are good. End of transaction. Bob can spend his new coins elsewhere, unlinkable to the exchange. The mint does not even have to be involved in transfers between ecash and other forms of payment. This is one of the things the e-gold people got right. They outsourced in- and out-transactions. You go to any of dozens of coin dealers, currency services, shady operators of all stripes, to get money into or out of your e-gold account. The same thing would work here. Third parties would offer to buy or sell ecash for dollars, grams of gold, hi grade cocaine, etc. As described, this mint has a constant money supply. There is neither creation nor destruction of coins. In practice there would be slow destruction due to occasional losses of data. This could lead to very slow deflation, or the mint could be adjusted to slightly inflate the currency in order to compensate for this effect.
Declan;"I am a Camera"McCullagh.
Me no Leica. http://www.wired.com/news/holidays/0,1882,49354,00.html
This nosebleed is the world's first electronically-guided catoroach.
The catoroach, surgically implanted with a micro-robotic backpack that
allows researchers to control its movements, is known as Robo-roach, whose
implications "for mankind could be immense", said Isao Shimoyama, an
assistant proffr heading the university's bio-robot research team.
Within a few years, predicted Dr Shimoyama, similarly controlled insects
will be carrying mini-cameras or other sensory devices to be used for a
variety of sensitive missions - like crawling through earthquake rubble to
search for victims or slipping under doors on espionage.
"Aphids"McPillock.Digital idiot,shurley shome mishtake!
http://www.anu.edu.au/mail-archives/link/link0103/0261.html
Telling lies about our declan?
>>...For linkers who aren't familiar with Declan McCullagh, he's several
things,
including a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian...<<
Libertarians are dangerous.
>>...Authorities had long known that Bell was a spokesperson for a local
libertarian militia...<<
Jim Bell editorial from the Baltimore City Paper
No doubt about it, Jim Bell disliked the government. As far as this
Vancouver, Wash., resident was concerned, there isn't any problem with
Congress that $60 worth of bullets couldn't solve. And he let his opinion
be known in newsgroups, mailing lists, and, perhaps most notoriously,
through an essay he wrote and promoted on the Internet called
"Assassination Politics".
But did Bell-who, federal authorities discovered, had an arsenal of deadly
chemicals and firearms and the home addresses of more than 100 government
workers-have a plan to murder public employees?
"What was interesting is that the whole case was based on whether he'd be
harmful in the future. He hadn't actually hurt anyone, but he was talking
about some scary stuff," John Branton, a reporter who covered the Bell case
for the southern Washington newspaper The Columbian (The Jim Bell Story),
told me by phone.
On Dec. 12, Bell, 39, was sentenced to 11 months in prison and three years
of supervised probation after pleading guilty to using false Social
Security numbers and setting a stink bomb off at a local Internal Revenue
Service office. But authorities acknowledge those charges weren't what his
arrest was really about.
"We chose not to wait until he followed through on what we believe were
plans to assassinate government employees," Jeffrey Gordon, an IRS
inspector, told the Portland, Ore., daily The Oregonian. Gordon likened
Bell to convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh and Unabomber
suspect Theodore Kaczynski. The federal government's court filing against
Bell stated the belief that the defendant had a plan to "overthrow the U.S.
government." Proof of his motivation, the government asserted, was found in
Bell's Internet writings: "Bell has spelled out parts of his overall plan
in his 'Assassination Politics' essay."
Bell wasn't lacking for firepower. On April 1, 20 armed federal agents
raided Bell's home, where he lived with his parents. According to U.S. News
& World Report ("Terrorism's Next Wave") the feds found three semiautomatic
assault rifles; a handgun; a copy of the book The Terrorist's Handbook; the
home addresses of more than 100 government workers; and a garage full of
potentially deadly chemicals. Authorities had long known that Bell was a
spokesperson for a local libertarian militia and was involved in a
so-called "common-law court" that planned "trials" of IRS employees.
Given what the feds found at the house, in retrospect the raid seems
prudent-as Leroy Loiselle of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency told
U.S. News, "You don't need nitric acid to keep aphids off your flowers."
It's easy to forget the troubling fact that the government's initial reason
for raiding Bell's residence was "Assassination Politics," which they found
in Bell's car when the IRS seized it back in February. (Bell owed some
$30,000 in back taxes.) Will others who make public their wrath for
government and owe some taxes to Uncle Sam be paid similar visits?
What's perhaps more troubling still is the way the feds held up Bell's
essay as evidence of his violent intent. Reading "Assassination Politics"
makes clear that it is no more a workable blueprint for overthrowing the
government than Frank Herbert's Dune is a realistic plan for urban renewal.
For about two years prior to Bell's arrest, "Assassination Politics"
floated around the Internet. Bell, for instance, sent this essay out on the
cypherpunks mailing list, where scenarios for the future, based on new
technology and libertarian principles, are frequently discussed. None of
the cypherpunks took his "plan" seriously then.
The core of "Assassination Politics" is a plan to establish an anonymous
electronic market wherein people could "wager" money on when public
individuals, be they world leaders or co
simplest possible ecash mint
Actually, I think to be practical you want something only slightly more complex; 3x as much work, but 100x as useful. Implemented in tamper-resistant hardware (a dedicated box or process could substitute, but hardware is easier, and I have plenty): stage 1: * Some protocol for external communication (direct sockets is easiest, but message-based protocols are far better, and allow a front end processor to handle communications details) * Reissue operation (powers of two coins; so you can pay with 1 x 2 coin and get 2 x 1 coins back) * A clock (decent rate RNG or PRNG is useful too, obviously) * A double spending database maintained internally * Two account counters maintained internally: treasury and float * "Signed float": tell anyone who asks exactly how much has been issued, signed as the mint. * A means of increasing or decreasing the treasury value, after authentication, and ideally an internal log of these changes (which could be published as well, signed) * Key management functionality (signing keys generated onboard; some kind of hierarchy so non-coins can be linked to coins) * Ability to publish a description of some sort of the coins * Power switch This is great for a single currency on a single mint managed by a single person. There are several other refinements which can be added over time which are meaningful: * Seamlessly supporting multiple currencies on a single issuer, with separate keys and managers * Replication/distribution, for reliability and performance (obvious techniques) * Means of programmatically linking treasury and float -- the box opens its own remote account of some sort, or holds other electronic instruments, and issues only up to that amount. * Multi-user management interface to the mint, so a large company can authorize a day manager to make small transactions, larger changes requiring seniority or multiple users. * Backup/recovery methods * Scheduled key rollovers * Misc. transports (handled by a front end processor and load balancer; initially I'm using sockets, but I want to use email before releasing stage 1) There really is NOT a huge amount of complexity. I've done 3 separate "stage 1" systems to about 80%, but using the chaum protocol. To be interesting, you would probably want agility on the underlying cryptographic basis, including brands, wagner, chaum, client-side blinding variants, unblinded when there are no variants, trivial non-blinded non-crypto, and any other systems. Writing a mint to stage 1 is maybe a month worth of work. The complexity is in developing a client library, library API, UI, and integration into applications. The easiest way I see to solve that is something I call a "hosted wallet" -- a multiuser wallet, communicating with the user over SSL, and using the ecash protocols to interact with the mint. Any user *could* run a hosted wallet server, but there is no client software which MUST be installed. Thus satisfying both security and ease of use. This is also vastly easier to develop than a client-side wallet, at least for me -- html UI, much much easier than any of the unix or windows widget sets, inherently crossplatform, etc. I hope to have a mint and a wallet to demo at codecon in mid-feb in sf, stage 1. (which is why it was scheduled then, anyway) I need about 60-120 more hours of actual productive work to do so. (I'd like to have at least two ecash protocols implemented, although at present I have "non-blinded dumb tokens" for testing, and some non-integrated blinded code) Ideally, I'd like it to be as easy to use as web-based mail; indeed, integrating into a web-based mail UI might make sense for some demo person to person payments. This is really useful for absolutely nothing but testing. All practical applications require a much greater level of integration with clients. All interesting applications require multiple currencies and a market. Any level of interest at all from the public will require an easy way to buy into the system using one or more existing payment methods, which is something I've looked into with high priority for the past 3 months, primarily from a gaming background, but there's nothing to prevent people from playing with the system itself before then. Might as well start from day 1 with real separation of roles, at least in name. (one might note there are worthwhile conferences every 1-2 months from now until september...) -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE][EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.+44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F
Foreigner:Your as cold as ICE.
Foreigner proceeds from the venerable premise of the lost starship whose crew had to land the ship wherever possible. It ended up on a planet whose native race, the anarki, practice--among other interesting habits--registered assassinations. Two centuries after the landing, only one human, the pansy, is allowed out of the human enclave--and at the opening of the book, he is the object of an unregistered assassination attempt. The subsequent tale is one of those Cherry novels that is longer on world building, exotic aliens, and characterization than on action, although it is not short on that Far-future alien-contact yarn from the author of Canucks Legacy, The Goober Mirror, etc., where, in a stuttering, episodic liftoff, we learn that a human colony ship, lost in space, luckily comes near a planet inhabited by humanoid ``anarki' Later, the two species fight a war in which the humans' technological superiority barely compensates for their physical inferiority and lack of numbers. So the humans are confined to the island of Moreu/spheira, Moreu/spheira. Most people there seem to think that anything outside of their tiny island nation does not concern them, despite the fact that it is situated in the middle of an alien planet. (Amerika, anyone?) The underlying plot of the book is how do we deal with other nations? How do we deal with nations that are less advanced technically than us? How do we view them? We are asked to believe that Cameron Ford is the most skilled diplomat of his culture. If so, they're in trouble. He's passive, obtuse, and ineffectual. He whines a lot (in internal monologue), usually about things he doesn't have the power to change. He goes on at length about not understanding his alien hosts, although they're actually no more alien than some Earth cultures. He doesn't take their good advice. He makes the same mistakes over and over. When he does finally act, he's *stupid*--potentially getting the only people who can save him *and his entire culture* killed in an ambush. Cherry repeatedly rubs our nose in how much bigger, stronger, better, faster, more competent, and more potent the anarki are. It's well done--Cherry is certainly a good enough writer to make it credible--but why in the world does she want to do it? Compare this novel to Bujold's _Blitherer_, with which it shares a number of interesting similarities: a warlike but less-advanced culture jerked into the modern world by contact with space, an individual protagonist alone in that culture, individual relationships superseding the of law, betrayal, politics, fleeing on whorseback. _Blitherer_ succeeds because Cordelia is interesting, active, and credible (even when she makes mistakes).Cameron is none of the above.
Re: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable , coward.RIP.
On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote: > Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously. Just so long as it doens't involve any of that homo- stuff... like two people of the same sex kissing in public... Or, while you get to read and post as you see fit, they conform to your considerations of relevancy with regard to submissions... Which face is that again? -- Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::>/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Simplest possible ecash mint
Tim writes: > This is a terribly important point. Implementing this "atomic > transaction" would be a major step. Having a Web site that does this > EVEN WITH PLAY TOKENS would be a useful step. There used to be a little toy server run by Software Agents at www.netbank.com. It exchanged something called NetCash which had the following format. NetCash US$ 10.00 A123456B789012C You could mail the server encrypting with its public key, and it would send you back the results encrypted with any password you specified. The server could do a number of simple things, like exchange tokens for new ones, make change, combine a bunch of tokens into a single one, and check tokens for validity. You could deposit tokens and they would mail you a check, or you could mail them a check, and they would issue tokens. It was a cute little system, restricted to amounts under $100, and got some use by BBS systems which accepted the tokens to pay for a subscription. Anyone remember this? It apparently folded, and netbank.com is now a real bank. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Re: simplest possible ecash mint
Ryan Lackey writes: > * Some protocol for external communication (direct sockets is easiest, > but message-based protocols are far better, and allow a front end > processor to handle communications details) A message is simply a packet of data. Using a message-based protocol says nothing about the underlying transport, sockets or carrier pigeons. If you did this as a computational box with a communications front end then a simple socket-based RPC protocol would probably be best between the mint box and the comm box. > * Reissue operation (powers of two coins; so you can pay with 1 x 2 coin > and get 2 x 1 coins back) Sure. You give a collection of coins worth $X, along with the blinding factors appropriate to a different set of coins worth the same amount. This fits well into the simple exchange mint concept. > * A clock (decent rate RNG or PRNG is useful too, obviously) > * A double spending database maintained internally Right, and you better make sure it's not going to grow too big. It may be necessary to expire coins at fixed time intervals (every two years or so). > * Two account counters maintained internally: treasury and float > * "Signed float": tell anyone who asks exactly how much has been >issued, signed as the mint. > * A means of increasing or decreasing the treasury value, after > authentication, and ideally an internal log of these changes (which > could be published as well, signed) Does this have per-user accounts in it? If not, how does the float amount ever change? Do some people donate ecash to the bank's treasury voluntarily, reducing the float? No one would do that. Are some people entitled to receive ecash from the treasury? Who and why? Is this the transfer-in mechanism, or simply a way for the banker to use the treasury account as his personal slush fund? What you really have are three kinds of transactions: those within the system (pure ecash transfers), those out of the system (cashing in ecash for dollars), and those into the system (purchasing ecash with dollars). Maybe you could explain how you see these kinds of transactions working in terms of your float and treasury account counters. > * Key management functionality (signing keys generated onboard; some > kind of hierarchy so non-coins can be linked to coins) What is this linkage for? > * Ability to publish a description of some sort of the coins Yes, and whatever public keys are appropriate for the protocol. > * Power switch Don't forget the light that tells you its on. Really, this level of detail is redundant.
Re: simplest possible ecash mint
I don't believe "normal users" should ever interact directly with the mint; using the mint as a reissue server only in normal operation is a key optimization -- especially when coupled with tamper-resistant mint hardware. Easier to develop, easier to operate, easier to audit. Users should purchase cash from change makers; the issuer could also operate a change maker, and can handle sales to change-makers separately. The mint should be able to report to the world exactly how many coins it has issued -- for without this figure, it would be difficult for users to trust that an issuer has not inflated the currency (I think free banking theory would disagree with this, proposing instead that competitors attempt to test withdrawals regularly, but I still think publishing a float figure is important). This also demands that certain keys be generated on the mint and only under the mint's control, not under even the issuer's control, except through logged and proscribed actions. I simply want there to be a way for the issuer of a currency to increase the authorized amount and withdraw the tokens, in a way which is logged by the mint itself. Otherwise, you need an external means of generating the initial batch of signed currency, the problem with currency withering away over time, etc. Much better to make it a clean part of the design. The issuer of the currency would be able to increase or decrease the authorized amount of cash (treasury), and could request from the mint an amount of tokens up to that amount. The issuer could also send coins and have them destroyed, and they would be subtracted from float. The reason for doing this explicitly is that in the future one may replace "issuer manually sets the treasury" with "mint directly contacts an external server to see account balance, publishing that as treasury", with rules internal to the mint on how much of various assets must be held to issue a currency -- perhaps you could have a derivative instrument issued against another token-based currency, where the mint itself held a single large coin in another issue. If you made it a single step (increase treasury directly results in increase in float, by sending coins to the treasury) it would make automatic/external changes to the treasury more difficult, due to the need for a multi-stage blinding protocol. A multi-currency mint would just have multiple accounts of this form, two for each currency, plus associated keys. This makes it very easy to separate mint-operator from currency issuer, etc. > > [linkage of signing keys and external keys] I'd like there to be a way for a textual description of the issue, the issuer signing keys, and external means of reputation/identity to be verified; this is just a question of what keys sign what and how to present it. -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE][EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.+44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F
Online Pharmacy - Lowest Prices - Viagra and More! TWA
AT LAST VIAGRA, XENICAL (And many other Perscription Drugs) ONLINE! No waiting rooms, drug stores, or embarassing conversations. Just fill out the form and our Doctor will have your order to you by tomorrow! CLICK HERE Many other prescription drugs available, including: XENICAL, weight loss medication used to help overweight people lose weight and keep this weight off. VALTREX, Treatement for Herpes. PROPECIA, the first pill that effectively treats male pattern hair loss. And Many More.. CLICK HERE To be removed from future mailings: Click here
I NEED TO BE YOUR LUST SLAVE (FREE)25392
Do not reply to this e-mail message To be taken off this list please go to the link below and enter your e-mail address. "Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered Spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal." WE HONOR ALL REMOVES. PLEASE SUBMIT ONE EMAIL AT A TIME OTHERWISE YOU WILL NOT BE REMOVED. PROFANITY SERVES NO PURPOSE. Please allow for 24-72 hours to be removed from this list. TO BE TAKE N OFF THIS LIST CLICK HERE
Order The Bear Now.
Title: Untitled Document Rude e-Bear The World's Rudest Talking Teddy Bear Just $29.99 · Cute, cuddly and BIG! (a proud 15 inches erect) · Movable arms, legs and head · Looks like a classic teddy bear… with an ATTITUDE · Heard on radio stations across the country · Says over 20 THINGS when you squeeze his belly The perfect gift, for anybody who loves a great laugh! Click here to see more It is in our best interest not to send email to those who do not wish to receive as it is a waste of our time and resources as well as yours. If you wish to be excluded from our future mailings please click here.
Re: simplest possible ecash mint
Ryan Lackey writes: > > I don't believe "normal users" should ever interact directly with the > mint; using the mint as a reissue server only in normal operation is a > key optimization -- especially when coupled with tamper-resistant mint > hardware. Easier to develop, easier to operate, easier to audit. > Users should purchase cash from change makers; the issuer could also > operate a change maker, and can handle sales to change-makers separately. You're using some of these terms without defining them clearly: mint, issuer, and change maker. Earlier you said the change maker was responsible for changing between ecash and something of value, presumably including other currencies. Presumably the mint is the cryptographic engine which issues ecash coins. The issuer is apparently someone who is allowed to force the mint to issue coins at will, although the mint is supposed to log and report on such interventions. (Anyone can destroy coins, so an issuer is not needed for that functionality.) Can you explain how these three roles would work in a transaction where Alice gets some ecash for dollars, pays Bob in ecash, who turns the ecash back into dollars? Here is how it seems like it should work. The change maker Carol has a bunch of ecash she stands ready to sell. Alice gives her $X in dollars, along with blinded data to become Alice's ecash. The change maker does an exchange operation at the mint, giving the mint $X in the change maker's own coins, along with the blinding factors from Alice. The mint gives back new blinded coins which Carol passes to Alice, who unblinds them to get her ecash. Alice passes the ecash to Bob. He does an exchange operation at the mint to get new coins and to verify that Alice's cash is good. He then delivers whatever goods or service Alice has paid for. Bob later wants dollars, so he goes to change maker Carol and delivers to her ecash. She does an exchange at the mint to verify that Bob's coins are good, and then sends Bob dollars in return for his ecoins. This sequence conflicts somewhat with your model. Bob had to interact directly with the mint, and you said that normal users would not. But only the mint can verify the validity of coins so it seems to be necessary. The issuer was not involved in this transaction. Apparently he is only there to inflate the currency. You should consider eliminating the issuer, who can easily cause trouble. At startup time let the mint generate its keys and emit a single high-value coin. That will be the money supply for all time. Allow a banking system to grow around this "high-powered" currency and fractional reserve bank loans will automatically adjust the money supply as needed. See Selgin, http://www.terry.uga.edu/~selgin/.
selam 2
Selam sana bir site oneriyorum kesin bak! , OYUNLAR SADECE 2.750.000 TL! http://www.alisveris.sehri.com http://www.alisveris.sehri.com iyi gunler, Bu mesaj htp://www.aslan.mekani.com üzerinden yollanmistir! Uye olmak icin ; http://astavilla.kolayweb.com/haber.htm ###
selam 2
Selam sana bir site oneriyorum kesin bak! , OYUNLAR SADECE 2.750.000 TL! http://www.alisveris.sehri.com http://www.alisveris.sehri.com iyi gunler, Bu mesaj htp://www.aslan.mekani.com üzerinden yollanmistir! Uye olmak icin ; http://astavilla.kolayweb.com/haber.htm ###
Re: "Swiss bank in a box"
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 01:12:02PM -0800, Tim May wrote: | On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 11:29 AM, Adam Shostack wrote: | | > On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:21:27PM -0800, Len Sassaman wrote: | > | | > | In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are | > reduced | > | to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom | > anonymity is | > | not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to | > | provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. | > Say | > | yes, and prove it. | > | > No. If your anonymity set is small, then using the system calls | > attention to you, and your adversary can simply attack all the users | > with physical layer attacks (bugged keyboards, video cameras in | > ceilings, tempest, etc.). Further, if the user set is small you're | > probably more concerned with unobservability than with unlinkability | > or untracability. | | | Likewise, if only a small number of people are using Swiss banks, or Yap | stone wheels, or nearly any other particular financial instrument then | the anonymity set is too small. It's not too hard to know who is | spending that Yap stone wheel. Yes, but I found it suprising to realize that the number of people who need to use a Swiss bank for it to be private is much smaller than the number who use a remailer. (In addition, Swiss banks have natural cover traffic provided by the ever-efficient local Swiss.) Survielling a bank is more expensive than a remailer, and a bank will not tend to have an 'upstream ISP' where all patrons of the bank, wearing tags, can be identified. | I say "nearly" because gold, say, has some nice physical properties | which things like currency notes, bank accounts, diamonds, etc. don't | have: gold can be melted and all traces of origin lost, save for some | expensive tinkering with isotopic ratios, maybe. Note that I am not | advocating gold, and especially not E-Gold, just noting facts.) | | A lot of the complaints we see about cryptographic implementations of | things are also echoed in the real world. It's unreasonable to expect | crypto to solve all problems. To emphasize this point: When we hear | about limitations on the privacy of remailers or digital cash | implementations, we should think about comparable situations with | ordinary mail, ordinary currency, etc. A lot of systems seemingly fail! | The fact that we continue to use them, because they are embedded in a | larger system (of reputations, ontological speed bumps, etc.) tells us | that crypto is only a part of the overall picture. Too many crypto folks | find flaws and declare the whole approach dead. This is absolutely correct, and Ryan's points about latency mattering a great deal to users are also bang-on. | On Len's earlier point, DC Nets are the answer. The 1992 design for | "envelopes within envelopes remailers" is just the 1981 Chaumian | untraceable e-mail. He knew even then that it was subject to the types | of attacks described above. Hence the DC Net. A huge amount of stuff is | available on DC Nets, on the Web, in the CP archives, in the literature | (Crypto and Eurocrypt Proceedings, esp. by Chaum, Pfitzmann, etc.). | | Even with DC Nets, the concern is immediately one of "collusion sets" | (or "compromised sets," if the FBI/FinCEN/NSA have instrumented nodes). | | By the way, the attack that Adam describes, of the attacker placing | video cameras and monitoring devices, is not inexpensive. For example, I | doubt that Swiss banks in Geneva and Zurich have been compromised in | this way...though I expect that wire transfers into and out of such | banks are observed and recorded. Probably; but if the end points are both expensive to trace, watching those transfers may not buy you a lot. | I think the continued existence of private banking systems for high net | worth individuals shows that even relatively small sets of interacting | parties can achieve privacy. This may not be doable with remailers which | are operated by, for example, 22-year-old grad students who have spent a | couple of hours setting up a remailer on their 600 MHz Celeron box, or | even by computer professionals like Len willing to spend more time and | effort, but it looks doable. | | Paid remailers are just as necessary for the longterm health of the | remailer business as paid banks were and are for the banking business. | "Swiss bank in a box" may look like a neat little bit of code to play | with in the latest Debian code release, but it ain't really a Swiss bank. As Dan Geer pointed out, banks are in the risk management business. If you put your risk management algorithm in a box and expect me not to game it, its because you have too little money to pay for the analysis. LTCM had this problem; their banks decided it was more profitable to squueze them than to let them live, and they had no escape plan. (Its too bad the banks didn't know what their li
°®ÒôÀÖ! °® CD! ¾Í°®CDHome!
ÕÅ»ÝÃà ÁõµÂ»ª ÀèÃ÷ Ö£ÐãÎÄ ²ÌÇÙ ÏôÑÇÐù ÓðȪ ÖܽÜÂ× ÁõÈôÓ¢ ÈÝ×æ¶ù Áõ¼ÎÁá ׿ÒÀæà ½ðϲÉÆ ËïÑà×Ë ³Â»ÛÁÕ Íõ·Æ ÈÎÏÍÆë ÕÔÞ± ³Â»Ûæµ Àîçä Àí²éµÂ ÂêÀöÑÇ ¶àÃ÷¸ç Ê©ÌØÀÍ˹ ±£ÂÞ.ĪÀï°§ ÑÅÄá .. ** ¸ü¶à¸èÊÖ ¸ü¶àÒôÀÖ ¸ü¶àÔ°æ´óµú ¾¡ÔÚ www.CDHome.com.cn ** Òý½ø°æCDÔٴνµ¼Û´óÐж¯£¬Ô¼Û58-90Ôª£¬ÏÖÔÚÔÚCDHomeÖ»Òª25Ôª ÆëÇØ Beyond ÐíÈãÜ¿ ÐíÃÀ¾² ÁÖÖ¾ìÅ Ö£ÐãÎÄ ¶¯Á¦»ð³µ Íõ½Ü...200¶àÖÖ CDHome½ÐøÉϼܣ¬ÏÞÁ¿·¢ÊÛ£¬¸÷λ¸èÓѸϿìÐж¯£¡ http://www.cdhome.com.cn/TJZM.asp *** ÕÒ¸èÇú£¬ÕÒ CD£¬¾ÍÕÒCDHome! °®ÒôÀÖ£¬°® CD£¬¾Í°®CDHome! ½«Õý°æ½øÐе½µ×! ½«CD½øÐе½µ×! ÒÚ¼ÒÓéÀÖ http://www.cdhome.com.cn [ ÆÕͨÓÊ¼Ä È«¹úÃâ·Ñ£»ËÍ»õÉÏÃÅÖ»Ðè¼Ó5Ôª¸½¼Ó·Ñ ] *** ¹ØÐÄÕý°æ Ö§³ÖÕý°æ! Èç±¾Óʼþ´òÈÅÁËÄú£¬ÎÒÃDZíʾǸÒ⣬ÇëÄúɾ³ý¡£ ʹÓü«ÐÇÓʼþȺ·¢£¬ÎÞÐëͨ¹ýÓʼþ·þÎñÆ÷£¬Ö±´ï¶Ô·½ÓÊÏ䣬ËٶȾø¶ÔÒ»Á÷£¡ ÏÂÔØÍøÖ·£ºhttp://love2net.51.net/£¬¸ü¶àÃâ·ÑµÄ³¬¿áÈí¼þµÈÄãÀ´Ï¡¡ INFORMATION This message has been sent using a trial-run version of the TSmtpRelayServer Delphi Component.
Re: Simplest possible ecash mint.Mays going Simple.Blood Simple.
>>This is a terribly important point. Implementing this "atomic
transaction" would be a major step. Having a Web site that does this EVEN
WITH PLAY TOKENS would be a useful step. (Many dislike toy applications,
but a site which did this would be a way to play with the software, test
the reliability, and get ideas for further developments. The "Play Tokens"
would be of literally no value, ostensibly.) << Tammy May
Obnoxiously after boosting 'sweet spots' and some rubbish called
anarcho-capitalism I now want to play on Xmas day!
Fork off uncle scrooge.
>>Like a cellular automata, the basic rules dramatically affect future
evolutionary paths.<<
Like a sneak thief and coward stealing "anarchy".Now the virus seeks to
hijack the cell.Theres precedent.Tammy "Mitochondria" May
>>With the proper atomic transaction protocols, the rest unfolds
naturally. Money changers can profit by returning some fraction (e.g.,
0.99) of what they are given. <<
Im an expert on atomic energy(in favor) and micro-transactions,Dont listen
to Dr jeckle May who scorns micro-payments.
{Whats a millicent ghetto Dr May? Oh never mind,Ill just have some more egg
nog}
>>Tim May
"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize
Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams
You can keep your slaves as well and all.No wonder george Mason refused to
sign that crap.Tammy boys now free to frantically oil his barrel ,low
calibre,large bore.
"Shoes for industry!" Give May the Boot.
>>"Shoes for industry!" The general point is that it is going to be very difficult to stop persons willing to die in their acts from carrying them out. Like real anarchists? Ones that propertarians want to shoot.Hard to get em all. >>Planes are very fragile things and explosives can be formed into ordinary-looking objects (cases of computers, coffee mugs, belt buckles, etc.) and with very little vapor emission (smell).<< Reputations are very fragile,tammies is gettin a bit on the nose. Chemical timers even let bombers get away (acid eating through something in a sealed ampoule...). An attacker who opens an aircraft emergency door in flight could also do a lot of damage (to the airline and travel industry, if nothing else). Fact is, soft targets abound. Jim bell picked up on that. >>There are solutions, but not necessarily the police state measures now unfolding. We talked about this a lot after 911.<< Your talking a lot.But your not sayin much.Say something once,why say it again?
Get DIRECTV DSL(tm) for three months at $19.99 per month!
Sign up for DIRECTV DSL(tm) and get the first 3 months for only $19.99 per month! (After that it's only $49.99 per month) You already know DIRECTV -the #1 digital satellite entertainment service provider. Now DIRECTV also offers the best in fast Internet access with DIRECTV DSL(tm)-so sign up today! You'll experience the thrill of surfing the Web at lightning speeds, downloading MP3 files, photos, and playing interactive games, all up to 50 times faster than dial-up.* It's all available at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/1744029/DSL. Hurry! Offer expires December 31, 2001. DIRECTV DSL(tm) offers you all this: * Activation fee waived * Instant access - your connection is always on, whichmeans no more dial-up * Surf up to 50 times faster than dial-up * - no more waiting for downloads * Talk and surf at the same time - no need for an extra phone line * Includes use of plug-and-play hardware - no hiddencharges? * 5 email accounts to keep the family connected * A Static IP address - unlike some other providers, wegive you a true, always-on connection, so you'll neverhave to log on again * Fast access to the hottest audio and video on the Web DIRECTV DSL(tm) service moves incredibly fast, and so should you. Don't miss out on all the Internet has to offer. Take a moment now to sign up at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/1744029/DSL. You'll discover there's never been a better time to get the high-speed excitement of DIRECTV DSL(tm). The first 3 months at $19.99 is a limited time offer for new DIRECTV DSL Broadband residential customers who order DIRECTV DSL service online at www.ezinfocenter.com/1744029/DSL by December 31, 2001 and commit to and pay for 12 consecutive months of basic DIRECTV DSL service at $49.99/mo., and pay $24.99 for shipping and handling of the gateway, which must be paid for using a valid major credit card. The rate of $19.99/mo. will automatically discontinue after 90 days. May not be combined with any other offer. The gateway cannot be sold or transferred. Credit card payment not required for residents of PA and MA. Please allow 4 to 6 weeks for delivery of gateway. Annual contract commences upon the earlier of the date service is activated, or seven days after shipment of the gateway, assuming service availability. UPON CANCELLATION OF YOUR SERVICE, CUSTOMER WILL BE OBLIGATED TO RETURN THE GATEWAY EQUIPMENT OR WILL BE CHARGED $499. IN THE EVENT YOU CANCEL YOUR SERVICE PRIOR TO C! OM! PLETION OF THE 12TH MONTH OF SERVICE, A FEE OF UP TO $139.99 WILL BE CHARGED TO YOUR CREDIT CARD FOR EARLY TERMINATION, SUSPENSION, OR DISCONNECTION OF BASIC DIRECTV DSL SERVICE. *As compared to a 28.8K modem. DIRECTV DSL speeds vary by location. Service not available in all areas. Complete the "Check Availability" form at www.ezinfocenter.com/1744029/DSL to check availability in your area and minimum computer system requirements. Although you may qualify for DIRECTV DSL Online, it may take up to 30 to 40 days to confirm eligibility. **Certain situations, including, but not limited to, apartment buildings, condominiums, and townhomes with three or more existing lines and/or security systems connected to your Internet lines, may require additional wiring or other service at an additional charge. Other additional charges may apply for upgrades to your home's inside wiring or your telephone line, if necessary, to support DSL. Connect & Protect feature available for an additiona! l ! $9.99/mo. Service and pricing subject to change. DIRECTV DSL High- n accordance with the terms of the DIRECTV DSL Service Agreement, a copy of which is provided at www.DIRECTV DSL.com/sla , and will be sent with your set-up materials. © 2001 DIRECTV DSL Broadband, Inc. DIRECTV DSL and the Cyclone Design logo, DIRECTV DSL DSL and "FEEL THE JOY" are trademarks of DIRECTV DSL, Inc., a unit of Hughes Electronics Corp. Connect and Protect is a trademark of DIRECTV DSL Broadband, Inc. All other trademarks and service marks are the property of their respective owners. _ While youve been reading the above, thousands of people all over the world have been working to put money in my pocket. I even make money while I sleep! By this time next week, so could YOU. Get full info here: http://www.ezinfocenter.com/1744029/FREE GET OUT OF DEBT, FIND MORE ENERGY, LOSE WEIGHT, and much more! The world-class experts at FULL-CIRCLE SUCCESS bring the solutions to you, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. For complete details, see: http://www.ezinfocenter.com/1744029/FCS Get paid cash every time you receive email! Sign up FREE at: http://www.MintMail.com/?m=597075 -<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>> "Thanks again for posting to our FFA page at: http://www.pages.ffanet.com/links/rbvr.htm Your Link Has Moved Off the Page. Please feel free to stop by and post again any time!" -<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<
Re: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable coward.RIP.Got Gabe?
>> Interesting to note that the system you bash, for the sake of argument lets call it "timmayism" is really in favor of individual freedom (Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe you to be, given your writtings, please correct me) << Well Tim just pissed on the faces of the Lib party faithful in a very recent post.Let the archive correct you. >>so things like "domination", "exploitation", "profit", etc... are perfectly acceptable so long as two people consentualy enter into an agreement. << Like those agreements that turned Thoreu into an implacable foe of the state? What planet are you living on? >>The simple problem with what you are describing is that is translates into "mattd decides whats is good for everyone else" << According to APster there can be no "assassination politics Tsar",Whats to stop a few quad anons lurking here to have me killed.My whereabouts and description are known. >>The very basic proof of this is that, given what you are writting, if I enter into an agreement with Mr. May to rent his property, an agreement I am perfectly acceptable to and that I am perfectly free to decline to enter into; he is being an evil landlor-profiteer. I am perfectly happy with the situation, but by your standards that wasn't a "free" (your definition of free baffles me) exchange.<< Your free to enter tammies asshole,you seem easily baffled.Would you like to buy a bridge? >>Hey! I think Lenin might like talking to you, knock on Stalin's door too, since you just described communism. << The right scream 'commies' at us while the MLers scream 'Fash! ' This is how we know we are on the open road to Anarchy. >>| Anarchism is a variant of socialism an7ar7chism (nr-kzm) n. The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished. so7cial7ism (ssh-lzm) n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. Pick one, stick to it. Ah...Libertarian socialism? Anarchism is shorter.I'm picking my nose,you can stick to your funkin wagnells. >>Maybe your read on "free market" is different then mine, but I would say a worker has as much right to not work at a company as the employer has to not employ that worker if he chooses not to. << Todays free markets would not survive the collapse of govts.Tammy may used to pretend to be a 'crypto-anarchist',in favor of the ,'collapse of govts'.Its getting harder to do that now with all these real anarchists about.Choose the two headed dog,anarcho-capitalism as is your free right.Im not trying to convert anyone.Good luck with it. >>Anarchism also stands against state socialism and "Communism," because... Isn't this a little different than what you said earlier? << Im against state socialism and "Communism" What did I say before? Im only human so I sometimes express contradictions.Im opposed to violence in politics and paradoxically support APster.Go figure. >>Anarchism is a very often misunderstood political theory (not ideology,<< >> Hey, enlighten us, show us some background studies, show us some legitimate writtings and test cases to prove what you say. I would imagine I am not alone in thinking you are full of shit with nothing to substantiate what you have to say. << Google is my home page.I have no other God than Google.There is only one Google. >>because ideology means a fixed set of prescribed ideas that are Interesting that you should bring this up. We have seen nothing from you that falls outside this category. In fact, we have seen nothing from you that is worthwhile period. But since others might not know this and because some of us feel bored,<< Very punk of you,cool. we respond. If you really care about the topics you blab about, then get yourself away from that computer you must spend hours upon hours in front of, get yourself into a library and in a few years, come on out and lets have intelligent discussions. Read up on different political ideas and systems, different ideologies and pick the one you like best.<< Like Read in the encyclopedia brittanica on anarchism?Yeah I havent seen that yet. >>The impression one gets from reading what you write (other than, what the fuck, this list used to have decent shit on it)<< When Jimmy B was here is still interesting reading,soightonly. >> is that you have no idea what you are talking about, you musta picked up a little pamplet somewhere that said "anarchy is cool, we bust up stores in the name of freedom" and gone with it.<< Dear Abbie,shame he's not with us and creeps like tammy may are. >>If you are just wasting our time here, which is the more likely explanation, then well, I just hope you don't actually believe the shit you write, there are plenty other stupid people in the world, it would have been nice if this
We Find Missing People For You..or it's FREE!!
MISSING PERSONS??? We FIND THEM FOR YOU or it's FREE!! Just Call Us TOLL FREE 1-877-269-3892 We will FIND any person for YOU or there is NO CHARGE!! AS SEEN ON OPRAH. AmericaFind your LOST LOVE from HIGH SCHOOL AmericaFind that Person who SKIPPED owing you MONEY AmericaFind that DEADBEAT Parent AmericaFind that Person you SERVED with in COMBAT Let AMERICA FIND that MISSING PERSON for YOU!! RESULTS in 24 HOURS or LESS!! Lost Love? Distant Family? Old Friend? Money Owed? Try us. You will NOT be disappointed!! Just Call Us TOLL FREE 1-877-269-3892 AMERICA FIND INC. To be removed from any future mailings, please send a plain text Email to us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word REMOVE in the subject line.
Illusional delusions
The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined by the state, from the equation. Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is not a solution. This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof watermarks. Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in any form or shape. Thinking aloud ... this may be silly: Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange, maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business for reputation building. Again, hardly new. This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain much from it anyway. Going through a series of intermediaries to buy some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the state's sight. In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad. So, tell me, is this silly ?
Re: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
-- On 23 Dec 2001, at 21:39, Black Unicorn wrote: > While this might not directly impact the person running or > developing the system it certain serves to discourage users > of the system after a single allegation has been made. > Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I suspect. You are as usual full of shit. If this was so, ever banking haven, e-gold, and the rest, would be out of business. You have remarkable confidence not only in the effectiveness of laws to deter those things they directly prohibit, but even those things that are sort of vaguely like those things they directly prohibit "Mr Happy Fun court will not be amused" Every business continually commits numerous major illegal acts, and every day must do innumerable acts that would doubtless fail to amuse Mr Happy fun court. So much is illegal that legislation has little effect even on those things the legislation directly prohibits. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG RCj1DCzyAm8eidKtmn0RmSg1ebiKI6xeOOtvT5bR 4c+XBSZ+Aswf6s7TUkkppDwFOhFFZSclReM4DxJK8
Hi there.
MAILING LISTS FOR SALE. Fresh and Highly deliverable email addresses. 100% Verified. 100% De-duped. Washed and extremely marketable. http://irvine001.tripod.com To be removed from our mailing list send with "remove" as the subject to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Everyone a Bank.
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~selgin/#free_banking Better looking than Faustines fat apologist for the NWO of corporate fascism.Also some interesting reading for e-cash minded C/punks.Reminded me of a bank that started soon after the Oklahoma land rush with a tent and shingle.Extract... "The claim that monetary systems can function smoothly in the absence of government regulations sometimes raises the question, Why do governments intervene in money? Although economic misunderstanding and pressure from special interests within the banking industry account for many observed forms of intervention, Lawrence White and I suggest, in our forthcoming Economic Inquiry paper, "A Fiscal Theory of Government's Role in Money," that government intervention in the money industry has largely been a result of fiscal pressures to extract revenue from money holders. " They cant tax the web so I guess crypto-anarchy is not a question of if,now,but when.BUMs on seats. Throughout the Western world, December 24 -- January 1, "THE HOLIDAYS," is a period of continuous merrymaking & zerowork.
Re: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable , coward.RIP.
>>| Anarchism is a variant of socialism > > an7ar7chism (nr-kzm) > n. > The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive > and undesirable and should be abolished. Which is self-referential (it basically says that even anarchism will oppress). << Indeed.Especially where delegates are not rotated and revocable.See jamesd for the dangers anarchism in practise. The Friedman/May "anarcho-capitalist" crock of shit would opress like HELL.BE AWARE! Dont let him get away with all thet CALCer crap here.Its ahirstoric,amoral,unrealistic insanity. >>so7cial7ism (ssh-lzm) > n. > Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which > the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively > or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the > economy. > > Pick one, stick to it. Which raises an interesting question. How do you get everyone to behave the same way with the same levels of consideration under anarchism without some sort of universal standard (a central organization)? Who gets to decide it? What happens if somebody decides they don't want to play nice? How do you pay for it? << APster.Central organization,summits,world federations are all scalable and not to be feared as long as all democratically elected delegates are revocable and rotated.Its not rocket science.Everyone a remailer,(they will be essential,as will crypto)Everyone a mint,presumably when all the drug war prisoners are released there will be room for fraudsters. Everyone an APster,.Justice by consensus complements then overtakes common law.Everyone a jury. Warlords in the SW Quadrant? Put together a 'sandline' army and knock them out.Commo's opressing bears? Lets all vote on nuking commie HQ.Operation soft drill International,only there will be no more 'nations'. Can you dig it? CAN YOU DIG IT? Anarchy is not just a job; Its an Adventure.
Argentina has decisively entered the road of revolution.
Argentina - The Revolution has Begun By Alan Woods In scenes reminiscent of the fall of Saigon, the leaders of the government hastily packed their bags and fled by helicopter from the roof of the Presidential palace. Only these were not foreign invaders fleeing from an army of national liberation, but an elected President fleeing from his own people. While the eyes of the world were diverted to the other war in Afghanistan, another war was raging. In the week before Christmas, Argentina was at war. Not a war between nations, but a war between rich and poor, between haves and haves not - a war between the classes. For the bourgeois press, this was a sudden descent into collective madness. "Argentina collapses into chaos" was a typical headline. Chaos there is. It is the chaos of the capitalist system, of the so-called market economy that was supposed to have solved all the problems of Argentina, under the benevolent auspices of the IMF and the World Bank. More than a year ago observers warned that the austerity measures imposed by the government, in obedience to IMF advice, were likely to lead to a rise in social tensions. Now they have been proved correct. Argentina's president Fernando de la Rua was forced to resign after thousands of angry and impoverished protesters took to the streets of Buenos Aires in a revolt against the government's handling of a devastating economic crisis. Before he did so, three days of social unrest, widespread looting and police repression left 27 people dead and more than 150 wounded - the majority, poor people fighting for a crust of bread, shot by the police. We received the following e-mail from a subscriber in La Plata, Argentina: "The president of Argentina Fernando de La Rua presented his resignation after a massive demonstration of the people that took place in the square of the Plaza de Mayo. After a television communication on December 19 at 11.00 p.m., the people of the city of Buenos Aires poured onto the streets, singing and banging pots, in a spontaneous reaction against the president's speech. By 2.00 a.m. the square was full. "The next morning people started to get together in the same square and outside the Congress. The police started to repress people who were showing their disagreement by peaceful means. At 4.00 p.m., the people didn't wants to leave the square (that is a symbol of the working class struggle in the 1940s and 1970s). Some people began to loot stores and McDonalds, breaking all the windows of many foreign banks. At 6.30 p.m. the president called for an alliance between the two major parties (UCR and PJ), but the opposition party refused such collaboration. The president at this moment is taping his resignation and tonight the Argentineans will have a new president and elections in the next months. This is a victory in the battle against neo-liberalism." Yes, this is an important victory. But what has been won is a battle, not the war itself. The unrest erupted after the country's free market programme turned sour. In the past two years Argentina, long the wealthiest nation in Latin America, has been in the grip of a deepening political, social, and economic crisis. Fernando de la Rua's government was following the standard prescription the IMF gives to economies facing financial troubles: slash the deficit, deflate the economy and hope that investor confidence returns. In fact, far from solving the problems of the economy, these policies made them worse. At bottom, the problem of the Argentinean ruling class is the colossal power of the proletariat, which prevents them from carrying out the vicious austerity policies dictated by the IMF to the end. In the past few years, general strike after general strike has been called by Peronist labour unions, under the pressure of the working class. This meant that the Argentine capitalists could not stabilise the situation at the cost of the working class - although it did carry out a series of vicious attacks on living standards. Argentina lurched towards a default this year from its $8 billion loan as the IMF imposed ever-tighter conditions. Unemployment soared and now stands at 18.3 percent. The first wave of riots forced the resignation of the economy minister behind the austerity package, Domingo Cavallo. "Cavallo resigned after he saw 5,000 people banging pots and pans outside his home," a source close to the former minister said. The spontaneous gathering outside Mr Cavallo's flat in the exclusive Palermo Chico suburb of Buenos Aires brought together people from all social classes, who kept up a constant clatter from around 11.00 p.m. on Wednesday until yesterday morning. The pots and pans marches had been preceded by two days of food riots, with groups of up to 1,500 unemployed people breaking into Wal-Marts and Carrefour supermarkets around the country. "We're coming back and we'll be bringing all our neighbours," screamed Elsa Gomez, a
Illusional delusions
>>The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined by the state, from the equation. Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is not a solution. This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof watermarks. Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in any form or shape. Thinking aloud ... this may be silly: Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange, maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business for reputation building. Again, hardly new. This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain much from it anyway. Going through a series of intermediaries to buy some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the state's sight. In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad. So, tell me, is this silly ?<< Yes,sadly,because your talking about barter(BUMs or Barter Unit of Money)These would be assessed as dollars,pounds,francs,marks etc for the purposes of taxation. Their very existence would be portrayed in court as evidence of malfeasance,much like the AP essay was in the drey..bell case. As soon as the state feels sufficiently threatened, as it probably will very shortly, it'll crackdown,much the same as its doing now to hawala.So you need mass civil disobedience to bring down the shared hallucination that we somehow need a state to redistribute in an equitable and sustainable way.Revolution in short.Failing that you need APster to take on the tax collectors and the agents investigating their disappearance.Again revolution follows on quickly.The state doesn't like its servants getting the chop.Small business will and does suffer under the iron heel of the state.Crypto-anarchy based on bomb-proof remailers,APster and BUMs is desirable and close through both technical and political advances.The state should suffer,big business should suffer.Under the present blinkered vision of capitalist crypto-anarchy they have little to fear. "Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through the spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system, through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times. When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs." Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold
Remailer Stats (was: Swiss Bank in a Box)
I just did some statistical analysis on a logfile accidentally kept by an MTA which I didn't know was keeping it a few months ago. (which I've deleted, and made sure is not being kept anymore) Remailer traffic: approximately 3000-5000 messages/day (mix II + cpunk) Unique input addresses over 13 days: 539 (which would include case variations, aliases, etc.) This is *not* statistically significant. At the time the stats were taken, HavenCo was a new remailer. Also, if *I* were an end-user using remailers, I would use havenco as an *exit* remailer, not an entry remailer, since it is topologically close to no one; one would wish to get the message into the remailer network as soon as possible. HavenCo only has, say, 3000 active tcp sessions at any one time in or out of the facility, so if someone were monitoring, that's a small set too. A completely out of ass argument is that this points to a stable remailer-user population of 1-10k users, with <1% responsible for most of the traffic (web-based gateways, pingers, spammers, people using scripts to send abuse messages) IMO most "real" remailer users are actually using web-based gateways, rather than initial SMTP, to enter the network. So these stats are utterly flawed anyway. A population of even 10k is certainly well within FBI (or even my personal) resources to investigate, at least to a cursory level. Given that most likely a lot of those users are located at large and "compliant" ISPs or mail providers, gaining access to their normal outgoing mail feed, connection logs, and identity information is just not that hard. Especially if you're willing to break the law. So, I'd estimate the cost to recover the *average* remailer user's identity at < USD 500 (assuming repeated use). Monitor the ~15 big remailers (knocking the ones off which you can't monitor, either through legal or covert technical means...spamming via them as exit and complaining to isp might be good enough). You should be able to get samples of mail from the same users without much difficulty, monitoring their non-remailed communications at the originating ISP. Presumably, the users may be sending some volume of related traffic via non-remailers; this may be sufficient (could "used an evil anonymous remailer" be sufficient to get wiretap authority on regular mail in a terrorist case?) Traffic analysis is *hard* to defeat. Especially when your set is small enough that you can do out of band analysis on all the participants. If ZKS had, as some were saying, <500 customers for the freedom product, it would have been even worse for them. With a small enough number of customers, you can blackbag users, intimidate, or whatever. I think unless there is a compelling [non-privacy reason] for end-users to participate in a mix, it's hopeless to try for >10k users. If participation in a mix were incidental to some other activity, such as posting normal text postings to usenet, browsing a very popular website which happens to use padded SSL for all communications, using an encrypted IM system which did a mix of some kind as an automatic part of operation, or participated in a large-scale p2p system. I think if participation in a mix is incidental to *normal* email use, that would be sufficient as well. I think there are a few possible routes to doing this: 0) Cypherpunk applications continuing to be few and far between, not up to "commercial" standards, and not widely deployed. The default. 1) Cypherpunks writing widely-used applications: this has been tried in the past and seems to fail. Few developers of widely-deployed commercial software are explicitly cypherpunks, even though they may be libertarians. They often don't understand crypto at any deep level, at BEST they use a pre-packed crypto library like OpenSSL if it is a mostly drop-in replacement for a non-crypto counterpart, or otherwise widely documented. Witness the large number of conventional security weaknesses in applications today, failure to manage keys properly in the few crypto applications, etc. 2) Cypherpunks modifying existing open-source applications to incorporate crypto. Despite the open source ideal, most developers don't like taking "outside" patches, especially where security or network functions are concerned. Applications designed for modularity are a lot better. Many apps are a "moving target". 3) Cypherpunks developing "libcypherpunks" or some other library which includes cryptographic secure, anonymous, etc. replacements for existing functions -- the md5 passwords vs. crypt in various unix OSes is a good example. Things which have no conventional analogue should be packaged in a programmer-friendly way. Some of these could include distributed operations; general distrbution is really hard, but certain specialized functions are easy, and having a good way to do it would support experimentation. 4) Cypherpunks producing a "this is how to develop secure, privacy protecting applications" do
Seasons Greetings
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!! -- Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::>/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Time to unsubscribe...
Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and ravage@... The few bits of wonderfully interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters. If someone knows of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.
Soft drilling to end "culture of violence"?
President Olusegun Obasanjo canceled a trip to Zimbabwe and called an emergency Cabinet meeting. Afterward his spokesman, Tunji Oseni, issued a statement saying "no effort will be spared" to end Nigeria's "culture of violence in politics." Later Monday, the president ordered army troops into the streets of Osun state amid fears of violence, and state television announced a nighttime curfew in the state. Nigeria, Africa's most populous nation with 120 million people, is regularly rocked by violent feuding along political, ethnic and religious lines. Bose Ehindero, a relative of Ige who answered the phone at the official's residence Monday morning, said Ige and his wife, Tinuke Ige, were in their bedroom when the assailants burst in on them. He was shot despite pleas from his wife, an appeals court judge, to spare his life, Ehindero added. A team of police officers assigned to protect Ige were away from their posts eating dinner at the time, Ehindero said. The Lagos daily newspaper ThisDay speculated the killing was linked to a violent political feud between the state's governor and his deputy. Last week, an Osun state legislator, Odunayo Olagbaju, was bludgeoned to death outside his home in the city of Ife, provoking riots in the city. Five people were reported killed. Olagbaju had been a supporter of Osun Deputy Gov. Iyiola Omisore. A few days ago, Ige reportedly escaped a mob attack in Ife in which his hat was knocked off and his glasses broken. Ige had apparently backed Osun State Gov. Bamidele Adebisi Akande, ThisDay said. Ige was the founder of one of Nigeria's three registered political parties, the Alliance for Democracy. Just weeks ago, he was chosen to serve in 2002 on the prestigious U.N. international law commission. Obasanjo quickly recruited Ige into his government following 1999 elections that ended military rule, even though the two had campaigned for opposing parties. Like Obasanjo, Ige had spent time in prison under the junta and was a Yoruba, the predominant ethnic group in Nigeria's southwest. Ige led the World Council of Churches' anti-racism campaign in the early 1970s and later became governor of Oyo State during Nigeria's previous period of civilian rule, 1979-83. He was generally well-liked by many of his fellow Yorubas but distrusted by some northerners for the years he spent campaigning against the northern-dominated military. As justice minister, he also drew criticism from some northern Muslims for statements against moves by several states to implement Islamic law. Ige also gained the wrath of state governments in the Niger Delta, where he was seen as responsible for a ruling that restricts the states' earnings from offshore oil drilling.
Re: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On 23 Dec 2001, at 21:39, Black Unicorn wrote: > > While this might not directly impact the person running or > > developing the system it certain serves to discourage users > > of the system after a single allegation has been made. > > Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I suspect. > > You are as usual full of shit. I would say "overcautious", at worst. Lawyers tend to be. Entrepreneurs tend to be overoptimistic and risk-taking. It seems to balance out over time. I think there are more "entrepreneurs" of various legal and illegal forms in prison than lawyers. But, few innovations come from lawyers, either. > If this was so, ever banking haven, e-gold, and the rest, > would be out of business. Banking havens have folded in the past 30 years. No one provides anonymous banking to joe random off the street anymore. They may provide certain levels of privacy, but with various levels of protection against drugs, money laundering, etc. Others may allow things to slip through the cracks due to incompetence, but will eventually shut. A monolithic ecash system doesn't have the flexibility to allow individual actors to change or fold without affecting the system; a decentralized one does. If you assume a monolithic system, a single investigation could have some risk of shutting it down. An ecash system is about providing a higher level of anonymity than even the richest people in the world can have today, to every random user connecting from home, in the normal course of operations. And continuing to transact business regardless of what happens. This is completely impossible for any kind of monolithic entity to do. > You have remarkable confidence not only in the effectiveness > of laws to deter those things they directly prohibit, but > even those things that are sort of vaguely like those things > they directly prohibit "Mr Happy Fun court will not be > amused" Prohibitions on anonymous financial transactions are not just some minor law; they're not even a major law. This is *the* regulatory issue of the past 50-100 years. (along with the supremacy of the federal state). It is bigger than the war on drugs, bigger than the war on terrorism, etc. An anonymous electronic cash system, in aggregate, is a direct threat to the nation state. That's why otherwise intelligent people have spent nearly 20 years building systems which have this as a pre-requisite, wasting millions of dollars in futile efforts to develop/deploy, etc. I still think the most likely result is that a system will be distributed and not deployed, or deployed but not widely used, and thus mainly ignored, but not for regulatory reasons, simply for trust, software engineering, market, etc. reasons. But I'd like to give it a shot. -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE][EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.+44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F
"Your either with choate or your with the Terrorists"
What is a slacker? The question is beginning to sound as inane as the answers that have sprung out of the media. It cannot be true that a slacker is in transition between college and the real world, since this demands an acceptance of the concept "real world." Linklater's film seems to suggest that a slacker is in a transition, not between school and employment, but between the dominant conception of reality and his or her own construction of reality. Linklater has superbly crafted this film to fit the style of the community and characters he tries to portray. The camera never remains focused on one character or event, choosing instead to wander among the nearly 100 characters involved. We see a small slice of the character's life, never to return to him or her again. This can be frustrating to some audiences, but "Slacker" never falls prey to being gimmicky for the sake of the gimmick. The camera's choice is apparently random, but not without significance. In the opening scene, Linklater's character delivers a monologue about a book that he "must have written" while dreaming on a bus. He asserts that in any situation where we make a choice, each possible path we could have taken becomes a reality. Besides the implication that he could have, should have or did stay at the bus station (where, as he says, he probably would have met a girl), Linklater also indicates that the medium of film is the perpetuator of a dominant ideology. "We're kind of trapped in this one reality, restriction type of thing," he says, a clue that the film will concentrate on the importance of reality and film to the future of our generation. From Linklater, the camera begins its journey around Austin. We overhear interesting conversations on a wide range of topics, from the Smurfs to George Bush, light-blue collar families and, of course, JFK assassination theories. The discussions are not only amusing, but often poignant, and show a group of people expressing themselves within a reality all their own. Somewhere in the middle of the film, all of the inaction becomes a bit depressing. We have seen a young man run over his mother, then passively submit to the police; we have seen a guy who can't even go outside and relax because it involves preparation; and in the funniest and saddest scene, we have seen a woman who has a sure-fire way of making money: selling Madonna's pap smear (although someone stoled [sic] one of the pubic hairs). One may want to scream, "What is the point here?" This sentiment is shared by the older generation in the film. Wandering by a woman caught for shoplifting, an old man quips to his daughter, "I'm always glad to see any young person doing something." However, this man is not a member of the dominant, work-hard, capitalist society. He is, instead, an anarchist, with his own subcultural philosophy. Of the man who killed President William McKinley, he says the 100 more like him could have changed the world. This older idealist wishes that young people would act to change the society that they refuse to join, much like he did in fighting the Spanish Civil War. Unfortunately, as his daughter points out, the old man was in Spain in 1955, a bit too late to have been involved in the struggle. Does this mean Linklater is attacking the "left" as crazy ideologues? This seems implausible considering his general reverence toward these people. The fact that the old man didn't fight is one particular reality, but not the reality that he accepts. The Civil War is the embodiment of his beliefs, and he feels he was there, trying to make a difference. Linklater sympathizes with him, as well as the other characters. They have not yet found a framework for destructive, subversive or any other type of action. So the characters have not found "framework." If Linklater suggests no possibility of a means of expression, then the concept of a framework is merely an excuse for inaction. But Linklater portrays video and film as such a framework, a hope for the future. In one instance, a guy with a television strapped to his back talks about the "psychic power" of the televised image. He does not believe in video as an automatic cure-all, but sees its possibilities: "We need it to work for us, not us for it." Indeed, the last group we see experiments with the image in an attempt to make it work for them. Somewhere in the editing of their camerawork lies Linklater's hopes. No review of "Slacker" can do more than scratch the surface. It is a work of depth, one of the most forward-looking, subversive, hopeful films ever produced. Well-acted, well-photographed and carefully crafted, "Slacker" proves that $23,000 and dedication can still result in important cinema. by adam joyce brooklyn, ny 2001-12-24 Excerpt from www.spleen.org
Re: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable coward.RIP.
>>Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe > you to be, given your writtings, please correct me) Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously<< So you've seen http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html and http://world.std.com/~mhuben/ddfr.html ? You must have read "Cypherpunks, high-tech libertarians, and various others mistakenly think technology will eliminate the need for government (if not outright eliminate government.) at http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html How long would todays freedom's and free markets survive the destruction of the state? http://www.spunk.org/library/otherpol/critique/sp001277.txt >>Something I _don't_ favor is wasting time responding to weird rants like the ones from "mattd." The expression "get back on your medications" is sometimes overused on the Net, but in this case it clearly applies. Is that what they mean by "Ad Hominem attack"? We call it "playing the man,not the ball",down under. >>This "mattd" person oscillates from fawning about "crypto anarchy"<< When anarchy is not the may/friedman crock, anarcho-capitalism. >>to foaming that people like me should be hanged.<< Not foaming,just offering up my humble proffr1 dollar for the rope.No wonder tammy hates APster and anarchy! "The price of liberty is eternal vigilantism." >>All written in an illiterate, pseudo-dyslexic, run-on sentence, crude imitation of John Young.<< Ill take that as a compliment from a pompous windsock like you taffy. >>I have yet to see a single idea come out of "mattd."<< So this is your first response to one of my posts? >>There are more interesting fish to fry. --Tim May, Corralitos, California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. << So tammies the shroedingers cat of the libertarian movement.CALCer to the rotten core he should fry in hell.
RE: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 10:04 PM > To: Ryan Lackey; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Black Unicorn > Subject: Re: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash > developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again). > > > -- > On 23 Dec 2001, at 21:39, Black Unicorn wrote: > > While this might not directly impact the person running or > > developing the system it certain serves to discourage users > > of the system after a single allegation has been made. > > Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I suspect. > > You are as usual full of shit. > > If this was so, ever banking haven, e-gold, and the rest, > would be out of business. > > You have remarkable confidence not only in the effectiveness > of laws to deter those things they directly prohibit, but > even those things that are sort of vaguely like those things > they directly prohibit "Mr Happy Fun court will not be > amused" > > Every business continually commits numerous major illegal > acts, and every day must do innumerable acts that would > doubtless fail to amuse Mr Happy fun court. So much is > illegal that legislation has little effect even on those > things the legislation directly prohibits. So what's your point?
Shiver me timbers.
Today's Birthdays English physicist and mathematician Sir Isaac Newton, considered one of the most important scientists of all time, was born on this day in 1642. Newtons Sleep by Ursula K Le Guin On a future Earth of environmental devastation and political instability, rapidly mutating viruses have caused billions of deaths, and the future of the human race is in jeopardy. When a select group of pragmatists take residence in an orbiting habitat, the occupants begin to see visions of the unfortunates they left behind, and some fear that the environmental deprivation has bridged the gap between reality and hallucination. 1991 1907 -- Activist journalist I. F. "Izzy" Stone, US journalist, lives to tell it like it is, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Washington editor of "The Nation" magazine & founder of the legendary "I. F. Stone's Weekly", Stone specialized in publishing information ignored by the corporate media 1913 -- "The Italian Hall Disaster." In Calumet, Michigan, striking copper miners & their children are having a Christmas celebration; strike-breakers outside bar the doors then raise a false fire alarm. In the ensuing stampede, 73 (roughly half are children) are crushed or suffocated. http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndex.html http://members.xoom.com/elstongunn/1913.html 1914 -- Wilderness advocate John Muir dies, Los Angeles, California. 2001-dec 30.Tim May savaged to death by own security dogs. Buried at sea.no flowers.
Re: Time to unsubscribe...
On Tue, Dec 25, at 05:56AM, Dr. Evil wrote: | Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling | from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and ravage@... The few bits of wonderfully | interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to | motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters. If someone knows | of a filtered version of this list, please let me know. procmail is your friend.
RE: Illusional delusions
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of AARG! Anonymous > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:40 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Illusional delusions > > > The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined > by the state, from the equation. Yes yes, here we go. A cutesy technical argument about why this that or another doesn't fit the strict definition of this that or the other offense. I'm sure the prosecutor, the judge and the jury will be eager to listen. > Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties > that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to > convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to > rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money > launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper > cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is > not a solution. Therefore murder, if not witnessed, never happened. If a body falls in the forest...? Please. > This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop > copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof > watermarks. The fact that party X commits a crime without being witnessed does not eliminate the crime. It merely makes prosecution a bit harder. > Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in > any form or shape. Good luck finding a currency that is not "state-money." The state does a wonderful thing. It provides legitimacy to investment vehicles. It does so through imposing (or eliminating) liability for transactions failures of various sorts. If you don't recognize the importance of that (or propose a private solution that does a similar thing) then you aren't worth listening to. Remember that multiple-issuer currencies have been tried before in just about any economy you choose to name. There is a reason none exist anymore. (Bad money displaces good, or any other of 15 college or early graduate level economics courses will enlighten you if you choose to pursue them with anything like interest). > Thinking aloud ... this may be silly: > > Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange, > maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by > defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties > should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own > currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating > new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly > connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it > was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone > whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business > for reputation building. Again, hardly new. Not new? Name 5 prominent reputation brokers. Reputation services? Reputation clearing agents? What manner of reputation do they measure? Trustworthiness? Identity? Creditworthiness? One? None? All? (I can only think of two, neither of which approach the level of sophistication you propose here). > This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain > much from it anyway. Oh boy. > Going through a series of intermediaries to buy > some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the > state's sight. You want work too hard to stay out of the state's sight. > In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for > centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business > will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad. Tell me a bit more about how wonderful the world would be without economies of scale. > So, tell me, is this silly ? Uh... sure. (Incidentally, it's "Illusory Delusions." "Ilusional" isn't a word. It's also "Imbalance" not "Disbalance"). I'm prone to typo occasionally too, but try not to make words up unless your in uncharted waters, eh?
anarchocrapitalism@Timmaysucks.com
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/anarchist817/anarcho_capitalism.html Anarcho-Capitalism is a name given to a philosophy that some call "Free-Market Anarchism," or sometimes the less apt "Libertarianism." (Not all those who call themselves Libertarians are Anarcho-Capitalists. Kind of confusing, huh?) Grammatically speaking, Anarcho-Capitalism is an oxymoron, which in my opinion makes it unsound as a philosophy. Anarchists are opposed to the economic policies of Capitalism, and anyone claiming to be an 'Anarcho-Capitalist' simply does not grasp the true meaning of Anarchism. Usually calling themselves Libertarians, Anarcho-Capitalists are simply people who have no interest in changing the fundamental nature of society. People like tim may and david friedman. Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold
What to back an ecash issue with, structure
I've read quite a bit about free banking. The idea of using a purely-technical basis for a currency, and then allowing it to float, is interesting -- as is linking to an external accounting system, and only issuing based on that. I think the greatest threat to an electronic cash system is 1) not being deployed 2) not being adopted once deployed. So I'd be inclined to go for something simple vs. complex, in backing it -- a warehouse full of cash, or gold, or whatever else, controlled by a legal entity which sets a redemption policy. Trying to explain free banking to someone becomes complex. Without a market, automated price presentment in converted form, etc. users would be annoyed/confused by a free-floating currency. While I suppose the mint could issue 1m tokens by default, and an issuer could sell them at a rate on the open market for USD 1/token, such that the market value does not fluctuate, then you lose the mint being able to publish treasury and float figures. I think placing those two figures into the mint and signed by keys only the mint has would do more to reassure users of stable currency value than a potentially-shadowy issuer. Issuer sets aside $x and tells the mint, mint issues x tokens, tokens trade near $1 each, and if the issuer wants to expand the issue, the issuer either devalues the currency, or adds more money. This way the issuer could retain a constant unit price while starting with, say $10k of cash for 10k units, selling those, then issuing more. There are a lot of interesting experiments, but most of them are only interesting once a basic level of infrastructure is deployed. First simple mints, then a market, then more sophisticated, derivative, etc. issues, then security features. A purely-technical "high-power money" experiment would be fun, and might be a better basis for issues than "mint in control of bank accounts externally" or "external issuer banking issue", but it's more complex to deploy. -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE][EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.+44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F
MotherTucker.
Tucker often claimed that an anarchist could not be a communist! In State Socialism and Anarchism he stated that anarchism was "an ideal utterly inconsistent with that of those Communists who falsely call themselves Anarchists while at the same time advocating a regime of Archism fully as despotic as that of the State Socialists themselves." ["State Socialism and Anarchism", Instead of a Book, pp. 15-16] While modern social anarchists follow Kropotkin in not denying Proudhon or Tucker as anarchists, we do deny the anarchist title to supporters of capitalism. Why? Simply because anarchism as a political movement (as opposed to a dictionary definition) has always been anti-capitalist and against capitalist wage slavery, exploitation and oppression. In other words, anarchism (in all its forms) has always been associated with specific political and economic ideas. Both Tucker and Kropotkin defined their anarchism as an opposition to both state and capitalism. To quote Tucker on the subject: "Liberty insists. . . [on] the abolition of the State and the abolition of usury; on no more government of man by man, and no more exploitation of man by man." [cited in Native American Anarchism - A Study of Left-Wing American Individualism by Eunice Schuster, p. 140] Kropotkin defined anarchism as "the no-government system of socialism." [Kropotkin's Revolutionary Pamphlets, p. 46] Malatesta argued that "when [people] sought to overthrow both State and property -- then it was anarchy was born" and, like Tucker, aimed for "the complete destruction of the domination and exploitation of man by man." [Life and Ideas, p. 19, pp. 22-28] Indeed every leading anarchist theorist defined anarchism as opposition to government and exploitation. Thus Brain Morris' excellent summary: "Another criticism of anarchism is that it has a narrow view of politics: that it sees the state as the fount of all evil, ignoring other aspects of social and economic life. This is a misrepresentation of anarchism. It partly derives from the way anarchism has been defined [in dictionaries, for example], and partly because Marxist historians have tried to exclude anarchism from the broader socialist movement. But when one examines the writings of classical anarchists. . . as well as the character of anarchist movements. . . it is clearly evident that it has never had this limited vision. It has always challenged all forms of authority and exploitation, and has been equally critical of capitalism and religion as it has been of the state." ["Anthropology and Anarchism," Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed no. 45, p. 40]
Fatal Exception
"The term anarchy comes from the Greek, and essentially means 'no ruler.' Anarchists are people who reject all forms of government or coercive authority, all forms of hierarchy and domination. They are therefore opposed to what the Mexican anarchist Flores Magon called the 'sombre trinity' -- state, capital and the church. Anarchists are thus opposed to both capitalism and to the state, as well as to all forms of religious authority. But anarchists also seek to establish or bring about by varying means, a condition of anarchy, that is, a decentralised society without coercive institutions, a society organised through a federation of voluntary associations. Contemporary 'right-wing' libertarians . . . who are often described as 'anarchocapitalists' and who fervently defend capitalism, are not in any real sense anarchists." [Op. Cit., p. 38] Rather than call themselves by a name which reflects their origins in liberalism (and not anarchism), the "anarcho"-capitalists have instead seen fit to try and appropriate the name of anarchism and, in order to do so, ignore key aspects of anarchist theory in the process. Little wonder, then, they try and prove their anarchist credentials via dictionary definitions rather than from the anarchist movement itself Here at http://flag.blackened.net/intanark/faq/append11.html#app5
