I Love Tim May

[Anonymous]

Tim - I've been off the list for a long time but return to find that I actually agree 
with a bunch of your posts.  What the fuck happened?  Aimee you have done wonders for 
love.

Feds here put my bits into the vacuumed up collection of the day for later style and 
word adjacency analysis and detect the level of threat and stress in my writing, 
correlate it with other postings to determine the level of sympathy with listcrime 
freedom mongers and tag it with the unique ID of my processor put it in a vault for 
seven years.

Meanwhile overhead drone aircraft videotape my town, then downtown they perform 
automated object trajectory analysis which spits out the outliers of Bayesian 
determiners of normalcy, flagging them as possible threatening activities while 
identifying the gait, odors, and timesequence behaviors of individuals who thought or 
did something not sanctioned by the Corporate Masters.

So my Big Brethren, hey - I'm thinking of just how one might devastate a regional 
economy with just a minor disruption in its transportation capabilities.  I don't wear 
Nike Shoes. So sue me. Arrest me. Fuck me.

Some day some time Tim May may have writ:

"There seems to be a feeding frenzy of these "you're going to get in 
trouble!" posts.

Several weeks ago, it was the "spoliation" thread, with Aimee assuring 
us that using certain technologies must be illegal. She could say why, 
in real terms (real as opposed to "maybe in the future"), but she 
implied we would be on thin ice. Oddly, Black Unicorn added a blizzard 
of cites he claimed showed that using some technologies, even long in 
advance of a any charges being filed or orders issued, would be 
"taunting Happy Fun Court." Apparently the First, Fourth, Fifth, and 
Sixth Amendments are made moot when Mr. Happy Fun Court decides he is ..."

SIG: NetSlaves (Hi-Tech Journalism)

[Jim Choate]

http://www.netslaves.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=005&action=display&num=998801687
-- 

 --


natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato
summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks

Matsuo Basho

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

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Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[amp]

The really funny thing about this is that if you search through for archives 
I'd be willing to bet you'd get a hundred hits or so for almost exactly the 
quote below.

> "Tim May is a scary guy with a lot of guns who says he's going to defend
> his rights. 

I've been on and off the list at various times (mostly off because the 
volume of this list eventually buries me in electrons) since about '95 or '96.
Every once in a while this kind of statement is made. Hasn't happened yet.

I've actually enjoying lurking for the past few days as it's been 
entertaining reading. 

FWIW, I'm with Tim on Aimee. She's a fed or closely enough related that she 
might as well be.



-- 
TANSTAAFL,

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.zeugma.nu/

Never be afraid to try something new. 
Remember, amateurs built the ark. 
Professionals built the Titanic.

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Re: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[Dr. Evil]

Sandy, Aimee, Unicorn, Dillinger, Choate, Nomen Nescio, what about me?
Am I not worthy of this rant?

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
> The cypherpunk world replaces coercion with cooperation.  It
> provides the shield of anonymity against those who would offer
> violence and aggression.  As we move into the information age,
> control of information is control of the individual.  Thus, privacy,
> control of information about one's self, is freedom.
> 
> And as Eric Hughes points out, cypherpunk technologies are
> ultimately based on social cooperation.  By definition, anonymity is
> meaningless unless it is attained as part of a group.  "People must
> come together and deploy these systems for the common good."

Yes!  The pacificism which underlies most cypherpunk ideas has always
been attractive.  It's cheaper to be hard to track than to have to
defend yourself.  (Maybe this is why so many animals use camouflage.)

> "Any message posted to cypherpunks via an anonymous remailer gets an
> automatic +2 on hit points, for it practices what it preaches."
> -- Anonymous

Sing it, brother, sing it!

Re: Cypherpunks <> Crypto-Anarchist

[Bill Stewart]

 Some Zen Poetry
 Choat's Noh Crypto Anarchist
 An empty message

At 11:12 PM 08/29/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>  --
> 
>
> natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato
> summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks
>
> Matsuo Basho
>
>The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
>Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
>-~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> 

Re: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums

[Paul Pomes]

At 11:25 PM 8/29/01 -0700, Bill Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>A group of researchers at Notre Dame figured out how to use the
>TCP Checksum calculations to get other computers to do number-crunching for them.
>
>"Below, we present an implementation of a parasitic computer
>using the checksum function.  In order for this to occur,
>one needs to design a special message that coerces a target server
>into performing the desired computation."
>
>The article has the amount of great mathematical depth you'd expect from CNN :-)
>But it does say that the paper will be published in "Nature" this week.

And the message in my mailbox immediately after the above was Nature's ToC
including:

Parasitic computing
A-L BARABASI, V W FREEH, H JEONG & J B BROCKMAN
http://www.nature.com/nlink/v412/n6850/abs/412894a0_fs.html

Cheers,
Paul Pomes

RE: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[measl]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Is Tom Clancy going to spend much time in stir for machine gunning the US 
> Congress at the end of Debt of Honor?

Possibly: see the campaign to put away John Ross, author of "Unintended
Consequences".

www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39696d3b3c7b.htm 


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Bell Testimony Day 2

[John Young]

Day 2:

  http://cryptome.org/jdb040901-2.htm

Completion of direct questioning by Robert Leen,
Jim's many-times-fired attorney, and cross-examination 
by Robb London.

Two cpunks are mentioned by Jim by name, with glowingly
admirable death kisses. 

But he also kisses Leen (says Leen threatened to kill him 
two days before), London, Tanner, cpunk Jeff, another J 
and wife B, CIA's Bend OR Phantom, a phantom Phantom, 
The Super-Dirty Narc, Innocent Victim Agent No. 2, the 
Laura Raider of his mother's fireplace ashes, a 
police-asslick Reporter, and ... what can be said of Jim 
that he can't yodel better on the stand.

Tanner admonished London for leaving the podium
during questioning to get docs. "Stop it."

London apologized for asking Jim too many
questions without waiting for answers. "I'll stop
it."

Leen asked to be relieved as defense attorney, 
Tanner: "Denied. 

Leen asked for a psycho exam of Jim, Tanner denied.

Jim tried to invoke his 5th Amendment rights,
Tanner denied: "answer the question."

Jim asked for legal representation, crying IANAL,
Tanner denied: "answer."

Jim admitted he stole mail and opened it, and burned
it in his mother's fireplace. Jim admitted he sent a
fax across state lines, and went across state lines
in pursuit of homebases of official pukes.

London affirmed all Jim's prison phone calls were
monitored, that cpuke Jeff monitors cpunks -- maybe
it was Jim who said the latter when he testified that
that posting to cpunks was how he notified the opukes 
what he intended.

Etc.

Lawyer Lessig raps new copyright laws - Tech News - CNET.com

[Jim Choate]

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7004860.html
-- 

 --


natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato
summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks

Matsuo Basho

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums

[Greg Broiles]

At 07:00 AM 8/30/2001 -0500, Dean, James wrote:

>Don't fall for this.  After registering at www.nature.com (supplying
>personal details), you find you'll have to pay to see the article.

See , including a .PDF of the article at 
.


--
Greg Broiles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids

RE: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[jamesd]

--
Reese
> > You [Aimee Farr]are entirely too smug and happy, at the 
> > thought of these various mechanisms useful for preserving 
> > privacy and anonymity going the way of the dodo.

Aimee Farr
> That is not my attitude at all, Reese.

It is your attitude.  You keep telling us privacy is illegal. 
Most highly profitable uses of privacy are illegal somewhere, but 
they are never illegal everywhere.  If you had your way we would 
all be obeying all US law, including those seldom or never 
enforced, or only enforced against black people and political 
subversives, all french laws, all Iranian laws, etc.

Concerning your example of the IRA -- I recollect that for a long
time the US government allowed IRA fundraising, and use of the US
banking system for transfers to the IRA. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 LnyQwbLjSabEa0Lh4Qp314B6OXVNHjgvV/V5Hg5j
 4ZtCxKVTkBd+heS8NdJoqew13kDVoqFasM3tTo/Qb

Re: Borders UK and privacy

[Declan McCullagh]

It makes sense that human debris would be a portion of the waste removed, 
but compared to food items, dead rats, discarded trash and newspapers, it 
strikes me that it would not be an especially large portion. --Declan


At 09:47 PM 8/29/01 -0400, Ryan Arneson wrote:
>Someone tell the Travel Channel in that case, they did a story on the
>London underground, including the Underground (big U) and mentioned this
>very thing. It was called "Underground London" and unfortunately, the last
>day they list as an air date is 8/25.
>
>Seems they even have a name for the people who have to clean the human
>debris up...fluffers, if I recall correctly. Brings to mind another
>occupation that I won't detail here.

Re: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[David Honig]

At 08:56 PM 8/29/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>"Blacknet is an interesting idea, but only if it used by Steele and his 
>CIA friends. Can you assure us it will not be used except for good uses, 
>such as those by the CIA and DEA?"
>

"We develop the tecnology.  The policy and how you implement them
is not my province."  ---Jonathon Philips, 
mgr DARPA Human ID at a Distance Program
Tech Review Sept 01 p 63  "Big Brother Logs On"

.
Additional case studies are needed, however, to determine which traits of
chemical and biological terrorists might help identify them because
charisma, paranoia, and grandiosity are alo found to varying degreees
among, for example, leaders of political parties, large corporations, and
academic depts. --John T Finn, _Science_ v 289 1 sept 2000

Re: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[Batman Svejk]

[demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text]
>Next, we started seeing sissies like Ray Dillinger, er, "Bear," some 
>sort of polyamoristic wuss-ninny from northern California, urging us to 
>change the subject, to talk about the nurturing and children-friendly 
>aspects of crypto. Fuck that. This is not some list for leftie greens 
>and wuss-ninnies.

Not all of the leftie greens object to discussions on this list,
but if this (your?) list is not for greens, maybe those with different
political views than your own should go away?  Unlikely, given the
political importance of crypto and privacy, sorry.

What is your intent with Ms. Farr? (If she really is a Ms. - "No
one knows you're a dog on the Internet.")  Out the fed?  Or, to
get her off the list?

Maybe you'd like a law that makes it illegal to troll.  Heh.

-Svejk


.

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RE: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[jamesd]

--
On 27 Aug 2001, at 16:00, Aimee Farr wrote:
> Your idea does seem to offer promise as a vehicle for treason,
> espionage, trade secrets, malicious mischief, piracy, bribery
> of public officials, concealment of assets, transmission of
> wagering information, murder for hire, threatening or
> retaliating against Federal officials, a transactional 
> environment for nuclear and biologic weapons, narcotic and arms 
> traffickingsweet spots. *shakes head*

Sounds good to me.  I am sure it will sound pretty good to
President Bush if the primary targets are in Sudan or Borneo,
rather than the target being Bush.

And it will probably sound pretty good to some guy in Sudan if
the primary target is Bush.


--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 cP6zSfn46m6Tcs5LHfHssOmejDBq3DjqNkpEEtbY
 43ILLkFOVdn0istQ5ydYLv94EZa/2p9G2WsMUao2i

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[jamesd]

--
On 26 Aug 2001, at 10:46, Tim May wrote:
> Anyway, it is not easy to create a public company, a public
> nexus of attack, and then deploy systems which target that
> high-value sweet spot. The real bankers and the regulators
> won't allow such things into the official banking system. (Why
> do people think the banking system will embrace "digital bearer
> bonds" having untraceability features when true bearer bonds
> were eliminated years ago?)

I think the safest convenient path to development is to develop
untraceable cash in the US with restrictions on any large
transfers.  Then, once the technology is working, set up a
complete new company in a jurisdiction such as Nauru or Antigua
which allows bearer instruments of large value. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 IfH9fDFYT0gsZzF8W1c6SeYfXhieAuGmfGuJbr3e
 4HmU02MVm3Sjt7wzdrSI7p7LHwBjt/+HG3dwDeuYD

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[Tim May]

On Thursday, August 30, 2001, at 06:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
>> Is Tom Clancy going to spend much time in stir for machine gunning the 
>> US
>> Congress at the end of Debt of Honor?
>
> Possibly: see the campaign to put away John Ross, author of "Unintended
> Consequences".
>
>   www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39696d3b3c7b.htm
>


Thanks for the cite!

It shows how far down the path to destroying even the First Article of 
the Bill of Rights we have gone. Several cases of BATF harassment, even 
an attempt to recruit John Ross' ex-wife to help put him away.

Thanks again.

P.S. I see you have copied Ray Dillinger in the cc: field (which I have 
blanked in this reply, as is my custom). Be advised that Ray Dillinger 
has covered his ears and doesn't want to hear about this kind of icky 
stuff.

--Tim May

Ultimate Recruitment Solutions...

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Qualified Leads as well! That's called: Self-Liquidating-Lead-Generation! 
So in other words you gonna make money in the Front End as well... 
..just like the Pro's in MLM do! Earn WHILE recruiting... 

 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=MORE_INFO









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Re: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[Tim May]

On Thursday, August 30, 2001, at 08:50 AM, Batman Svejk wrote:

>> Next, we started seeing sissies like Ray Dillinger, er, "Bear," some
>> sort of polyamoristic wuss-ninny from northern California, urging us to
>> change the subject, to talk about the nurturing and children-friendly
>> aspects of crypto. Fuck that. This is not some list for leftie greens
>> and wuss-ninnies.
>
> Not all of the leftie greens object to discussions on this list,
> but if this (your?) list is not for greens, maybe those with different
> political views than your own should go away?

If you think you should go away because I insult lefty greens, then, 
yes, you should go away.


>
> Maybe you'd like a law that makes it illegal to troll.  Heh.
>
>

Get a clue.


--Tim May

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[jamesd]

--
On 27 Aug 2001, at 21:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> "Freedom fighters in communist-controlled regimes."  How much
> money do they have?  More importantly, how much are they
> willing and able to spend on anonymity/privacy/black-market
> technologies?  These guys aren't rolling in dough.

Freedom fighters are generally funded by expatriates resident in
sympathetic foreign countries.   These expatriates need C3
equipment to ensure that their money is not being embezzled or
misused.  By and large they are not using it, and should be.

> "Jews hiding their assets in Swiss bank accounts."  Financial
> privacy is in fact potentially big business, but let's face it,
> most of the customers today are not Jews fearing confiscation
> by anti-semitic governments. That's not in the cards.  Most of
> the money will be tainted

I find this unlikely.  The powerful confiscate from the
vulnerable because they want the money, not because the
vulnerable are sinners deserving to have their money confiscated.

It is always loudly proclaimed that the money is tainted.  When
the Swiss banks were receiving the money from jews it was
supposedly tainted because it came from jews.  Later it was
supposedly tainted because it came from nazis.  Any money is
tainted when someone else wants it. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 N9AHhvoqlS9Irm/IDeEE6I1kYHYUm+CQGmeXPy82
 44sVXA0FdW2m4055Ed20ew+iE84uYRYERsDpl8PjJ

RE: Agents kick crypto ass....was The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[jamesd]

--
On 27 Aug 2001, at 23:22, Aimee Farr wrote:
> Considering the incredibly bad timing of this discussion in 
> light of world events, I don't see how you could call ME a 
> provocateur. My jibe was good-natured. You keep posting the 
> equivalent of classified ads. I know who wants this shit now, 
> and it's not "little bad men."

The main world events that I have noticed is that President Bush 
has deballed the world gun control treaty, in part because it 
would hinder aid to revolutionary movements that have interests 
in common with the US, and that Bush is making unkind noises 
about the world treaty against tax havens and financial secrecy, 
in part because it would give the EEC too much control over 
international money flows.

The state has always been repressive -- and different states have 
always disagreed strongly over what needs to be repressed.

In 1376 the Holy Roman Church declared itself supreme in all 
matters of thought, and declared that any thinking not first 
approved and authorized in advanced by the church, and conducted 
in proper church channels, was heresy and/or witchcraft 
punishable by burning at the stake.  However, under the original 
treaty between Pope and holy roman empire, any such burnings 
required both the Pope's judges and the King's goons
(oversimplification, but that is essense of it).  Since Pope and
King were usually trying to kill each other, freedom survived,
though not easily. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 ulrWnHbYmYLr1ALq5yaAlnuwr5SRSzH8gTSgtzmj
 4dYLsf/2UwXTPBn4+ZQRxpjVyJJWsQWAYxEuZEWiN

News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship"

[Tim May]

This report says the U.S. Gov't. has plans to make "SafeWeb," the Web 
proxy company it helped fund through the CIA, available to Chinese 
citizens who want to bypass their government's censorship.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010830/wr/tech_china_internet_report_dc_1.
html

(I can already hear Aimee moaning about this anarchic undermining of the 
official Chinese government...until she realizes it has been blessed by 
a "legitimate" organ of the government.)

So, what happens when Iran decides to finance systems in the U.S. to 
bypass U.S.G. censorship (e.g., of talk by freedom fighters)? Or when 
Denmark finances a system to bypass crackdowns on teen erotica in the 
U.S.? And so on.

Here's a brief excerpt:

Thursday August 30 3:23 AM ET

U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship -NYT

NEW YORK (Reuters) - United States government agencies hope to finance 
an American-based computer network designed to thwart attempts by the 
Chinese government to censor the World Wide Web for users in China, the 
New York Times reported in its online edition on Thursday.

According to the report, the agency is in advanced discussions with 
Safeweb, a small company based in Emeryville, California, which has 
received financing from the venture capital arm of the Central 
Intelligence Agency (news - web sites), In-Q-Tel. The discussions were 
confirmed by parties on both sides, the newspaper said.

Safeweb currently runs its own worldwide network of about 100 privacy 
servers -- computers that help disguise what Web sites a user is seeking 
to view -- which are popular with users in China, according to the 
report. The newspaper said the privacy servers have been a continuing 
target for the Chinese government, which has blocked most of them in 
recent weeks.

Re: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship"

[Tim May]

On Thursday, August 30, 2001, at 12:16 PM, Adam Shostack wrote:

> As far as your opinions of our business, well, I'm really uninterested
> in getting into a pissing match with you.  The reality is that
> customers and investors give us money tp produce privacy tools, and
> they, not you, are the ones I need to keep happy.
>

I was being quite calm was not "getting into a pissing match."

If you react to comments about ZKS by saying people are pissing on you, 
I'd call you overly sensitive.

And I certainly recall you yourself commenting on products from RSA and 
many other companies.


--Tim May

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[mmotyka]

Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
>On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 05:28:24PM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>> For Tim: 
>> Why are you attempting to provoke public discussion about things 
>> that could get people jailed or worse for discussing them?  It's 
>> interesting to see you post your "sweet spot" message and then call 
>> someone *else* an agent provocateur.
>
>I suspect Bear has good intentions and may even honestly believe this,
>but it is nevertheless misleading. 
>
>Talking about the political implications of technologies -- and taking
>no actions! -- is protected by the full force of the First Amendment.
>
>Johnson got in trouble for allegedly making direct threats of physical
>violence. Bell is in jail for most of the next decade because he
>crossed state lines and showing up at homes of current or former
>federal agents.
>
>It is true that the Feds are monitoring cypherpunks closely, and it is
>also probably true that without the stalking charges, they may have
>found other charges to levy against Bell. It is also true that if you
>embrace AP-type concepts, they may pay closer attention to you. But
>even given the tattered First Amendment, there is still a difference
>between speech and action.
>
>-Declan
>
Bear may not be as far off the mark as you think. Remember back when the
hot news of the day was militia groups how advocating the violent
overthrow of the government and playing soldier in the woods could
constitute intent? Can that twisted reasoning be applied to advocating
the use of code to obsolete the government and then actually creating
code? Should the political speech and coding action be separated? Is
participating in both risky? I consider code to be publishing and speech
but look at some of the recent GRUsa activity that addresses that issue.

Get ready for "to code is to act." Whoops, it's here. Just title your
application "Espionage Communications Suite with Government Overthrow
Features" and package the speech and the act up nice and neat for the
GRU. 

This can't really be the case, can it?

Mike

This little gizmo is not new but I like it and it's only $30 at an AT&T
Wireless store. It looks like it would be a nice companion ( assuming
one could make a very tiny uP-based adapter ) for an iPaq. I find those
folding kybs to be ugly.

http://www.ericsson.com/infocenter/news/The_Chatboard.html

Re: Borders UK and privacy

[Eugene Leitl]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> How about a tailored virus that modifies your DNA on a rotating basis
> in non significant fashion so that you're constantly "new".  I wonder

Unless you go for full sequencing, you would have to jumble restriction
sites.

> if that would be theoretically possible?  Fun times.

Theoretically, yes. It would kill you in no time, though. Also,
quantitative transfection in an adult is a lot to ask for. Killer vector
indeed.

-- Eugen* Leitl http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204/";>leitl
__
ICBMTO  : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

Re: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship"

[mmotyka]

"Faustine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
>Adam wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 10:02:54AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>| Alas, the marketing of such "dissident-grade untraceability" is 
>| difficult. Partly because anything that is dissident-grade is also 
>| pedophile-grade, money launderer-grade, freedom fighter-grade, 
>| terrorist-grade, etc.
>
>>I think a larger problem is that we don't know how to build it. 
>
>And as long as you have companies like ZeroKnowledge who are 
>willing/gullible/greedy/just plain fucking stupid enough to sell their 
>betas to the NSA, you never will. 
>
>~Faustine.
>
Holy faulty logic Batman! This has to be one of the more doofy things
I've heard. It's right up there with the EMI Grounding Strap thread.

What're you going to do, sell a product in CompUSA with instructions to
the cashiers that the NSA is not allowed to buy it? If the NSA is
willing to pay for some software that's great. They've got as much right
to buy it as anyone else. As long as they obey the law! and don't
reverse engineer it, let them share in financing further development.

I would find it more relevant to know which commercial product designs
have been influenced by which non-commercial agencies.

oy g'vay ( sp? )
Mike

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[Tim May]

On Thursday, August 30, 2001, at 12:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Bear may not be as far off the mark as you think. Remember back when the
> hot news of the day was militia groups how advocating the violent
> overthrow of the government and playing soldier in the woods could
> constitute intent?

Before going further, let's examine your "could constitute intent" point.

Do you know of any prosecutions, successful or not, of groups who 
"played soldier in the woods"? Assuming, of course, that the 
prosecutions were not for weapons law violations, trespassing, hunting 
out of season, possession of illegal explosives, noise violations, etc.

If you know of any such cases, I would like to hear about them.

Note, by the way, that the Aryan Nation(s) routinely does as you say, 
i.e., they practice in the woods, but the only thing that they have been 
charged (as individuals or as an organization) were connected with 
actual crimes (the murder of radio talk show host Alan Berg in Denver, a 
couple of bank robberies) or political thoughtcrimes involving supposed 
harassment (a woman who claims she was "chased and terrorized" by AN 
thugs after driving past their compound several times.

Do you know of any actual cases where this confluence to "create intent" 
(not even clear what that means in this context, though) was claimed?


> Can that twisted reasoning be applied to advocating
> the use of code to obsolete the government and then actually creating
> code? Should the political speech and coding action be separated? Is
> participating in both risky? I consider code to be publishing and speech
> but look at some of the recent GRUsa activity that addresses that issue.

Assuming your hypo, there is little protection in the "Alice talks, Bob 
codes" solution, if Alice and Bob associate. For a conspiracy charge, 
the fact that some talk and some build things is not important.

>
> Get ready for "to code is to act." Whoops, it's here. Just title your
> application "Espionage Communications Suite with Government Overthrow
> Features" and package the speech and the act up nice and neat for the
> GRU.
>
> This can't really be the case, can it?

No, it can't.


--Tim May

Re: Borders UK and privacy

[Jim Choate]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> How about a tailored virus that modifies your DNA on a rotating basis in
> non significant fashion so that you're constantly "new".  I wonder if
> that would be theoretically possible?  Fun times.

You would have to do it to the 'junk' and 'long term unused' portions
(ie introns), I doubt it would work with exons. There's also the issue of
timing. Using a virus it would be hard to hit all the cells at one time.


 --


natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato
summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks

Matsuo Basho

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Anonymity News of the Weird

[Peter Wayner]

 From News Of the Weird:


...the Alcoholics Anonymous chapter in Milwaukee still does not know 
who the man was who collapsed and died during a meeting on May 23 
(because those attending meetings usually do so anonymously). [St. 
Louis Post-Dispatch-AP, 6-3-01]

Re: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[Anonymous]

> And I expect you are just another of the anonymous or pseudonymous
> ranters, maybe the same one recently using "Nomen Nescio" or "A
> Melon."

I know for sure that there's more than one.

"Any message posted to cypherpunks via an anonymous remailer gets an
automatic +2 on hit points, for it practices what it preaches."
-- Anonymous

Re: Anonymous Posting

[Anonymous]

Tim May wrote:
> I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or
> even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to
> kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the
> millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist
> Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine.

This was the remark I had in mind:

Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001:
> (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope
> and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are
> rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this...

I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement.  My
apologies.

> Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next
> several years.

Cuts both ways, of course.  If the past is any guide, mostly the
innocent would die.

> And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and
> Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim
> YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor
> potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man,
> allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their
> farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which
> might be all they really want, oy vey!

I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel,
but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of
land was chosen.  Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism.  The area
is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that
it's important to other people as well.

Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as
crazies, especially the ones from the U.S.

Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in
Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is
a good guide to the cypherpunks.

The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like
defining a "cypherpunk".  It is clear that many Zionists are not
religious.

> And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of
> Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended
> Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building
> any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for
> example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or
> legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics
> have bombed abortion clinics.

Agreed.  Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion
is murder.  Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied
in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as
incitement.

What is insidious about charging people with organizational
involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system.  The
organization itself doesn't stand trial.  At the same time the members
are not charged with any specfic crime.

Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the
defendant stands a good chance of conviction.  It is very close to
simple political repression.

> The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and
> Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the
> modern age.  And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of
> them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic
> homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins
> of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or
> otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago.

But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here?
I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any
time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent.
Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare.  Some Jewish
people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?",
but they do not seem to be genetically driven.

I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by
"embracing the future".  This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps
I'm not getting your point.

The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not
seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which
one could describe as "embracing the future".  Many Christians,
Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this
department.  For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without
a fuss.  Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is
taught.

I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to
find a way to not be murdered any more.  After over 1000 years of
abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem
unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was
unsafe to live among Europeans.

My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs
aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea
and they'd have a country where they would have full politi

No Subject

[vze2q34d]

My apologies to everyone who received PayPay e-mail from my server. It was not my 
intention to dupe or 
mislead anyone concerning their program. PayPal is an excellent service and I regret 
ever becoming involved 
in something which they consider illegal.

For anyone who sent or tried to send money through their system I will send the e-book 
Internet Cash 
machines valued at $24.95 for the same $5.00 gift plus the addresses of several other 
programs which are 
making money with free signups.

Send fowarded or returned e-mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] along with your $5.00 gift and I 
will include 
interNetACTIVE valued at $29.00.
 
Last but not least Try this program receive $5.00 cash for signup & $5.00 cash for 
referrals.


Enjoy Your Surf
Ron Johnson

Re: Anonymous Posting

[Frog2]

Tim May wrote:
> I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or
> even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to
> kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the
> millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist
> Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine.

This was the remark I had in mind:

Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001:
> (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope
> and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are
> rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this...

I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement.  My
apologies.

> Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next
> several years.

Cuts both ways, of course.  If the past is any guide, mostly the
innocent would die.

> And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and
> Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim
> YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor
> potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man,
> allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their
> farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which
> might be all they really want, oy vey!

I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel,
but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of
land was chosen.  Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism.  The area
is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that
it's important to other people as well.

Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as
crazies, especially the ones from the U.S.

Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in
Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is
a good guide to the cypherpunks.

The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like
defining a "cypherpunk".  It is clear that many Zionists are not
religious.

> And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of
> Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended
> Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building
> any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for
> example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or
> legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics
> have bombed abortion clinics.

Agreed.  Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion
is murder.  Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied
in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as
incitement.

What is insidious about charging people with organizational
involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system.  The
organization itself doesn't stand trial.  At the same time the members
are not charged with any specfic crime.

Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the
defendant stands a good chance of conviction.  It is very close to
simple political repression.

> The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and
> Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the
> modern age.  And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of
> them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic
> homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins
> of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or
> otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago.

But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here?
I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any
time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent.
Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare.  Some Jewish
people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?",
but they do not seem to be genetically driven.

I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by
"embracing the future".  This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps
I'm not getting your point.

The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not
seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which
one could describe as "embracing the future".  Many Christians,
Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this
department.  For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without
a fuss.  Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is
taught.

I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to
find a way to not be murdered any more.  After over 1000 years of
abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem
unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was
unsafe to live among Europeans.

My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs
aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea
and they'd have a country where they would have full politi

Re: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums

[Paul Pomes]

At 07:00 AM 8/30/01 -0500, "Dean, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Don't fall for this.  After registering at www.nature.com (supplying
>personal details), you find you'll have to pay to see the article. 

What a surprise that the leading science journal in the world charges for
the latest content. I'm shocked, simply shocked, that market forces apply
to publishing and that I must pay for my subscription.

It's almost always possible to find free copies of a paper somewhere on the
net for those willing to do the search. I prefer subscribing to Nature's
value-added journal instead.

/pbp

RE: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship"

[Phillip H. Zakas]

> Faustine wrote:
> I wouldn't trust either of them with anything significant. 

More importantly, the claims that safeweb/triangle boy actually works
may be misleading to the people who will rely on its claims of securely
circumventing government censorship in china.  The entire in/out bound
traffic for the system can be effectively blocked or monitored.  Plus
did it strike anyone as odd that the 'triangle boy' software, to be used
when access to safeweb.com is blocked, is downloaded from the
safeweb.com website?  I've not seen that software anywhere else and
frankly downloading/having that triangleboy software in itself is a dead
giveaway of suspicious activity isn't it?  I'm not as worried about US
citizens using the stuff in the usa, just concerned for chinese
dissidents using it in china.
phillip

Re: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[Dr. Evil]

> You've left no impression on me. And I expect you are just another of 
> the anonymous or pseudonymous ranters, maybe the same one recently using 
> "Nomen Nescio" or "A Melon."

I wonder what Senor Escobar thinks of all this.  Eh Senor?  We haven't
heard your street-wise opinions from the great beyond in a while.

As for me an Nomen Nescio, and the mysterious A Melon, you found us
out!  We're a gang of one or more people who do or do not know
eachother or others.

> Dismissible, in other words.

At least I know where I stand!

Perhaps this whole thing is just one person talking to himself, with
Tim listening in!

Re: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship"

[Meyer Wolfsheim]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Faustine wrote:

> And as long as you have companies like ZeroKnowledge who are
> willing/gullible/greedy/just plain fucking stupid enough to sell their
> betas to the NSA, you never will.

Okay, that clinches it. You're a moron.

Why *shouldn't* ZKS, or any other company, sell their products to the NSA?
Do you honestly think that ZKS could prevent the NSA from obtaining a copy
of a commercially available product?

"Welcome to Faustine's Privacy Shoppe, your one-stop shop for privacy
protection software. Now, please submit to a background check to determine
that you are not, and have never been, an employee of the US Government,
the DoD, or have family members employed by the same. Please agree, under
penalty of dealth, not to share this software with the NSA or any other
Big Scary Agency who might break our software. Here at Faustine's Privacy
Shoppe, we believe security through obscurity is the only way!"

Next you're going to argue that PGP is now more secure than it ever was,
because the source code is closed.

Please. Educate yourself.

- -MW-
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: pgpenvelope 2.10.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/

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Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[measl]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:



> But
> even given the tattered First Amendment, there is still a difference
> between speech and action.

Complete and utter bullshit.

> -Declan


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

pennies for IRS (or non-dumb JB)

[Secret Squirrel]

http://macontelegraph.com/content/macon/2001/08/27/local/ETHREDGE0827.htm

By Rob Peecher Telegraph Staff Writer

EATONTON --- Jesse Ethredge doesn't care much for President Bush, and he
doesn't hesitate to say so.

In fact, if you're following the 57-year-old Eatonton man down the road,
you'll quickly learn just exactly what he thinks of Bush.

"Don't U blame me. Thief --- Liar --- Two Faced Murderer Geo W. Bush. Hell
with Bush and all damn Republicans."

Those are the words printed, in plastic stick-on letters, on the back of
the camper on Ethredge's truck, which is also adorned with a cartoon child
urinating on the word "Republicans."

Those also are the words that earned Ethredge a visit from the U.S. Secret
Service last week.

"They came Tuesday, wanting to ask me what did I mean by that there,"
Ethredge said, pointing to the slogan on his truck. "They asked me a bunch
of questions, like if he was to come into my driveway, what would I tell
him. I said I'd tell him to get out as fast as he come in it. ... They
wanted to see if I was a danger to him."

Bush has been closer to Ethredge than one might expect. During the
campaign, Bush made at least two visits to Reynolds Plantation on Lake
Oconee in Greene County.

Ethredge said he believes the visit from the Secret Service was initiated
by a man who had come to his house the week before. Ethredge, who lives on
Lake Sinclair, has a car with a for sale sign on it parked in his front
yard. A few days before the Secret Service came to see him, Ethredge said
a man stopped at the end of his driveway.

"I come out to see what he wanted; I thought he wanted to buy the car. But
then he started talking about the sign and asked me if I knew I could get
in trouble with the Secret Service for that. I told him if that's all he
was here for, he could leave the same way he came here," Ethredge said.
"If I see him again, I'll give him a mouthful."

Putnam County sheriff's detective Lee Wilson confirmed it was a call from
someone who had seen Ethredge's truck that brought the Secret Service to
Eatonton.

"We got a call from somebody who had seen his truck and noticed a sign
that (the caller said) says 'murder George Bush,' " Wilson said. "I called
the Secret Service, and they sent an agent down, and we interviewed
(Ethredge) as a matter of policy to see what his mind-set is and if he
poses any threat to the president."

Wilson said Ethredge cooperated during the interview.

"Although he didn't have a lot of use for (Bush), he didn't have any
intentions of causing him physical harm," Wilson said. "As far as (the
sheriff's office) is concerned, it's a closed matter. I don't want to
speak for the Secret Service, but based on my conversation with them,
they'll document having contact with (Ethredge)."

It was a similar anti-Bush (though a different Bush) slogan on the same
camper shell that more than a decade ago got Ethredge much attention from
the media and from officials at Robins Air Force Base, where he has worked
as a civilian employee for 34 years.

That sign --- "Read my lips hell with Geo. Bush" --- got Ethredge a ticket
charging him with "provoking speech on a truck" when he drove it onto the
base April 5, 1990.

The ticket was dismissed since there is no statute against "provoking
language on a truck," but in October 1991, Ethredge received a letter from
Col. Robert Hail, then-deputy base commander at Robins. The letter
instructed Ethredge not to come onto the base with "bumper stickers or
other similar paraphernalia which would embarrass or disparage the
Commander in Chief."

Ethredge contacted the American Civil Liberties Union, and a First
Amendment lawsuit naming Hail as the defendant ensued. A U.S. district
judge ruled against Ethredge, saying the base did have the power to limit
bumper sticker content. Ethredge appealed to the 11th Circuit Court of
Appeals, and the 11th Circuit initially ruled the case moot since Bush
lost the election to Clinton.

So, Ethredge says, he added a line about Bill Clinton "more or less to
keep the case going." While he has no love for Republicans --- the first
sign Ethredge had on a vehicle was about Ronald Reagan --- Ethredge said
he didn't really have anything against Clinton. But he nonetheless added a
slogan to his truck that read, "Hell with Clinton and Russian aid."

The 11th Circuit then ruled against Ethredge, and the lawsuit ended there,
said Gerry Weber, the ACLU attorney handling the case.

"We stopped at the 11th Circuit level," Weber said. "Just within the
context of a military base, people's free speech rights are as restricted
or potentially more restricted than inmates in a jail."

Weber said he was surprised to hear Ethredge had become, if only briefly,
the subject of a Secret Service probe. After hearing the content of the
new slogan, Weber said, "That doesn't sound like it warrants a Secret
Service investigation."

Weber also said a state statute outlawing obscene or lewd messages on
bumper stickers was struc

Re: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship"

[Faustine]

Mike wrote:
"Faustine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
>Adam wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 10:02:54AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>| Alas, the marketing of such "dissident-grade untraceability" is 
>| difficult. Partly because anything that is dissident-grade is also 
>| pedophile-grade, money launderer-grade, freedom fighter-grade, 
>| terrorist-grade, etc.
>>I think a larger problem is that we don't know how to build it. 
>
>And as long as you have companies like ZeroKnowledge who are 
>willing/gullible/greedy/just plain fucking stupid enough to sell their 
>betas to the NSA, you never will. 
>
>Holy faulty logic Batman! This has to be one of the more doofy things
>I've heard. It's right up there with the EMI Grounding Strap thread.
>What're you going to do, sell a product in CompUSA with instructions to
>the cashiers that the NSA is not allowed to buy it? If the NSA is
>willing to pay for some software that's great. They've got as much right
>to buy it as anyone else. 

True, of course they do. "Technology is morally neutral," sure, whatever. 
Yay capitalism. I still think handing over your security product beta on a 
silver platter in exchange for a nice fat government contract is a stupid, 
stupid idea.


>As long as they obey the law! and don't
>reverse engineer it, let them share in financing further development.

Do you really think that anyone would have the slightest qualm about 
reverse engineering a product like this when "national security interests" 
are at stake?


>I would find it more relevant to know which commercial product designs
>have been influenced by which non-commercial agencies.

Either way, the prospects for "dissident-grade untraceability" are fairly 
bleak. 

>oy g'vay ( sp? )

close enough. ;)


~Faustine.

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[Declan McCullagh]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 12:42:24PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Bear may not be as far off the mark as you think. Remember back when the
> hot news of the day was militia groups how advocating the violent
> overthrow of the government and playing soldier in the woods could
> constitute intent? Can that twisted reasoning be applied to advocating
> the use of code to obsolete the government and then actually creating
> code? Should the political speech and coding action be separated? Is
> participating in both risky? I consider code to be publishing and speech
> but look at some of the recent GRUsa activity that addresses that issue.

Can you get put in jail for writing code? Sure. Just ask Dmitry Sklyarov.
Or read the old crypto regs. Or write a bot that posts child porn and
start it going. Lots of ways to run afoul of the law -- and that's in
the U.S., where we may even be a bit more liberal about such things,
and where some circuits even believe source code is free speech.

But it does not logically follow that just because you code something,
such as an anonymous mix or similar system, that you have broken the
law. In fact, you probably haven't.

-Declan

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[mmotyka]

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 12:42:24PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Bear may not be as far off the mark as you think. Remember back when the
> > hot news of the day was militia groups how advocating the violent
> > overthrow of the government and playing soldier in the woods could
> > constitute intent? Can that twisted reasoning be applied to advocating
> > the use of code to obsolete the government and then actually creating
> > code? Should the political speech and coding action be separated? Is
> > participating in both risky? I consider code to be publishing and speech
> > but look at some of the recent GRUsa activity that addresses that issue.
> 
> Can you get put in jail for writing code? Sure. Just ask Dmitry Sklyarov.
> Or read the old crypto regs. Or write a bot that posts child porn and
> start it going. Lots of ways to run afoul of the law -- and that's in
> the U.S., where we may even be a bit more liberal about such things,
> and where some circuits even believe source code is free speech.
> 
> But it does not logically follow that just because you code something,
> such as an anonymous mix or similar system, that you have broken the
> law. In fact, you probably haven't.
> 
> -Declan
>
Agreed, but the parallel is noticeable.

Mike

RE: CDR: Re: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list

[Batman Svejk]

>>> aspects of crypto. Fuck that. This is not some list for leftie greens
>>> and wuss-ninnies.
>>
>> Not all of the leftie greens object to discussions on this list,
>> but if this (your?) list is not for greens, maybe those with different
>> political views than your own should go away?
>
>If you think you should go away because I insult lefty greens, then, 
>yes, you should go away.

I do not think so, but thanks for the clarification.

>> Maybe you'd like a law that makes it illegal to troll.  Heh.
>>
>>
>
>Get a clue.

  The clew, without which it was perilous to enter the
  vast and intricate maze of crypto politics,
  was in his hands. (Apologies to T.B. Macaulay)

-Svejk


.

Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums

[Bill Stewart]

http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/08/29/stealth.computing/index.html
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/08/29/199205&mode=thread

A group of researchers at Notre Dame figured out how to use the
TCP Checksum calculations to get other computers to do number-crunching for 
them.

"Below, we present an implementation of a parasitic computer
using the checksum function.  In order for this to occur,
one needs to design a special message that coerces a target server
into performing the desired computation."

The article has the amount of great mathematical depth you'd expect from 
CNN :-)
But it does say that the paper will be published in "Nature" this week.

It's a really cool hack, though not especially efficient for real work.

Of course, the Slashdot discussion follows typical structure -
there's an interesting technical suggestion (ICMP checksums may be usable
and are probably more efficient than TCP), some trolls and flamers,
the obligatory "Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of those!" comment,
and some speculation about the potential legalities and other uses for it.

secure IRC/messaging successor

[Eugene Leitl]

Gale http://www.gale.org/ seems a well thought out infrastructure. Is the
consensus "this is it", or have I missed any alternatives?

TIA,

-- Eugen* Leitl http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204/";>leitl
__
ICBMTO  : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

The Tim May Question

[A. Melon]

In another message Tim wrote:
>On Sunday, August 26, 2001, at 12:11 AM, Reese wrote:
>> It's easy to stay on topic, or on a topic, it's another thing to be
>> appropriate.  Tim is good, but easy improvement is within reach, as
>> you sort of noted.
>
> Fuck off. I'll take constructive criticism from people who are
> better writers than I, or at least in the same ballpark.
>
> But not from those who have left no lasting impression.

I'm not sure if Reese was replying to one of my messages, but this
obsession less productive posters have with Tim is peculiar.

Looked at as an engineering problem, one tends to look at the
underperforming components.  Let's say you are running a steel mill,
and the average uptime of your blast furnaces is 10%.  One is 95%.
Nobody would spend their time trying to get the last 5% out of the
best furnace.  Anybody would look at it and figure out how to get the
other furnaces performing.

So, some other force is at work.  One candidate is the usual tedious
resentment that some people feel towards people they see as smarter,
more knowledgeable, and more creative than themselves.  This sort of
behavior is deeply repugnant to me, much more so than occasional
political incorrectness.

Another candidate is that certain people see Tim as somehow their
leader (or something), therefore making him accountable in some way.
Given that Tim is not anybody's leader and doesn't seem to want to be,
this is less repugnant than it is ridiculous.

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==2
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===
 

No Subject

[Anonymous]

When I saw the "general response to bombz" post with the below mentioned book, I asked 
my significant other to please order a copy for me, because she gets a very nice 
reduction on prices of books she buys as an employed of Borders Bookstore chain.  

She refused to enter this request into their computer system to place an order, 
because she claims that the store monitors orders for some categories of special 
orders, and reports these orders to the police as a custom of policy!

Buyers of bookstores beware.

--
Eissler, M. "A Handbook on Modern Explosives: A Practical Treatise, with
Chapters on Explosives in Practical Applications" London: Crosby Lockwood
and Son, 1897. 2nd, Enlarged, fair, illus., appendices, index.

OPT: Sarah Flannery on Cayley-Purser: An Investigation of a New Algorithm vs. the RSA

[Jim Choate]

http://www.cayley-purser.ie/#The_Cayley_Purser_Algorithm
-- 

 --


natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato
summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks

Matsuo Basho

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[measl]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I think the safest convenient path to development is to develop
> untraceable cash in the US with restrictions on any large
> transfers.

Absolutely unacceptable: (1) Define "large"; (2) Define a (sane) rationale
to justify this type of intrusion - tip: "The USG already does this" is
neither sane nor rational.

>  James A. Donald

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Exporing Military encryption to China

[Malcolm Idaho]

Customs halts export to China, charges 2 
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES



 Two men, one a naturalized U.S. citizen and the other a permanent
resident alien, were arrested yesterday by the U.S. Customs Service on
charges of attempting to export military encryption technology to China. Top
Stories
€ Bush to invest in defense
€ 12 Democrats do not regret role in tax cut
€ Military seeks means to save force structure
€ Construction set for N. Korea nuclear plant
€ Schools gird for fights over Indian names
€ Firetrucks dispatched to wrong locations

 Eugene You Tsai Hsu of Blue Springs, Mo., and David Tzu Wvi Yang of
Temple City, Calif., were taken into custody by undercover Customs Service
agents following a four-month investigation by the agency's Baltimore field
office.
 Mr. Hsu, who became a U.S. citizen in 1999, and Mr. Yang, a Taiwan
native who is a resident alien, were accused in an affidavit of attempting
to export to China encryption devices used to safeguard classified
communications, in violation of the Arms Export Act.
 A third man, identified as Charlson Ho, also was named in the
conspiracy and is believed to be in Singapore. Mr. Hsu was arrested at his
Missouri home. Mr. Yang was taken into custody at his office in Compton,
Calif.
 "The technology that these individuals were attempting to export to
China is among the most sensitive items on the U.S. munitions list," said
Agent Allan Doby, who heads the Baltimore office. "The sale of these units
is so tightly controlled that the National Security Agency must approve it."
 According to an affidavit by Customs Service Agent Mary Hamman, the
agency was notified May 2 by the Defense Security Service that Mr. Hsu was
attempting to purchase KIV-7HS encryption devices and user manuals for
export to China. The devices, authorized for government use only, are
designed to secure classified communications.
 Ms. Hamman, in the affidavit, said Mr. Hsu sought to buy the equipment
from Mykotronx Inc., a private company located in Columbia, Md. Officials at
Mykotronx called the Customs Service office in Baltimore, which told the
firm to direct Mr. Hsu to an "intermediary representative."
 That representative, an undercover Customs agent, later engaged in what
the affidavit said was a series of telephone conversations between May 2 and
Aug. 18 with Mr. Hsu, Mr. Yang and Mr. Ho, which were tape-recorded. The
telephone conversations showed that the men were working for a Singapore
firm, Wei Soon Loong Private Ltd., that wanted to buy the encryption
devices.
 During the conversations, according to the affidavit, Mr. Hsu confirmed
that the end user of the encryption devices was located in China. The
affidavit does not elaborate.
 Ms. Hamman wrote that Mr. Hsu, after being told that the purchase of
the equipment would be illegal and that permits to send the devices to China
could not be obtained, said he wanted to proceed anyway, suggesting to the
undercover agent that "everyone will just keep their mouths shut."
 The affidavit said Mr. Hsu then suggested that the agent talk directly
with his buyer in Singapore, who would receive the equipment and forward it
to China. The agent them spoke with Mr. Ho, who also confirmed that the
equipment was bound for China.
 In one conversation, the affidavit said, Mr. Ho told the undercover
agent the Chinese buyers "don't want too many people to know" about the
deal. The document said Mr. Hsu later suggested that instead of a check or
wire transfer as payment for the encryption equipment, cash would be better
"so there's no trail."
 In a conversation with Mr. Yang, the affidavit said, the undercover
agent was told by Mr. Yang that he had agreed to "move the merchandise" for
Mr. Hsu and Mr. Ho, and that he "fully understands the whole situation."
 "I've been doing this business for more than 20 years, I know how to
handle these problems," Mr. Yang is quoted as saying.
 The affidavit said Mr. Yang told the agent the encryption equipment
would be shipped from Los Angeles through Taiwan to Singapore, where it
would then be forwarded "to the end user in China."
 Mr. Hsu and Mr. Yang were not available yesterday. Wei Soon Loong, the
Singapore company, did not return calls for comment.
 The maximum sentence for smuggling sensitive technology is 10 years in
prison and a $1 million fine for each violation.
 Customs spokesman Dean Boyd said people or companies engaged in the
export of items included on the U.S. Munitions List to all foreign
countries, except Canada, must be registered with the State Department. In
addition, he said, persons or companies must obtain a license from the
department for each item on the list before it can be exported.

Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot

[jamesd]

--
On 28 Aug 2001, at 7:13, Jim Choate wrote:
> What makes you think that new regime who used your tool to take 
> over won't then shoot you and take 'your profits'. By 
> participating you may in fact be signing your own death 
> warrant.

All the liberty that there is in the world today results from the 
Dutch revolt, the Glorious Revolution, and the American 
Revolution.  No oppressive regimes, with the exception of the 
Chinese, were produced by revolution.

Every successful revolution has been a major step forward for 
human liberty (the Russian communist revolution was not a 
revolution, but merely a coup by a little conspiracy.  Same for 
the Sandinista revolution).  Even in revolutions that failed,
like the french, were the old system was swiftly restored by
Napoleon, the power of the old regime was fatally undermined.

The outcome of the recent revolutions in Somalia and Ethiopia may 
be piss poor by Western standards, but compared to the rest of 
Africa they are pretty good, and compared to the previous 
regimes, they are wonderful. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 bstOJvcE7yZ9wE8/TgMBfXDE6jExhrBCsGAb/NnK
 4Y74xyXZqu/wy4YGqo28RkMUFEWDhUUMk7L9BBPRe