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Re: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
"James A. Donald" wrote: > > -- > At 02:57 PM 2/26/2001 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > Finally, sites supported by micropayments are going to have to > > figure out something about web spiders. If "scooter" can't spend > > several million dollars a month on these places, they're not going > > to get into the altavista database, for example. So if you want the > > site to be in a search engine at all, you're going to have to let > > the search engine's robot cruise the site for free. Wanna bet it > > would be about twenty seconds before somebody released a "Pretend to > > be a web spider and browse pay sites for FREE!" utility? > > Not a problem. Typically a micropayment site will have index and summary > pages that are free, and these free pages will contain lots of pay > links. You will not want the spider to traverse the pay links. Or you make the pay for pages be error pages in the body with keywords of the contents. That way, say your bot hits an article about squirrel mating habbits, in the body, you hide the keywords of that article (in comments, or in a 0 point font, or in black on black text, or in the header, etc.), so that bot can add them to it's corpus and get you the results on a search, but the HTML displays a sign up page. It won't get you results on specific phrases, but the keywords will get you the results you need. Pretty easy to do with CGI's. So when someone goes to google.com and gets results on that pay-for-access page, even if they hit the "cached page" page, they'll see the pay-for-access to this article, if they want to get it, they pay their $0.005 or whatever micropayment, and it's done. This assumes that the micropayment per content view model will work. Having worked at a big 800lbs gorrilla pay-for web site in the past, I can tell you it's not likely to work. 99% of the audience will not pay for the article - they'll just go elsewhere for similar info. That 1% that is conducting commercial research will pay even as much as $500 per page if the data is complete. As an example, once a year, the said co put out a list of info about other companies. The same list was published on paper for under $5 about a month later. We had quite a few purchases for this list, some were two people from the same company purchasing the list. Of course anyone with a scanner and good OCR software would have it for $5, but it goes to show you micropayments aren't the way to go. Macro payments are. -- --Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net
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"Information wants to be free"
At 11:29 AM -0800 2/27/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote: > >>At 2:57 PM -0800 2/26/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >>> >>>If they can fix micropayments so that I can authorize my web >>>agent to spend up to $5 a month and not pester me about it, >>>they might have something I'd use. >> >>Most people will skip any sites that cost money...unless, maybe, it's >>a porn site that they specifically want. >> >>There are very, very few pay sites which are surviving, let alone thriving. > >Right. All the "content-for-pay" artists now have to compete >against all the unpaid amateurs who are webpublishing because >webpublishing is easy and nearly free. Or because "information wants to be free" (*) and _someone_ will make the songs or images or whatever available for absolutely nothing. Good examples of this are Napster, of course, and the alt.binaries.erotica.* Usenet newsgroups. (* I never particularly liked the "information wants to be free" slogan, for various reasons. See the archives for discussions.) > >Unless they can provide content that is absolutely above and >beyond what the amateurs can do technologically and artistically, >they are going to discover that there is no paying market for >their stuff. Probably not even then. Unless the Net is heavily censored and encryption is banned, there are just too many "degrees of freedom" for the above-mentioned "information wants to be free" point to be invalidated. The cases of Mojo, Gnutella, Freenet, and free versions of Napster make this point. (Though the automated thievery, er, "sharing," of Napster made it trivial to install for even 6th graders, and thus led to the tens of millions of users, it is likely that future systems will still be used by many even if not so easy to "click and steal.") --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
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Confusion about Free Speech
At 10:41 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote: >I see your point...prior restraint sucks, but I disagree with you that >speech cannot violate rights. What about slander or libel? I believe >that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made the >subject of untrue statements against my character. But that's the limit. >I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech. > >But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code >is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code. I am >pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I >just said makes sense. This is well-trod ground, even for this list. Citing libel and slander in the context of "free speech" is a slippery slope. For one thing, neither libel nor slander has anything to do with First Amendment issues, which are limitations on censorship, prior restraint, etc. (Even the infamous "Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater" is more confusing than illuminating, and certainly has nothing to do with censorship or prior restraint.) Another thing is that this recent discussion about how Microsoft is "suppressing free speech" is just nonsensical. The list seems to have some new members lately, or is getting cross posts from other lists. It's important that folks know what the First Amendment says (apologies to non-U.S. folks) and how the term "free speech" is so often misused. As for your point about "I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made the subject of untrue statements about my character," boy, have you dialed a wrong number! For two reasons. First, it is not the role of government to protect your _reputation_. This puts others in the business of determining what "truth" is. Second, "sunlight is the best disinfectant." The cure for defamatory speech is _more_ speech. (And libertarians and other thoughtful persons recognize that incorrect characterizations are their own punishment. This is the concept of "negative reputations." Again, this is well-trod ground: the real debate about "right not to be defamed" turns out to translate to a debate about "unequal powers," as when a newspaper defames a peon. Defamation of you by me is never considered important enough to pass laws over.) Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or "markets for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact your protection racket and have them contact mine for some bargaining. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Re: "Information wants to be free"
On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote: > >Right. All the "content-for-pay" artists now have to compete > >against all the unpaid amateurs who are webpublishing because > >webpublishing is easy and nearly free. > > Or because "information wants to be free" (*) and _someone_ will make > the songs or images or whatever available for absolutely nothing. > Good examples of this are Napster, of course, and the > alt.binaries.erotica.* Usenet newsgroups. "Information *actually* wants to be tied up and spanked." [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen| to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
At 11:23 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote: > > It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT >> drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the >> end all). > >Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler" or >"Nazi", it's the end of the thread? ;) Let's not adopt this banal convention on this list. Much bandwidth is wasted by people arguing about invocation of Godwin's Law and inventing their own variants (such as May's Lemma, that more bandwidth is wasted). > >> You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political >> speech and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that >> you're a baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a >> whole other situation. > >Heh. Maybe ridicule wasn't the right word. I can take a joke, ridicule >is ok. I guess a better word would have been "unjustified slander" (OK, >that's two). Satire and ridicule are good things, and are >protected...this is good. > >But now, I am beginning to see what you are saying. We shouldn't blame >*speech* for the result of speech. It's the *result* of said speech that >should be the grounds of wrongness. Makes sense to me. If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you, actually. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Re: Confusion about Free Speech
At 8:32 PM -0800 2/27/01, Tim May wrote: > >Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil >actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice >alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or >"markets for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact >your protection racket and have them contact mine for some >bargaining. A typo. That should be "polycentric law," as in "multiple centers." --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Re: Confusion about Free Speech
> For two reasons. First, it is not the role of government to protect > your _reputation_. This puts others in the business of determining > what "truth" is. Second, "sunlight is the best disinfectant." The > cure for defamatory speech is _more_ speech. Hmmm...good point. I should have thought of that before. On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote: > At 10:41 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote: > >I see your point...prior restraint sucks, but I disagree with you that > >speech cannot violate rights. What about slander or libel? I believe > >that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made the > >subject of untrue statements against my character. But that's the limit. > >I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech. > > > >But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code > >is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code. I am > >pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I > >just said makes sense. > > This is well-trod ground, even for this list. > > Citing libel and slander in the context of "free speech" is a > slippery slope. For one thing, neither libel nor slander has anything > to do with First Amendment issues, which are limitations on > censorship, prior restraint, etc. (Even the infamous "Falsely > shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater" is more confusing than > illuminating, and certainly has nothing to do with censorship or > prior restraint.) > > Another thing is that this recent discussion about how Microsoft is > "suppressing free speech" is just nonsensical. > > The list seems to have some new members lately, or is getting cross > posts from other lists. > > It's important that folks know what the First Amendment says > (apologies to non-U.S. folks) and how the term "free speech" is so > often misused. > > As for your point about "I have the right not to be publicly > ridiculed and to be made the subject of untrue statements about my > character," boy, have you dialed a wrong number! > > For two reasons. First, it is not the role of government to protect > your _reputation_. This puts others in the business of determining > what "truth" is. Second, "sunlight is the best disinfectant." The > cure for defamatory speech is _more_ speech. > > (And libertarians and other thoughtful persons recognize that > incorrect characterizations are their own punishment. This is the > concept of "negative reputations." Again, this is well-trod ground: > the real debate about "right not to be defamed" turns out to > translate to a debate about "unequal powers," as when a newspaper > defames a peon. Defamation of you by me is never considered important > enough to pass laws over.) > > Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil > actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice > alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or "markets > for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact your > protection racket and have them contact mine for some bargaining. > > > --Tim May > -- > Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
> Let's not adopt this banal convention on this list. Much bandwidth is > wasted by people arguing about invocation of Godwin's Law and > inventing their own variants (such as May's Lemma, that more > bandwidth is wasted). Whatever. Lets not be too serious. > If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such > confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you, > actually. Never said I was an expert. On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote: > At 11:23 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote: > > > It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT > >> drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the > >> end all). > > > >Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler" or > >"Nazi", it's the end of the thread? ;) > > Let's not adopt this banal convention on this list. Much bandwidth is > wasted by people arguing about invocation of Godwin's Law and > inventing their own variants (such as May's Lemma, that more > bandwidth is wasted). > > > > > >> You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political > >> speech and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that > >> you're a baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a > >> whole other situation. > > > >Heh. Maybe ridicule wasn't the right word. I can take a joke, ridicule > >is ok. I guess a better word would have been "unjustified slander" (OK, > >that's two). Satire and ridicule are good things, and are > >protected...this is good. > > > >But now, I am beginning to see what you are saying. We shouldn't blame > >*speech* for the result of speech. It's the *result* of said speech that > >should be the grounds of wrongness. Makes sense to me. > > If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such > confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you, > actually. > > --Tim May > > -- > Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM YOUR SPAM MAIL
At 08:41 PM 2/27/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >At 8:32 PM -0800 2/27/01, Tim May wrote: >> >>Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil >>actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice >>alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or >>"markets for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact >>your protection racket and have them contact mine for some >>bargaining. > >A typo. That should be "polycentric law," as in "multiple centers." > > >--Tim May >-- >Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California >Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon >Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go >Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns > > Susan I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain, just so I could eat veggies! <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RE: Confusion about Free Speech - reputation enforcement
Tim May said: > This is well-trod ground, even I already know that you always say this. I don't know that it does any good. I'm not going to touch that wild free speech thread. > >Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil > >actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice > >alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or > >"markets for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact > >your protection racket and have them contact mine for some > >bargaining. > > A typo. That should be "polycentric law," as in "multiple centers." The Maghribi traders, ADR, blinded arbitration, an' all dat: http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/cyphernomicon/chapter16/16.19.html Friedman @ http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Academic/contracts_in_%20cyberspace/contracts_in_c yberspace.htm Now, suddenly free speech and defamation is relevant again, because of it's role in reputation enforcement, at least in ID'd transactions. Nice shot, sir. Now you can say, "This is well-trod ground, even" Bah. ;-) -Aimee [I'm behind on all my email.]
RE: Confusion about Free Speech - polycentric
Jim said: > Also known as 'polycracy' or 'polyocracy'. > > It's also worth knowing the only extant sample was the Third Reich. Makes > it a hard sell for obvious reasons. Polycentric law is older than the law itself. The Muslims and the Christians used to trade using the Maghribi traders. They ran a _private legal system_. Later, we saw the rise of the Law Merchant standards. If you broke the rules, you were out. It runs on reputation capital. Polycentric law is the order of the society. Most of the cypherpunk memes here are going to require the equivalent of the Maghribi traders. Code and other laws of cyberspace (Lessig, et. al.) are pointing out that the Net has developed a society where one person can be subject to many legal systems. A legal system is not just a state-sanctioned court. Now, these two legal systems are competing. The static legal system is trying avidly to address and stamp out it's new competitor. But there will always be a place for the Maghribi (although the traditional role of a lawyer is now very much in question) where the law does not go, or where it is inefficient. Coming from a traditionalist legal culture, I'm probably the worst person to talk about it. My understanding is that this is an old cypherpunk topic. -Aimee
RE: Confusion about Free Speech - polycentric
At 12:32 AM -0600 2/28/01, Aimee Farr wrote: >Jim said: > >> Also known as 'polycracy' or 'polyocracy'. >> >> It's also worth knowing the only extant sample was the Third Reich. Makes >> it a hard sell for obvious reasons. > >Polycentric law is older than the law itself. The Muslims and the Christians >used to trade using the Maghribi traders. They ran a _private legal system_. >Later, we saw the rise of the Law Merchant standards. If you broke the >rules, you were out. It runs on reputation capital. Polycentric law is the >order of the society. Most of the cypherpunk memes here are going to require >the equivalent of the Maghribi traders. > >Code and other laws of cyberspace (Lessig, et. al.) are pointing out that >the Net has developed a society where one person can be subject to many >legal systems. A legal system is not just a state-sanctioned court. Now, >these two legal systems are competing. The static legal system is trying >avidly to address and stamp out it's new competitor. But there will always >be a place for the Maghribi (although the traditional role of a lawyer is >now very much in question) where the law does not go, or where it is >inefficient. > >Coming from a traditionalist legal culture, I'm probably the worst person to >talk about it. My understanding is that this is an old cypherpunk topic. Yes, we used to talk about this kind of stuff a lot. We had a few people very interested in this kind of stuff in the early days. People like Hal Finney, Robin Hanson, Nick Szabo, myself. Alas, most are long since gone. Polycentric law is still with us, of course. One hundred or more nations, law of the seas, the UCC, etc. Anarchy is the norm in most parts of our lives. However, Aimee, your summary here is very good. I'm pleasantly surprised. Debating with Choate is not useful, however. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
