Re: Who to send back/only anarchist

[Marcel Popescu]

X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Tim May" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Just so you know, I believe the moral thing for Elian's father to
> have done was to hire some skilled people--perhaps ex-Spetsnaz--and
> go in to the Lorenzo and Maryslices home and taken Elian. Once Elian
> was safely out of the house, execute all those complicit in his
> kidnapping.

Oh, so now Tim not only is no longer an anarchist, he's not even a
libertarian. Tim has just become a leftist nihilist, advocating violation of
other people's rights. Sad...

> However, our society makes this an untenable option. Government has
> decreed that only they may use force, that only they may rescue
> kidnapped children.
>
> Given us realities, I would then say--were it my child--to government
> the following:

This is bullshit. "Given our realities, the best I can do is to lobby the
government for a larger piece of pie". This is what distinguishes principled
people from the rest: some of us consider *wrong* to advocate violation of
rights, no matter how expedient it is.

> "This uncle and his daughter do not have a right to hold my son. He
> is six years old. He can express opinions about Hot Wheels and hot
> dogs and Disney World, but he does not know a single thing about
> politics.

Which is completely irrelevant. The kid hasn't said "I want to live in
capitalism"; he just said "I want to live here". His reasons are
unimportant.

> Now according to our Romanian One True Believer, anyone who bows to
> the "monopoly on force" de facto system is a communist, is not a true
> believer, etc.

Anybody who advocates violation of people's rights - no matter the "higher
goal" invoked - is a socialist, yes.

> I'm tempted to hire some folks in Bucharest to go and seize Marcel's
> 7-year-old daughter, hold her for a few weeks, ply her with toys and
> candy and similar inducements, and then video tape record her saying
> she really does want to be given asylum in some nice Arabic country.
> Marcel can then remember his words about young children have the
> right to make life-changing choices as his daughter is turned into a
> child concubine in one of the satrapies in the sands.

As I said, violation of people's rights. And you somehow consider this an
argument... [Not to mention lying a small child (if that were possible, see
next ), not to mention lack of reading skills: it's seven MONTHS old.]

Here's hope that this is not the real Tim May, but some government puppet...

Mark

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73728722

Banning Internet Sites & NSA Key News

[Robert Guerra]

--- begin forwarded text

Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:04:32 -0700

 M O J O U R N A L
A week's worth from the MoJo Wire
   and Mother Jones magazine
April 26, 2000
  http://www.motherjones.com/


N E W  O N  T H E  W I R E __

* Speed Limit * - News: A bill banning Internet sites which publish or
even link to drug-making information looks set to sail through Congress --
to the dismay of free-speech advocates.

  http://www.motherjones.com/news_wire/methweb.html

 Forwarded from the UK Cryptography Mailing List

Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:57:58 -0400
From: John Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: MS and Campbell on NSA_KEY in Windows

Duncan Campbell has provided a recent exchange of
informative messages with Scott Culp at Microsoft on the
origin, function and purpose of NSA_KEY in Windows:

http://cryptome.org/nsakey-ms-dc.htm



--- end forwarded text


-- 

Robert Guerra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Fax: +1(303) 484-0302
WWW Page 
PGPKeys  

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[Harmon Seaver]

Voice of the Lamb


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nor yet the end
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As quiet the fold
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  Outside 'tis cold --
we know it well,
   but still here's this,
 that I can tell,
 to much prefer the coyote's howl,
   the raven's cough,
  the screeching owl,
   than all thy kings
   and all thy gold --
 we've all been bought,
  we've all been sold.



©Harmon Seaver

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library SystemVirginia, MN
(218) 741-3840  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us

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Re: Who to send back

[David Honig]

At 02:19 AM 4/27/00 -0400, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>> The difference between bacteria and humans is that some humans
>> think they're different.  Meat is meat.
>
>I'm a Christian. These arguments don't hold water to me. Try Tim.

Well, admitting your irrationality is a good start.  But we're talking
about real things (hunger, war, etc.), things that the world
empirically tests, things for which words don't mean squat.

>> And some of the humans think that, because a few percent has achieved
>> z.p.g. and learned how to turn oil into food during the last century,
>> there is no problem.
>
>Who are they? I hate zpg.

I don't mean any organization --I mean the tendancy of educated people
to have less children, voluntarily, because they see more benefit
than a poor farmer does.


>> Famine, plague, war, or birth control.  Your choice.
>
>Intelligence. Love. Yeah, those who put themselves at the same level with
>bacteria might not know what I'm talking about.

Physics of meat.  Ecology.  Biology.

>> (Best to keep good defenses up against those who don't chose wisely, btw.)
>
>Oh, an elitist... Who decides what is wise and what's not? [Don't say Tim.]

No, an individualist.  *You* get to decide *your* choices.  
And you get to defend your own interests.  Or be eaten. 

>> (That I should have to explain overpopulation to a Romanian is somewhat
>> surreal, but whatever.. MP has been reasonable in the past)
>
>Thanks. I am not aware of any overpopulation problems in Romania. 

Over here, we have heard of overfilled orphanages filled with malnourished
children, largely due to your defunct Leader's attempt to grow more meat,
regardless of the quality of its lives.  Perhaps this is just US propoganda,
perhaps a scheme to sell surplus kids to rich americans and alleviate their
guilt; whatever.  


Our
>population is too small for my wants 

Fortunately *your* wants control pretty much just *you*.. unless
you're in *government*.. 

>- I still can't find someone to paint
>my house properly

Hey, gasoline is up to nearly two bucks a gallon here... ;-)








  

Re: Who to send back (ecotones)

[Jim Burnes]

Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 12:42 PM -0400 4/26/00, Jim Burnes wrote:
> >
> >Starvation and privation in most of Africa is almost a stereotype.
> >
> >Stick with a minimal government and something approaching english common
> >law and we have goods and happiness aplenty.
> 
> There are some interesting issues normally neglected in the
> traditional libertarian analysis. For example, the "ecotone." This is
> a region of 50/50 survival, roughly speaking. A tideline is often an
> ecotone.
> 
> The fact is, in alluvial flood plains like Bangla Desh (formerly East
> Pakistan), people move out onto the flood plains, where land is
> cheaper than elsewhere, and breed as rapidly as they possibly can
> (for various reasons). Every ten or twenty years, a cyclone (=
> hurricane) arrives and half a million die quickly and another few
> million suffer diseases and mold and all the stuff that too much
> water brings. And the capital, Dacca, sinks deeper into poverty.
> 
> Sub-saharan Africa is much the same.
> 
> Capitalism vs. Marxism has little to do with things. The issue is
> that these are regions of extremely high death rates (and hence high
> birth rates, via the generation-recombination equation) and nearly
> permanently "poor" living conditions.

In interesting concept.  While I haven't read any material on ecotones
I'm familiar with the rough concept.  In my mind there appears to be
an intuitive correlation between the 50/50 ecotone and the boundry
between chaos and order in the Mandelbrot set.  It also makes
sense within the certain predator/prey theories that I'm aware
of.

An interesting analysis would be whether or not Weberian societies
chose the temperate zones or the temperate zones made them possible.
You may not be able to determine that.

More interesting points

(1) Hong Kong isn't a swamp, but it is very hot and humid and has
no natural resources.  It may still have the most productive economy
on the planet.

(2) Las Vegas has a burgeoning economy yet it lives right smack
in the middle of a very forbidding environment.  Certainly way
over on the die-off side of the ecotone for humans.

Maybe the ecotone is modified by economic/energy input/output
conditions.  That surviability is heavily modified by economic
feedback loops would seem to be apparent and thus the expansion
of the ecotone.

Too hot/humid -- ship in air conditioners
Too cold -- ship in heaters
Too many bugs -- bring in the pestisides
Too much sewage -- create sewer systems
Too little water -- bring it in from somewhere else
Too little money -- create economic conditions of "least friction" for
   it to expand in (vegas and offshore banking zones would typify this)
Too little energy -- bring in nuclear generating stations
Too little atmosphere -- salt the ice caps with non-reflecting material

Maybe all it takes is changing thermodynamic boudries (in a wide
definition of thermodynamic).


> Those who live in dankness, in frozen wastelands, in fetid swamps, in
> the shadow of sand dunes, in clouds of tsetse flies and
> mosquitos...well, they fertilize the soil.

Thanks, Tim.  Very informative.

Jim Burnes
(living in the dankness of St. Louis currently)

Re: Who to send back (ecotones)

[Tim May]

At 6:11 PM -0400 4/27/00, Jim Burnes wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>>  At 12:42 PM -0400 4/26/00, Jim Burnes wrote:
>>  >
>>  >Starvation and privation in most of Africa is almost a stereotype.
>>  >
>>  >Stick with a minimal government and something approaching english common
>>  >law and we have goods and happiness aplenty.
>>
>>  There are some interesting issues normally neglected in the
>>  traditional libertarian analysis. For example, the "ecotone." This is
>>  a region of 50/50 survival, roughly speaking. A tideline is often an
>>  ecotone.
>>
>>  The fact is, in alluvial flood plains like Bangla Desh (formerly East
>>  Pakistan), people move out onto the flood plains, where land is
>>  cheaper than elsewhere, and breed as rapidly as they possibly can
>>  (for various reasons). Every ten or twenty years, a cyclone (=
>>  hurricane) arrives and half a million die quickly and another few
>>  million suffer diseases and mold and all the stuff that too much
>>  water brings. And the capital, Dacca, sinks deeper into poverty.
>>
>>  Sub-saharan Africa is much the same.
>>
>>  Capitalism vs. Marxism has little to do with things. The issue is
>>  that these are regions of extremely high death rates (and hence high
>>  birth rates, via the generation-recombination equation) and nearly
>>  permanently "poor" living conditions.
>
>In interesting concept.  While I haven't read any material on ecotones
>I'm familiar with the rough concept.  In my mind there appears to be
>an intuitive correlation between the 50/50 ecotone and the boundry
>between chaos and order in the Mandelbrot set.  It also makes
>sense within the certain predator/prey theories that I'm aware
>of.

Yes, these are all related. However, abstract theories about the 
border between chaos and order are more suited to the Santa Fe 
Institute folks (note: I attended the first Artificial Life 
Conference in 1987, one of about 100 very interesting folks). The 
nitty gritty of 50/50 survival odds is much more "in the present."

Vast numbers of the poor basically have little chance of survival. 
Time we get used to it. All of our treasure (wealth) could be poured 
into Chad, Somalia, Bangla Desh, Romania, and other Turd World 
hellholes and it would all be for nought. They are living on the 
ecotone, and that's there lot.
>
>An interesting analysis would be whether or not Weberian societies
>chose the temperate zones or the temperate zones made them possible.
>You may not be able to determine that.

Agreed, an interesting analysis. Did North America prosper, compared 
to many other places colonized at the same time, because of its memes 
or because it was so spectacularly well-suited to colonization? I 
tend toward the latter.
>
>More interesting points
>
>(1) Hong Kong isn't a swamp, but it is very hot and humid and has
>no natural resources.  It may still have the most productive economy
>on the planet.

Well, it has a very significant natural resource: location.

Location in terms of trade with China, Japan, the West, etc. For its 
size, location is vastly more important than whether it has a tin 
mine or coal fields nearby.

And location in terms of a fine natural harbor.

Try declaring a similar-sized area in Mongolia or Siberia or Chad to 
be a trading zone and see what happens.

(Hong Kong is thus carrying on in the tradition of 
Rotterdam/Amsterdam, San Francisco, Seattle, Athens, and a dozen or 
so other natural ports. Schelling points for commerce, as it were.)
>
>(2) Las Vegas has a burgeoning economy yet it lives right smack
>in the middle of a very forbidding environment.  Certainly way
>over on the die-off side of the ecotone for humans.

I've spent time in Vegas, and this is not true. (Steve Schear, as I 
recall, has spent even more time there.) Las Vegas has abundant water 
and power, courtesy of the Colorado River, Hoover Dam, Lake Mead, 
etc. This is why the suburbs are spreading north toward Beatty and 
southeast towards Henderson and the dam.

It's also close to L.A. and easily reachable by air. Gambling and 
entertainment change the ecotone equation dramatically.

The dry air and (usually) warm temperatures make it a popular 
retirement and vacation spot. Few folks contemplate Dacca or Lagos as 
retirement destinations.
>
>Maybe the ecotone is modified by economic/energy input/output
>conditions.  That surviability is heavily modified by economic
>feedback loops would seem to be apparent and thus the expansion
>of the ecotone.

Of course. I thought this was self-evident. Los Angeles, for example, 
is prospering. But without the technology to bring in water, it would 
wither. Ecotones are what they _are_, the regions of 50/50 survival, 
not what they were before Man arrived.

>
>>  Those who live in dankness, in frozen wastelands, in fetid swamps, in
>>  the shadow of sand dunes, in clouds of tsetse flies and
>>  mosquitos...well, they fertilize the soil.
>
>Thanks, Tim.  Very informative.

You're welcome. It's why we need to "har

RE: "Harmonized Packet Data Intercept Standards"

[Lucky Green]

The vast majority of ETSI standards are published as PDF. I can't say I see
evidence of a conspiracy in that fact alone. However, there is ample
evidence of SIGINT-driven design decisions in the /contents/ of many, if not
most, of the security and "privacy" standards thus published.

In particular, ETSI's Security Algorithm Group of Experts (SAGE), the
membership of which is not disclosed to the public, has published numerous
algorithms that are interception friendly by design.

--Lucky Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

  "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look
   upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
  - Mohandas K. Gandhi, An Autobiography, pg 446
  http://www.citizensofamerica.org/missing.ram


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
> Of John Gilmore
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 20:38
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: "Harmonized Packet Data Intercept Standards"
>
>
> [I think we need software for automatically extracting the words from PDF
> and MS-Word documents so they can be found in web searches.  It looks like
> the bad guys are deliberately putting lots of interesting stuff in PDF
> to make it hard to find and read.--gnu]
>
> TITLE:Liaison statement to TIA TR-45 on Harmonized Packet
> Data Intercept
> Standards
>
> The following contributions are available for review at:
> http://www.tiaonline.org/standards/CALEA_JEM/contributions.cfm.
>
> SOURCE: ETSI SMG10 WPD/3GPP SA3 LI Joint Working Group
>
> Abstract: ETSI and 3GPP are currently completing a series of GPRS Packet
> Data Intercept standards for 2.5G and 3G mobile systems. The ETSI SMG10
> WPD/3GPP SA3 Joint Working Group on Lawful Intercept proposes harmonized
> packet data intercept standards with TR-45, T1P1 and 3GPP2. WPD is
> interested in co-operating with TR-45 towards this goal.  There is the
> potential here to have a single TIA/T1P1/3GPP2/ETSI/3GPP method
> and format
> for intercepting packet data service in mobile networks. Such a result
> would have obvious economy of scale benefits to manufacturers and service
> providers. The accompanying documents, ETSI TS 101 509 and 3GPP TS 33.107
> are the latest version of these packet data intercept specifications.
> Please review these standards as part of your own packet data standard
> work. Also let us know of your interest in developing a harmonized set of
> packet data standards.
>
>
>