Stus-List Re: A question for the designers
Richard, I've been giving Rob some time to answer, since he was more involved in the conceptual side of the design than I was. However, with regard to the longevity of the C&C product, one conversation I had with Butch Ulmer and Howie McMichael several years ago over drinks at the Larchmount Yacht Club comes to mind. Both, of course, had been heavily involved in the sales and sails of C&C product, especially on Long Island Sound. I asked them specifically what it was they thought differentiated a C&C from other similar product of the period? Without hesitation and in unison they both said *"quality"*! They went on to elaborate that by "quality" they meant quality throughout the whole organization, from design, to building, through sales and marketing, right up to the Board Room. They remembered dealing with people at all levels of the company who cared about the product and the customer, in both the Custom Shop and in both production plants. With that level of devotion it would have been hard not to build a good product. Of course, because the product was so well designed and built it would last forever, which automatically defied the concept of "planned obsolescence". With regard to the C&C 37 specifically, I remember that her design was heavily influenced by Big George wanting to steer the design office away from IOR oriented designs, and to a more "cruiser/racer" concept on which the company was originally founded. I recently had a look at the C&C 37 Design Book that resides at the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes at Kingston, and noted that while I actually wrote the original design brief on the boat,for some reason I actually had very little to do with her design. I'm not sure if that answered your question. If not, perhaps Rob could elaborate further. The boats were just simply well designed and well built. Of course, that is not to say that after 40 years or so of hard use, some don't require and deserve a little TLC. Rob On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 7:28 PM Neil Andersen via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Don’t forget the 32 😉. > > Neil Andersen > Rock Hall, MD 21661 > 484-354-8800 > -- > *From:* Richard Bush via CnC-List > *Sent:* Sunday, June 27, 2021 1:43 PM > > I have been racing on Wednesday nights this year after a hiatus from > racing for about 15-20 years; this is beer can racing, not the balls to the > wall ocean stuff, I am racing my 1985 C&C 37, (cruising sails,135 jib, > bimini, dodger, centerboard, dirty bottom, the list goes on). but I must > say it has really been fun; One of the biggest surprises is that this boat > is not only competitive, but we are winning races..; on light air nights > was walk away from the fleet! > > So, my question to Rob Ball and Rob Mazza and any of the other individuals > who go back to the time these boats were conceived and produced...did you > have any inkling that they would still be racing and competitive 35-40 > years into the > > I know from the comments on other boats, both here and on Facebook, that > other owners are also having success on the race course, whether its a 29, > 30, 33, 35 or 40, or more. > > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with > the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - > Stu > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with > the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks > - Stu Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: A question for the designers
Rob, thank you; that is a excellent answer and exactly what I had in mind...I would still love to have Rob Ball's thoughts about this as well...: the reference to the "non" planned obsolescence is appropriate...you guys knew it was a good boat (all of the models collectively) and that was the goal...; Don't see that in today's boats! Also, the comment about Big George's urge to stick with the basics...he gets an "atta boy" for that! Thank you again! Richard Richard N. Bush Law Offices 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 502-584-7255 -Original Message- From: Robert Mazza via CnC-List To: Stus-List Cc: Robert Mazza Sent: Mon, Jun 28, 2021 3:01 pm Subject: Stus-List Re: A question for the designers Richard, I've been giving Rob some time to answer, since he was more involved in the conceptual side of the design than I was. However, with regard to the longevity of the C&C product, one conversation I had with Butch Ulmer and Howie McMichael several years ago over drinks at the Larchmount Yacht Club comes to mind. Both, of course, had been heavily involved in the sales and sails of C&C product, especially on Long Island Sound. I asked them specifically what it was they thought differentiated a C&C from other similar product of the period? Without hesitation and in unison they both said "quality"! They went on to elaborate that by "quality" they meant quality throughout the whole organization, from design, to building, through sales and marketing, right up to the Board Room. They remembered dealing with people at all levels of the company who cared about the product and the customer, in both the Custom Shop and in both production plants. With that level of devotion it would have been hard not to build a good product. Of course, because the product was so well designed and built it would last forever, which automatically defied the concept of "planned obsolescence". With regard to the C&C 37 specifically, I remember that her design was heavily influenced by Big George wanting to steer the design office away from IOR oriented designs, and to a more "cruiser/racer" concept on which the company was originally founded. I recently had a look at the C&C 37 Design Book that resides at the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes at Kingston, and noted that while I actually wrote the original design brief on the boat,for some reason I actually had very little to do with her design. I'm not sure if that answered your question. If not, perhaps Rob could elaborate further. The boats were just simply well designed and well built. Of course, that is not to say that after 40 years or so of hard use, some don't require and deserve a little TLC. Rob On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 7:28 PM Neil Andersen via CnC-List wrote: Don’t forget the 32 😉. Neil AndersenRock Hall, MD 21661484-354-8800From: Richard Bush via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 1:43 PM I have been racing on Wednesday nights this year after a hiatus from racing for about 15-20 years; this is beer can racing, not the balls to the wall ocean stuff, I am racing my 1985 C&C 37, (cruising sails,135 jib, bimini, dodger, centerboard, dirty bottom, the list goes on). but I must say it has really been fun; One of the biggest surprises is that this boat is not only competitive, but we are winning races..; on light air nights was walk away from the fleet! So, my question to Rob Ball and Rob Mazza and any of the other individuals who go back to the time these boats were conceived and produced...did you have any inkling that they would still be racing and competitive 35-40 years into the I know from the comments on other boats, both here and on Facebook, that other owners are also having success on the race course, whether its a 29, 30, 33, 35 or 40, or more. Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurrayThanks - StuThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - StuThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: A question for the designers
My 1982 -37 is still cleaning house as well!! Pretty much every race and regatta ! A newish J34 just joined the fleet and seems to be hard to beat :( But he’s got the fancy Schmacy carbon sails, me cruising But yes Quality indeed! all systems including A/C are working well. And boat is dry! Love this boat! John Conklin S/V Halcyon S/V Heartbeat > On Jun 28, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Robert Mazza via CnC-List > wrote: > > > Richard, > > I've been giving Rob some time to answer, since he was more involved in the > conceptual side of the design than I was. However, with regard to the > longevity of the C&C product, one conversation I had with Butch Ulmer and > Howie McMichael several years ago over drinks at the Larchmount Yacht Club > comes to mind. Both, of course, had been heavily involved in the sales and > sails of C&C product, especially on Long Island Sound. I asked them > specifically what it was they thought differentiated a C&C from other similar > product of the period? Without hesitation and in unison they both said > "quality"! They went on to elaborate that by "quality" they meant quality > throughout the whole organization, from design, to building, through sales > and marketing, right up to the Board Room. They remembered dealing with > people at all levels of the company who cared about the product and the > customer, in both the Custom Shop and in both production plants. With that > level of devotion it would have been hard not to build a good product. Of > course, because the product was so well designed and built it would last > forever, which automatically defied the concept of "planned obsolescence". > > With regard to the C&C 37 specifically, I remember that her design was > heavily influenced by Big George wanting to steer the design office away from > IOR oriented designs, and to a more "cruiser/racer" concept on which the > company was originally founded. I recently had a look at the C&C 37 Design > Book that resides at the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes at Kingston, and > noted that while I actually wrote the original design brief on the boat,for > some reason I actually had very little to do with her design. > > I'm not sure if that answered your question. If not, perhaps Rob could > elaborate further. The boats were just simply well designed and well built. > Of course, that is not to say that after 40 years or so of hard use, some > don't require and deserve a little TLC. > > Rob > >> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 7:28 PM Neil Andersen via CnC-List >> wrote: >> Don’t forget the 32 😉. >> >> Neil Andersen >> Rock Hall, MD 21661 >> 484-354-8800 >> From: Richard Bush via CnC-List >> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 1:43 PM >> >> I have been racing on Wednesday nights this year after a hiatus from racing >> for about 15-20 years; this is beer can racing, not the balls to the wall >> ocean stuff, I am racing my 1985 C&C 37, (cruising sails,135 jib, bimini, >> dodger, centerboard, dirty bottom, the list goes on). but I must say it has >> really been fun; One of the biggest surprises is that this boat is not only >> competitive, but we are winning races..; on light air nights was walk away >> from the fleet! >> >> So, my question to Rob Ball and Rob Mazza and any of the other individuals >> who go back to the time these boats were conceived and produced...did you >> have any inkling that they would still be racing and competitive 35-40 years >> into the >> >> I know from the comments on other boats, both here and on Facebook, that >> other owners are also having success on the race course, whether its a 29, >> 30, 33, 35 or 40, or more. >> >> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with >> the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use >> PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu >> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with >> the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use >> PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - >> Stu > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with > the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34]
Hey all - When we bought our 1978 C&C 34 it had a nice smooth rudder action via our wheel helm. Over the past two years it's gradually stiffened and I think we need some amount of lubrication, but I'm not really sure where to start to diagnose the issue and come up with a plan to fix it. Anybody familiar with the steering setup on the 34? Andrew Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34]
Hi Andrew, I have a 1981 C&C34 so not certain if we have the same rudder shaft arrangement, but I'll explain what I have and you can have a look at yours. A friend has a 1981 C&C36 and his setup is the same. Crawl back below the cockpit to the rudder shaft and look for a grease cup on the rudder shaft housing. The cup is about midway up the shaft housing facing forward. It looks like a 1" diameter metal, screwed on cap about an inch tall (tall measuring horizontal). Get yourself some good, waterproof, grease (the local marina recommended "Green Grease" but was out. I stopped at WM and got some "Corrosion Block, Waterproof Grease". It's blue. Dig out whatever old grease you can from the grease cup and refill with fresh grease. Screw the grease cup all the way back on. Then repeat -- remove the grease cup, fill with fresh grease (no need to clean out because there will be a small amount of fresh grease from the previous cycle). Repeat. Eventually you will see the old grease comming out the top of the rudder shaft housing. If the boat is in the water, you can see the top of the rudder and watch for fresh grease coming out. I did this about 20 times before much old grease started to move -- really old, brown, hard grease. The PO of my boat did not understand that the fill, screw on, remove, fill, screw on .. had to be repeated many times. He filled the cup once, turned it on, and thought that was it! PO used to brag how balanced the boat was as he let go of the wheel and the boat continued on -- fact was the steering was so stiff it took a lot to move the rudder. Now I can steer with one finger after putting nearly an entire tube of grease in. You will find that crawling back to access the grease cup isn't a picnic. The C&C36 owner installed a Zerc fitting right on the grease cup and ran a 3ft hose forward. I did the same. Now we can attach a grease gun to the easily accessible hose and lube the rudder shaft. Once a year ought to do it. Good luck! Jeff Laman 1981 C&C34 "Harmony" Ludington, MI From: Andrew Means via CnC-List Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 6:58 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Andrew Means Subject: Stus-List Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34] Hey all - When we bought our 1978 C&C 34 it had a nice smooth rudder action via our wheel helm. Over the past two years it's gradually stiffened and I think we need some amount of lubrication, but I'm not really sure where to start to diagnose the issue and come up with a plan to fix it. Anybody familiar with the steering setup on the 34? Andrew Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34]
Lots of owners have installed zerk fittings to grease their rudders. Careful use of an drill bit followed by an end mill bit through the rudder shaft tube produce a hole that can be tapped to receive a pipe fitting or zerk. I added hydraulic hoses to mine so that I can remotely and easily charge grease. Of course the stiffness you feal may be coming from some other part of the steering system. Pedestal Bearings need just a dab of white lithium grease. The sheaves (and axles) at the bottom of the pedestal have bronze on stainless steel wear interface that needs a drop of any 30 weight oil. The chain gets a drop or two of 30 weight as well. That being said, If I had to guess, the rudder shaft is gummed up. I would try to get WD40 to wick down the shaft to clean and loosen the gum... Unless you are in a position to drop the rudder and clean it properly. That would make drilling your zerk ports easier too. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1nMYjorVEGAQz7qe2yad6Mry6uJxDJOvz Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 18:59 Andrew Means via CnC-List wrote: > Hey all - > > When we bought our 1978 C&C 34 it had a nice smooth rudder action via our > wheel helm. Over the past two years it's gradually stiffened and I think we > need some amount of lubrication, but I'm not really sure where to start to > diagnose the issue and come up with a plan to fix it. Anybody familiar with > the steering setup on the 34? > > Andrew > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with > the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks > - Stu Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: George Harding Cuthbertson's Binder #2 C&C 1969 - 1972
JohnKelly, Thank you for compiling and presenting this collection of documents and articles that detail, in my opinion, one of the primary elements (the C&C founding principals and companies) of the “Big Bang” of innovations that fueled the explosive growth in friends and family racing aboard more affordable racer/cruiser sailboats during the 70’s and 80’s. It seems to me that the rise and peak of sailboat racing participation here in the PNW closely tracks with the rise of C&C and a few other higher quality design/build companies. The C&C design philosophy created boats that allowed crews to compete toe rail to toe rail in point to point and offshore distance racing then raft up and socialize comfortably. The delivery/cruise back to the home port was often a comfortable, enjoyable sail in it’s own right. Thanks again for your contribution to documenting and making available the C&C historical information. Martin DeYoung Calypso 1971 C&C 43 Seattle/Port Townsend’s yard Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34]
If you look at the rudder tube (that surrounds the rudder post), there is a grease cup. Unscrew it, and fill it with grease. then screw it back on and give it a couple of turns as someone turns the wheel from one extreme to the other. In most cases, that's all it takes to make the helm smooth again. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:59 PM Andrew Means via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Hey all - > > When we bought our 1978 C&C 34 it had a nice smooth rudder action via our > wheel helm. Over the past two years it's gradually stiffened and I think we > need some amount of lubrication, but I'm not really sure where to start to > diagnose the issue and come up with a plan to fix it. Anybody familiar with > the steering setup on the 34? > > Andrew > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with > the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.paypal.me/stumurray__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!-tqHlcejqkg_lwW-PU0l2LOVThjhkoBB7_a8-ZByZZZaWWvS6oPc7VG8YZB-u68HNXw$ > Thanks - Stu Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34]
Did and do precisely the same for our 1982 34. We dropped rudder about 10 years ago so could properly clean and regrease the tube. Also need to periodically lube and grease all components of the steering pedestal. The shaft bearings are specified to use a Teflon grease. 30W oil for chain and idler pulleys. Coat of grease on wire. John and Maryann Legacy III 1982 C&C 34 Noank, CT From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 7:46 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman Subject: Stus-List Re: Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34] Hi Andrew, I have a 1981 C&C34 so not certain if we have the same rudder shaft arrangement, but I'll explain what I have and you can have a look at yours. A friend has a 1981 C&C36 and his setup is the same. Crawl back below the cockpit to the rudder shaft and look for a grease cup on the rudder shaft housing. The cup is about midway up the shaft housing facing forward. It looks like a 1" diameter metal, screwed on cap about an inch tall (tall measuring horizontal). Get yourself some good, waterproof, grease (the local marina recommended "Green Grease" but was out. I stopped at WM and got some "Corrosion Block, Waterproof Grease". It's blue. Dig out whatever old grease you can from the grease cup and refill with fresh grease. Screw the grease cup all the way back on. Then repeat -- remove the grease cup, fill with fresh grease (no need to clean out because there will be a small amount of fresh grease from the previous cycle). Repeat. Eventually you will see the old grease comming out the top of the rudder shaft housing. If the boat is in the water, you can see the top of the rudder and watch for fresh grease coming out. I did this about 20 times before much old grease started to move -- really old, brown, hard grease. The PO of my boat did not understand that the fill, screw on, remove, fill, screw on .. had to be repeated many times. He filled the cup once, turned it on, and thought that was it! PO used to brag how balanced the boat was as he let go of the wheel and the boat continued on -- fact was the steering was so stiff it took a lot to move the rudder. Now I can steer with one finger after putting nearly an entire tube of grease in. You will find that crawling back to access the grease cup isn't a picnic. The C&C36 owner installed a Zerc fitting right on the grease cup and ran a 3ft hose forward. I did the same. Now we can attach a grease gun to the easily accessible hose and lube the rudder shaft. Once a year ought to do it. Good luck! Jeff Laman 1981 C&C34 "Harmony" Ludington, MI _ From: Andrew Means via CnC-List Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 6:58 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Andrew Means Subject: Stus-List Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34] Hey all - When we bought our 1978 C&C 34 it had a nice smooth rudder action via our wheel helm. Over the past two years it's gradually stiffened and I think we need some amount of lubrication, but I'm not really sure where to start to diagnose the issue and come up with a plan to fix it. Anybody familiar with the steering setup on the 34? Andrew Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
Stus-List Re: A fun video...
Thanks for posting this, David. I hope this boat finds the right set of hands to give her another half century. In testing to see the cockpit engine access and wondering how many older C&Cs have this. Have thought many times I’d like to add one to my 85 37. Then I shudder at the possible leakage factor. Sure would be nice valve adjustment time. Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
