Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Good Day all,

Set Windstar ('85 33-2) on the hard yesterday, mast down.   A rewire of the
mast has been on the to-do list for awhile.   I noted (again) two
long-unused conductors poking out of the mast below the lower spreaders.
No light fixture, but there is a labelled breaker in the panel.

I can imagine unusual situations where one might need these but so far I
have not missed them.  Perhaps though, ignorance is bliss.

Do you use yours?   Tx as always.

Dave
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Re: Stus-List Freeze/thaw issues in lead keels

[John and Maryann Read via CnC-List]

Will second Bill's comment.  Two years ago a C&C 37 was in our boat yard for
the winter with a keel that was not well attached to the keel stub.  The
keel nuts would not tighten but slipped on the bolt threads.  Dropped the
keel to discover the bolts had not been sealed at manufacture allowing bilge
water in causing crevice corrosion to the point the threads were damaged.
This allowed keel movement elongating the holes in the stub which allowed
more leakage / corrosion.  Solution was to ship the keel to foundry for
repair and new bolts, repair stub holes, allow everything to thoroughly dry,
reinstall with good sealer all around.  Major job to say the least.

 

Dave's photos look like a similar problem - best of luck in repairing

 

 

John and Maryann

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bina
- gmail via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 11:15 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Bill Bina - gmail
Subject: Re: Stus-List Freeze/thaw issues in lead keels

 

Sealing keelbolts or filling the holes with anyting is more likely to
accelerate crevice corrosion. Any attempts to protect keelbolts needs to
center around keeping them bone dry. You sure do not want to seal in, or
encapsulate any moisture!

Bill Bina

 

On 9/26/2016 11:09 AM, Ron Ricci via CnC-List wrote:

Wow!  My boat had this but nowhere near as pronounced.  It shows itself as a
pink "ooze" coming out of a couple of minor blisters below the keel-hull
joint.  I have been putting about 3 gallons of antifreeze in the bilge each
winter to prevent any water that gets in the bilge from freezing, hence the
pink color.  Hopefully adding the antifreeze has prevented the problem from
getting worse.  

 

I do intend to undo the keel bolt nuts, seal around the keel bolts with
butyl rubber and torque the bolts.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Regards,

Ron

Ron Ricci

S/V Patriot

C&C 37+

Bristol, RI

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave S
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 9:10 AM
To: C&c Stus List
Cc: Dave S
Subject: Stus-List Freeze/thaw issues in lead keels

 

Good morning all.  Several weeks back there was a discussion surrounding
issues with bulging keel castings in colder climates.   Been meaning to post
some photos I took awhile back, here they are:

 

 

http://cncwindstar.blogspot.ca/

 

 

Dave 33-2 Windstar






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are greatly appreciated!

 

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Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Dave — I’ve got the LED combo deck/steaming light I replaced last winter; and 
yes, I do occasionally use it to light the deck at night.  More often when 
sailing at night, I’ll use a red LED headlamp, though, to save night vision.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Sep 27, 2016, at 5:44 AM, Dave S via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Good Day all,
> 
> Set Windstar ('85 33-2) on the hard yesterday, mast down.   A rewire of the 
> mast has been on the to-do list for awhile.   I noted (again) two long-unused 
> conductors poking out of the mast below the lower spreaders.   No light 
> fixture, but there is a labelled breaker in the panel.   
> 
> I can imagine unusual situations where one might need these but so far I have 
> not missed them.  Perhaps though, ignorance is bliss.
> 
> Do you use yours?   Tx as always.
> 
> Dave

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Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

The only time I ever used my deck light was when I docked late in the evening 
(at dark) and used the light when clearing the boat after the sail (putting on 
the main sail cover, coiling all lines etc.). Possibly you could use it when 
sailing if you have some major sail change coming (but then a red light might 
be more appropriate).

Marek
Ottawa, ON

From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 09:12
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Frederick G Street
Subject: Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

Dave — I’ve got the LED combo deck/steaming light I replaced last winter; and 
yes, I do occasionally use it to light the deck at night.  More often when 
sailing at night, I’ll use a red LED headlamp, though, to save night vision.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

On Sep 27, 2016, at 5:44 AM, Dave S via CnC-List  wrote:

Good Day all,

Set Windstar ('85 33-2) on the hard yesterday, mast down.   A rewire of the 
mast has been on the to-do list for awhile.   I noted (again) two long-unused 
conductors poking out of the mast below the lower spreaders.   No light 
fixture, but there is a labelled breaker in the panel.

I can imagine unusual situations where one might need these but so far I have 
not missed them.  Perhaps though, ignorance is bliss.

Do you use yours?   Tx as always.

Dave

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Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

One other thought to mention: if you’re sailing at night and want to confirm 
that another boat sees you, you can light up the sails pretty effectively using 
the deck light, as well.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Sep 27, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> The only time I ever used my deck light was when I docked late in the evening 
> (at dark) and used the light when clearing the boat after the sail (putting 
> on the main sail cover, coiling all lines etc.). Possibly you could use it 
> when sailing if you have some major sail change coming (but then a red light 
> might be more appropriate).
>  
> Marek
> Ottawa, ON

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Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

I don’t have them to use, but my steaming light does a fair job lighting up the 
foredeck.  If there is some kind of tangled up mess with a chute or something 
we might turn it on to see what is what. Traditional spreader lights are good 
to make your boat visible to others if needed or cleaning up after a nighttime 
party.

Joe
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G 
Street via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 09:29
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Frederick G Street
Subject: Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

One other thought to mention: if you’re sailing at night and want to confirm 
that another boat sees you, you can light up the sails pretty effectively using 
the deck light, as well.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

On Sep 27, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

The only time I ever used my deck light was when I docked late in the evening 
(at dark) and used the light when clearing the boat after the sail (putting on 
the main sail cover, coiling all lines etc.). Possibly you could use it when 
sailing if you have some major sail change coming (but then a red light might 
be more appropriate).

Marek
Ottawa, ON

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Re: Stus-List Freeze/thaw issues in lead keels

[Dave via CnC-List]

For the record - those are not photos of windstar!   The one that is really bad 
was a 33-2 and it piqued my curiosity so I went for a walk with my camera.  

I did have the waterlogged keel stub issue, which I fixed, and I then bedded 
and epoxy/glassed over the keel/hull joint, faired with epoxy, then coated with 
inyerprotect.  Hauled out yesterday and all appears well.  If work needs doing, 
it can all be skimmed of with a grinder.

Dave


Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 07:17:41 -0400
From: "John and Maryann Read" 
To: 
Subject: 
Message-ID: <00ad01d218b0$c43b5860$4cb20920$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Will second Bill's comment.  Two years ago a C&C 37 was in our boat yard for
the winter with a keel that was not well attached to the keel stub.  The
keel nuts would not tighten but slipped on the bolt threads.  Dropped the
keel to discover the bolts had not been sealed at manufacture allowing bilge
water in causing crevice corrosion to the point the threads were damaged.
This allowed keel movement elongating the holes in the stub which allowed
more leakage / corrosion.  Solution was to ship the keel to foundry for
repair and new bolts, repair stub holes, allow everything to thoroughly dry,
reinstall with good sealer all around.  Major job to say the least.



Dave's photos look like a similar problem - best of luck in repairing

Sent from my iPhone___

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Re: Stus-List Spreader lights

[Robert Gallagher via CnC-List]

Hi,

My previous C&C had spreader lights and I used them before the advent of
cheap, reliable, LED headlamps.

My current boat has a deck light under the steaming light and I don't use
it.

One nice feature of ether deck or spreader is that you can light up the
boat in an emergency.

If you do replace them, go LED.

May you can find some that will strobe for those nights when you need to
use the deck as a dance floor.

Rob
Hanuman
30MKII
Noank, CT
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Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

At night we have headlamps on.  We will light up the sail with the white
light.

Spreader lights would be nice dockside, but otherwise I would have no use
for them.  I don't like making holes in spars, so my default is less stuff.

Joel

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I don’t have them to use, but my steaming light does a fair job lighting
> up the foredeck.  If there is some kind of tangled up mess with a chute or
> something we might turn it on to see what is what. Traditional spreader
> lights are good to make your boat visible to others if needed or cleaning
> up after a nighttime party.
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of 
> *Frederick
> G Street via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 09:29
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Frederick G Street
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?
>
>
>
> One other thought to mention: if you’re sailing at night and want to
> confirm that another boat sees you, you can light up the sails pretty
> effectively using the deck light, as well.
>
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V *Oceanis* (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> The only time I ever used my deck light was when I docked late in the
> evening (at dark) and used the light when clearing the boat after the sail
> (putting on the main sail cover, coiling all lines etc.). Possibly you
> could use it when sailing if you have some major sail change coming (but
> then a red light might be more appropriate).
>
>
>
> Marek
>
> Ottawa, ON
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Thanks Randy, 

 

That is a sweet page, Thanks for Sharing.

I was able to make a .csv and import it into the e-95, (I used the C&C38 
Polars).   Unfortunately it will probably be next spring B4 I see what it does 
for my Dynamic Vectors/Laylines. 

 

Bill Coleman

C&C 39 Erie, PAanimated_favicon1

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:28 PM
To: cnc-list
Cc: RANDY
Subject: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

 

Listers-

 

Just wanted to share a site I saw with polars for a few different C&C models: 
http://jieter.github.io/orc-data/site/

 

If you look at the list of boats in the left-hand column (or search for "C&C" 
on the page), you'll see the following models:

* C&C 30 (this is the new one-design version, I can tell from the boat speeds 
downwind - it planes :)

* C&C 30E (this is the European edition of the C&C 30, apparently built & sold 
1977-1982)

* C&C 37

* C&C 38

* C&C 110

* C&C 115

Just click on one of those boats and you'll see its polar diagram and polar 
table.

 

I realize that polars are very boat-specific and sail-specific, but at least 
here are some data points.  For example the other week I took a couple hundred 
pounds of stuff off my boat, emptied the tanks, and cleaned the bottom, and I 
think it made a difference in light air.  But my sails are old and tired, so I 
know my boat's polars will change again when I get new sails and a folding prop.





For us software developers on the list, it almost looks like this guy 
@Jietermanis might have github-hosted software to create polar diagrams from 
user-supplied polar table CSVs.  I've tweeted him for more information.

 

Last night I got my SailTimer Wind Instrument installed at the masthead, so 
when I go out tomorrow afternoon the SailTimer App will be able to learn one 
polar curve for my boat, assuming I'm optimally trimmed on all points of sail.  
The wind is now forecast to be blowing 15 gusting 20, so hopefully I can get 
polar data with the same sails I race under (full main and 155 genoa, no 
spinnaker).  If the wind gets much stronger I might have to reduce sail, so the 
polar data wouldn't be representative of my normal racing configuration.

 

Best Regards,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

C&C 30-1 #7

Ken Caryl, CO

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Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Dave,

I have not used my spreader lights while sailing(yet), but I have used them 
many times for social activities mostly while docked at my marina but also 
sometimes while at anchor socializing with a large group.  That said, I 
normally anchor over night limiting my light and noise pollution.  There was 
one night when a large shrimper came into the island cove where I was anchored, 
it was very likely that we were seen at anchor, but it was comforting to 
announce our presence by switching on the spreaders for about 30 sec. 

-
Paul E.
1981 C&C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Carrabelle, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Sep 27, 2016, at 9:12 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 06:44:21 -0400
> From: Dave S mailto:syerd...@gmail.com>>
> To: "C&c Stus List" mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Subject: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?
> Message-ID:
>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Good Day all,
> 
> Set Windstar ('85 33-2) on the hard yesterday, mast down.   A rewire of the
> mast has been on the to-do list for awhile.   I noted (again) two
> long-unused conductors poking out of the mast below the lower spreaders.
> No light fixture, but there is a labelled breaker in the panel.
> 
> I can imagine unusual situations where one might need these but so far I
> have not missed them.  Perhaps though, ignorance is bliss.
> 
> Do you use yours?   Tx as always.
> 
> Dave

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Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I only use mine dockside at night when tidying the boat after a sail. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dreuge via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Dreuge"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:46:12 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them? 

Dave, 

I have not used my spreader lights while sailing(yet), but I have used them 
many times for social activities mostly while docked at my marina but also 
sometimes while at anchor socializing with a large group. That said, I normally 
anchor over night limiting my light and noise pollution. There was one night 
when a large shrimper came into the island cove where I was anchored, it was 
very likely that we were seen at anchor, but it was comforting to announce our 
presence by switching on the spreaders for about 30 sec. 

- 
Paul E. 
1981 C&C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose 
Carrabelle, FL 

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/ 




On Sep 27, 2016, at 9:12 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote: 

Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 06:44:21 -0400 
From: Dave S < syerd...@gmail.com > 
To: "C&c Stus List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Subject: Stus-List spreader lights - do you use them? 
Message-ID: 
< CAD7ywJNXDCCMGC==Fkp=tu64egxackwdmxqdcxyejkrvrqz...@mail.gmail.com > 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 

Good Day all, 

Set Windstar ('85 33-2) on the hard yesterday, mast down. A rewire of the 
mast has been on the to-do list for awhile. I noted (again) two 
long-unused conductors poking out of the mast below the lower spreaders. 
No light fixture, but there is a labelled breaker in the panel. 

I can imagine unusual situations where one might need these but so far I 
have not missed them. Perhaps though, ignorance is bliss. 

Do you use yours? Tx as always. 

Dave 





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Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[RANDY via CnC-List]

No problem Bill. 

Since we're back to this, I've appended the polar data (in CSV format) I got 
from my SailTimer Wind Instrument and SailTimer App this past weekend, as 
promised. Needless to say, I think this data is wrong, for reasons discussed 
below. For example it shows I can reach hull speed close-hauled in 9 knots of 
wind, but I'm slower than that on beam reach in the same wind. I don't think 
either of those things is true. 



,TWS 
TWA,3,6,9,12,15,18,21 
22.5,0.5,1.2,1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5 
45.0,2.0,5.0,6.7,6.7,6.7,6.7,6.7 
67.5,1.6,4.1,5.5,5.5,5.5,5.5,5.5 
90.0,1.6,4.1,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4 
112.5,2.7,4.0,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4 
135.0,1.5,3.8,5.0,5.0,5.0,5.0,5.0 
157.5,1.3,3.3,4.4,4.4,4.4,4.4,4.4 
180.0,2.6,3.0,4.0,4.0,4.0,4.0,4.0 




Now, why is this data wrong. First, it was the first time I'd used the 
SailTimer App in anger and it wasn't a controlled experiment in polar learning 
(the app lets you toggle polar learning on and off, and I wasn't careful about 
when it was on). Second, this data was collected in a variety of wind 
conditions and sail configurations. Friday afternoon it was blowing 20 gusting 
35 and I was sailing under double-reefed main only because my mom was aboard 
with only one other of my regular crew and they were nervous in that wind 
strength. Saturday and Sunday I was in a two-day regatta in very light and 
fickle air under full main, 155% genoa, and sometimes even a staysail. Because 
I was preoccupied with racing and adjusting sails constantly, I wasn't paying 
attention to the app and accurate polar learning. 




The app must have some kind of algorithm to interpolate / extrapolate boat 
speeds in wind speeds and angles that it hasn't observed, because I can 
guarantee I didn't hit every combination of TWS/TWA in the above data over the 
weekend. But this gives an example of what the instrument and app can do. 
Before the season ends, I'd like to get back out and do a controlled experiment 
- a new data set under main and 155 in say 12 knots, through every TWA, 
toggling learning on and off at the right times. 




Cheers, 

Randy 


- Original Message -

From: "Bill Coleman via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Bill Coleman"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:33:06 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 



Thanks Randy, 



That is a sweet page, Thanks for Sharing. 

I was able to make a .csv and import it into the e-95, (I used the C&C38 
Polars). Unfortunately it will probably be next spring B4 I see what it does 
for my Dynamic Vectors/Laylines. 




Bill Coleman 

C&C 39 Erie, PA 





From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:28 PM 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: RANDY 
Subject: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 





Listers- 





Just wanted to share a site I saw with polars for a few different C&C models: 
http://jieter.github.io/orc-data/site/ 





If you look at the list of boats in the left-hand column (or search for "C&C" 
on the page), you'll see the following models: 


* C&C 30 (this is the new one-design version, I can tell from the boat speeds 
downwind - it planes :) 


* C&C 30E (this is the European edition of the C&C 30, apparently built & sold 
1977-1982) 


* C&C 37 


* C&C 38 


* C&C 110 


* C&C 115 


Just click on one of those boats and you'll see its polar diagram and polar 
table. 





I realize that polars are very boat-specific and sail-specific, but at least 
here are some data points. For example the other week I took a couple hundred 
pounds of stuff off my boat, emptied the tanks, and cleaned the bottom, and I 
think it made a difference in light air. But my sails are old and tired, so I 
know my boat's polars will change again when I get new sails and a folding 
prop. 






For us software developers on the list, it almost looks like this guy 
@Jietermanis might have github-hosted software to create polar diagrams from 
user-supplied polar table CSVs. I've tweeted him for more information. 





Last night I got my SailTimer Wind Instrument installed at the masthead, so 
when I go out tomorrow afternoon the SailTimer App will be able to learn one 
polar curve for my boat, assuming I'm optimally trimmed on all points of sail. 
The wind is now forecast to be blowing 15 gusting 20, so hopefully I can get 
polar data with the same sails I race under (full main and 155 genoa, no 
spinnaker). If the wind gets much stronger I might have to reduce sail, so the 
polar data wouldn't be representative of my normal racing configuration. 





Best Regards, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C&C 30-1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 

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Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[John McKay via CnC-List]

Does anyone have the polars for a C&C 33 MK II?
John on Enterprise
 

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 12:58 PM, RANDY via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 No problem Bill.

Since we're back to this, I've appended the polar data (in CSV format) I got 
from my SailTimer Wind Instrument and SailTimer App this past weekend, as 
promised.  Needless to say, I think this data is wrong, for reasons discussed 
below.  For example it shows I can reach hull speed close-hauled in 9 knots of 
wind, but I'm slower than that on beam reach in the same wind.  I don't think 
either of those things is true.
,TWS
TWA,3,6,9,12,15,18,21
22.5,0.5,1.2,1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5
45.0,2.0,5.0,6.7,6.7,6.7,6.7,6.7
67.5,1.6,4.1,5.5,5.5,5.5,5.5,5.5
90.0,1.6,4.1,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4
112.5,2.7,4.0,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4
135.0,1.5,3.8,5.0,5.0,5.0,5.0,5.0
157.5,1.3,3.3,4.4,4.4,4.4,4.4,4.4
180.0,2.6,3.0,4.0,4.0,4.0,4.0,4.0
Now, why is this data wrong.  First, it was the first time I'd used the 
SailTimer App in anger and it wasn't a controlled experiment in polar learning 
(the app lets you toggle polar learning on and off, and I wasn't careful about 
when it was on).  Second, this data was collected in a variety of wind 
conditions and sail configurations.  Friday afternoon it was blowing 20 gusting 
35 and I was sailing under double-reefed main only because my mom was aboard 
with only one other of my regular crew and they were nervous in that wind 
strength.  Saturday and Sunday I was in a two-day regatta in very light and 
fickle air under full main, 155% genoa, and sometimes even a staysail.  Because 
I was preoccupied with racing and adjusting sails constantly, I wasn't paying 
attention to the app and accurate polar learning.
The app must have some kind of algorithm to interpolate / extrapolate boat 
speeds in wind speeds and angles that it hasn't observed, because I can 
guarantee I didn't hit every combination of TWS/TWA in the above data over the 
weekend.  But this gives an example of what the instrument and app can do.  
Before the season ends, I'd like to get back out and do a controlled experiment 
- a new data set under main and 155 in say 12 knots, through every TWA, 
toggling learning on and off at the right times.
Cheers,Randy
From: "Bill Coleman via CnC-List" 
To: "cnc-list" 
Cc: "Bill Coleman" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:33:06 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

#yiv4349699578 #yiv4349699578 _filtered #yiv4349699578 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 
3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4349699578 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 
2 4;} _filtered #yiv4349699578 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 
4;}#yiv4349699578 p.yiv4349699578MsoNormal, #yiv4349699578 
li.yiv4349699578MsoNormal, #yiv4349699578 div.yiv4349699578MsoNormal 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4349699578 a:link, 
#yiv4349699578 span.yiv4349699578MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4349699578 a:visited, #yiv4349699578 
span.yiv4349699578MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4349699578 
p.yiv4349699578MsoAcetate, #yiv4349699578 li.yiv4349699578MsoAcetate, 
#yiv4349699578 div.yiv4349699578MsoAcetate 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv4349699578 
span.yiv4349699578EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv4349699578 
span.yiv4349699578BalloonTextChar {}#yiv4349699578 .yiv4349699578MsoChpDefault 
{font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4349699578 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 
1.0in;}#yiv4349699578 div.yiv4349699578Section1 {}#yiv4349699578 Thanks Randy,  
That is a sweet page, Thanks for Sharing.I was able to make a .csv and import 
it into the e-95, (I usedthe C&C38 Polars).   Unfortunately it will probably be 
next spring B4 I seewhat it does for my Dynamic Vectors/Laylines.  Bill 
ColemanC&C 39 Erie, PA From: CnC-List[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On 
Behalf Of RANDY via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:28 PM
To: cnc-list
Cc: RANDY
Subject: Stus-List C&C Polars Again Listers- Justwanted to share a site I saw 
with polars for a few different C&Cmodels: 
http://jieter.github.io/orc-data/site/ Ifyou look at the list of boats in the 
left-hand column (or search for"C&C" on the page), you'll see the following 
models:*C&C 30 (this is the new one-design version, I can tell from the boat 
speedsdownwind - it planes :)*C&C 30E (this is the European edition of the C&C 
30, apparently built& sold 1977-1982)*C&C 37*C&C 38*C&C 110*C&C 115Justclick on 
one of those boats and you'll see its polar diagram and polar table. I realize 
that polars are very boat-specific and sail-specific,but at least here are some 
data points.  For example the other week I tooka couple hundred pounds of stuff 
off my boat, emptied the tanks, and cleanedthe bottom, and I think it made a 
difference in light air.  But my sailsare old and tired, so I know my boat's 
polars will change again when I get newsails and a folding prop.

Forus software developers on the list, it almost looks like thisguy 
@

Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Those are a reasonable approximation but they're from a 30E, the European 
edition of the 30, which has a different design from my MK I (e.g. reverse 
transom, different interior, probably different displacement), and who knows 
what sails and what kind of prop etc. That boat is apparently fastest on a 
shallow broad reach, probably under spinnaker. 

Assuming I can get an accurate set of polars for my boat this year, they'll 
still show lower speeds than the boat's true potential, because I have old 
tired sails including an undersized main, and I have a fixed prop. Even so I'd 
like to get an accurate set of polars as a baseline to compare against when I 
have new sails and a folding prop, hopefully next year. Then hopefully I can 
sail the boat to its true speed potential. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Bill Coleman"  
To: "RANDY"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:26:24 PM 
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 



Can’t you just use the polars given on that site? They have a C&C 30 




Wind velocity   

6kts

8kts

10kts   

12kts   

14kts   

16kts   

20kts   

Beat angles 

45.5°   

43.7°   

43.3°   

43.7°   

43° 

41.3°   

40.5° 


Beat VMG

2.55

3.08

3.46

3.8 

4.14

4.39

4.53 


52° 

3.98

4.73

5.31

5.82

6.15

6.35

6.5 


60° 

4.26

5.02

5.65

6.08

6.34

6.52

6.72 


75° 

4.51

5.3 

5.94

6.29

6.49

6.67

7.02 


90° 

4.64

5.61

6.24

6.55

6.71

6.8 

7.04 


110°

4.77

5.75

6.31

6.63

6.93

7.23

7.53 


120°

4.65

5.63

6.24

6.57

6.86

7.18

7.75 


135°

4.27

5.19

5.97

6.39

6.67

6.96

7.56 


150°

3.68

4.6 

5.39

6.04

6.4 

6.66

7.21 


Run VMG 

3.19

3.99

4.69

5.33

5.92

6.31

6.83 


Gybe angles 

148.1°  

152.1°  

153.5°  

159.8°  

180°

180°

180° 



Right? 




Regards, 



Bill Coleman 





From: RANDY [mailto:randy.staff...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 12:57 PM 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 





No problem Bill. 





Since we're back to this, I've appended the polar data (in CSV format) I got 
from my SailTimer Wind Instrument and SailTimer App this past weekend, as 
promised. Needless to say, I think this data is wrong, for reasons discussed 
below. For example it shows I can reach hull speed close-hauled in 9 knots of 
wind, but I'm slower than that on beam reach in the same wind. I don't think 
either of those things is true. 





,TWS 
TWA,3,6,9,12,15,18,21 
22.5,0.5,1.2,1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5 
45.0,2.0,5.0,6.7,6.7,6.7,6.7,6.7 
67.5,1.6,4.1,5.5,5.5,5.5,5.5,5.5 
90.0,1.6,4.1,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4 
112.5,2.7,4.0,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4,5.4 
135.0,1.5,3.8,5.0,5.0,5.0,5.0,5.0 
157.5,1.3,3.3,4.4,4.4,4.4,4.4,4.4 
180.0,2.6,3.0,4.0,4.0,4.0,4.0,4.0 



Now, why is this data wrong. First, it was the first time I'd used the 
SailTimer App in anger and it wasn't a controlled experiment in polar learning 
(the app lets you toggle polar learning on and off, and I wasn't careful about 
when it was on). Second, this data was collected in a variety of wind 
conditions and sail configurations. Friday afternoon it was blowing 20 gusting 
35 and I was sailing under double-reefed main only because my mom was aboard 
with only one other of my regular crew and they were nervous in that wind 
strength. Saturday and Sunday I was in a two-day regatta in very light and 
fickle air under full main, 155% genoa, and sometimes even a staysail. Because 
I was preoccupied with racing and adjusting sails constantly, I wasn't paying 
attention to the app and accurate polar learning. 



The app must have some kind of algorithm to interpolate / extrapolate boat 
speeds in wind speeds and angles that it hasn't observed, because I can 
guarantee I didn't hit every combination of TWS/TWA in the above data over the 
weekend. But this gives an example of what the instrument and app can do. 
Before the season ends, I'd like to get back out and do a controlled experiment 
- a new data set under main and 155 in say 12 knots, through every TWA, 
toggling learning on and off at the right times. 



Cheers, 

Randy 


- Original Message -



From: "Bill Coleman via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Bill Coleman"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:33:06 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 





Thanks Randy, 



That is a sweet page, Thanks for Sharing. 

I was able to make a .csv and import it into the e-95, (I used the C&C38 
Polars). Unfortunately it will probably be next spring B4 I see what it does 
for my Dynamic Vectors/Laylines. 




Bill Coleman 

C&C 39 Erie, PA 

Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List]

Add a dirty bottom at this time of year and they'd work for my boat 
too.  :-)

Are you using speed over ground or speed over water for your baseline speed?

--
Cheers,
Jeff Nelson
Muir Caileag
C&C 30
Armdale Y.C.
Halifax

On 9/27/2016 6:24 PM, RANDY via CnC-List wrote:
Those are a reasonable approximation but they're from a 30E, the 
European edition of the 30, which has a different design from my MK I 
(e.g. reverse transom, different interior, probably different 
displacement), and who knows what sails and what kind of prop etc. 
 That boat is apparently fastest on a shallow broad reach, probably 
under spinnaker.


Assuming I can get an accurate set of polars for my boat this year, 
they'll still show lower speeds than the boat's true potential, 
because I have old tired sails including an undersized main, and I 
have a fixed prop.  Even so I'd like to get an accurate set of polars 
as a baseline to compare against when I have new sails and a folding 
prop, hopefully next year.  Then hopefully I can sail the boat to its 
true speed potential.


Cheers,
Randy


*From: *"Bill Coleman" 
*To: *"RANDY" 
*Sent: *Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:26:24 PM
*Subject: *RE: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

Can’t you just use the polars given on that site?  They have a C&C 30

*Wind velocity*



*6kts*



*8kts*



*10kts*



*12kts*



*14kts*



*16kts*



*20kts*

Beat angles



45.5°



43.7°



43.3°



43.7°



43°



41.3°



40.5°

Beat VMG



2.55



3.08



3.46



3.8



4.14



4.39



4.53

52°



3.98



4.73



5.31



5.82



6.15



6.35



6.5

60°



4.26



5.02



5.65



6.08



6.34



6.52



6.72

75°



4.51



5.3



5.94



6.29



6.49



6.67



7.02

90°



4.64



5.61



6.24



6.55



6.71



6.8



7.04

110°



4.77



5.75



6.31



6.63



6.93



7.23



7.53

120°



4.65



5.63



6.24



6.57



6.86



7.18



7.75

135°



4.27



5.19



5.97



6.39



6.67



6.96



7.56

150°



3.68



4.6



5.39



6.04



6.4



6.66



7.21

Run VMG



3.19



3.99



4.69



5.33



5.92



6.31



6.83

Gybe angles



148.1°



152.1°



153.5°



159.8°



180°



180°



180°

Right?

Regards,

Bill Coleman



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Speed over ground - the SailTimer App uses GPS to calculate speed. And it's 
showing about 0.75 - 1.0 knots faster than my onboard transducer-based speed 
instrument. Since I trust GPS more, I'm now calibrating the onboard instrument 
to match the speed shown by the app. 

I scrubbed my bottom a few weeks ago but couldn't see to get the keel (murky 
marina water), so I'm sure it's not perfectly clean. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Jeffrey Nelson"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:42:46 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 



Add a dirty bottom at this time of year and they'd work for my boat too. :-) 
Are you using speed over ground or speed over water for your baseline speed? 
-- 
Cheers, 
Jeff Nelson 
Muir Caileag 
C&C 30 
Armdale Y.C. 
Halifax 

On 9/27/2016 6:24 PM, RANDY via CnC-List wrote: 



Those are a reasonable approximation but they're from a 30E, the European 
edition of the 30, which has a different design from my MK I (e.g. reverse 
transom, different interior, probably different displacement), and who knows 
what sails and what kind of prop etc. That boat is apparently fastest on a 
shallow broad reach, probably under spinnaker. 

Assuming I can get an accurate set of polars for my boat this year, they'll 
still show lower speeds than the boat's true potential, because I have old 
tired sails including an undersized main, and I have a fixed prop. Even so I'd 
like to get an accurate set of polars as a baseline to compare against when I 
have new sails and a folding prop, hopefully next year. Then hopefully I can 
sail the boat to its true speed potential. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Bill Coleman"  
To: "RANDY"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:26:24 PM 
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 



Can’t you just use the polars given on that site? They have a C&C 30 




Wind velocity   

6kts

8kts

10kts   

12kts   

14kts   

16kts   

20kts 


Beat angles 

45.5°   

43.7°   

43.3°   

43.7°   

43° 

41.3°   

40.5° 


Beat VMG

2.55

3.08

3.46

3.8 

4.14

4.39

4.53 


52° 

3.98

4.73

5.31

5.82

6.15

6.35

6.5 


60° 

4.26

5.02

5.65

6.08

6.34

6.52

6.72 


75° 

4.51

5.3 

5.94

6.29

6.49

6.67

7.02 


90° 

4.64

5.61

6.24

6.55

6.71

6.8 

7.04 


110°

4.77

5.75

6.31

6.63

6.93

7.23

7.53 


120°

4.65

5.63

6.24

6.57

6.86

7.18

7.75 


135°

4.27

5.19

5.97

6.39

6.67

6.96

7.56 


150°

3.68

4.6 

5.39

6.04

6.4 

6.66

7.21 


Run VMG 

3.19

3.99

4.69

5.33

5.92

6.31

6.83 


Gybe angles 

148.1°  

152.1°  

153.5°  

159.8°  

180°

180°

180° 



Right? 




Regards, 



Bill Coleman 




___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List]

Perfect.

Btw, depending on where you sail, your Speed over water won't ever 
match.  By doing the math between the two you can determine
how much current you are in and with some calculations how much that is 
setting you off course.  Food for thought.



On 9/27/2016 7:46 PM, RANDY wrote:
Speed over ground - the SailTimer App uses GPS to calculate speed. 
 And it's showing about 0.75 - 1.0 knots faster than my onboard 
transducer-based speed instrument.  Since I trust GPS more, I'm now 
calibrating the onboard instrument to match the speed shown by the app.


I scrubbed my bottom a few weeks ago but couldn't see to get the keel 
(murky marina water), so I'm sure it's not perfectly clean.


Cheers,
Randy


*From: *"Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List" 
*To: *"cnc-list" 
*Cc: *"Jeffrey Nelson" 
*Sent: *Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:42:46 PM
*Subject: *Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

Add a dirty bottom at this time of year and they'd work for my boat 
too.  :-)
Are you using speed over ground or speed over water for your baseline 
speed?


--
Cheers,
Jeff Nelson
Muir Caileag
C&C 30
Armdale Y.C.
Halifax

On 9/27/2016 6:24 PM, RANDY via CnC-List wrote:

Those are a reasonable approximation but they're from a 30E, the
European edition of the 30, which has a different design from my
MK I (e.g. reverse transom, different interior, probably different
displacement), and who knows what sails and what kind of prop etc.
 That boat is apparently fastest on a shallow broad reach,
probably under spinnaker.

Assuming I can get an accurate set of polars for my boat this
year, they'll still show lower speeds than the boat's true
potential, because I have old tired sails including an undersized
main, and I have a fixed prop.  Even so I'd like to get an
accurate set of polars as a baseline to compare against when I
have new sails and a folding prop, hopefully next year.  Then
hopefully I can sail the boat to its true speed potential.

Cheers,
Randy


*From: *"Bill Coleman" 
*To: *"RANDY" 
*Sent: *Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:26:24 PM
*Subject: *RE: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

Can’t you just use the polars given on that site?  They have a C&C 30

*Wind velocity*



*6kts*



*8kts*



*10kts*



*12kts*



*14kts*



*16kts*



*20kts*

Beat angles



45.5°



43.7°



43.3°



43.7°



43°



41.3°



40.5°

Beat VMG



2.55



3.08



3.46



3.8



4.14



4.39



4.53

52°



3.98



4.73



5.31



5.82



6.15



6.35



6.5

60°



4.26



5.02



5.65



6.08



6.34



6.52



6.72

75°



4.51



5.3



5.94



6.29



6.49



6.67



7.02

90°



4.64



5.61



6.24



6.55



6.71



6.8



7.04

110°



4.77



5.75



6.31



6.63



6.93



7.23



7.53

120°



4.65



5.63



6.24



6.57



6.86



7.18



7.75

135°



4.27



5.19



5.97



6.39



6.67



6.96



7.56

150°



3.68



4.6



5.39



6.04



6.4



6.66



7.21

Run VMG



3.19



3.99



4.69



5.33



5.92



6.31



6.83

Gybe angles



148.1°



152.1°



153.5°



159.8°



180°



180°



180°

Right?

Regards,

Bill Coleman



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If 
you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All 
Contributions are greatly appreciated!





--
Boat_Sig Cheers,
Jeff Nelson
Muir Caileag
C&C 30
Armdale Y.C.
Halifax
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly

Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I sail on a reservoir in Colorado. It has neither tides nor currents nor seas 
:) Except for powerboat wake, which makes the lake choppy on calm days. And the 
occasional wind-driven whitecapped waves when the breeze is really up. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Jeffrey Nelson"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 5:07:55 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 



Perfect. 

Btw, depending on where you sail, your Speed over water won't ever match. By 
doing the math between the two you can determine 
how much current you are in and with some calculations how much that is setting 
you off course. Food for thought. 

On 9/27/2016 7:46 PM, RANDY wrote: 



Speed over ground - the SailTimer App uses GPS to calculate speed. And it's 
showing about 0.75 - 1.0 knots faster than my onboard transducer-based speed 
instrument. Since I trust GPS more, I'm now calibrating the onboard instrument 
to match the speed shown by the app. 

I scrubbed my bottom a few weeks ago but couldn't see to get the keel (murky 
marina water), so I'm sure it's not perfectly clean. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Jeffrey Nelson"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:42:46 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 



Add a dirty bottom at this time of year and they'd work for my boat too. :-) 
Are you using speed over ground or speed over water for your baseline speed? 
-- 
Cheers, 
Jeff Nelson 
Muir Caileag 
C&C 30 
Armdale Y.C. 
Halifax 

On 9/27/2016 6:24 PM, RANDY via CnC-List wrote: 



Those are a reasonable approximation but they're from a 30E, the European 
edition of the 30, which has a different design from my MK I (e.g. reverse 
transom, different interior, probably different displacement), and who knows 
what sails and what kind of prop etc. That boat is apparently fastest on a 
shallow broad reach, probably under spinnaker. 

Assuming I can get an accurate set of polars for my boat this year, they'll 
still show lower speeds than the boat's true potential, because I have old 
tired sails including an undersized main, and I have a fixed prop. Even so I'd 
like to get an accurate set of polars as a baseline to compare against when I 
have new sails and a folding prop, hopefully next year. Then hopefully I can 
sail the boat to its true speed potential. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Bill Coleman"  
To: "RANDY"  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:26:24 PM 
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C Polars Again 



Can’t you just use the polars given on that site? They have a C&C 30 



Wind velocity   

6kts

8kts

10kts   

12kts   

14kts   

16kts   

20kts 

Beat angles 

45.5°   

43.7°   

43.3°   

43.7°   

43° 

41.3°   

40.5° 


Beat VMG

2.55

3.08

3.46

3.8 

4.14

4.39

4.53 


52° 

3.98

4.73

5.31

5.82

6.15

6.35

6.5 


60° 

4.26

5.02

5.65

6.08

6.34

6.52

6.72 


75° 

4.51

5.3 

5.94

6.29

6.49

6.67

7.02 


90° 

4.64

5.61

6.24

6.55

6.71

6.8 

7.04 


110°

4.77

5.75

6.31

6.63

6.93

7.23

7.53 


120°

4.65

5.63

6.24

6.57

6.86

7.18

7.75 


135°

4.27

5.19

5.97

6.39

6.67

6.96

7.56 


150°

3.68

4.6 

5.39

6.04

6.4 

6.66

7.21 


Run VMG 

3.19

3.99

4.69

5.33

5.92

6.31

6.83 


Gybe angles 

148.1°  

152.1°  

153.5°  

159.8°  

180°

180°

180° 



Right? 




Regards, 



Bill Coleman 




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-- 
Boat_Sig Cheers, 
Jeff Nelson 
Muir Caileag 
C&C 30 
Armdale Y.C. 
Halifax 

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Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again

[Lee Rosenbaum via CnC-List]

Attached are the polars for a C&C 33 MKII

Regards,
Lee Rosenbaum
Kookaburra
C&C 33-2
Kenosha, WI

-Original Message-
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 19:23:32 + (UTC)
From: John McKay 
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C Polars Again
Message-ID: <1607791233.409403.1475004212...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Does anyone have the polars for a C&C 33 MK II?
John on Enterprise
 




C&C33Mk2 Polars-Interpolated.xlsx
Description: MS-Excel 2007 spreadsheet
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