Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phil Perry]

On 10/12/2020 03:55, Brendan Conoboy wrote:

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:07 PM Lamar Owen  wrote:


On 12/9/20 12:10 PM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:

While I'm not sure how we'll get there, it seems like the
mutually satisfying end result would be one where third party binary
drivers work with CentOS Stream kernels.  Let's see what we can do.


So, I want to address this part a bit.  In MANY cases, it's not a
third-party driver that ELrepo packages; it's an in-kernel driver that
Red Hat has decided to disable.  Such as the megaraid_sas driver I need
for my servers.



Ah yes, that's a great call-out.  I'm not sure what the plan is there (or
if there is one), but to me it seems like the sort of thing a SIG would
build.



Well, yes, about 10 years too late for those discussions I'm afraid ;-)

And besides, why on earth would Red Hat remove support for older 
hardware that you (understandably) no longer want to commit resources to 
maintaining, only to turn round and commit resources to maintaining them 
in a SIG? That's why you guys reached out to us (elrepo) in the first place.


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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Gionatan Danti]

Il 2020-12-10 04:55 Brendan Conoboy ha scritto:

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:07 PM Lamar Owen  wrote:


On 12/9/20 12:10 PM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> While I'm not sure how we'll get there, it seems like the
> mutually satisfying end result would be one where third party binary
> drivers work with CentOS Stream kernels.  Let's see what we can do.
>
So, I want to address this part a bit.  In MANY cases, it's not a
third-party driver that ELrepo packages; it's an in-kernel driver that
Red Hat has decided to disable.  Such as the megaraid_sas driver I 
need

for my servers.



Ah yes, that's a great call-out.  I'm not sure what the plan is there 
(or

if there is one), but to me it seems like the sort of thing a SIG would
build.


Brendan, can you clarify the following points?
- are you going to keep stable ABI between Stream kernel releases, or 
should we expect each kernel to break 3rd party drivers/modules?
- what/how many synchronization points are going to be with RHEL 
releases?
- what about security updates? Will they be released *before* the 
corresponding RHEL secure patch, or should we expect the (slow) current 
update cadency?
- is an upgrade path from Stream-8 to Stream-9 planned, or the usual 
"total server rebuild" will be necessary?


Full disclosure: the main CentOS point was to be 100% compatible, down 
to the specific kernel used, with RHEL. To get that, we lived with: a) 
comparatively few packages, b) not-working yum security-only updates and 
c) very restrictive selinux policies.


I am heavily invested in CentOS/RHEL ecosystem and I opened many bug 
reports/enhancement requests in the past years, so I would really like 
to continue using CentOS. However, using Stream seems to removing the 
key selling point (ie: total RHEL compatibility) without clear benefit.


Thanks.

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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 09/12/2020 à 17:52, Frank Cox a écrit :
> Is it necessary to create an Oracle account to do anything with Oracle Linux
> that can't be done without creating an account?  In other words, does Oracle
> Linux demand that you log into Oracle to complete an installation, update
> that installation, install software from their epel-equivalent, or do any
> other of the regular sysadmin activities that one would expect to be doing?
> If I start installing Oracle Linux on my machines or my client's machines,
> what benefit do I get by signing up for an Oracle account that I don't have
> if I don't sign up for one?

https://twitter.com/microlinux_eu/status/1336962009338933248

:o)

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Simon Matter]

> Le 10/12/2020 à 00:51, Joshua Kramer a écrit :
>> After reading and digesting a ton of community chatter about the
>> recent CentOS announcement I've come to the conclusion that there's a
>> lot of good about this, but there are also a lot of concerns that are
>> being ignored.  And nobody so far has stared directly into the eyes of
>> the elephant in the room.  So here goes.
>>
>> The Good: From a technical perspective- both in the sense of "getting
>> newer software" and "technical community being more involved in
>> bugfixes, etc"- having *a version* of CentOS called "AppStream" is
>> fantastic. The various RedHat and CentOS folks who have been extolling
>> these virtues in blog posts and twitter feeds are right-on.  But from
>> responses I've seen, it appears to me that they think that these
>> virtues are enough to completely gloss over the complete and utter
>> clusterfrackas they've caused.
>>
>> The Bad: No point releases.  There is POSITIVELY NO* REASON that they
>> can't have AppSream and still do point releases.  Brand new stuff
>> would go into AppStream, at some point they do a point release of
>> RHEL, then follow the normal CentOS procedure to spin a CentOS build
>> of that point release.  This is already a tried and true process.  It
>> will cost RedHat all of what, low five digits (if that) in developer
>> salary to do this.  Heck I'm sure some volunteers would step up to use
>> the existing infrastructure if RedHat didn't want to spend any paid
>> developer time on this.
>>
>> The Ugly: I denoted "NO* REASON" above because there actually *are*
>> reasons that we are not privy to.
>> https://twitter.com/JoshuaPKr/status/1336744681716244480  Since RedHat
>> is not being transparent with this, we are forced to speculate and
>> remain bewildered at why they would make a decision that is going to
>> cost them so much in the long run.  The most common (and most likely)
>> theory is that some MBA somewhere in middle management saw all of this
>> CentOS being used in production environments (and otherwise downloaded
>> for free), and had the idea that if CentOS had its head cut off people
>> would just buy RHEL subscriptions.
>>
>> That may happen in a few cases, but for the most part, that is NOT
>> what is going to happen.  By handling the CentOS situation in this
>> way, RedHat has branded itself as a company that acts in bad faith. If
>> a company acts in bad faith towards a community where non-monetary
>> value is exchanged, WHY would you trust that company to hold up its
>> obligations for contracts that are actually paid?  People are going to
>> do whatever they can to get away from RedHat.  Debian, Ubuntu, SuSE
>> will all benefit from this.  Even in cases where non-profits and other
>> similar clients "contact RedHat about options because Stream won't
>> meet their needs"- why would such entities have ANY reason to trust
>> anything that RedHat says to them?
>>
>> There have been hundreds of other messages that describe exactly what
>> RedHat loses in this deal so I won't go into that here.  But branding
>> oneself as a "bad faith actor" is usually a terrible way to try to
>> pick up a little bit of subscription revenue.  In the end it's going
>> to be a losing scenario.  This is an absolutely UNMITIGATED DISASTER
>> from a marketing and community goodwill standpoint.
>>
>> It can, however, be mitigated if RedHat backtracks, admits their
>> mistake, and affirmatively commits to support future CentOS point
>> releases.  I'll be interested to see how this turns out.
>
> +1
>
> Spot on.
>
> Thank you for voicing all our concerns in such an articulate manner.
>
> https://twitter.com/microlinux_eu/status/1336765811860574209
>

Hi,

I can only second what has been said in all the posts to this list during
the past hours and days.

Still, I'd like to quickly express my view on the situation:

RedHat has made a BIG mistake, most likely the biggest in their history
and one can only wonder how this could happen. They have disappointed so
many people who were supporting them in what they did and were a driver of
their business by attracting customers to buy from RedHat.

To me it's clear that "the child has already fallen into the well". It's
like in a marriage, you know where the red line is and you don't cross it
- until you like to make insane decisions.

Right now I have not decided where to go next but I'm sad to realize that
there is one Open Source company less to trust in future. I'm not sure the
decision makers were really aware what they did to a large community of
promoters of their business but I guess it won't have a positive impact in
the long run.

Thanks to the CentOS team for all their hard work over all the years! You
really didn't deserve this to happen.

Kind regards,
Simon

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Re: [CentOS] Moving to CentOS 8 Stream

[Pete Biggs]

Johnny -
Thanks for that.  It did mostly work - it wasn't keen on installing the
RPM you pointed to, but once it did the distro swap worked and the
system is now only using 8-stream as its repositories.

Thanks

P.




> sure .. you can manually add the one repo required to manually do the
> swap command ..
> 
> Or maybe just install this package and then remove the other one:
> 
> you want:
> 
> http://mirror.centos.org/centos/8-
stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/Packages/centos-stream-repos-8-2.el8.noarch.rpm
> 
> installed first
> 
> Then remove centos-repos
> 
> Or you could manually create a CentOS-Stream-BaseOS.repo (you could
even
> name it test.repo and remove it later once switched)  this will work:
> 
> [baseos]
> name=CentOS Stream $releasever - BaseOS
>
mirrorlist=http://mirrorlist.centos.org/?release=$stream&arch=$basearch
&repo=BaseOS&infra=$infra
>
#baseurl=http://mirror.centos.org/$contentdir/$stream/BaseOS/$basearch/
os/
> gpgcheck=1
> enabled=1
> gpgkey=file:///etc/pki/rpm-gpg/RPM-GPG-KEY-centosofficial
> 
> 
> in /etc/yum.repos.d/.repo
> 
> then once the distro-sync command works, remove 
> 
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Rainer Traut]

Am 09.12.20 um 17:52 schrieb Frank Cox:

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 11:18:25 +0100
Rainer Traut wrote:


Based on my extremely limited knowledge around Oracle Linux, it sounds like
that might be a go-to solution for Centos refugees.

But is it, really?



Yes, it is better than Centos and in some aspects better than RHEL:

- faster security updates than Centos, directly behind RHEl
- better kernels than RHEL and CentOS (UEKs) wih more features
- free to download (no subscription needed):
https://yum.oracle.com/oracle-linux-isos.html
- free to use:
https://yum.oracle.com/oracle-linux-8.html
- massive amount of extra packes and full rebuild of EPEL (same link):
https://yum.oracle.com/oracle-linux-8.html


You sound like you know what's what with Oracle Linux, so here are a few 
follow-up questions.

Someone else on this list said that the reason he stopped installing it was 
because every time he did, he got snowed under with sales calls from Oracle.  
Have you found this to be the case?


I'll try to answer best to my knowledge.


Is it necessary to create an Oracle account to do anything with Oracle Linux 
that can't be done without creating an account?

No Account needed.


In other words, does Oracle Linux demand that you log into Oracle to complete 
an installation, update that installation, install software from their 
epel-equivalent, or do any other of the regular sysadmin activities that one 
would expect to be doing?

No.


If I start installing Oracle Linux on my machines or my client's machines, what 
benefit do I get by signing up for an Oracle account that I don't have if I 
don't sign up for one?

I have an oracle account but never used it for/with Oracle linux.


Does Oracle Linux have a free support and discussion mailing list similar to 
this one?

There are oracle communities where you need an oracle account:
https://community.oracle.com/tech/apps-infra/categories/oracle_linux


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 07:09 schrieb Nicolas Kovacs:

Le 10/12/2020 à 00:51, Joshua Kramer a écrit :

There have been hundreds of other messages that describe exactly what
RedHat loses in this deal so I won't go into that here.  But branding
oneself as a "bad faith actor" is usually a terrible way to try to
pick up a little bit of subscription revenue.  In the end it's going
to be a losing scenario.  This is an absolutely UNMITIGATED DISASTER
from a marketing and community goodwill standpoint.


Reactions from competent sources all over the world are downright negative.

https://linuxfr.org/news/centos-se-saborde-t-elle

https://kofler.info/nachruf-auf-centos/

And this petition launched a bit more than a day ago already counts 3500
signatures (and growing fast):

https://www.change.org/p/centos-governing-board-do-not-destroy-centos-by-using-it-as-a-rhel-upstream

If I was a CentOS developer or a Red Hat employee, a mere glance at the
comments would inform me that I've just made a disastrous decision. Even if
there *may* be *some* technical merits to it.


It must be a strong management when they roll back. Hope is the last one 
that die ...


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[CentOS] Centos Developers Opinion

[Sergio Belkin]

I would like to know the opinion of the CentOS developers on the decision
to end CentOS. Because people already made his voice heard...

What do you think?

Is it a great decision and master play of business? Because you know
'devops-container-facebook-intel-thing' and "hey is the inevitable train of
history?

"Adapt or die?" Really?

How could you explain what hundred of people around the world that already
implemented CentOS 8 and helped reporting bugs, many of them cannot afford
RH subscription?

How could somebody trust on a company that one day happily says "if you
don't like CentOS Stream, pay us?" and sents to trash a project of 16 years?


Did nobody know what Red Hat was working on this? How strange is...


I read you, we, the CentOS community read you, what do you think?


Thanks in advance
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[CentOS] CentOS-announce Digest, Vol 189, Issue 3

[centos-announce-request]

Send CentOS-announce mailing list submissions to
centos-annou...@centos.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. CESA-2020:5239 Important CentOS 7 firefox Security Update
  (Johnny Hughes)
   2. CESA-2020:5235 Important CentOS 7 thunderbird Security Update
  (Johnny Hughes)


--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 20:21:57 +
From: Johnny Hughes 
To: centos-annou...@centos.org
Subject: [CentOS-announce] CESA-2020:5239 Important CentOS 7 firefox
Security Update
Message-ID: <20201209202157.ga1...@bstore1.rdu2.centos.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


CentOS Errata and Security Advisory 2020:5239 Important

Upstream details at : https://access.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2020:5239

The following updated files have been uploaded and are currently 
syncing to the mirrors: ( sha256sum Filename ) 

x86_64:
cb3a549fe050cd75184479500b542065e37366ce62d90769646352bf2d9798a2  
firefox-78.5.0-1.el7.centos.i686.rpm
4276584eb593d2fb304ab50518d7e2c4f955abe8fc5b3d1b9f0dd053d363f298  
firefox-78.5.0-1.el7.centos.x86_64.rpm

Source:
3d26716ee84904cf6f57b0e9d00d84765a498c15b8f0ac649d7f49248c61dca0  
firefox-78.5.0-1.el7.centos.src.rpm



-- 
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Twitter: @JohnnyCentOS



--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 20:24:41 +
From: Johnny Hughes 
To: centos-annou...@centos.org
Subject: [CentOS-announce] CESA-2020:5235 Important CentOS 7
thunderbird Security Update
Message-ID: <20201209202441.ga2...@bstore1.rdu2.centos.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


CentOS Errata and Security Advisory 2020:5235 Important

Upstream details at : https://access.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2020:5235

The following updated files have been uploaded and are currently 
syncing to the mirrors: ( sha256sum Filename ) 

x86_64:
f57d7074e8e50a23c9a10a230c6edbd1f48bc3130046704525be72e10c371656  
thunderbird-78.5.0-1.el7.centos.x86_64.rpm

Source:
6d147795bfe6c18c042e338932f14bdfcde9403bec0ccbb0c9c1132545645e57  
thunderbird-78.5.0-1.el7.centos.src.rpm



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[CentOS] Future of CentosPlus?

[Gerhard Schneider]

Is there anything known about the future of CentosPlus after moving to a
Pre-RHEL CentOS Stream?

It would be of no interest to RedHat..

Gerhard Schneider

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Steve Thompson]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Joshua Kramer wrote:


It can, however, be mitigated if RedHat backtracks, admits their
mistake, and affirmatively commits to support future CentOS point
releases.  I'll be interested to see how this turns out.


It may already be too late. Even if RedHat says "my bad" and goes back on 
this decision, not many will trust them in the future.


Steve
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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Brendan Conoboy]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:54 AM Phil Perry  wrote:

> On 10/12/2020 03:55, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:07 PM Lamar Owen  wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/9/20 12:10 PM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> >>> While I'm not sure how we'll get there, it seems like the
> >>> mutually satisfying end result would be one where third party binary
> >>> drivers work with CentOS Stream kernels.  Let's see what we can do.
> >>>
> >> So, I want to address this part a bit.  In MANY cases, it's not a
> >> third-party driver that ELrepo packages; it's an in-kernel driver that
> >> Red Hat has decided to disable.  Such as the megaraid_sas driver I need
> >> for my servers.
> >
> > Ah yes, that's a great call-out.  I'm not sure what the plan is there (or
> > if there is one), but to me it seems like the sort of thing a SIG would
> > build.
> >
>
> Well, yes, about 10 years too late for those discussions I'm afraid ;-)
>

Yes, but the calculus has changed a bit from 10 years ago, too, no?


> And besides, why on earth would Red Hat remove support for older
> hardware that you (understandably) no longer want to commit resources to
> maintaining, only to turn round and commit resources to maintaining them
> in a SIG? That's why you guys reached out to us (elrepo) in the first
> place.


Note we've moved from me discussing facts about how RHEL works to my
unauthoritative opinions on matters ;-) My point is really only this: if
past decisions no longer make the most sense in the context of new events,
we need to redesign.  To the extent we can make things better we should
make them better.  For this topic it's probably too early to tell if or how
things should change in light of the upcoming changes, but it's clear that
handling it will make CentOS Stream adoption an option for more people who
use CentOS today.

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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Brendan Conoboy]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 1:01 AM Gionatan Danti  wrote:

> Il 2020-12-10 04:55 Brendan Conoboy ha scritto:
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:07 PM Lamar Owen  wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/9/20 12:10 PM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> >> > While I'm not sure how we'll get there, it seems like the
> >> > mutually satisfying end result would be one where third party binary
> >> > drivers work with CentOS Stream kernels.  Let's see what we can do.
> >> >
> >> So, I want to address this part a bit.  In MANY cases, it's not a
> >> third-party driver that ELrepo packages; it's an in-kernel driver that
> >> Red Hat has decided to disable.  Such as the megaraid_sas driver I
> >> need
> >> for my servers.
> >>
> >
> > Ah yes, that's a great call-out.  I'm not sure what the plan is there
> > (or
> > if there is one), but to me it seems like the sort of thing a SIG would
> > build.
>
> Brendan, can you clarify the following points?
>

I'll take a stab at it, though I'll note Josh Boyer has already provided a
few answers to similar questions...


> - are you going to keep stable ABI between Stream kernel releases, or
> should we expect each kernel to break 3rd party drivers/modules?
>

All our kernel changes are implemented against the kernel ABI- there is no
point in time during release development when we have interim changes in
the kernel that ignore the symbols in the whitelist.  So basically if your
experience of going from one minor release to another has been smooth, the
incremental kernels between those two releases would also tend to run
smooth, assuming whatever motions happen with the 3rd party drivers/modules
behind the scenes continue to happen (for example, rebuilding from source).


> - what/how many synchronization points are going to be with RHEL
> releases?
>

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question correctly, could you restate?
I don't want to hit you with detailed process information only to find out
I'm answering the wrong question!


> - what about security updates? Will they be released *before* the
> corresponding RHEL secure patch, or should we expect the (slow) current
> update cadency?
>

RHEL development prioritizes CVE resolution in support streams, followed by
current release update streams.


> - is an upgrade path from Stream-8 to Stream-9 planned, or the usual
> "total server rebuild" will be necessary?
>

Upgrades are important.  We continue to invest in the major release upgrade
tooling introduced with the launch of RHEL 8.

Full disclosure: the main CentOS point was to be 100% compatible, down
> to the specific kernel used, with RHEL. To get that, we lived with: a)
> comparatively few packages, b) not-working yum security-only updates and
> c) very restrictive selinux policies.
>
> I am heavily invested in CentOS/RHEL ecosystem and I opened many bug
> reports/enhancement requests in the past years, so I would really like
> to continue using CentOS. However, using Stream seems to removing the
> key selling point (ie: total RHEL compatibility) without clear benefit.
>

Thanks for the bug reports :-)  I hear you on RHEL compatibility.  With my
OS developer hat on I think CentOS Stream will be more RHEL compatible, but
if I put on my old dusty ops hat I can understand why it might not look
that way right now.

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Thomas Bendler]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 7:19 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> [...]
> In the cases where RHEL + 0.1 (note not +1) won't work, I think it's
> incredibly likely that this will be covered by the expanded low- and
> no-cost
> RHEL offerings.
>
> Part of the buried lede here is that with more RHEL accessibility, a lot of
> the function that CentOS served for users will not be necessary anymore.
> [...]


If RH plans to release a successor for CentOS 8 like RHEL 8 Free or so,
this has become a communication disaster par excellence. The announcement
with all the associated uncertainties and criticism was already picked up
by the major press. I've no clue who is in charge of RH for the
communication, but the team was quite bad in their job.

If I plan something like this I would say, listen, CentOS will be released
as Stream only in the future but the deprecated CentOS versions will be
replaced by X. Before we do this change we'll provide to you a script that
transforms your current CentOS installation into the designated successor.
I'm quite relaxed as I don't use CentOS anymore except for private stuff.
But I can fully understand those who already upgraded to C8 with the
assumption in mind that they can use CentOS for the next few years with the
expected behaviour.

Changes are part of the IT and maybe the situation won't become as dramatic
as the one or other may fear (especially if a kind of RHEL 8 Free will be
released), but the communication around this change is a perfect example
how you shouldn't do the communication.

Kind regards Thomas
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Sergio Belkin]

El jue, 10 dic 2020 a las 9:39, Steve Thompson ()
escribió:

> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Joshua Kramer wrote:
>
> > It can, however, be mitigated if RedHat backtracks, admits their
> > mistake, and affirmatively commits to support future CentOS point
> > releases.  I'll be interested to see how this turns out.
>
> It may already be too late. Even if RedHat says "my bad" and goes back on
> this decision, not many will trust them in the future.
>
> Steve
> --
>
> 
> Steve Thompson E-mail:  smt AT vgersoft DOT com
> Voyager Software LLC   Web: http://www DOT vgersoft DOT
> com
> 3901 N Charles St  VSW Support: support AT vgersoft DOT com
> Baltimore MD 21218
>"186,282 miles per second: it's not just a good idea, it's the law"
>
> 
>
>
The funniest thing is Change Advocates that say: "Don't spread the FUD,
CentOS Stream will be quite stable!" and at same time state:

"If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you to
contact Red Hat about options."

https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=future-is-centos-stream


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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Lamar Owen]

On 12/9/20 9:37 PM, Akemi Yagi wrote:

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:07 PM Lamar Owen  wrote:


So, I want to address this part a bit.  In MANY cases, it's not a
third-party driver that ELrepo packages; it's an in-kernel driver that
Red Hat has decided to disable.  Such as the megaraid_sas driver I need
for my servers.

And just to give you some more examples -- ELRepo offers DUD (driver
update disk) images for the devices whose support has been dropped in
RHEL 8:

https://elrepo.org/linux/dud/el8/x86_64/



And those DUDs are very much appreciated.  That's how I got the install 
of C8 on those R710s in the first place, after all!


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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Gianluca Cecchi]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 3:29 PM Lamar Owen  wrote:

> On 12/9/20 9:37 PM, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:07 PM Lamar Owen  wrote:
> >
> >> So, I want to address this part a bit.  In MANY cases, it's not a
> >> third-party driver that ELrepo packages; it's an in-kernel driver that
> >> Red Hat has decided to disable.  Such as the megaraid_sas driver I need
> >> for my servers.
> > And just to give you some more examples -- ELRepo offers DUD (driver
> > update disk) images for the devices whose support has been dropped in
> > RHEL 8:
> >
> > https://elrepo.org/linux/dud/el8/x86_64/
>
>
> And those DUDs are very much appreciated.  That's how I got the install
> of C8 on those R710s in the first place, after all!
>
>
Me too installing CentOS 8 as hypervisor on Dell M610 with oVirt 4.4.3 (not
possible to use it as ovirt-node-ng due to the missing kernel mode and
impossibility to inject DUD in oVirt NG Node): now upgrading to 8.3 using
kmod-megaraid_sas-07.714.04.00-1.el8_3.elrepo.x86_64
Thanks!

Gianluca
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Simon Matter]

> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 7:19 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> In the cases where RHEL + 0.1 (note not +1) won't work, I think it's
>> incredibly likely that this will be covered by the expanded low- and
>> no-cost
>> RHEL offerings.
>>
>> Part of the buried lede here is that with more RHEL accessibility, a lot
>> of
>> the function that CentOS served for users will not be necessary anymore.
>> [...]
>
>
> If RH plans to release a successor for CentOS 8 like RHEL 8 Free or so,
> this has become a communication disaster par excellence. The announcement
> with all the associated uncertainties and criticism was already picked up
> by the major press. I've no clue who is in charge of RH for the
> communication, but the team was quite bad in their job.
>
> If I plan something like this I would say, listen, CentOS will be released
> as Stream only in the future but the deprecated CentOS versions will be
> replaced by X. Before we do this change we'll provide to you a script that
> transforms your current CentOS installation into the designated successor.

Do you mean something like this?

https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos2ol.sh

> I'm quite relaxed as I don't use CentOS anymore except for private stuff.
> But I can fully understand those who already upgraded to C8 with the
> assumption in mind that they can use CentOS for the next few years with
> the
> expected behaviour.
>
> Changes are part of the IT and maybe the situation won't become as
> dramatic
> as the one or other may fear (especially if a kind of RHEL 8 Free will be
> released), but the communication around this change is a perfect example
> how you shouldn't do the communication.
>
> Kind regards Thomas
> --
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>


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Alessandro Baggi]

Il 08/12/20 17:17, Marc Balmer via CentOS ha scritto:

But we, the users, trusted you.  No we don't anymore.


This!

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Thomas Bendler]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 3:54 PM Simon Matter  wrote:

> [...]
> Do you mean something like this?
>
> https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos2ol.sh
> [...]


Haven't tried this one, but yes, this is from a principal point of view
what I mean.

Kind regards Thomas
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Alessandro Baggi]

Il 08/12/20 18:19, Marc Balmer via CentOS ha scritto:

Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as quite 
arrogant?

No and this is not started with the current discussion.
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[CentOS] Update path question in connection with CentOS Stream?

[Walter H.]

Hello,

when someone has installed a CentOS 7.1 in the past,

and did 'yum update' regularily, his/she got a CentOS 7.8 now without 
any reinstallation procedure or other complications;


when the same wanted to update to CentOS 8 he/she had to do a new install;

what happens to CentOS Stream?

when some is now installing CentOS Steam and will do

'dnf update' or 'yum update' regularily in the future,

what does he/she get till the "end"?

is this a rolling release like Win10 which doesn't need to be 
reinstalled now and in future?

(the fact that hardware can break is not the question)

Thanks,
Walter


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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Sergio Belkin]

El mar, 8 dic 2020 a las 13:44, Nicolas Kovacs ()
escribió:

> Le 08/12/2020 à 16:12, Johnny Hughes a écrit :
> > Another very good thing
> >
> > There is no longer a huge delay of a drop of 750 packages at once and a
> > delay of more than a month to get a new release.
> >
> > There will be on delay in stream .. it will be a constantly rolling
> > distribution .. updates will happen all the time with no 'big drop' at
> > point release time.
>
> When I read the first messages of this thread, I was quite concerned. But
> having read through your detailed explanations, let me state that I'm
> reassured.
>
> As a sysadmin, what I like about CentOS is that it's probably the most
> *boring*
> Linux distribution out there. Boring is good. No drama, no surprises. I
> know I
> can have yum-cron run once a day without Icinga suddenly sending me a
> tsunami
> of failure alerts and without clients calling me and yelling on the phone.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Niki
>
> --
> Microlinux - Solutions informatiques durables
> 7, place de l'église - 30730 Montpezat
> Site : https://www.microlinux.fr
> Blog : https://blog.microlinux.fr
> Mail : i...@microlinux.fr
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>

+1 But for some It centennials progress is about destroying the present.
Smoke as a Service.
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Re: [CentOS] Update path question in connection with CentOS Stream?

[Pete Biggs]

> when someone has installed a CentOS 7.1 in the past,
> 
> and did 'yum update' regularily, his/she got a CentOS 7.8 now without 
> any reinstallation procedure or other complications;
> 
> when the same wanted to update to CentOS 8 he/she had to do a new install;
> 
> what happens to CentOS Stream?
> 
> when some is now installing CentOS Steam and will do
> 
> 'dnf update' or 'yum update' regularily in the future,
> 
> what does he/she get till the "end"?
> 
> is this a rolling release like Win10 which doesn't need to be 
> reinstalled now and in future?
> (the fact that hardware can break is not the question)

Yes, you just continually get updates in 8-stream. There's no quantised
point releases. A fully updated 8-stream install is the equivalent of
the last point release of RHEL8 plus some other bits and those other
bits will accumulate over the 6 months and eventually form the next
point release.

You will continue to get updates in 8-stream until the last RHEL8 point
release (8.10) in 2024. It is unclear to me what will happen then -
will 8-stream remain dormant and get security fixes only? Will it be
removed completely (either deleted or put in vault)?  Will there be an
"upgrade" mechanism to get to 9-stream?

P.


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[CentOS] Current CentOS Stream already the downstream of the upcoming RH EL 8.4?

[Gianluca Cecchi]

RH EL 8.3 released at the end of October 2020.
Planned 8.4 would be at the end of April 2021.
Now that CentOS has bridged the gap with 8.3 + updates, can we tell that
what is going into Stream right now will begin to be the upcoming RH EL 8.4
and so that in the next five months we will get a real scenario of what is
planned up to 2024?

Thanks,
Gianluca
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Nikolaos Milas]

On 10/12/2020 2:39 μ.μ., Steve Thompson wrote:


On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Joshua Kramer wrote:


It can, however, be mitigated if RedHat backtracks, admits their
mistake, and affirmatively commits to support future CentOS point
releases.  I'll be interested to see how this turns out.


It may already be too late. Even if RedHat says "my bad" and goes back 
on this decision, not many will trust them in the future.


Even so, it's the least they are expected to do. Just say "OK, we are 
having our company planning, but our planning and operations are deeply 
affected by our community, so we cannot remain indifferent to their loud 
feedback; we shall support CentOS 8 as initially announced for its 
complete life-cycle and we guarantee that officially."


If they shut their ears to to the whole world, it's an even bigger mistake.

Nick

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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Frank Cox]

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 10:17:04 +0100
Nicolas Kovacs wrote:

> Le 09/12/2020 à 17:52, Frank Cox a écrit :
> > Is it necessary to create an Oracle account to do anything with Oracle Linux
> > that can't be done without creating an account?  In other words, does Oracle
> > Linux demand that you log into Oracle to complete an installation, update
> > that installation, install software from their epel-equivalent, or do any
> > other of the regular sysadmin activities that one would expect to be doing?
> > If I start installing Oracle Linux on my machines or my client's machines,
> > what benefit do I get by signing up for an Oracle account that I don't have
> > if I don't sign up for one?
> 
> https://twitter.com/microlinux_eu/status/1336962009338933248

The image posted at that link is so blurred out that I just can't manage to 
read it.  Is it just the part at the bottom that says "Free to use, free to 
download, free to update. Always." that I'm supposed to see or is there 
something more there?

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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 10/12/2020 à 17:18, Frank Cox a écrit :
> Is it just the part at the bottom that says "Free to use, free to download, 
> free to update. Always."

That's it. I know Oracle's history, but I think for Oracle Linux, they may be
much better than their reputation.

I'm currently fiddling around with it, and I like it very much. Plus there's a
nice script to turn an existing CentOS installation into an Oracle Linux system.

Cheers,

Niki

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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[mark]

On 12/9/20 9:32 AM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 1:41 AM Pete Biggs  wrote:


I think what a lot of people are concerned about is the rolling-release

aspect of this. There will be no definitive versioning of CentOS in the
future - all you will be able to say is "fully updated" and it won't be



As CentOS Stream grows, I expect many companies who sell hardware will
become active members of the community.

I expect them to leave. In the real world, we had EXTREMELY limited 
windows to update servers and workstations. To expect people to do daily 
updates is asking for management, as well as the users, to scream bloody 
murder. Most are *not* that technical, and will start blaming the update 
for something else not working, and management will hear *them*.


I was chased off RH after RH 9, when it went to pay for licenses (and I 
was "between positions"), and came back, because I *like* the RH 
architecture. but I'm considering ubuntu now.


mark
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Frank Cox]

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:21:43 +0100
Nicolas Kovacs wrote:

> Le 10/12/2020 à 17:18, Frank Cox a écrit :
> > Is it just the part at the bottom that says "Free to use, free to download,
> > free to update. Always."
> 
> That's it. I know Oracle's history, but I think for Oracle Linux, they may be
> much better than their reputation.
> 
> I'm currently fiddling around with it, and I like it very much. Plus there's a
> nice script to turn an existing CentOS installation into an Oracle Linux
> system.

Ok, thanks!  

I think I'll play with it in a Virtual Box installation and see what goes on.

It does look interesting.  It's just, you know... Oracle


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[mark]

On 12/9/20 11:15 AM, Neil Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 18:06, Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:


Hear! HEAR!

NOBODY asked.


OK.  We get it.  We all get it loud and clear.  You're pissed off.

There's two things you can do about that -
1)  accept reality and start making plans to deal with it, or
2) continue to whine and lash out at people who are probably feeling worse
about the situation than you are, in which case I have to question whether
you actually have the maturity to be able to administer a
single machine, let alone any kind of IT facility.


Cheers! (Relax, have a homebrew)
___


I see, so your response to WHY DIDN'T YOU POST HERE, AND EVEN LET 
EVERYONE KNOW THIS WAS BEING CONSIDERED?! is "sorry you're pissed, 
tough"... no apology for NOT WARNING US, no nothing.


"Community"? Obviously you left us behind.

mark
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Gianluca Cecchi]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 5:31 PM Frank Cox  wrote:

>
>
> Ok, thanks!
>
> I think I'll play with it in a Virtual Box installation and see what goes
> on.
>
> It does look interesting.  It's just, you know... Oracle
>
>
>
But also Virtual Box is just, you know... Oracle...  ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist

Gianluca
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Re: [CentOS] [EXT] Re: https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[mark]

On 12/9/20 1:11 PM, Tom Bishop wrote:

Well looks like the jokes have already started, some one from work sent
this to me this morning - https://centos.rip/

No association etc not sure who etc...
___


ROTFLMAO!

Reminds me of when Anderson Consulting, now Accenture, was going start a 
spin-off in Europe called Monday Morning... but disgruntled ex-employees 
got the domain name before they did (they announced before getting the 
domain name), and the ex-employees had two fingers dancing on a desk, 
singing "we got your name, we got your name"


mark
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Re: [CentOS] Update path question in connection with CentOS Stream?

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 16:51 schrieb Pete Biggs:



when someone has installed a CentOS 7.1 in the past,

and did 'yum update' regularily, his/she got a CentOS 7.8 now without
any reinstallation procedure or other complications;

when the same wanted to update to CentOS 8 he/she had to do a new install;

what happens to CentOS Stream?

when some is now installing CentOS Steam and will do

'dnf update' or 'yum update' regularily in the future,

what does he/she get till the "end"?

is this a rolling release like Win10 which doesn't need to be
reinstalled now and in future?
(the fact that hardware can break is not the question)


Yes, you just continually get updates in 8-stream. There's no quantised
point releases. A fully updated 8-stream install is the equivalent of
the last point release of RHEL8 plus some other bits and those other
bits will accumulate over the 6 months and eventually form the next
point release.

You will continue to get updates in 8-stream until the last RHEL8 point
release (8.10) in 2024. It is unclear to me what will happen then -
will 8-stream remain dormant and get security fixes only? 



No.

https://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-devel/2020-December/075532.html



Will it be removed completely (either deleted or put in vault)?


Retired+Vault:

https://centos.org/distro-faq/#q13-can-i-start-up-a-sig-that-will-maintain-centos-stream-8-after-rhel8-reaches-the-end-of-full-support




Will there be an "upgrade" mechanism to get to 9-stream?


C9S will be based on ~F34. Someone mentioned a path elsewhere.

https://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2020-December/352366.html


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[me]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Johnny Hughes wrote:


On 12/9/20 8:54 AM, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC
(USA) via CentOS wrote:

On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes 
mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.

If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the issues in this 
thread may be easy to address.  However, the question is whether it is really
"That will become"
or actually
"That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"

I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will updates that 
have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL, end up in CentOS 
Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be superseded in Stream by corrected 
ones, before they're in RHEL.

In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each package's 
update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the CentOS Stream update 
based on that list?



There is one source for the source code that will be used.  While in
stream it will iterative (the push a bunch of changes today .. the build
those change today).  Those go through a CI process and get released
into stream.

When it comes time to build rhel 8.4 it will come from the same source code.


So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling release
and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?

To put it another way all of the stability we are used to will be gone and in
order to stay up to date with stream I could potentially need to reboot machines
daily depending on what packages $REDHAT developer decides to work on that day.

Am I missing something?

Regards,

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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Frank Cox]

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:34:55 +0100
Gianluca Cecchi wrote:

> But also Virtual Box is just, you know... Oracle...  ;-)
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist

Yeah, I was thinking exactly that when I typed that sentence, too.  :)

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS]

> On Dec 10, 2020, at 11:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> 
> So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling 
> release
> and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?

That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream 
updates the moment they become available.  But I still don't see why nearly no 
one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to tag all 
the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only those from 
Stream once the RHEL release is ready?

Noam
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:02 PM Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393)
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS  wrote:

> > On Dec 10, 2020, at 11:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> >
> > So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
> release
> > and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?
>
> That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> updates the moment they become available.  But I still don't see why nearly
> no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to
> tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?
>


That's called CentOS  8, and it's been killed.


-- 

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(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 11:50:00AM -0500, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
> release and we will never know what we are really running. Is this
> correct?

No, this is not the case. There will be continuous updates, but all of these
updates are ones that are planned to go into a RHEL minor release, with all
of the normal things that will imply. As Brendan said, .y stream development
is really not all that exciting.

> To put it another way all of the stability we are used to will be gone and
> in order to stay up to date with stream I could potentially need to reboot
> machines daily depending on what packages $REDHAT developer decides to
> work on that day.

I mean, if there are updates you want that day, sure?

-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why nearly
> no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to
> tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?

Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for their
deployment in a large-scale academic setting.

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:09 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL
> (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> > That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> > updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why
> nearly
> > no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated)
> to
> > tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> > those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?
>
> Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> their
> deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
>
>
Do you not see the huge irony here?

Why should a sysadmin have to do this?

We shouldn't.

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Victor Pereira]

I agree with you matt, the community should be listened to, it is not
possible that it is the decision of a few for something, it is that CentOS is
part of the OpenSource ecosystem.

Regards,

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 1:27 PM Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 11:19 AM Marc Balmer via CentOS 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > Am 09.12.2020 um 17:15 schrieb Neil Thompson :
> > >
> > > On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 18:06, Phelps, Matthew 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hear! HEAR!
> > >>
> > >> NOBODY asked.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > OK.  We get it.  We all get it loud and clear.  You're pissed off.
> > >
> > > There's two things you can do about that -
> > > 1)  accept reality and start making plans to deal with it, or
> > > 2) continue to whine and lash out at people who are probably feeling
> > worse
> > > about the situation than you are, in which case I have to question
> > whether
> > > you actually have the maturity to be able to administer a
> > > single machine, let alone any kind of IT facility.
> >
> > I think it is nonetheless not needed to start insulting people.
> >
> > We should try to keep the discussion friendly and technical.
> > ___
> >
>
> Thanks Mark. We were told that the RedHat folks that matter (maybe) are
> monitoring this list, so I'm sorry if other folks here don't want to hear
> it, but I'm not going to stop. I feel I am speaking for many, many others
> also.
>
> We *are* a community, and we should be heard.
>
> --
>
> *Matt Phelps*
>
> *Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*
>
> (Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)
>
> Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian
>
>
> 60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
> email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu
>
>
> cfa.harvard.edu | Facebook  | Twitter
>  | YouTube  >
> | Newsletter 
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>


-- 
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:11:51PM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> > their deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
> >
> Do you not see the huge irony here?
> Why should a sysadmin have to do this?
> We shouldn't.

Well, I don't think you have to. But it's open source and it's cool that you
*can* do things like this if you want to.


-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Tom Bishop]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 11:09 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL
> (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> > That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> > updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why
> nearly
> > no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated)
> to
> > tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> > those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?
>
> Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> their
> deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
> ___
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SMH, really lets jump through hoops based on an arbitrary decision made by
somebody or somone, who really knows since no one has said how the decision
was reached. I'm pretty sure that most are just going to pack up and find
another home, if I have to spend time doing something i'd rather it be
permanent vs who knows what decision is going to be made next by RH.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[H]

On December 10, 2020 11:08:50 AM EST, Nikolaos Milas  wrote:
>On 10/12/2020 2:39 μ.μ., Steve Thompson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Joshua Kramer wrote:
>>
>>> It can, however, be mitigated if RedHat backtracks, admits their
>>> mistake, and affirmatively commits to support future CentOS point
>>> releases.  I'll be interested to see how this turns out.
>>
>> It may already be too late. Even if RedHat says "my bad" and goes
>back 
>> on this decision, not many will trust them in the future.
>
>Even so, it's the least they are expected to do. Just say "OK, we are 
>having our company planning, but our planning and operations are deeply
>
>affected by our community, so we cannot remain indifferent to their
>loud 
>feedback; we shall support CentOS 8 as initially announced for its 
>complete life-cycle and we guarantee that officially."
>
>If they shut their ears to to the whole world, it's an even bigger
>mistake.
>
>Nick
>
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This might be interesting to read ”You're Only As Good As Your Worst Day” on 
Farnam Street blog https://fs.blog/2020/12/worst-day/
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Konstantin Boyandin via CentOS]

On 10.12.2020 23:18, Frank Cox wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 10:17:04 +0100
> Nicolas Kovacs wrote:
> 
>> Le 09/12/2020 à 17:52, Frank Cox a écrit :
>>> Is it necessary to create an Oracle account to do anything with Oracle
 Linux
>>> that can't be done without creating an account?  In other words, does
 Oracle
>>> Linux demand that you log into Oracle to complete an installation [...]
>>
>> https://twitter.com/microlinux_eu/status/1336962009338933248
> 
> The image posted at that link is so blurred out that I just can't manage
 to read it.  Is it just the part at the bottom that says "Free to use, free
 to download, free to update. Always." that I'm supposed to see or is there
 something more there?

I am afraid it's beyond Oracle's power to plan for "always". Such 
promises are so easily broken.

Alternately, they should provide local definition of "always" somewhere 
below, in small print.
-- 
Sincerely,

Konstantin Boyandin
system administrator (ProWide Labs Ltd. - IPHost Network Monitor)
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:20 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:11:51PM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > > Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> > > their deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
> > >
> > Do you not see the huge irony here?
> > Why should a sysadmin have to do this?
> > We shouldn't.
>
> Well, I don't think you have to. But it's open source and it's cool that
> you
> *can* do things like this if you want to.
>
>
>
The blindness is absolutely amazing.

We don't look at this as a fun little project we can endlessly dick around
with. The *vast* majority of CenOS installations are on
servers/workstations in large *enterprises*. That's what the "E" in RHEL
stands for. Remember?.

This is why we don't use your Fedora. It's too unstable. And the lifetime
is *way* too short.

We need a stable operating system.  We had one. We no longer do because of
what your company did to us. And we can't afford $300+ per machine.

I respectfully request that you keep that in mind when discussing things in
the CenOS list. Your viewpoint is from the Fedora side.



> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phil Perry]

On 10/12/2020 17:20, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:11:51PM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
their deployment in a large-scale academic setting.


Do you not see the huge irony here?
Why should a sysadmin have to do this?
We shouldn't.


Well, I don't think you have to. But it's open source and it's cool that you
*can* do things like this if you want to.




LOL, did you do that deliberately or did you honestly not get what 
Matthew (Phelps) was saying?


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Re: [CentOS] Future of CentosPlus?

[Akemi Yagi]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 4:12 AM Gerhard Schneider  
wrote:
>
>
> Is there anything known about the future of CentosPlus after moving to a
> Pre-RHEL CentOS Stream?
>
> It would be of no interest to RedHat..
>
> Gerhard Schneider

As the maintainer of the plus kernel for the last 10+ years, I'd like
to know the answer ...

Akemi
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Victor Pereira]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 8:52 PM Joshua Kramer 
wrote:

> Hello All-
>
> After reading and digesting a ton of community chatter about the
> recent CentOS announcement I've come to the conclusion that there's a
> lot of good about this, but there are also a lot of concerns that are
> being ignored.  And nobody so far has stared directly into the eyes of
> the elephant in the room.  So here goes.
>
> The Good: From a technical perspective- both in the sense of "getting
> newer software" and "technical community being more involved in
> bugfixes, etc"- having *a version* of CentOS called "AppStream" is
> fantastic. The various RedHat and CentOS folks who have been extolling
> these virtues in blog posts and twitter feeds are right-on.  But from
> responses I've seen, it appears to me that they think that these
> virtues are enough to completely gloss over the complete and utter
> clusterfrackas they've caused.
>
> The Bad: No point releases.  There is POSITIVELY NO* REASON that they
> can't have AppSream and still do point releases.  Brand new stuff
> would go into AppStream, at some point they do a point release of
> RHEL, then follow the normal CentOS procedure to spin a CentOS build
> of that point release.  This is already a tried and true process.  It
> will cost RedHat all of what, low five digits (if that) in developer
> salary to do this.  Heck I'm sure some volunteers would step up to use
> the existing infrastructure if RedHat didn't want to spend any paid
> developer time on this.
>
> The Ugly: I denoted "NO* REASON" above because there actually *are*
> reasons that we are not privy to.
> https://twitter.com/JoshuaPKr/status/1336744681716244480  Since RedHat
> is not being transparent with this, we are forced to speculate and
> remain bewildered at why they would make a decision that is going to
> cost them so much in the long run.  The most common (and most likely)
> theory is that some MBA somewhere in middle management saw all of this
> CentOS being used in production environments (and otherwise downloaded
> for free), and had the idea that if CentOS had its head cut off people
> would just buy RHEL subscriptions.
>
> That may happen in a few cases, but for the most part, that is NOT
> what is going to happen.  By handling the CentOS situation in this
> way, RedHat has branded itself as a company that acts in bad faith. If
> a company acts in bad faith towards a community where non-monetary
> value is exchanged, WHY would you trust that company to hold up its
> obligations for contracts that are actually paid?  People are going to
> do whatever they can to get away from RedHat.  Debian, Ubuntu, SuSE
> will all benefit from this.  Even in cases where non-profits and other
> similar clients "contact RedHat about options because Stream won't
> meet their needs"- why would such entities have ANY reason to trust
> anything that RedHat says to them?
>
> There have been hundreds of other messages that describe exactly what
> RedHat loses in this deal so I won't go into that here.  But branding
> oneself as a "bad faith actor" is usually a terrible way to try to
> pick up a little bit of subscription revenue.  In the end it's going
> to be a losing scenario.  This is an absolutely UNMITIGATED DISASTER
> from a marketing and community goodwill standpoint.
>
> It can, however, be mitigated if RedHat backtracks, admits their
> mistake, and affirmatively commits to support future CentOS point
> releases.  I'll be interested to see how this turns out.
>
> --JK
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My first impression when I read the news was that some MBA had made the
decision and I decided to find out if there were Red Hat developers
Unemployed ... :-), which would give me light that it was a decision made
at the point of excel spreadsheets.

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[CentOS] 8-stream dnf overly verbose

[Pete Biggs]

In moving a test machine from 8.3 to 8-stream the main thing I've
noticed is that dnf has become very verbose. It's as if someone has
turned on the -v permanently.

I've tried using '-q' (it says nothing then) and I've tried adjusting
the debuglevel, but nothing seems to affect it.  I get things like
this:

Downloading: 
http://mirrorlist.centos.org/?release=8-stream&arch=x86_64&repo=BaseOS&infra=stock
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/repomd.xml|
   0  B --:-- ETA
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/c2f9210df3e5c24d45228e360eb1f405367c1286d36ec91bf930abb944e3ac44-primary.xml.gz
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/b412debc52ee7c094b8de2c57a0d6d8827828154a6cd0e1995d588273028a4fe-filelists.xml.gz
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/6cd252c469b0dd0c67bc8d8b4ab2df44fb24de52c93decdfe7acc77b97361490-comps-BaseOS.x86_64.xml.xz
CentOS Stream 8 - BaseOS
 13 MB/s | 2.3 M

For every repo when there's nothing cached. It never used to do this.
How can I turn off the "Downloading:" messages?

P.


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Japheth Cleaver]

On 12/10/2020 9:08 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 11:50:00AM -0500, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:

So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
release and we will never know what we are really running. Is this
correct?

No, this is not the case. There will be continuous updates, but all of these
updates are ones that are planned to go into a RHEL minor release, with all
of the normal things that will imply. As Brendan said, .y stream development
is really not all that exciting.


"[W]e’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat 
Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just/ahead/of a 
current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end 
at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as 
the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux It 
gives the CentOS contributor community a great deal of influence in the 
future of RHEL."



Someone (or several someones) at RedHat is/are very confused.

As I wrote elsewhere, CentOS Whatever cannot be both upstream and 
downstream of RHEL and serve both roles adequately. If CentOS Stream 
remains just a CR/Early Access for updates that have passed all 
decision-making and QA processes and are well on their way to the 
upcoming RHEL point release, then there's no real input that can be had 
here, and there also appears to be no change from what CentOS Stream has 
been for this entire EL8 cycle.


If so, then the "great deal of influence" and "development/upstream 
branch" is meaningless drivel and the death of CentOS Linux (the 
rebuild) needs to be considered on its own merits as a distinct act by 
RedHat without distraction.


A true "Enterprise Upstream" distinct from Fedora, where the community 
has a snowball's chance at preventing laptop-focused Fedora-isms from 
destabilizing the core, is a niche begging to be filled. But that's not 
what's being presented to us, and telling SIGs to poke around on Stream 
instead of Linux does nothing for the vast majority of use cases 
external to RedHat.


If the decision-makers (not the CentOS board, clearly) are being 
presented these responses then they should realize that the community 
expects a real post-mortem and explanation here.


-jc

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 18:02 schrieb Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS:

On Dec 10, 2020, at 11:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:

So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling release
and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?


That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream 
updates the moment they become available.  But I still don't see why nearly no 
one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to tag all 
the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only those from 
Stream once the RHEL release is ready?




Evaluating all the fragmented informations (another topic; communication 
to community) I get the impression that CXStream will never have a state
that reflects RHEL point releases (not 100%). Why? Well CVE are one 
reason and another will be the different parts that are moving 
differently forward and the late parts (CVE coming after RHEL release) 
and so on ...


--
Leon

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 18:09 schrieb Matthew Miller:

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:

That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why nearly
no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to
tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?


Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for their
deployment in a large-scale academic setting.



Will we know that point in time everytime before releasing? Because on 
release day the Stream repo is already a step forward. Albeit when this

works then the situation are more worse then with CentOS Linux release
work and the time shift compared to RHEL release. Why? Because 6 month 
updates are accumulated and not installed? Even cherry-picking is crazy.
The audience here needs something different - but this was already 
stated elsewhere!


--
Leon




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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Gionatan Danti]

Il 2020-12-10 18:40 Brendan Conoboy ha scritto:

Hey, you dropped Centos-devel from your reply.  I'll assume that was
intentional, but if it wasn't feel free to quote any of this back
there.


Hi Brendan, no, it was not intentional - I replied from the smartphone 
and I accidentally dropped the centos-devel list. I'll reply quoting the 
entire conversation to let others read your useful information.



On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:26 AM Gionatan Danti 
wrote:


Il 2020-12-10 14:35 Brendan Conoboy ha scritto:

- are you going to keep stable ABI between Stream kernel

releases,

or
should we expect each kernel to break 3rd party drivers/modules?


All our kernel changes are implemented against the kernel ABI-

there

is no point in time during release development when we have

interim

changes in the kernel that ignore the symbols in the whitelist.

So

basically if your experience of going from one minor release to
another has been smooth, the incremental kernels between those two
releases would also tend to run smooth, assuming whatever motions
happen with the 3rd party drivers/modules behind the scenes

continue

to happen (for example, rebuilding from source).


Let's forget about minor release upgrades and focus on the
incremental
kernel updates between point releases for a moment. Can we expect a
stable kernel ABI for these releases, or should we expect breaking
changes? In other words, should 3rd party kmod be constantly updated
for
*any* kernel released on the Stream channel, or can we expect them
to
keep working until a "next-release" kernel appears?

Regarding symbol whitelist, I understand it as related to a single
minor
releases - ie: all kernels of 8.3 branch will obey it, but this can
be
false for kernel on, say, 8.4

Am I missing something?


I think it's a question of nuance.  In broad strokes we don't break
the kernel ABI as outlined by the whitelist starting with the first
major release.  In fact, taht whitelist grows throughout the life of
the release, making the ABI more predictable.  The problem you've
likely experienced is that loadable kernel modules have access to
symbols not included in the whitelist.  Whether we're pushing new code
upstream or backporting new code from upstream, we endeavor to keep
symbols the same, even if they aren't on the whitelist.  But if for
strong technical reasons it's better to change a symbol, that will
happen upstream, and if it wasn't part of our whitelist, it can happen
in RHEL as well.  Usually these changes only require minor updates in
the loadable kernel modules, but for an end user this is the
difference between a module loading or not loading, so the impact is
glaring.

I'm not sure how things will take shape with CentOS Stream and
external drivers, whether some gating activity wil elrepo will hold
back kernel updates until elrepo is updated, or if a SIG will form, or
some other thing.  All I can say for sure is that when you have a
group of people with common problems, they will create solutions, and
we want those solutions for CentOS Stream.  So we'll work it out, I'm
just not sure how yet (kABI isn't my focus, I'm simply familiar with
the dynamics because I was the overall RHEL 8 development lead).


- what/how many synchronization points are going to be with RHEL
releases?


I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question correctly, could you
restate?  I don't want to hit you with detailed process

information

only to find out I'm answering the wrong question!


With Stream, all is going to change constantly. We will have any
"sync
point" where Stream is 100% identical to a specific RHEL point
release?


OK, I understand now, thanks!  I don't think there will be a point
where a RHEL minor release compose will be NVR identical to a CentOS
Stream compose, though they will be pretty close.  The reason for this
is that there is a period of time where we're working on 2 RHEL
releases at once: The one that is about to release, and the one that
will follow.  CentOS Stream, I believe, will follow the source tree of
"the one that will follow."  All the same fixes will be there, but
CentOS Stream will also get additional fixes and features not included
in the near term RHEL release.


Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Regards.


I appreciate the questions!  Regards,


Thank you for the clear replies.
Regards.

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Re: [CentOS] 8-stream dnf overly verbose

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 18:53 schrieb Pete Biggs:


In moving a test machine from 8.3 to 8-stream the main thing I've
noticed is that dnf has become very verbose. It's as if someone has
turned on the -v permanently.

I've tried using '-q' (it says nothing then) and I've tried adjusting
the debuglevel, but nothing seems to affect it.  I get things like
this:

Downloading: 
http://mirrorlist.centos.org/?release=8-stream&arch=x86_64&repo=BaseOS&infra=stock
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/repomd.xml|
   0  B --:-- ETA
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/c2f9210df3e5c24d45228e360eb1f405367c1286d36ec91bf930abb944e3ac44-primary.xml.gz
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/b412debc52ee7c094b8de2c57a0d6d8827828154a6cd0e1995d588273028a4fe-filelists.xml.gz
Downloading: 
http://mirror.cov.ukservers.com/centos/8-stream/BaseOS/x86_64/os/repodata/6cd252c469b0dd0c67bc8d8b4ab2df44fb24de52c93decdfe7acc77b97361490-comps-BaseOS.x86_64.xml.xz
CentOS Stream 8 - BaseOS
 13 MB/s | 2.3 M

For every repo when there's nothing cached. It never used to do this.
How can I turn off the "Downloading:" messages?

P.




Welcome to the testing branch.

Sorry
Leon

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Re: [CentOS] Future of CentosPlus?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/10/20 11:45 AM, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 4:12 AM Gerhard Schneider  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Is there anything known about the future of CentosPlus after moving to a
>> Pre-RHEL CentOS Stream?
>>
>> It would be of no interest to RedHat..
>>
>> Gerhard Schneider
> 
> As the maintainer of the plus kernel for the last 10+ years, I'd like
> to know the answer ...
> 

The CentOS Plus kernel is something we would like to continue to support
in CentOS Stream.

Kernels now in CentOS Stream are a manual affair because of secureboot.
 Akemi and I have a process for the other versions of CentOS that will
work perfectly in CentOS Stream at this time.

Infrastructure will be put in place for auto building kernels in the
future and CentOS Plus Kernel will be one of the things that will bw put
into place at that time along with other Stream kernels.

So, as long as Akemi wants to create the CentOSPlus kernel, it can be
part of Stream.

Thanks,
Johnny Hughes
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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Ljubomir Ljubojevic]

On 12/10/20 5:28 PM, mark wrote:
> On 12/9/20 9:32 AM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 1:41 AM Pete Biggs  wrote:
>>
 I think what a lot of people are concerned about is the rolling-release
> aspect of this. There will be no definitive versioning of CentOS in
> the
> future - all you will be able to say is "fully updated" and it
> won't be
> 
>> As CentOS Stream grows, I expect many companies who sell hardware will
>> become active members of the community.
>>
> I expect them to leave. In the real world, we had EXTREMELY limited
> windows to update servers and workstations. To expect people to do daily
> updates is asking for management, as well as the users, to scream bloody
> murder. Most are *not* that technical, and will start blaming the update
> for something else not working, and management will hear *them*.
> 
> I was chased off RH after RH 9, when it went to pay for licenses (and I
> was "between positions"), and came back, because I *like* the RH
> architecture. but I'm considering ubuntu now.

There is Springdale RHEL clone made by Princeton University...

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Re: [CentOS] Moving to CentOS 8 Stream

[Kienker, Fred]

"It takes years to build a reputation and seconds to destroy it."

-- Business 101 class


Best regards, 
Fred
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Ljubomir Ljubojevic]

On 12/10/20 5:50 PM, Frank Cox wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:34:55 +0100
> Gianluca Cecchi wrote:
> 
>> But also Virtual Box is just, you know... Oracle...  ;-)
>>
>> Sorry, I couldn't resist
> 
> Yeah, I was thinking exactly that when I typed that sentence, too.  :)
> 

There is always Springdale Linux made by Princeton University:
https://puias.math.ias.edu/

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(Love is in the Air)
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[CentOS] Announcing Open-sourced & Community-Driven RHEL Fork by CloudLinux

[Ljubomir Ljubojevic]

Someone is smarter then Red Hat/IBM, "Carpe Diem":

Announcing Open-sourced & Community-Driven RHEL Fork by CloudLinux

(https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel-fork-by-cloudlinux)

CentOS is a fork of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and undoubtedly a
popular choice to deploy on production servers because of its rock-solid
stability and compatibility. But, now with CentOS Stream, Red Hat just
killed CentOS as we know it. And as expected, people started to fork Red
Hat to give a viable community-based alternative to RHEL.



As we already maintain CloudLinux OS, we plan to release a free,
open-sourced, community-driven, 1:1 binary compatible fork of RHEL® 8
(and future releases) in the Q1 of 2021. We will create a separate,
totally free OS that is fully binary compatible with RHEL® 8 (and future
versions). We will sponsor the development & maintenance of such OS. We
will work on establishing a community around the OS, with the governing
board from members of the community.


Why We Are Doing It

We have all the infrastructure, software and experience to do that
already. We have a large staff of developers and maintainers that have a
decade of experience in building an RHEL fork, starting from RHEL5 to RHEL8.
We expect that this project will put us on the map, and allow people
to discover our rebootless update software and Extended Lifecycle
Support offering.



What Will We Do To Make Sure That It Doesn't Go Wrong

We plan to make all the build and test software free, open-sourced, easy
to set up, so if we ever go in the wrong direction - the community can
just pick up where we left off.


What It Means For You

If you are running CloudLinux OS 8 - it will continue to have stable and
well-tested updates until 2029, and ELS releases for years after that.



If you are running CentOS 8 - we will release an OS very similar to
CentOS 8 based on RHEL 8 stable. We will provide stable and well-tested
updates until 2029 - completely free. You will be able to convert from
CentOS 8 at any moment by running a single command that switches
repositories & keys.


Timeline

Q1 2021


-- 
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
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Re: [CentOS] Moving to CentOS 8 Stream

[Sergio Belkin]

El jue, 10 dic 2020 a las 15:48, Kienker, Fred ()
escribió:

> "It takes years to build a reputation and seconds to destroy it."
>
> -- Business 101 class
>
>
Fear not in DEVops world you can rebuild your reputation in one seconds
using containers.  :-P


-- 
--
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LPIC-2 Certified - http://www.lpi.org
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Re: [CentOS] Announcing Open-sourced & Community-Driven RHEL Fork by CloudLinux

[Tom Bishop]

+1
Looks like between Springdale, Rocky and CloudLinux there will be options.
Such a bad decision that RH made to do this...

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020, 1:05 PM Ljubomir Ljubojevic  wrote:

> Someone is smarter then Red Hat/IBM, "Carpe Diem":
>
> Announcing Open-sourced & Community-Driven RHEL Fork by CloudLinux
>
> (
> https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel-fork-by-cloudlinux
> )
>
> CentOS is a fork of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and undoubtedly a
> popular choice to deploy on production servers because of its rock-solid
> stability and compatibility. But, now with CentOS Stream, Red Hat just
> killed CentOS as we know it. And as expected, people started to fork Red
> Hat to give a viable community-based alternative to RHEL.
>
>
>
> As we already maintain CloudLinux OS, we plan to release a free,
> open-sourced, community-driven, 1:1 binary compatible fork of RHEL® 8
> (and future releases) in the Q1 of 2021. We will create a separate,
> totally free OS that is fully binary compatible with RHEL® 8 (and future
> versions). We will sponsor the development & maintenance of such OS. We
> will work on establishing a community around the OS, with the governing
> board from members of the community.
>
>
> Why We Are Doing It
>
> We have all the infrastructure, software and experience to do that
> already. We have a large staff of developers and maintainers that have a
> decade of experience in building an RHEL fork, starting from RHEL5 to
> RHEL8.
> We expect that this project will put us on the map, and allow people
> to discover our rebootless update software and Extended Lifecycle
> Support offering.
>
>
>
> What Will We Do To Make Sure That It Doesn't Go Wrong
>
> We plan to make all the build and test software free, open-sourced, easy
> to set up, so if we ever go in the wrong direction - the community can
> just pick up where we left off.
>
>
> What It Means For You
>
> If you are running CloudLinux OS 8 - it will continue to have stable and
> well-tested updates until 2029, and ELS releases for years after that.
>
>
>
> If you are running CentOS 8 - we will release an OS very similar to
> CentOS 8 based on RHEL 8 stable. We will provide stable and well-tested
> updates until 2029 - completely free. You will be able to convert from
> CentOS 8 at any moment by running a single command that switches
> repositories & keys.
>
>
> Timeline
>
> Q1 2021
>
>
> --
> Ljubomir Ljubojevic
> (Love is in the Air)
> PL Computers
> Serbia, Europe
>
> StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant
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>
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 10/12/2020 à 17:31, Frank Cox a écrit :
> I think I'll play with it in a Virtual Box installation and see what goes on.
> 
> It does look interesting.  It's just, you know... Oracle

On a side note, the migration script centos2ol.sh currently only works for
Oracle Linux 7. On a whim I sent a mail to the address found on the download
page and instantly got a reply from a guy with an @oracle.com mail address. I
asked some more questions, and he answered everything patiently.

tl;dr: an updated version of the centos2ol.sh script will be published very
soon, with support for CentOS 8 -> OL 8.

Cheers,

Niki

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Re: [CentOS] Current CentOS Stream already the downstream of the upcoming RH EL 8.4?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/10/20 10:01 AM, Gianluca Cecchi wrote:
> RH EL 8.3 released at the end of October 2020.
> Planned 8.4 would be at the end of April 2021.
> Now that CentOS has bridged the gap with 8.3 + updates, can we tell that
> what is going into Stream right now will begin to be the upcoming RH EL 8.4
> and so that in the next five months we will get a real scenario of what is
> planned up to 2024?
> 

Yes. That is the purpose.

It may not be EXACTLY what is in there now.  It will be what is in there
as it gets closer to release.

It may also take one more cycle for the RHEL Engineers to move all the
development over and for all the new infrastructure to be put into place.

But the idea is, at steady state with all in place .. what is in stream
will be in RHEL+0.1, yes.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/10/20 10:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> 
>> On 12/9/20 8:54 AM, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC
>> (USA) via CentOS wrote:
>>> On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes
>>> mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code +
>>> 0.1
>>>
>>> So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
>>> will become 8.4 in a few months.
>>>
>>> If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the
>>> issues in this thread may be easy to address.  However, the question
>>> is whether it is really
>>> "That will become"
>>> or actually
>>> "That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"
>>>
>>> I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will
>>> updates that have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL,
>>> end up in CentOS Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be
>>> superseded in Stream by corrected ones, before they're in RHEL.
>>>
>>> In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each
>>> package's update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the
>>> CentOS Stream update based on that list?
>>>
>>
>> There is one source for the source code that will be used.  While in
>> stream it will iterative (the push a bunch of changes today .. the build
>> those change today).  Those go through a CI process and get released
>> into stream.
>>
>> When it comes time to build rhel 8.4 it will come from the same source
>> code.
> 
> So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
> release
> and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?

You will be running CentOS Stream 8.

It is not a rolling release in the sense of .. it moves from Stream 8 to
Stream 9 .. it will be Stream 8 until you manually move to Stream 9 or
we get to the EOL (Currently May 31 2024).

> 
> To put it another way all of the stability we are used to will be gone
> and in
> order to stay up to date with stream I could potentially need to reboot
> machines
> daily depending on what packages $REDHAT developer decides to work on
> that day.

Well .. they will be working on the next RHEL point release.  So the
package will be from 8.4 if the current release is 8.3 and you are
running  CentOS Stream 8.


It would be from 9.2 if the current release was 9.1 and you were on
CentOS Stream 9.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 


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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 19:53 schrieb Ljubomir Ljubojevic:

On 12/10/20 5:50 PM, Frank Cox wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:34:55 +0100
Gianluca Cecchi wrote:


But also Virtual Box is just, you know... Oracle...  ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist


Yeah, I was thinking exactly that when I typed that sentence, too.  :)



There is always Springdale Linux made by Princeton University:
https://puias.math.ias.edu/



I did a conversion of a test webserver
from C8 to Springdale. It went smoothly.

--
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 02:47:09PM -0300, Victor Pereira wrote:
> My first impression when I read the news was that some MBA had made the
> decision and I decided to find out if there were Red Hat developers
> Unemployed ... :-), which would give me light that it was a decision made
> at the point of excel spreadsheets.

Yeah -- no one is unemployed. There really are not a lot of people working
on CentOS Stream or the rebuild, all told, and the part about wanting to
refocus all of the energy on Stream to make it successful is 100% true.



-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 Stream: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 10/12/2020 à 00:51, Joshua Kramer a écrit :
> After reading and digesting a ton of community chatter about the
> recent CentOS announcement I've come to the conclusion that there's a
> lot of good about this, but there are also a lot of concerns that are
> being ignored.

What Stream brings: surprises and excitement

What CentOS users want: boring and predictable

That pretty much sums it up.

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[CentOS] question centos stream 8 applying updates

[edward via CentOS]

after reading some info on centos stream is a  rolling release. i'm  
wondering applying


updates, upgrades to centos stream will use the same commands as before 
or something new?


thanks

edward

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Re: [CentOS] Moving to CentOS 8 Stream

[Konstantin Boyandin via CentOS]

On 11.12.2020 02:08, Sergio Belkin wrote:
> El jue, 10 dic 2020 a las 15:48, Kienker, Fred ()
> escribió:
> 
>> "It takes years to build a reputation and seconds to destroy it."
>>
>> -- Business 101 class
>>
>>
> Fear not in DEVops world you can rebuild your reputation in one seconds
> using containers.  :-P

Reputation as a Service (RepaaS)?

Let's see whether RH has proper containers.
-- 
Sincerely,

Konstantin Boyandin
system administrator (ProWide Labs Ltd. - IPHost Network Monitor)
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[CentOS] I'm looking forward to the future of CentOS Stream

[Gordon Messmer]

Personally, I think that changing focus on CentOS Stream is going to 
make CentOS (and maybe even RHEL) better in the same way and for the 
same reasons that Fedora is a better distribution than Red Hat Linux 
was.  CentOS Stream should fix the biggest problems that CentOS has had 
in the past, providing a reliable, free LTS distribution with community 
participation.


Having read the announcement, along with hundreds of reactions in blogs, 
forums, and mailing lists, I am of the opinion that all (or a reasonable 
approximation thereof) of the vocal concern is the result of the 
overloaded term "stable" as it applies to software distributions.  If we 
imagine a spectrum of individuals in which one end of the spectrum is 
individuals whose primary occupation is in release engineering for 
software distributions and the other end is individuals who primarily 
consume software distributions, I would expect that individuals on one 
end to mostly use the term "stable" in the sense of compatibility and 
semantic versioning, and the other end to use the same term in the sense 
of having fewer bugs.  The use of that word causes people at one end of 
the spectrum to infer a completely different message than people at the 
other end intend to communicate.


If we never use the ambiguous term "stable" and instead use the terms 
compatibility and reliability (the two common meanings of "stable" at 
different ends of the spectrum), I think that various aspects of CentOS 
Stream will be better than CentOS, or the same as CentOS.


With respect to compatibility:

I think most developers are familiar with semantic versioning.  Semantic 
versioning is used by some applications and libraries to indicate the 
nature and extent of changes.  The version is presented numerically as 
Major.Minor.Revision.  When new interfaces are added, the minor number 
is increased.  Those changes don’t affect backward compatibility.  When 
individual interfaces are changed or removed, the major number is 
increased.  Those changes aren’t backward compatible.  That allows 
consumers to infer that if an application is compatible with 8.1, then 
it is also compatible with 8.2 and later, but might not be compatible 
with 9.0.


Red Hat Enterprise Linux applies that concept to the entire software 
distribution, providing independent software vendors a convenient means 
of communicating their compatibility.  If they’ve tested their 
application on RHEL 8.2, then any RHEL 8 host patched to at least that 
release is expected to run the application.  Moreover, Red Hat will 
continue to publish security patches to each given minor release’s 
channel, allowing consumers to "pin" a host to a minor release.  Those 
hosts will not receive feature updates, but will mitigate vulnerabilities.


CentOS Stream isn’t going to feature minor releases, and isn’t going to 
provide semantic versioning of the distribution.  The same application 
that the vendor has validated on RHEL 8.2 will run on a fully patched 
CentOS Stream 8 host, but might not run on a host that isn’t fully 
patched.  On the surface, it appears that CentOS users will lose the 
convenience provided by semantic versioning.  I would simply point out 
that the CentOS developers have never supported running CentOS in any 
state other than fully patched.  They don’t publish security information 
in the package repositories, and they don’t support any means of pinning 
a host to a minor release.


For practical purposes, CentOS Stream will need to be fully patched for 
compatibility purposes, just like CentOS is, and will be equally suited 
for production purposes.


To put a really find point on that: Semantic versioning is only 
meaningful for hosts that are not fully patched.  A fully patched host 
is expected to be compatible with any application validated for that 
major release.


With respect to reliability:

Many of the people concerned about the change in focus refer to CentOS 
Stream as a "beta" for RHEL.  That is not how Red Hat or the CentOS 
maintainers describe CentOS Stream( anywhere that I've seen), and I 
think it ignores most of the development, testing, and distribution 
pipeline.


At the risk of oversimplifying that pipeline a whole lot, in the future 
Free Software will pass through several stages on the way to RHEL:


Stage 1: (Software Development) The majority of development and 
testing is done in individual upstream projects, outside of Red Hat.


Stage 2: (Release Development, aka Rawhide) The initial work to 
build and integrate individual packages with the rest of the software 
distribution is done in what is essentially a development branch of the 
software distribution.


Stage 3: (Stable[1], aka Fedora) Packages that have passed through 
review and QA are published for general use.  There is no minor release, 
as major releases occur every 6 months and are supported for only 13 
months, anyway.  Compatibility is maintained by prohibiting significant 
versi

Re: [CentOS] I'm looking forward to the future of CentOS Stream

[Konstantin Boyandin via CentOS]

On 11.12.2020 08:25, Gordon Messmer wrote:
[...]
> For practical purposes, CentOS Stream will need to be fully patched for 
> compatibility purposes, just like CentOS is, and will be equally suited 
> for production purposes.

Allow me to disagree. We both trust Chris Wright's words, don't we? CTO 
won't lie. Citing him:

"To be exact, CentOS Stream is an upstream development platform for 
ecosystem developers. It will be updated several times a day. This is 
not a production operating system."

[...]
> Based on the information available today, I expect CentOS to be a very 
> reliable, reasonably secure distribution of GNU/Linux with Long Term 
> Support.  And judging by Red Hat’s mention that Facebook’s internal 
> groups either are already using an internally curated OS built from 
> CentOS Stream, or will be using it soon, I think I’m not alone in 
> believing that.

I do not wish to argue with all your statements. Mostly they look 
reasonable. However, there's an unpredictable variable in this equation, 
namely RH.

The major problem here is the breach of trust. A year ago RH's CTO is 
singing charming songs that CentOS won't go, now we see an abrupt 
direction change. This time, CTO keeps silent (I wonder why).

Also, there's change in patterns. With CentOS, I reduce updates to 
minimal ones. That's significant: the management doesn't like the idea 
that updates can be applied daily, and glitches may happen at any 
moment. The management prefers the known devil.

With current CentOS life cycle the number of upgrades is typically 
small. And even if I reduce the number of CentOS Stream upgrades to 
minimal one, the base advantage of CentOS is lost: predictability. At 
any given moment I could be sure that it has the same quirks and bugs 
the matching RHEL has.

CentOS Stream has its advantages and use cases. The problem is, no one 
cared to estimate what use cases of majority of current CentOS users are.

Damn, RH could at least bring formal apologies for changing the promised 
lifecycle. Instead we see the typical marketing blah-blah-blah of how 
that would benefit everyone. Nothing shows better the actual RH attitude 
towards the CentOS community.

-- 
Sincerely,

Konstantin Boyandin
system administrator (ProWide Labs Ltd. - IPHost Network Monitor)
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Re: [CentOS] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Richard B. Pyne]

Look at Rocky Linux rockylinux.org It is set to become what CentOS was 
before it was sucked in by RH and sold to IBM, a Community Enterprise OS.


On 12/8/2020 8:15 AM, Pete Biggs wrote:


Forgive a bit of cynicism ...

On Tue, 2020-12-08 at 09:06 -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:

The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.


"If you want to keep using RHEL for free, you will have to put up with
making sure that our paying customers get better quality releases"



Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
the RHEL 7 life cycle.
https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates


"If you really want to have a stable release for free, stick to 7"



CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.


"CentOS will become the developer playground"


And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
distribution ecosystem.


Was there any confusion? If there is, then it's caused by the
introduction of things like "CentOS Stream".  There was never any
confusion when it was a straight rebuild.



When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
to contact Red Hat about options.


"If you want a production environment, pay for it"



We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
project focus might affect you.


The FAQ generally says "if you want a RHEL environment, then pay for
it"



[See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux]


Red Hat's perspective is "CentOS is ours now; IBM have told us to make
sure it's pulling its weight or we aren't allowed to put any resources
into it"

So as far as I can see all the RHEL rebuilds are dead now - WhiteBox,
Scientific Linux, now CentOS. Are there any left?

P.




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[CentOS] Have lost access to ZFS pools with latest CentOS 8 kernels

[Robert G. (Doc) Savage via CentOS]

With the release of the vmlinuz-4.18.0-240.x and vmlinuz-
4.18.0.193.19.x kernels, ZoL cannot connect with a ZFS pool. I'm not
100% sure, but I believe the last CentOS 8 kernel to work with ZFS
0.8.5 was 4.18.0.6.x.

Obviously CentOS does not support ZFS, so this means the ZoL folks must
find and fix the problem. Otherwise, I think Fedora 33 is the only
choice we have for hosting ZFS.

--Doc Savage
    Fairview Heights, IL
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