[Ayatana] Fwd: stop quick hide application top menu on top task bar

[Tadej Rosa]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add ayatana list to the recipients. Message below.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Tadej Rosa 
Date: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 18:27
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] stop quick hide application top menu on top task bar
To: Jo-Erlend Schinstad 


If I may interject; I really do want to have the menu visible at all times.
Granted, that's entirely subjective. What is not subjective is that you need
constantly visible menus in order to actually realize the primary reason for
having them at the top edge of the screen - easier acquisition with mouse.
Fitt's law is not the alpha and omega of usability (and only really makes
sense when the input device is a mouse), but it _was_ cited as one of, if
not THE reason for having the global menu bar, so why usability engineers at
Canonical chose to render it meaningless by hiding the menu is anyone's
guess. More importantly, I would imagine this to be especially annoying on a
touchscreen (I don't have any such devices around to test, though), even
though improving touch-based interaction was supposed to be a major goal of
Unity.

So please, would anyone care to explain how "visual clutter" overrides all
of these considerations? Since when are aesthetic reasons sufficient to
throw out genuine usability concerns? It's not like there is no debate on
this issue, clearly many people have strong feelings about this.

No offense meant to anyone, but this "feature" really does frustrate me,
moreso because I can't seem to find any genuine, thought-out arguments
against the drawbacks I mentioned in the first part of the post.

take care now,
TR



On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 16:51, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
joerlend.schins...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Den 18. okt. 2011 12:50, skrev charlesa...@gmail.com:
>
>> [snip]
>>
>> i guess, there's a lot to be done with this unity.
>>
>> if we're gonna copy mac osx/ios, at least we have to do it right this
>> time! :D
>>
>>
> Learning and copying are two radically different things. I really don't
> want to have the menus visible at all times. For most users, the menus are
> hardly ever used and when you use them, you don't need to read the title of
> the window. You also don't need to look at the menu when you read the title
> of a webpage. They're mutually exclusive, hence it makes sense to only
> display one at a time.
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] reduce the font and ui size!

[Tadej Rosa]

I feel I should point out that at least in my case, Windows 7 has, after a
fresh install, always defaulted to the "125% bigger" font preset. My monitor
is a 4:3 20in HP, 1600x1200. DPI as I recall is just about 100. I always
prefer to set the fonts to the default setting (100%), but it doesn't seem
to be the default. YMMV

For what it's worth- on my hardware I don't mind the default font and
padding size in Ubuntu, but on anything smaller than my laptop's 1400x1050 I
imagine it would become annoying pretty fast.

TR

2011/10/20 Tomasz Sałaciński 

> I've created such a comparsion.
>
> First label shows default monospace font in Windows and in Ubuntu (gedit).
>
> Second label (Setup is loading...) shows Windows interface font (setup
> program) compared to Ubuntu interface font (made in Glade).
>
> See how much Windows fonts are clearer and take a lot less space than
> Ubuntu fonts. 90% of computer users in the world don't have any problem with
> size that Windows uses (I think they spent a lot more money on research what
> font size they should be using) - let's say 10% of them change the size of
> the font. It still leaves 80% of world computer users satisfied (maybe more,
> not counting Macs) with the font we see in Windows. Even with a lot less
> userbase MORE Ubuntu users are complaining about font size.
>
> Imagine when reading a source code file in gedit you have to scroll every
> few lines.. then you have to find where you've left reading. It hurts your
> eyes and makes using of computer a simple pain in the backside.
>
> Of coure - Ubuntu 11 looks fancy. But users will do more than looking at
> the screenshots. If they see that the system is useless except for listening
> to music, watching videos and browsing Facebook - they just stick to using
> Windows. With such big fonts and additional padding, windows in Ubuntu are a
> lot bigger than in other systems. If this is by design, then the design is
> simply completely wrong. You can't satisfy all users, but you should try
> satisfying most user's needs, instead of personal preferences of the
> designers.
>
> W dniu 2011-10-20 15:00, Thibaut Brandscheid pisze:
>
>> 2011/10/17 Matthew Paul Thomas > >
>>
>>
>>
>>What would help here is for someone to make a screenshot comparison of
>>the same windows, laid out in exactly the same positions, on Ubuntu,
>>Windows, and OS X.
>>
>>
>>
>>We might find that the problem is partly font size, but partly also
>>size and padding of interface controls.
>>
>>
>>  Here are two similar images showing the file browser and text editor
>> in Windows 7 and Ubuntu Oneiric.
>>
>>  * Ubuntu 
>> 
>> >
>>  * Windows 7 
>> 
>> >
>>
>>
>> Padding (buttons) and font size are smaller and therefore the interface
>> looks & feels cleaner in Windows 7. Thats the reason why smaller windows
>> seems to be more useful in Windows than in Ubuntu (compared same sized
>> windows).
>>
>> Traditionally GNOME has a lot of padding (negative example → Totem
>> controls) and wasts a lot of screen space (has been reduced a bit last
>> cycles).
>>
>> So what to do?
>>
>>  * Analise every default application UI if they need that big buttons
>>and that much padding/margin
>>  o use the same padding/margin in every application if possible
>>  * Reduce padding and font size - just a bit → huge difference
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Thibaut
>>
>> PS: If anybody uses Ubuntu, Win & and Mac and could make more comparison
>> screenshots it would be awesome.
>> I use Windows only for gaming → my Wintendoo ;)
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Tomasz Sałaciński
>
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