Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 20. nov. 2011 21:38, skrev Luiz Felipe Talvik:

http://ubuntuone.com/1BAZfzHSzpHYCtfW5neY4U
http://ubuntuone.com/02CEbphUkex7mRqSdL5Yx7
I know Unity is aiming for simplicity, and is being inspired by newer 
OSes like android and iOS. But the work that people need 
to accomplish on the desktop is far more complex than what one does on 
a mobile.




I still don't understand. In the first mockup, you show a quicklist with 
three spreadsheets. Sure, that could be nice. Doing things like that is 
what dynamic quicklists are for. It's up to the application to choose 
what should be displayed in that list. Whether you want to display most 
popular items, most recent items or the current items, is up to you. The 
launcher doesn't care about that.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Omar B .]

I dont think those items are quicklists by right clicking. I think hes 
referring to a window list on mouse over (kinda how dockbar X does it, kde, 
etc. when app windows stack). Is fast way to switch between them.




> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:53:56 +0100
> From: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover
>
> Den 20. nov. 2011 21:38, skrev Luiz Felipe Talvik:
> > http://ubuntuone.com/1BAZfzHSzpHYCtfW5neY4U
> > http://ubuntuone.com/02CEbphUkex7mRqSdL5Yx7
> > I know Unity is aiming for simplicity, and is being inspired by newer
> > OSes like android and iOS. But the work that people need
> > to accomplish on the desktop is far more complex than what one does on
> > a mobile.
> >
>
> I still don't understand. In the first mockup, you show a quicklist with
> three spreadsheets. Sure, that could be nice. Doing things like that is
> what dynamic quicklists are for. It's up to the application to choose
> what should be displayed in that list. Whether you want to display most
> popular items, most recent items or the current items, is up to you. The
> launcher doesn't care about that.
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Omar B .]

>Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in the list, 
>so you get the best of both.

that would also be very nice.

I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you submit this soon ?

Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:03:46 -0200
From: tal...@gmail.com
To: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com
CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

Window preview are overrated :P Windows from the same application tend to look 
the same: chat, terminals, file manager, spreadsheets, text editors, all kinds 
of documents.It also breaks the look and feel from the Launcher pop-up.

IMHO, there is nothing easier to scan and search than text in a vertical layout.
Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in the list, 
so you get the best of both.


On 20 November 2011 20:10, Jo-Erlend Schinstad  
wrote:

Den 20. nov. 2011 21:38, skrev Luiz Felipe Talvik:


Recently I've done task in which I needed to refer to several spreadsheets and 
other documents. In Unity, changing between the open documents was quite 
difficult, I had to think to much to find a window and my focus was constantly 
shifting from the main task.


The Launcher is quite agnostic to multiple window applications, so Unity relies 
to much on the window manager for this. I found it quite inferior to the more 
traditional task bar for this type of workflow. I've ended up running another 
task bar(tint2) to get my work done.







Did you know that you can use alt+BAT (button above tab) to switch between 
document windows? It's quite efficient.



Jo-Erlend schinstad





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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Luiz Felipe Talvik]

>I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you submit this
soon ?

Submit where, how? I thought this mailing list was intended for that.

By the way, where are patches discussed and approved?

On 21 November 2011 09:36, Omar B.  wrote:

>  >Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in the
> list, so you get the best of both.
>
> that would also be very nice.
>
> I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you submit this
> soon ?
>
> --
> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:03:46 -0200
> From: tal...@gmail.com
> To: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com
> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover
>
> Window preview are overrated :P
> Windows from the same application tend to look the same: chat, terminals,
> file manager, spreadsheets, text editors, all kinds of documents.
> It also breaks the look and feel from the Launcher pop-up.
>
> IMHO, there is nothing easier to scan and search than text in a vertical
> layout.
>
> Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in the
> list, so you get the best of both.
>
>
> On 20 November 2011 20:10, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
> joerlend.schins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Den 20. nov. 2011 21:38, skrev Luiz Felipe Talvik:
>
>  Recently I've done task in which I needed to refer to several
> spreadsheets and other documents. In Unity, changing between the open
> documents was quite difficult, I had to think to much to find a window and
> my focus was constantly shifting from the main task.
> The Launcher is quite agnostic to multiple window applications, so Unity
> relies to much on the window manager for this. I found it quite inferior to
> the more traditional task bar for this type of workflow. I've ended up
> running another task bar(tint2) to get my work done.
>
>
> Did you know that you can use alt+BAT (button above tab) to switch between
> document windows? It's quite efficient.
>
> Jo-Erlend schinstad
>
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 21. nov. 2011 12:36, skrev Omar B.:
>Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in 
the list, so you get the best of both.


that would also be very nice.

I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you submit 
this soon ?
I am a little worried about inconsistency here. It would be quite 
impossible to provide previews for all kinds of quicklist entries. If 
only some, or even a few, entries would have previews, that could 
quickly become confusing.


The idea is nice, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice. More 
details are necessary. For instance, how would you generate a preview of 
a website that isn't open? Or dynamic diagrams of remote data? These are 
valid use cases for quicklists, but I don't really see how a preview 
would be easily possible and I think consistency is very important.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad
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[Ayatana] Fwd: Re: List windows on hover

[Matt Richardson]

 Perhaps it could show the scale preview of the windows (as currently 
shown on double click) when hovering for half a second.


Personally I find the window previews on Windows 7 to be too small.
They obviously felt this too as they introduced the feature where if you 
hover over a window preview, that window is brought to the front, but 
not selected.
Again, it's only my opinion, but I find this feature (showing the window 
but not selecting it) to be very annoying, as I often hover over the 
window preview, and then try to click something on the window, only to 
have it drop back behind the currently active window.


I really like the way the window previews work on double click, large 
enough to distinguish from each other and easily clickable.

I would suggest the following behaviour:

1) On clicking the launcher icon, if the application does not have 
focus, the last active window is selected, else, the scale preview is shown
2) When hovering over the launcher icon the scale preview is shown (as 
with double click now)


I am aware that displaying these previews probably requires some 
quantity of graphics processing so I think that a half second delay on 
showing the scale preview would be a good idea.
This would be long enough to distinguish between scanning the launcher 
and hovering, but not long enough to make the system feel slow.


Matt

On 20/11/11 20:38, Luiz Felipe Talvik wrote:
Recently I've done task in which I needed to refer to several 
spreadsheets and other documents. In Unity, changing between the open 
documents was quite difficult, I had to think to much to find a window 
and my focus was constantly shifting from the main task.
The Launcher is quite agnostic to multiple window applications, so 
Unity relies to much on the window manager for this. I found it quite 
inferior to the more traditional task bar for this type of workflow. 
I've ended up running another task bar(tint2) to get my work done.


When I hover an icon in the Launcher it just shows a tooltip with the 
application name. I think it would be better if on hover it also 
listed the window's titles, clicking on an item would bring up only 
the referred window. This wouldn't affect most of the current behavior.

http://ubuntuone.com/1BAZfzHSzpHYCtfW5neY4U
http://ubuntuone.com/02CEbphUkex7mRqSdL5Yx7
I know Unity is aiming for simplicity, and is being inspired by newer 
OSes like android and iOS. But the work that people need 
to accomplish on the desktop is far more complex than what one does on 
a mobile.


regards,
Talvik



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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Matt Richardson]

Perhaps it could show the scale preview of the windows (as currently 
shown on double click) when hovering for half a second.


Personally I find the window previews on Windows 7 to be too small.
They obviously felt this too as they introduced the feature where if you 
hover over a window preview, that window is brought to the front, but 
not selected.
Again, it's only my opinion, but I find this feature (showing the window 
but not selecting it) to be very annoying, as I often hover over the 
window preview, and then try to click something on the window, only to 
have it drop back behind the currently active window.


I really like the way the window previews work on double click, large 
enough to distinguish from each other and easily clickable.

I would suggest the following behaviour:

1) On clicking the launcher icon, if the application does not have 
focus, the last active window is selected, else, the scale preview is shown
2) When hovering over the launcher icon the scale preview is shown (as 
with double click now)


I am aware that displaying these previews probably requires some 
quantity of graphics processing so I think that a half second delay on 
showing the scale preview would be a good idea.
This would be long enough to distinguish between scanning the launcher 
and hovering, but not long enough to make the system feel slow.


Matt

On 20/11/11 20:38, Luiz Felipe Talvik wrote:
Recently I've done task in which I needed to refer to several 
spreadsheets and other documents. In Unity, changing between the open 
documents was quite difficult, I had to think to much to find a window 
and my focus was constantly shifting from the main task.
The Launcher is quite agnostic to multiple window applications, so 
Unity relies to much on the window manager for this. I found it quite 
inferior to the more traditional task bar for this type of workflow. 
I've ended up running another task bar(tint2) to get my work done.


When I hover an icon in the Launcher it just shows a tooltip with the 
application name. I think it would be better if on hover it also 
listed the window's titles, clicking on an item would bring up only 
the referred window. This wouldn't affect most of the current behavior.

http://ubuntuone.com/1BAZfzHSzpHYCtfW5neY4U
http://ubuntuone.com/02CEbphUkex7mRqSdL5Yx7
I know Unity is aiming for simplicity, and is being inspired by newer 
OSes like android and iOS. But the work that people need 
to accomplish on the desktop is far more complex than what one does on 
a mobile.


regards,
Talvik



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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 08:47, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:

> On 11/20/2011 10:57 PM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'd love to see a special pie menu unfold, when a mouse drag is held
>> above a launcher button, dwelling.
>>
>
> How would that coexist with the ability to reorder Launcher items via
> drag-and-drop?


When i drag something from Nautilus and hold the drag over a Launcher item
such a menu should appear.
When i drag and hold a Launcher item, it should not appear. OTOH, i'd very
much love to have desktop halves, i.e. left half and right half, like large
tiles, into which i can drag and drop an application. This way the
respective application would be expected to open in a
tiled-to-right-half-of-screen or tiled-to-left-half-of-screen fashion.

When talking about gestures, there's a lot we can do better with drag and
drop, to make the UI feel more natural with pointing devices and
touchscreens.
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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Omar B .]

I think you are a little confused.

what he proposes is not a right click quicklist entry.

Dockbar X already does this on hover (list of open windows):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cbKmMTymZ10/TneWpVhTz3I/F_4/Z34C763PuS0/dockbarx_windowlist_theme.png
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/165/9/b/Shinybar1_3_1_for_DockbarX_by_Levviathor.png


and also does quicklists by right click:

http://ubuntovod.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/dockbarx-unity.png


then what he wants is for the open windows in the background to raise when he 
hovers their entry in preview style. He would only switch to that window when 
he actually clicks.

I personally havent found any issues with what he suggests. Is not very 
different from what you find in other window managers/docks and i believe it 
would increase usability, but developers may have something else in mind , so i 
dont know what they think about it.

Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:57:39 +0100
From: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com
To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover


  



  
  
Den 21. nov. 2011 12:36, skrev Omar B.:

  
  
>Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an
item in the list, so you get the best of both.



that would also be very nice.



I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you
submit this soon ?

  

I am a little worried about inconsistency here. It would be quite
impossible to provide previews for all kinds of quicklist entries.
If only some, or even a few, entries would have previews, that could
quickly become confusing. 



The idea is nice, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice.
More details are necessary. For instance, how would you generate a
preview of a website that isn't open? Or dynamic diagrams of remote
data? These are valid use cases for quicklists, but I don't really
see how a preview would be easily possible and I think consistency
is very important. 



Jo-Erlend Schinstad

  


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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Omar B .]

actually the mailing list is only for discussion.

you will see loads of ideas flying around. But some of them may be very hard or 
impossible to implement.

your suggestions seems practical and dockbarX already has something similar, 
would be great to see it in unity.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cbKmMTymZ10/TneWpVhTz3I/F_4/Z34C763PuS0/dockbarx_windowlist_theme.png

to submit, file a bug report and assign it to ayatana-design. Am quoting 
Owais's instructions here:
>First assign the bug to ayatana-design, this will propagate the
message to the design team.
Once, they discuss the idea and confirm. They'll mark it as
fix-released and then the actual code can land in Unity.
 
Things might be actually bit different but that's how I understand them
 
Good Job and Good Luck! :)
 
-- 
Owais Lone
he...@owaislone.org

Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:45:11 -0200
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover
From: tal...@gmail.com
To: estela...@hotmail.com
CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net

>I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you submit this soon ?

Submit where, how? I thought this mailing list was intended for that. 

By the way, where are patches discussed and approved?


On 21 November 2011 09:36, Omar B.  wrote:






>Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in the list, 
>so you get the best of both.

that would also be very nice.

I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you submit this soon ?


Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:03:46 -0200
From: tal...@gmail.com
To: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com

CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

Window preview are overrated :P 
Windows from the same application tend to look the same: chat, terminals, file 
manager, spreadsheets, text editors, all kinds of documents.It also breaks the 
look and feel from the Launcher pop-up.

IMHO, there is nothing easier to scan and search than text in a vertical layout.
Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in the list, 
so you get the best of both.



On 20 November 2011 20:10, Jo-Erlend Schinstad  
wrote:

Den 20. nov. 2011 21:38, skrev Luiz Felipe Talvik:


Recently I've done task in which I needed to refer to several spreadsheets and 
other documents. In Unity, changing between the open documents was quite 
difficult, I had to think to much to find a window and my focus was constantly 
shifting from the main task.



The Launcher is quite agnostic to multiple window applications, so Unity relies 
to much on the window manager for this. I found it quite inferior to the more 
traditional task bar for this type of workflow. I've ended up running another 
task bar(tint2) to get my work done.








Did you know that you can use alt+BAT (button above tab) to switch between 
document windows? It's quite efficient.



Jo-Erlend schinstad





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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Matt Richardson]

Perhaps it could show the scale preview of the windows (as currently 
shown on double click) when hovering for half a second.


Personally I find the window previews on Windows 7 to be too small.
They obviously felt this too as they introduced the feature where if you 
hover over a window preview, that window is brought to the front, but 
not selected.
Again, it's only my opinion, but I find this feature (showing the window 
but not selecting it) to be very annoying, as I often hover over the 
window preview, and then try to click something on the window, only to 
have it drop back behind the currently active window.


I really like the way the window previews work on double click, large 
enough to distinguish from each other and easily clickable.

I would suggest the following behaviour:

1) On clicking the launcher icon, if the application does not have 
focus, the last active window is selected, else, the scale preview is shown
2) When hovering over the launcher icon the scale preview is shown (as 
with double click now)


I am aware that displaying these previews probably requires some 
quantity of graphics processing so I think that a half second delay on 
showing the scale preview would be a good idea.
This would be long enough to distinguish between scanning the launcher 
and hovering, but not long enough to make the system feel slow.


Matt

On 20/11/11 20:38, Luiz Felipe Talvik wrote:
Recently I've done task in which I needed to refer to several 
spreadsheets and other documents. In Unity, changing between the open 
documents was quite difficult, I had to think to much to find a window 
and my focus was constantly shifting from the main task.
The Launcher is quite agnostic to multiple window applications, so 
Unity relies to much on the window manager for this. I found it quite 
inferior to the more traditional task bar for this type of workflow. 
I've ended up running another task bar(tint2) to get my work done.


When I hover an icon in the Launcher it just shows a tooltip with the 
application name. I think it would be better if on hover it also 
listed the window's titles, clicking on an item would bring up only 
the referred window. This wouldn't affect most of the current behavior.

http://ubuntuone.com/1BAZfzHSzpHYCtfW5neY4U
http://ubuntuone.com/02CEbphUkex7mRqSdL5Yx7
I know Unity is aiming for simplicity, and is being inspired by newer 
OSes like android and iOS. But the work that people need 
to accomplish on the desktop is far more complex than what one does on 
a mobile.


regards,
Talvik



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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[staticd]

design principles, vision and consistency are good things.
Usability and efficiency are essential things.

@Joe: I dont think either Omar or Louiz are refering to quick lists.
what they are speaking of is a menu that pops up *as soon* as one mouses
over the icons, (only If more than one window is open - as pointed out by
callum).

@all:
The proposed change to the launcher (pop up menu) is essential.
The suggested fix for showing titles of *all* windows along with previews
is also very important. previews are cute but a title alone is more useful
than a preview without a tile. (Title+preview>Title alone>preview alone)

Tangent thread:

Task management is broken in ubuntu. The whole focus on
1)removing the distinction between running and launchable apps (why is it
important to confuse them?)
2)app based vs. (window + workspace) based Alt+Tab switcher(very glitzy but
of no practical use above use above ~10 windows IMO)
Is highly disruptive to productivity.

Even this will still be much less efficient than a bottom taskbar due to:
1) the targets are not at a screen edge.( elder users have very poor
coordination in targeting)
2)The targets are close to each other and small in the axis of stacking (
20 pixels) compared to taskbar entries(200 pixels at the screen edge)
3) if we have large targets, we need the menu to stay visible for a while
as the users will have to move the mouse a long way. however this will make
false positives/ accidental shows very much more irritating.

 We need a task bar!
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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 21. nov. 2011 18:51, skrev staticd:



 We need a task bar!


You have at least _ten_ taskbars to choose from.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[Luiz Felipe Talvik]

Omar, thanks for all the info and references. I'll submit it.

Thanks everyone for the input.


On 21 November 2011 13:55, Omar B.  wrote:

>  I think you are a little confused.
>
> what he proposes is not a right click quicklist entry.
>
> Dockbar X already does this on hover (list of open windows):
>
>
> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cbKmMTymZ10/TneWpVhTz3I/F_4/Z34C763PuS0/dockbarx_windowlist_theme.png
>
> http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/165/9/b/Shinybar1_3_1_for_DockbarX_by_Levviathor.png
>
>
> and also does quicklists by right click:
>
> http://ubuntovod.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/dockbarx-unity.png
>
>
> then what he wants is for the open windows in the background to raise when
> he hovers their entry in preview style. He would only switch to that window
> when he actually clicks.
>
> I personally havent found any issues with what he suggests. Is not very
> different from what you find in other window managers/docks and i believe
> it would increase usability, but developers may have something else in mind
> , so i dont know what they think about it.
>
> --
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:57:39 +0100
> From: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover
>
>  Den 21. nov. 2011 12:36, skrev Omar B.:
>
>  >Maybe it would be nice to raise the window when you hover an item in the
> list, so you get the best of both.
>
> that would also be very nice.
>
> I wonder what would be the devs opinion about this. will you submit this
> soon ?
>
> I am a little worried about inconsistency here. It would be quite
> impossible to provide previews for all kinds of quicklist entries. If only
> some, or even a few, entries would have previews, that could quickly become
> confusing.
>
> The idea is nice, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice. More
> details are necessary. For instance, how would you generate a preview of a
> website that isn't open? Or dynamic diagrams of remote data? These are
> valid use cases for quicklists, but I don't really see how a preview would
> be easily possible and I think consistency is very important.
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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