[Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Thorsten Wilms]

Hi!

Workspaces
--

The purpose of workspaces is having a means of organizing windows in 
sets and making it simple and fast to switch between them. Making one 
set visible means hiding all others (except when going into an overview).


Each workspace holds a set of windows in a specific layout.

If you want to have a specific window on all workspaces, you either need 
an "on all workspaces" or an "always on current workspace" feature. You 
are out of luck, if you want one window on some workspaces.


Conceptually, having a single desktop background, including icons, 
requires a background layer below the workspace layer.



Just Sets
-

An alternative to the workspace metaphor is dealing with sets of windows 
directly. No switching between semi-physical workspaces, just showing 
and hiding of sets of windows.


While it's likely preferable that selecting one set hides the others, 
selecting several sets to have all their windows shown can be allowed 
without stretching the metaphor.


The equivalent of "on all workspaces" or "always on current workspace" 
could be having one always present set, which could also hold the 
background and panel.


Set membership could/should be non-exclusive. So instead of an always 
present set (aside of background and panel), there could be a "include 
in all sets" feature.


In addition to sets, there could be layouts. Each set would default to a 
manual layout, but allow switching to automatic tiling layouts. 
Currently, getting to screen filling side-by-side layout is bearable 
thanks to the snapping feature, but a top/bottom split is *work*. Either 
could be had without any dragging, by having a single command to cycle 
through layouts (or several commands for switching to specific layouts).



Stacking


Currently, z-order and minimization are separate affairs, the desktop is 
very special and show-desktop is a special command.


What if the desktop would be treated more like a regular window, with a 
place in the z-order that is not fixed to always-bottom?


Minimization could be replaced with falling to below the desktop. 
Show-desktop would be just raising the desktop to top. Restoring windows 
would be just letting it drop to bottom again. You would probably want a 
special rule to *not* automatically raise the desktop when it receives 
focus, though.


Hiding a set would be dropping the collective z-order to below the 
desktop. The z-stack would contain a little bit of history of 
set-selection, then. That selecting a set would lead to dropping the 
previous top set to the bottom and making sure the desktop is right 
below the selected set is admittedly a little complex of a story :)



--
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[Carl Ansell]

Yep, it is nautilus. Try ctrl+1, ctrl+2 and ctrl+3.

On 01/11/11 05:24, James Jenner wrote:

Hi All,

I just noticed last night that the tool bar for the file browser under 
unity (I presume this is nautilus) has gone for 11.10. Obviously this 
is intentional but does anyone know why?


The only reason I ask is that when working with large file sets I 
often switch between icon or detail view, based on the nature of the 
files I'm viewing (with photography sometimes I'm concerned about the 
file size, sometimes I care about the extension and sometimes I'm 
interested in the preview). I'm sure there is a keyboard short cut to 
change this, but it took me a good minute or two to figure out where I 
can change the view from icons to detail and back again. I found the 
menu initially confusing and wasn't sure if I was to right mouse click 
on the top of the window, on the files pane or to go to the global 
menu or where I could change the order. I'm sure I will get used to 
it, just curious why the very useful toolbar was removed.


Cheers,

James.


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[Ayatana] Libreoffice integration

[tommy]

Hello,

I've been using Ubuntu for a quite long time and the fact that bothers 
me most is Libreoffice integration. Libreoffice looks very out-of-sync 
with rest of the desktop. I think someone should look after 
libreoffice-gtk package.


There are some issues:
- Dotted outline around labels on buttons
- Ruler borders are 2 pixels wide and black (one pixel should be black, 
second should be shadow; it seems there's incompatibility with Ambiance 
theme, as it looks better on other themes)

- Separators on the status bar are black (the same as above)
- Menus and popup menus doesn't look 100% native (padding issues).
- Preferences window - widget frames are black without shadows, 
misaligned up/down arrows on combo boxes

- Toolbar - black outline around combo box drop down menus

This breaks Unity experience. It could look better even when Libreoffice 
were using different theme than the rest of the desktop (like Word 2007 
on Windows).


--
tommy

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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Evan Huus]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 5:56 AM, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Workspaces
> --
>
> The purpose of workspaces is having a means of organizing windows in sets
> and making it simple and fast to switch between them. Making one set visible
> means hiding all others (except when going into an overview).
>
> Each workspace holds a set of windows in a specific layout.
>
> If you want to have a specific window on all workspaces, you either need an
> "on all workspaces" or an "always on current workspace" feature. You are out
> of luck, if you want one window on some workspaces.
>
> Conceptually, having a single desktop background, including icons, requires
> a background layer below the workspace layer.
>
>
> Just Sets
> -
>
> An alternative to the workspace metaphor is dealing with sets of windows
> directly. No switching between semi-physical workspaces, just showing and
> hiding of sets of windows.
>
> While it's likely preferable that selecting one set hides the others,
> selecting several sets to have all their windows shown can be allowed
> without stretching the metaphor.
>
> The equivalent of "on all workspaces" or "always on current workspace" could
> be having one always present set, which could also hold the background and
> panel.
>
> Set membership could/should be non-exclusive. So instead of an always
> present set (aside of background and panel), there could be a "include in
> all sets" feature.
>
> In addition to sets, there could be layouts. Each set would default to a
> manual layout, but allow switching to automatic tiling layouts. Currently,
> getting to screen filling side-by-side layout is bearable thanks to the
> snapping feature, but a top/bottom split is *work*. Either could be had
> without any dragging, by having a single command to cycle through layouts
> (or several commands for switching to specific layouts).
>
>
> Stacking
> 
>
> Currently, z-order and minimization are separate affairs, the desktop is
> very special and show-desktop is a special command.
>
> What if the desktop would be treated more like a regular window, with a
> place in the z-order that is not fixed to always-bottom?
>
> Minimization could be replaced with falling to below the desktop.
> Show-desktop would be just raising the desktop to top. Restoring windows
> would be just letting it drop to bottom again. You would probably want a
> special rule to *not* automatically raise the desktop when it receives
> focus, though.
>
> Hiding a set would be dropping the collective z-order to below the desktop.
> The z-stack would contain a little bit of history of set-selection, then.
> That selecting a set would lead to dropping the previous top set to the
> bottom and making sure the desktop is right below the selected set is
> admittedly a little complex of a story :)

Very interesting idea! Sets as you describe them are certainly more
powerful and more flexible than workspaces in their current form.

The only advantage the current implementation has in my opinion is
simplicity of representation - while I'm quite impressed by sets, I
have no clear idea how the user-interface for them would work. They
expose so many different states and actions that adding items to the
launcher (where the Workspace switcher currently is) would quickly
overload it.

On a slightly tangential note, this sounds vaguely similar to
Firefox's "Tab Groups" functionality (Ctrl-Shift-E to activate it in
Firefox 4+). It may be worth looking at what design choices and
trade-offs the Mozilla folks made in designing that.

I'm very much looking forward to further discussion on this - it has a
lot of potential.

Cheers,
Evan

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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Matt Richardson]

Another place to perhaps search for ideas for implementation would be 
the Compiz "Group and Tab Windows" plugin available from the 
"compiz-fusion-plugins-extra" package*

*
On 01/11/11 12:53, Evan Huus wrote:

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 5:56 AM, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:

Hi!

Workspaces
--

The purpose of workspaces is having a means of organizing windows in sets
and making it simple and fast to switch between them. Making one set visible
means hiding all others (except when going into an overview).

Each workspace holds a set of windows in a specific layout.

If you want to have a specific window on all workspaces, you either need an
"on all workspaces" or an "always on current workspace" feature. You are out
of luck, if you want one window on some workspaces.

Conceptually, having a single desktop background, including icons, requires
a background layer below the workspace layer.


Just Sets
-

An alternative to the workspace metaphor is dealing with sets of windows
directly. No switching between semi-physical workspaces, just showing and
hiding of sets of windows.

While it's likely preferable that selecting one set hides the others,
selecting several sets to have all their windows shown can be allowed
without stretching the metaphor.

The equivalent of "on all workspaces" or "always on current workspace" could
be having one always present set, which could also hold the background and
panel.

Set membership could/should be non-exclusive. So instead of an always
present set (aside of background and panel), there could be a "include in
all sets" feature.

In addition to sets, there could be layouts. Each set would default to a
manual layout, but allow switching to automatic tiling layouts. Currently,
getting to screen filling side-by-side layout is bearable thanks to the
snapping feature, but a top/bottom split is *work*. Either could be had
without any dragging, by having a single command to cycle through layouts
(or several commands for switching to specific layouts).


Stacking


Currently, z-order and minimization are separate affairs, the desktop is
very special and show-desktop is a special command.

What if the desktop would be treated more like a regular window, with a
place in the z-order that is not fixed to always-bottom?

Minimization could be replaced with falling to below the desktop.
Show-desktop would be just raising the desktop to top. Restoring windows
would be just letting it drop to bottom again. You would probably want a
special rule to *not* automatically raise the desktop when it receives
focus, though.

Hiding a set would be dropping the collective z-order to below the desktop.
The z-stack would contain a little bit of history of set-selection, then.
That selecting a set would lead to dropping the previous top set to the
bottom and making sure the desktop is right below the selected set is
admittedly a little complex of a story :)

Very interesting idea! Sets as you describe them are certainly more
powerful and more flexible than workspaces in their current form.

The only advantage the current implementation has in my opinion is
simplicity of representation - while I'm quite impressed by sets, I
have no clear idea how the user-interface for them would work. They
expose so many different states and actions that adding items to the
launcher (where the Workspace switcher currently is) would quickly
overload it.

On a slightly tangential note, this sounds vaguely similar to
Firefox's "Tab Groups" functionality (Ctrl-Shift-E to activate it in
Firefox 4+). It may be worth looking at what design choices and
trade-offs the Mozilla folks made in designing that.

I'm very much looking forward to further discussion on this - it has a
lot of potential.

Cheers,
Evan

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[Ayatana] Can't send email to Ayatana list

[Richard Gaskin]

I'm subscribed to the Ayatana list and receive all messages daily, but
I'm apparently unable to send to the list.

I've verified that the email address used for my subscription matches
that in both the "from" and "reply-to" fields of my email client
("ambassa...@fourthworld.com"), but still I can't send messages to the
list.

No bounce notice is received, and I've white-listed all launchpad.net,
ubuntu.com, and canonical.com addresses in my mail server so I would
expect any such communications to get through.

Can you please help me figure out what I need to do to be able to
participate in the Ayatana list?

Thanks for your help -
-- 
This message was sent from Launchpad by
Richard Gaskin (https://launchpad.net/~rg4w)
using the "Contact this team" link on the Ayatana Discussion team page
(https://launchpad.net/~ayatana).
For more information see
https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/ContactingPeople

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[Ayatana] [Bug 874141] [NEW] Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher

[Launchpad Bug Tracker]

Ryan G (rtgkid) has assigned this bug to you for unity in Ubuntu:

When trying to right-click on the Skype icon, or any other, sometimes
Unity freezes until I open up dash.

ProblemType: Bug
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 11.10
Package: unity 4.22.0-0ubuntu3
ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 3.0.0-12.20-generic 3.0.4
Uname: Linux 3.0.0-12-generic i686
.tmp.unity.support.test.0:
 
ApportVersion: 1.23-0ubuntu3
Architecture: i386
CompizPlugins: 
[core,bailer,detection,composite,opengl,compiztoolbox,decor,gnomecompat,mousepoll,resize,grid,wall,snap,imgpng,unitymtgrabhandles,place,regex,move,vpswitch,animation,session,workarounds,expo,fade,ezoom,scale,unityshell]
CompositorRunning: compiz
CurrentDmesg:
 [  133.672073] Bluetooth: RFCOMM socket layer initialized
 [  133.672076] Bluetooth: RFCOMM ver 1.11
Date: Fri Oct 14 07:05:37 2011
DistUpgraded: Fresh install
DistroCodename: oneiric
DistroVariant: ubuntu
GraphicsCard:
 ATI Technologies Inc RS780M/RS780MN [Radeon HD 3200 Graphics] [1002:9612] 
(prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
   Subsystem: Acer Incorporated [ALI] Device [1025:028d]
InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot" - Release i386 (20111012)
Lsusb:
 Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
 Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
 Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
MachineType: Acer Aspire 5517
ProcEnviron:
 PATH=(custom, no user)
 LANG=en_US.UTF-8
 SHELL=/bin/bash
ProcKernelCmdLine: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.0.0-12-generic 
root=UUID=842d4e0a-7d5d-4900-b7a2-2e40c4605196 ro quiet splash vt.handoff=7
SourcePackage: unity
UpgradeStatus: No upgrade log present (probably fresh install)
dmi.bios.date: 08/12/2009
dmi.bios.vendor: Acer
dmi.bios.version: V1.04
dmi.board.name: Aspire 5517
dmi.board.vendor: Acer
dmi.board.version: V1.04
dmi.chassis.type: 10
dmi.chassis.vendor: Acer
dmi.chassis.version: V1.04
dmi.modalias: 
dmi:bvnAcer:bvrV1.04:bd08/12/2009:svnAcer:pnAspire5517:pvrV1.04:rvnAcer:rnAspire5517:rvrV1.04:cvnAcer:ct10:cvrV1.04:
dmi.product.name: Aspire 5517
dmi.product.version: V1.04
dmi.sys.vendor: Acer
version.compiz: compiz 1:0.9.6+bzr20110929-0ubuntu3
version.libdrm2: libdrm2 2.4.26-1ubuntu1
version.libgl1-mesa-dri: libgl1-mesa-dri 7.11-0ubuntu3
version.libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental: libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental N/A
version.libgl1-mesa-glx: libgl1-mesa-glx 7.11-0ubuntu3
version.xserver-xorg: xserver-xorg 1:7.6+7ubuntu7
version.xserver-xorg-input-evdev: xserver-xorg-input-evdev 1:2.6.0-1ubuntu13
version.xserver-xorg-video-ati: xserver-xorg-video-ati 
1:6.14.99~git20110811.g93fc084-0ubuntu1
version.xserver-xorg-video-intel: xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.15.901-1ubuntu2
version.xserver-xorg-video-nouveau: xserver-xorg-video-nouveau 
1:0.0.16+git20110411+8378443-1

** Affects: unity
 Importance: Undecided
 Assignee: Ayatana Discussion (ayatana)
 Status: Confirmed

** Affects: unity (Ubuntu)
 Importance: Undecided
 Status: Confirmed


** Tags: apport-bug compiz-0.9 i386 oneiric running-unity ubuntu
-- 
Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/874141
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ayatana 
Discussion, which is a bug assignee.

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[Ayatana] [Bug 874141] [NEW] Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher

[Launchpad Bug Tracker]

Ryan G (rtgkid) has assigned this bug to you for unity in Ubuntu:

When trying to right-click on the Skype icon, or any other, sometimes
Unity freezes until I open up dash.

ProblemType: Bug
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 11.10
Package: unity 4.22.0-0ubuntu3
ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 3.0.0-12.20-generic 3.0.4
Uname: Linux 3.0.0-12-generic i686
.tmp.unity.support.test.0:
 
ApportVersion: 1.23-0ubuntu3
Architecture: i386
CompizPlugins: 
[core,bailer,detection,composite,opengl,compiztoolbox,decor,gnomecompat,mousepoll,resize,grid,wall,snap,imgpng,unitymtgrabhandles,place,regex,move,vpswitch,animation,session,workarounds,expo,fade,ezoom,scale,unityshell]
CompositorRunning: compiz
CurrentDmesg:
 [  133.672073] Bluetooth: RFCOMM socket layer initialized
 [  133.672076] Bluetooth: RFCOMM ver 1.11
Date: Fri Oct 14 07:05:37 2011
DistUpgraded: Fresh install
DistroCodename: oneiric
DistroVariant: ubuntu
GraphicsCard:
 ATI Technologies Inc RS780M/RS780MN [Radeon HD 3200 Graphics] [1002:9612] 
(prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
   Subsystem: Acer Incorporated [ALI] Device [1025:028d]
InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot" - Release i386 (20111012)
Lsusb:
 Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
 Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
 Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
MachineType: Acer Aspire 5517
ProcEnviron:
 PATH=(custom, no user)
 LANG=en_US.UTF-8
 SHELL=/bin/bash
ProcKernelCmdLine: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.0.0-12-generic 
root=UUID=842d4e0a-7d5d-4900-b7a2-2e40c4605196 ro quiet splash vt.handoff=7
SourcePackage: unity
UpgradeStatus: No upgrade log present (probably fresh install)
dmi.bios.date: 08/12/2009
dmi.bios.vendor: Acer
dmi.bios.version: V1.04
dmi.board.name: Aspire 5517
dmi.board.vendor: Acer
dmi.board.version: V1.04
dmi.chassis.type: 10
dmi.chassis.vendor: Acer
dmi.chassis.version: V1.04
dmi.modalias: 
dmi:bvnAcer:bvrV1.04:bd08/12/2009:svnAcer:pnAspire5517:pvrV1.04:rvnAcer:rnAspire5517:rvrV1.04:cvnAcer:ct10:cvrV1.04:
dmi.product.name: Aspire 5517
dmi.product.version: V1.04
dmi.sys.vendor: Acer
version.compiz: compiz 1:0.9.6+bzr20110929-0ubuntu3
version.libdrm2: libdrm2 2.4.26-1ubuntu1
version.libgl1-mesa-dri: libgl1-mesa-dri 7.11-0ubuntu3
version.libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental: libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental N/A
version.libgl1-mesa-glx: libgl1-mesa-glx 7.11-0ubuntu3
version.xserver-xorg: xserver-xorg 1:7.6+7ubuntu7
version.xserver-xorg-input-evdev: xserver-xorg-input-evdev 1:2.6.0-1ubuntu13
version.xserver-xorg-video-ati: xserver-xorg-video-ati 
1:6.14.99~git20110811.g93fc084-0ubuntu1
version.xserver-xorg-video-intel: xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.15.901-1ubuntu2
version.xserver-xorg-video-nouveau: xserver-xorg-video-nouveau 
1:0.0.16+git20110411+8378443-1

** Affects: unity
 Importance: Undecided
 Assignee: Ayatana Discussion (ayatana)
 Status: Confirmed

** Affects: unity (Ubuntu)
 Importance: Undecided
 Status: Confirmed


** Tags: apport-bug compiz-0.9 i386 oneiric running-unity ubuntu
-- 
Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/874141
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ayatana 
Discussion, which is a bug assignee.

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Re: [Ayatana] Dash Buggy Ubuntu 11.10

[Ryan Gauger]

Yes. Here is the link:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/874141

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 11:18 PM, Omar B.  wrote:

>
> bug report link ?
>
> 
> > From: rtg...@gmail.com
> > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:48:15 -0500
> > To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> > Subject: [Ayatana] Dash Buggy Ubuntu 11.10
> >
> > Hi. I have one thing to say about 11.10. When Unity works, it looks
> fantastic. Sometimes (I have already filed this as a bug), Unity really
> hangs and graphics lag when an open window is in-minimized, or maximized.
> Sometimes, I have no issues with this problem. Sometimes though, this
> problem occurs. Any ideas on why this happens when it does? Thanks!
> >
> > ---Ryan
> >
> > Sent from my iPod
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
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[Ayatana] [Bug 874141] Re: Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher

[Ryan G]

** Changed in: unity
 Assignee: (unassigned) => Ayatana Discussion (ayatana)

** Changed in: unity
 Assignee: Ayatana Discussion (ayatana) => (unassigned)

** Changed in: unity
 Assignee: (unassigned) => Ayatana Discussion (ayatana)

** Changed in: unity (Ubuntu)
 Assignee: (unassigned) => Ayatana Discussion (ayatana)

-- 
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ayatana
Discussion, which is a bug assignee.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/874141

Title:
  Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher

Status in Unity:
  Confirmed
Status in “unity” package in Ubuntu:
  Confirmed

Bug description:
  When trying to right-click on the Skype icon, or any other, sometimes
  Unity freezes until I open up dash.

  ProblemType: Bug
  DistroRelease: Ubuntu 11.10
  Package: unity 4.22.0-0ubuntu3
  ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 3.0.0-12.20-generic 3.0.4
  Uname: Linux 3.0.0-12-generic i686
  .tmp.unity.support.test.0:
   
  ApportVersion: 1.23-0ubuntu3
  Architecture: i386
  CompizPlugins: 
[core,bailer,detection,composite,opengl,compiztoolbox,decor,gnomecompat,mousepoll,resize,grid,wall,snap,imgpng,unitymtgrabhandles,place,regex,move,vpswitch,animation,session,workarounds,expo,fade,ezoom,scale,unityshell]
  CompositorRunning: compiz
  CurrentDmesg:
   [  133.672073] Bluetooth: RFCOMM socket layer initialized
   [  133.672076] Bluetooth: RFCOMM ver 1.11
  Date: Fri Oct 14 07:05:37 2011
  DistUpgraded: Fresh install
  DistroCodename: oneiric
  DistroVariant: ubuntu
  GraphicsCard:
   ATI Technologies Inc RS780M/RS780MN [Radeon HD 3200 Graphics] [1002:9612] 
(prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
 Subsystem: Acer Incorporated [ALI] Device [1025:028d]
  InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot" - Release i386 (20111012)
  Lsusb:
   Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
   Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
   Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
  MachineType: Acer Aspire 5517
  ProcEnviron:
   PATH=(custom, no user)
   LANG=en_US.UTF-8
   SHELL=/bin/bash
  ProcKernelCmdLine: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.0.0-12-generic 
root=UUID=842d4e0a-7d5d-4900-b7a2-2e40c4605196 ro quiet splash vt.handoff=7
  SourcePackage: unity
  UpgradeStatus: No upgrade log present (probably fresh install)
  dmi.bios.date: 08/12/2009
  dmi.bios.vendor: Acer
  dmi.bios.version: V1.04
  dmi.board.name: Aspire 5517
  dmi.board.vendor: Acer
  dmi.board.version: V1.04
  dmi.chassis.type: 10
  dmi.chassis.vendor: Acer
  dmi.chassis.version: V1.04
  dmi.modalias: 
dmi:bvnAcer:bvrV1.04:bd08/12/2009:svnAcer:pnAspire5517:pvrV1.04:rvnAcer:rnAspire5517:rvrV1.04:cvnAcer:ct10:cvrV1.04:
  dmi.product.name: Aspire 5517
  dmi.product.version: V1.04
  dmi.sys.vendor: Acer
  version.compiz: compiz 1:0.9.6+bzr20110929-0ubuntu3
  version.libdrm2: libdrm2 2.4.26-1ubuntu1
  version.libgl1-mesa-dri: libgl1-mesa-dri 7.11-0ubuntu3
  version.libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental: libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental N/A
  version.libgl1-mesa-glx: libgl1-mesa-glx 7.11-0ubuntu3
  version.xserver-xorg: xserver-xorg 1:7.6+7ubuntu7
  version.xserver-xorg-input-evdev: xserver-xorg-input-evdev 1:2.6.0-1ubuntu13
  version.xserver-xorg-video-ati: xserver-xorg-video-ati 
1:6.14.99~git20110811.g93fc084-0ubuntu1
  version.xserver-xorg-video-intel: xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.15.901-1ubuntu2
  version.xserver-xorg-video-nouveau: xserver-xorg-video-nouveau 
1:0.0.16+git20110411+8378443-1

To manage notifications about this bug go to:
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Re: [Ayatana] Can't send email to Ayatana list

[Richard Gaskin]

Apologies for the last email.  Although I've been unable to send email
to the list through my email client, apparently the form on the Ayatana
page labeled "Contact this team's email address" (which I mistakenly
believed would go to the admin) works for sending email to this list.
Sorry about the confusion.  I'll try to resolve my email client issues
off-list if I can find an admin in a position to help.
-- 
This message was sent from Launchpad by
Richard Gaskin (https://launchpad.net/~rg4w)
using the "Contact this team" link on the Ayatana Discussion team page
(https://launchpad.net/~ayatana).
For more information see
https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/ContactingPeople

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Re: [Ayatana] Can't send email to Ayatana list

[James Gifford]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I got your message here just fine.

Cheers,
James Gifford

On 11/01/2011 10:39 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

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Re: [Ayatana] Can't send email to Ayatana list

[James Gifford]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I got your message here just fine.

Cheers,
James Gifford

On 11/01/2011 10:39 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> I'm subscribed to the Ayatana list and receive all messages daily, 
> but I'm apparently unable to send to the list.
> 
> I've verified that the email address used for my subscription 
> matches that in both the "from" and "reply-to" fields of my email 
> client ("ambassa...@fourthworld.com"), but still I can't send 
> messages to the list.
> 
> No bounce notice is received, and I've white-listed all 
> launchpad.net, ubuntu.com, and canonical.com addresses in my mail 
> server so I would expect any such communications to get through.
> 
> Can you please help me figure out what I need to do to be able to 
> participate in the Ayatana list?
> 
> Thanks for your help -
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 01. nov. 2011 01:24, skrev James Jenner:

Hi All,

I just noticed last night that the tool bar for the file browser under 
unity (I presume this is nautilus) has gone for 11.10. Obviously this 
is intentional but does anyone know why?


That is not Unity. That is Gnome 3. Unity is used to launch and navigate 
between applications. Nautilus is part of Gnome. This is an upstream 
change to simplify the user interface.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[staticd]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Evan Huus  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 5:56 AM, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Workspaces
> > --
> >
> > The purpose of workspaces is having a means of organizing windows in sets
> > and making it simple and fast to switch between them. Making one set
> visible
> > means hiding all others (except when going into an overview).
> >
> > Each workspace holds a set of windows in a specific layout.
> >
> > If you want to have a specific window on all workspaces, you either need
> an
> > "on all workspaces" or an "always on current workspace" feature. You are
> out
> > of luck, if you want one window on some workspaces.
> >
> > Conceptually, having a single desktop background, including icons,
> requires
> > a background layer below the workspace layer.
> >
> >
> > Just Sets
> > -
> >
> > An alternative to the workspace metaphor is dealing with sets of windows
> > directly. No switching between semi-physical workspaces, just showing and
> > hiding of sets of windows.
> >
> > While it's likely preferable that selecting one set hides the others,
> > selecting several sets to have all their windows shown can be allowed
> > without stretching the metaphor.
> >
> > The equivalent of "on all workspaces" or "always on current workspace"
> could
> > be having one always present set, which could also hold the background
> and
> > panel.
> >
> > Set membership could/should be non-exclusive. So instead of an always
> > present set (aside of background and panel), there could be a "include in
> > all sets" feature.
> >
> > In addition to sets, there could be layouts. Each set would default to a
> > manual layout, but allow switching to automatic tiling layouts.
> Currently,
> > getting to screen filling side-by-side layout is bearable thanks to the
> > snapping feature, but a top/bottom split is *work*. Either could be had
> > without any dragging, by having a single command to cycle through layouts
> > (or several commands for switching to specific layouts).
> >
> >
> > Stacking
> > 
> >
> > Currently, z-order and minimization are separate affairs, the desktop is
> > very special and show-desktop is a special command.
> >
> > What if the desktop would be treated more like a regular window, with a
> > place in the z-order that is not fixed to always-bottom?
> >
> > Minimization could be replaced with falling to below the desktop.
> > Show-desktop would be just raising the desktop to top. Restoring windows
> > would be just letting it drop to bottom again. You would probably want a
> > special rule to *not* automatically raise the desktop when it receives
> > focus, though.
> >
> > Hiding a set would be dropping the collective z-order to below the
> desktop.
> > The z-stack would contain a little bit of history of set-selection, then.
> > That selecting a set would lead to dropping the previous top set to the
> > bottom and making sure the desktop is right below the selected set is
> > admittedly a little complex of a story :)
>
> Very interesting idea! Sets as you describe them are certainly more
> powerful and more flexible than workspaces in their current form.
>
> The only advantage the current implementation has in my opinion is
> simplicity of representation - while I'm quite impressed by sets, I
> have no clear idea how the user-interface for them would work. They
> expose so many different states and actions that adding items to the
> launcher (where the Workspace switcher currently is) would quickly
> overload it.
>
> On a slightly tangential note, this sounds vaguely similar to
> Firefox's "Tab Groups" functionality (Ctrl-Shift-E to activate it in
> Firefox 4+). It may be worth looking at what design choices and
> trade-offs the Mozilla folks made in designing that.
>
> I'm very much looking forward to further discussion on this - it has a
> lot of potential.
>
> Cheers,
> Evan
>
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>

1)The interface could remain the same as the current interface for dealing
with windows and workspaces in the Gnome Shell overview (Please look at it
if you haven't). Except that (for eg.):
a)Shift(?) dragging a window into another set/workspace adds it to the set.
b)Holding down Shift(?) and clicking allows selecting multiple sets to be
displayed at once.

2)The idea of the desktop being a special window is really cool.
It will maybe allow different desktops to be displayed for different sets.
this would fit well with the concepts of static workspaces presented here (
in idea 2): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Workspaces/Concepts

3)Technical issues:
a)how to deal with Z stacking across multiple sets.
b)how to deal with different positions for the same window across sets.
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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Thorsten Wilms]

On 11/01/2011 01:53 PM, Evan Huus wrote:


The only advantage the current implementation has in my opinion is
simplicity of representation - while I'm quite impressed by sets, I
have no clear idea how the user-interface for them would work. They
expose so many different states and actions that adding items to the
launcher (where the Workspace switcher currently is) would quickly
overload it.


For the basics, a set manager could be rather similar to the workspace 
switcher. That is, a launcher icon that brings up an overview of all 
sets and their windows. Sets would look much like workspaces then, but 
the wallpaper shouldn't be repeated per set.


Moving windows between sets would happen via dragging. Much like moving 
files between tiled file-manager views (on a single file-system). 
Shift-drag for adding a window to several sets, similar to how you might 
create copies of files.


There's already grouping of windows on a per application level. The 
question would be if it should be treated as being on the same, or a 
different level than explicitly created sets.


A set could be selected by a click anywhere on its area. Closing the 
overview on right click. Selecting several sets via shift-clicks.



--
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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[Ayatana] [Bug 874141] Re: Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher

[IKT]

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Assignment

** Changed in: unity
 Assignee: Ayatana Discussion (ayatana) => (unassigned)

** Changed in: unity (Ubuntu)
 Assignee: Ayatana Discussion (ayatana) => (unassigned)

-- 
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ayatana
Discussion, which is a bug assignee.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/874141

Title:
  Unity freezes when right-clicking on icon in launcher

Status in Unity:
  Confirmed
Status in “unity” package in Ubuntu:
  Confirmed

Bug description:
  When trying to right-click on the Skype icon, or any other, sometimes
  Unity freezes until I open up dash.

  ProblemType: Bug
  DistroRelease: Ubuntu 11.10
  Package: unity 4.22.0-0ubuntu3
  ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 3.0.0-12.20-generic 3.0.4
  Uname: Linux 3.0.0-12-generic i686
  .tmp.unity.support.test.0:
   
  ApportVersion: 1.23-0ubuntu3
  Architecture: i386
  CompizPlugins: 
[core,bailer,detection,composite,opengl,compiztoolbox,decor,gnomecompat,mousepoll,resize,grid,wall,snap,imgpng,unitymtgrabhandles,place,regex,move,vpswitch,animation,session,workarounds,expo,fade,ezoom,scale,unityshell]
  CompositorRunning: compiz
  CurrentDmesg:
   [  133.672073] Bluetooth: RFCOMM socket layer initialized
   [  133.672076] Bluetooth: RFCOMM ver 1.11
  Date: Fri Oct 14 07:05:37 2011
  DistUpgraded: Fresh install
  DistroCodename: oneiric
  DistroVariant: ubuntu
  GraphicsCard:
   ATI Technologies Inc RS780M/RS780MN [Radeon HD 3200 Graphics] [1002:9612] 
(prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
 Subsystem: Acer Incorporated [ALI] Device [1025:028d]
  InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot" - Release i386 (20111012)
  Lsusb:
   Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
   Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
   Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
  MachineType: Acer Aspire 5517
  ProcEnviron:
   PATH=(custom, no user)
   LANG=en_US.UTF-8
   SHELL=/bin/bash
  ProcKernelCmdLine: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.0.0-12-generic 
root=UUID=842d4e0a-7d5d-4900-b7a2-2e40c4605196 ro quiet splash vt.handoff=7
  SourcePackage: unity
  UpgradeStatus: No upgrade log present (probably fresh install)
  dmi.bios.date: 08/12/2009
  dmi.bios.vendor: Acer
  dmi.bios.version: V1.04
  dmi.board.name: Aspire 5517
  dmi.board.vendor: Acer
  dmi.board.version: V1.04
  dmi.chassis.type: 10
  dmi.chassis.vendor: Acer
  dmi.chassis.version: V1.04
  dmi.modalias: 
dmi:bvnAcer:bvrV1.04:bd08/12/2009:svnAcer:pnAspire5517:pvrV1.04:rvnAcer:rnAspire5517:rvrV1.04:cvnAcer:ct10:cvrV1.04:
  dmi.product.name: Aspire 5517
  dmi.product.version: V1.04
  dmi.sys.vendor: Acer
  version.compiz: compiz 1:0.9.6+bzr20110929-0ubuntu3
  version.libdrm2: libdrm2 2.4.26-1ubuntu1
  version.libgl1-mesa-dri: libgl1-mesa-dri 7.11-0ubuntu3
  version.libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental: libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental N/A
  version.libgl1-mesa-glx: libgl1-mesa-glx 7.11-0ubuntu3
  version.xserver-xorg: xserver-xorg 1:7.6+7ubuntu7
  version.xserver-xorg-input-evdev: xserver-xorg-input-evdev 1:2.6.0-1ubuntu13
  version.xserver-xorg-video-ati: xserver-xorg-video-ati 
1:6.14.99~git20110811.g93fc084-0ubuntu1
  version.xserver-xorg-video-intel: xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.15.901-1ubuntu2
  version.xserver-xorg-video-nouveau: xserver-xorg-video-nouveau 
1:0.0.16+git20110411+8378443-1

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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Omar B .]

Isn't the "sets" idea similar to kde-activities ?

http://maketecheasier.com/use-kde-plasma-activities/2010/09/01

http://lifehacker.com/5668873/use-kde-activities-to-create-different-desktops-for-work-and-personal-use

the "virtual desktops" we have are indeed primitive in comparison.


> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:55:43 +0100
> From: t...@freenet.de
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?
>
> On 11/01/2011 01:53 PM, Evan Huus wrote:
>
> > The only advantage the current implementation has in my opinion is
> > simplicity of representation - while I'm quite impressed by sets, I
> > have no clear idea how the user-interface for them would work. They
> > expose so many different states and actions that adding items to the
> > launcher (where the Workspace switcher currently is) would quickly
> > overload it.
>
> For the basics, a set manager could be rather similar to the workspace
> switcher. That is, a launcher icon that brings up an overview of all
> sets and their windows. Sets would look much like workspaces then, but
> the wallpaper shouldn't be repeated per set.
>
> Moving windows between sets would happen via dragging. Much like moving
> files between tiled file-manager views (on a single file-system).
> Shift-drag for adding a window to several sets, similar to how you might
> create copies of files.
>
> There's already grouping of windows on a per application level. The
> question would be if it should be treated as being on the same, or a
> different level than explicitly created sets.
>
> A set could be selected by a click anywhere on its area. Closing the
> overview on right click. Selecting several sets via shift-clicks.
>
>
> --
> Thorsten Wilms
>
> thorwil's design for free software:
> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
>
> ___
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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Thorsten Wilms]

On 11/01/2011 06:18 PM, Omar B. wrote:

Isn't the "sets" idea similar to kde-activities ?

http://maketecheasier.com/use-kde-plasma-activities/2010/09/01

http://lifehacker.com/5668873/use-kde-activities-to-create-different-desktops-for-work-and-personal-use


From what I understand without trying out the implementation: no.

Activities are an addition to the workspace concept, not a replacement.

An Activity seems to resemble what would be a set that may include a 
wallpaper, icons and widgets, but no regular windows.



With the desktop treated like a window and multiplied, desktop-windows 
could take the roles of Activities. Like having a minimalist 
file-and-widget manager window with wallpaper in each set.



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thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Thorsten Wilms]

On 11/01/2011 04:49 PM, staticd wrote:

3)Technical issues:
a)how to deal with Z stacking across multiple sets.


At first I wanted to say similar to how Inkscape handles z-order and 
groups, each set having an internal z-order. But then you wouldn't be 
able to bring a single window of a lower set to above the until-then top 
set. Maybe having to raise the entire set would be OK, maybe not.


So thinking aloud:

If several sets are selected, a closed z-range is applied to every 
window of a set. That is, the stack consists of all windows of the first 
selected set, then above all windows of the second selected set ...


If afterwards only one of the sets gets selected, its z-stack is 
collapsed, that is the gaps that were occupied by windows from other 
sets are removed.




b)how to deal with different positions for the same window across sets.


I described layouts as associated with the sets. But to not run into 
trouble here, a size and position could be properties of windows. The 
manual layout mode would use those, but tiling layout modes would ignore 
them.



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thorwil's design for free software:
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Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?

[Omar B .]

I cant really make an opinion on kde activities as the last time i used it 
(briefly) was on 4.5 and over a year has passed and we are at 4.7 so might be a 
good time to try it out again. As far as i can tell the concept is great and 
would love to start using something like that, but i just cant leave unity.. ;/

Maybe this other concept / mockup might be similar to "sets" or some of the 
other points being discussed:
http://www.techdrivein.com/2011/03/how-about-firefox-4s-panorama-like.html



> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:43:52 +0100
> From: t...@freenet.de
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Are Workspaces the right model?
>
> On 11/01/2011 06:18 PM, Omar B. wrote:
> > Isn't the "sets" idea similar to kde-activities ?
> >
> > http://maketecheasier.com/use-kde-plasma-activities/2010/09/01
> >
> > http://lifehacker.com/5668873/use-kde-activities-to-create-different-desktops-for-work-and-personal-use
>
> From what I understand without trying out the implementation: no.
>
> Activities are an addition to the workspace concept, not a replacement.
>
> An Activity seems to resemble what would be a set that may include a
> wallpaper, icons and widgets, but no regular windows.
>
>
> With the desktop treated like a window and multiplied, desktop-windows
> could take the roles of Activities. Like having a minimalist
> file-and-widget manager window with wallpaper in each set.
>
>
> --
> Thorsten Wilms
>
> thorwil's design for free software:
> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
>
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[Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[anthropornis]

For me personally, a garden variety dock on the bottom of my screen is 
still more useful than the Unity launcher. In this case, I am using 
Docky, and in the screenshot below, you can see both the launcher and 
Docky on my desktop, and it just looks more cluttered than it needs to:


http://i.imgur.com/vUQcW.jpg

Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that he 
or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else altogether)?


I don't follow this list consistently, so I am not clear on this, is it 
a matter of the devs haven't gotten around to it yet, or is the design 
team outright opposed to doing it?


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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:


Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that he 
or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else altogether)?


Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that awesome, or 
what?


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Omar B .]

>I don't follow this list consistently, so I am not clear on this, is it 
a matter of the devs haven't gotten around to it yet, or is the design 
team outright opposed to doing it?
 
i think it may be the first



> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:26:25 -0400
> From: anthropor...@gmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher
>
> For me personally, a garden variety dock on the bottom of my screen is
> still more useful than the Unity launcher. In this case, I am using
> Docky, and in the screenshot below, you can see both the launcher and
> Docky on my desktop, and it just looks more cluttered than it needs to:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/vUQcW.jpg
>
> Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that he
> or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else altogether)?
>
> I don't follow this list consistently, so I am not clear on this, is it
> a matter of the devs haven't gotten around to it yet, or is the design
> team outright opposed to doing it?
>
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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Mark Curtis]

> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:44:24 +0100
> From: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher
> 
> Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:
> >
> > Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that he 
> > or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else altogether)?
> 
> Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that awesome, or 
> what?
> 
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad

Source?
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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 01. nov. 2011 22:09, skrev Mark Curtis:



> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:44:24 +0100
> From: joerlend.schins...@gmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher
>
> Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:
> >
> > Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so 
that he
> > or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else 
altogether)?

>
> Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that 
awesome, or

> what?
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad

Source?


Yes, indeed.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad
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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Tim Penhey]

On 02/11/11 09:44, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:

Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:


Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that he
or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else altogether)?


Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that awesome, or
what?


Hi Jo-Erlend,

Do you have a reference for that?

Tim

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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 01. nov. 2011 22:15, skrev Tim Penhey:

On 02/11/11 09:44, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:

Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:


Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that he
or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else altogether)?


Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that awesome, or
what?


Hi Jo-Erlend,

Do you have a reference for that?

Tim


I do. file:///usr/share/doc/unity/copyright. For more details, see 
file:///usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-3


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[anthropornis]

I'm not sure I understand your reply, I cannot tell if you are being 
facetious or what


On 11/01/2011 04:44 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:

Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:


Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that 
he or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else 
altogether)?


Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that awesome, 
or what?


Jo-Erlend Schinstad


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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Omar B .]

i dont understand his reply either

but i think this would be a better source:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/ubuntu-desktop-designers-clarify-on-configurability


> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:47:32 -0400
> From: anthropor...@gmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher
>
> I'm not sure I understand your reply, I cannot tell if you are being
> facetious or what
>
> On 11/01/2011 04:44 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:
> > Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:
> >>
> >> Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that
> >> he or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else
> >> altogether)?
> >
> > Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that awesome,
> > or what?
> >
> > Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[James Jenner]

On 2 November 2011 01:23, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
wrote:

> Den 01. nov. 2011 01:24, skrev James Jenner:
>
>  Hi All,
>>
>> I just noticed last night that the tool bar for the file browser under
>> unity (I presume this is nautilus) has gone for 11.10. Obviously this is
>> intentional but does anyone know why?
>>
>>  That is not Unity. That is Gnome 3. Unity is used to launch and navigate
> between applications. Nautilus is part of Gnome. This is an upstream change
> to simplify the user interface.
>
>
Ahh, thanks Jo-Erland for the clarification. I wasn't sure where Natuilus
lived.

I'll have to figure out where to make the appropriate feedback then as
while it's simplified, IMHO it's simplified too far. Those toolbar options
were very handy.

Cheers,

James
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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[anthropornis]

Nautilus Elementary had it right in this department; since it is no 
longer being maintained, I hope Marlin will be an option soon, and will 
retain all that was good about Nautilus Elementary, and maybe gain some 
bulk-rename functionality from Thunar.


While I love keyboard shortcuts, some people assume users always have 
two hands on the keyboard. Frankly, doing Ctrl+2 all with my left hand 
is a bit awkward, for me.



On 11/01/2011 07:48 PM, James Jenner wrote:




On 2 November 2011 01:23, Jo-Erlend Schinstad 
mailto:joerlend.schins...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:


Den 01. nov. 2011 01:24, skrev James Jenner:

Hi All,

I just noticed last night that the tool bar for the file
browser under unity (I presume this is nautilus) has gone for
11.10. Obviously this is intentional but does anyone know why?

That is not Unity. That is Gnome 3. Unity is used to launch and
navigate between applications. Nautilus is part of Gnome. This is
an upstream change to simplify the user interface.


Ahh, thanks Jo-Erland for the clarification. I wasn't sure where 
Natuilus lived.


I'll have to figure out where to make the appropriate feedback then as 
while it's simplified, IMHO it's simplified too far. Those toolbar 
options were very handy.


Cheers,

James


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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 02. nov. 2011 02:30, skrev anthropornis:
Nautilus Elementary had it right in this department; since it is no 
longer being maintained, I hope Marlin will be an option soon, and 
will retain all that was good about Nautilus Elementary, and maybe 
gain some bulk-rename functionality from Thunar.


While I love keyboard shortcuts, some people assume users always have 
two hands on the keyboard. Frankly, doing Ctrl+2 all with my left hand 
is a bit awkward, for me.


You don't have to use ctrl+2. You can use the menus with the mouse, if 
you want to, or you can press F10, right arrow twice, up arrow twice and 
enter.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad
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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[James Jenner]

On 2 November 2011 11:30, anthropornis  wrote:

>  Nautilus Elementary had it right in this department; since it is no
> longer being maintained, I hope Marlin will be an option soon, and will
> retain all that was good about Nautilus Elementary, and maybe gain some
> bulk-rename functionality from Thunar.
>
> While I love keyboard shortcuts, some people assume users always have two
> hands on the keyboard. Frankly, doing Ctrl+2 all with my left hand is a bit
> awkward, for me.
>
>
Actually that is a good point. All these keyboard shortcuts are good for
people with good dexterity and adapt at using the keyboard, however I
imagine for people with limited dexterity (arthritis sufferers for example)
would find multiple key presses or certain positions difficult. So while it
may be 'clean' it may not be good from an accessibility point of view.
IMHO, the best option would be to show the buttons and provide the option
to hide them for those who don't like toolbars and prefer a 'cleaner
interface'. However I understand that this is an upstream issue.

Cheers,

James.
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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[anthropornis]

Or I could click one button one time. That is the essence of simplicity.

Hopefully this will return in the future, whether from upstream, a 
Nautilus extension, a Canonical patch, or a Canonical selection of a 
different file manager as default.



On 11/01/2011 09:39 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:

Den 02. nov. 2011 02:30, skrev anthropornis:
Nautilus Elementary had it right in this department; since it is no 
longer being maintained, I hope Marlin will be an option soon, and 
will retain all that was good about Nautilus Elementary, and maybe 
gain some bulk-rename functionality from Thunar.


While I love keyboard shortcuts, some people assume users always have 
two hands on the keyboard. Frankly, doing Ctrl+2 all with my left 
hand is a bit awkward, for me.


You don't have to use ctrl+2. You can use the menus with the mouse, if 
you want to, or you can press F10, right arrow twice, up arrow twice 
and enter.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad
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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[Chow Loong Jin]

On 02/11/2011 11:14, anthropornis wrote:
> Or I could click one button one time. That is the essence of simplicity.

You could say that for every commonly used feature there is.

I don't frequently change views, for example, but I frequently change between
showing hidden files and not. I also create new folders much more frequently
than I switch views, and the same can be said about changing the arrangement of
items.

By your logic, we would have three new buttons for each view, a toggle "Show
hidden files" button, perhaps a menu for changing the sorting order of items and
a create new folder button in the toolbar, or elsewhere not in the menu.

The result would be a beautifully cluttered interface. You can't have
everything, and you can't fully please everyone.

Incidentally, all of the mentioned actions, except changing sorting order, have
keyboard shortcuts for them, which are clearly indicated beside their entries in
the menu. I really don't see a problem with the current solution.

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[James Jenner]

On 2 November 2011 13:34, Chow Loong Jin  wrote:

> On 02/11/2011 11:14, anthropornis wrote:
> > Or I could click one button one time. That is the essence of simplicity.
>
> You could say that for every commonly used feature there is.
>
> I don't frequently change views, for example, but I frequently change
> between
> showing hidden files and not. I also create new folders much more
> frequently
> than I switch views, and the same can be said about changing the
> arrangement of
> items.
>
> By your logic, we would have three new buttons for each view, a toggle
> "Show
> hidden files" button, perhaps a menu for changing the sorting order of
> items and
> a create new folder button in the toolbar, or elsewhere not in the menu.
>
> The result would be a beautifully cluttered interface. You can't have
> everything, and you can't fully please everyone.
>
> Incidentally, all of the mentioned actions, except changing sorting order,
> have
> keyboard shortcuts for them, which are clearly indicated beside their
> entries in
> the menu. I really don't see a problem with the current solution.
>

The solution before the current solution was to have a toolbar with buttons
for common actions. Who said that the solution that was 'current'
previously had to change?

I'm not aware of anyone saying that all options should be available by a
toolbar. Just the common ones. One idea would be to allow a user to choose
what the buttons are available on the toolbar. Maybe have a default set
based on the common use cases for a browser.

And you haven't addressed the issue for accessibility. Not everyone is
adapt at multi-key pressing like you are. Do we just ignore people who have
poor dexterity so there can be an 'uncluttered' interface (which is a
subjective measure, I would have argued that the previous interface was
'uncluttered').

And please don't use reductio ad absurdum, I could equally say that based
on your logic all toolbars from all applications should be removed because
it will be 'uncluttered'. I would presume that would be equally absurd as
your claim that based on our logic all options should be on a toolbar.
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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[Ian Santopietro]

He's being quite facetious. He means you are free to edit the source code
and make Unity be gave exactly the way you want.
 On Nov 1, 2011 6:11 PM, "Omar B."  wrote:

>
> i dont understand his reply either
>
> but i think this would be a better source:
>
> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/ubuntu-desktop-designers-clarify-on-configurability
>
> 
> > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:47:32 -0400
> > From: anthropor...@gmail.com
> > To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand your reply, I cannot tell if you are being
> > facetious or what
> >
> > On 11/01/2011 04:44 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:
> > > Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:
> > >>
> > >> Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher so that
> > >> he or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else
> > >> altogether)?
> > >
> > > Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that awesome,
> > > or what?
> > >
> > > Jo-Erlend Schinstad
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[Chow Loong Jin]

On 02/11/2011 12:25, James Jenner wrote:
> 
> The solution before the current solution was to have a toolbar with buttons 
> for
> common actions. Who said that the solution that was 'current' previously had 
> to
> change?

Upstream, I guess, but wouldn't you agree it looks much cleaner this way?

> I'm not aware of anyone saying that all options should be available by a
> toolbar. Just the common ones. One idea would be to allow a user to choose 
> what
> the buttons are available on the toolbar. Maybe have a default set based on 
> the
> common use cases for a browser.

The default set *is* based on common use cases. Except, say, the search button
which I've never used. But yes, a configurable toolbar would be nice.

> And you haven't addressed the issue for accessibility. Not everyone is adapt 
> at
> multi-key pressing like you are. Do we just ignore people who have poor
> dexterity so there can be an 'uncluttered' interface (which is a subjective
> measure, I would have argued that the previous interface was 'uncluttered').

It really isn't hard to hit Ctrl+[1-3]. No, really. See, your thumb goes on the
control key.. and your third finger goes on the number key. Was that so hard?
(Let's ignore for a moment the whole hand-must-stay-on-home-row case, because if
we go into that, we should obviously exchange the Caps lock key for a Ctrl key
and then it gets even easier).

> And please don't use reductio ad absurdum, I could equally say that based on
> your logic all toolbars from all applications should be removed because it 
> will
> be 'uncluttered'. I would presume that would be equally absurd as your claim
> that based on our logic all options should be on a toolbar.

I was just ranking things by how frequently used they were. You may change views
often, but I don't, and in fact, I use the "Show hidden files" option a lot 
more.

Hence, if we're going to add the change-view buttons onto the toolbar, then
please add my show hidden files button, and every $button that everyone else
uses most frequently as well to be fair to everyone.

I think I've just demonstrated here that this is an option that is rather
subjective based on the type of user you're looking at -- a corner case. On the
other hand, putting every other toolbar option into the menu (in Nautilus's
case, the back/forward button which I'm sure everyone uses, the breadcrumbs and
location bar which I'm also sure everyone uses), is rather absurd in comparison.
If anyone was using "reductio ad absurdum", that would be you.

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[anthropornis]

In Nautilus Elementary I had 3 buttons to switch views (icon, list, 
compact). It was on the same row as the location (text or breadcrumb) 
and was not cluttered for me at all.


Cluttered is A) in the eye of the beholder B) dependent on screen 
resolution and C) typically something one can toggle on and off.


But what you suggest is actually interesting -- a customizable tool bar, 
just like in LibreOffice, Firefox, and other mainstream applications. Oh 
my, I could potentially have 20 different buttons I could add to my own 
toolbar, or just select a subset of, e.g., 3 of those, to put on my 
personalized tool bar. That almost sounds  like something that has 
been around for years.


I understand that you do not see a problem with the current "solution." 
That is typically how problems begin, one user thinks his way should be 
the way for everyone, and just excuse this penchant by throwing out that 
old bromide "oh, you can't please everyone". That is true, but it's one 
thing to actually try, and another to just say "do it my way". This is 
why I don't consistently follow this mailing list, because there is no 
shortage of that type of thinking present here. Other users? What other 
users?


The thing is, if people other than yourself have things they can toggle 
on/off, or re-arrange, at will, it does not even have to affect you, or 
your own views on clutter. We can ~all~ be closer to happy that way. 
User interface precedents do exist in this area. I never understand why 
that is so offensive to some people.


In any event, hopefully the jump to GTK3 was the last major breakage and 
features will return or be added, in one file manager or another.


PS for the time being I am using GPRename instead of Purrr, but thanks 
for the suggestion (that reply didn't make it to the list).




On 11/01/2011 11:34 PM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:

On 02/11/2011 11:14, anthropornis wrote:

Or I could click one button one time. That is the essence of simplicity.

You could say that for every commonly used feature there is.

I don't frequently change views, for example, but I frequently change between
showing hidden files and not. I also create new folders much more frequently
than I switch views, and the same can be said about changing the arrangement of
items.

By your logic, we would have three new buttons for each view, a toggle "Show
hidden files" button, perhaps a menu for changing the sorting order of items and
a create new folder button in the toolbar, or elsewhere not in the menu.

The result would be a beautifully cluttered interface. You can't have
everything, and you can't fully please everyone.

Incidentally, all of the mentioned actions, except changing sorting order, have
keyboard shortcuts for them, which are clearly indicated beside their entries in
the menu. I really don't see a problem with the current solution.


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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[anthropornis]

Agreed.

Maybe the evolution of Nautilus, and Gnome in general, will move to 
completely terminal based everything, much less cluttered that way, no 
ugly GUI's tarnishing our screens.


Maybe we need a file manager based on Emacs!


On 11/02/2011 12:25 AM, James Jenner wrote:
And you haven't addressed the issue for accessibility. Not everyone is 
adapt at multi-key pressing like you are. Do we just ignore people who 
have poor dexterity so there can be an 'uncluttered' interface (which 
is a subjective measure, I would have argued that the previous 
interface was 'uncluttered').


And please don't use reductio ad absurdum, I could equally say that 
based on your logic all toolbars from all applications should 
be removed because it will be 'uncluttered'. I would presume that 
would be equally absurd as your claim that based on our logic all 
options should be on a toolbar.




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Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher

[anthropornis]

I suspected that. Naturally, at least 98% of Canonical's new target 
demographic(s) is quite capable of editing the source.


Certainly, if I had the know-how, I could just go create my own OS from 
scratch, build my own mobo from scratch, etc. This is Ubuntu, not Arch, 
and yes, everyone knows they can do everything themselves, whether it's 
their operating system, or changing their oil.


In other words,  Jo-Erlend Schinstad had nothing constructive to add. 
Why do people post such unhelpful things so routinely on this list? It 
seems to be perhaps one quarter (yes, that is wild guess made up on the 
spot) of all replies on any thread on this list, usually by the same 
individuals over and over. If you have nothing helpful to say, why 
bother posting? Snarkiness doesn't fix anything (certainly not bug #1) 
and just makes it a chore to follow this mailing list, particularly when 
the same people serially state "install something else" as if that never 
occurred to people critiquing their pet pieces of software. It gets 
tiresome after awhile.



On 11/02/2011 12:43 AM, Ian Santopietro wrote:


He's being quite facetious. He means you are free to edit the source 
code and make Unity be gave exactly the way you want.


On Nov 1, 2011 6:11 PM, "Omar B." > wrote:



i dont understand his reply either

but i think this would be a better source:

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/ubuntu-desktop-designers-clarify-on-configurability


> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:47:32 -0400
> From: anthropor...@gmail.com 
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] option to disable Unity launcher
>
> I'm not sure I understand your reply, I cannot tell if you are being
> facetious or what
>
> On 11/01/2011 04:44 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:
> > Den 01. nov. 2011 21:26, skrev anthropornis:
> >>
> >> Will Canonical ever permit the user to disable the launcher
so that
> >> he or she can use the dock of their choice (or something else
> >> altogether)?
> >
> > Canonical has chosen to permit 100% configurability. Is that
awesome,
> > or what?
> >
> > Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[Chow Loong Jin]

On 02/11/2011 12:43, anthropornis wrote:
> In Nautilus Elementary I had 3 buttons to switch views (icon, list, compact). 
> It
> was on the same row as the location (text or breadcrumb) and was not cluttered
> for me at all.

Strange. In my Nautilus Elementary, the buttons were on the status bar beside
the zoom slider. But yes, I agree it wasn't cluttered. It looked pretty nice
actually.

> [...]
> But what you suggest is actually interesting -- a customizable tool bar, just
> like in LibreOffice, Firefox, and other mainstream applications. Oh my, I 
> could
> potentially have 20 different buttons I could add to my own toolbar, or just
> select a subset of, e.g., 3 of those, to put on my personalized tool bar. That
> almost sounds  like something that has been around for years.

That was pretty obvious without having you mention it, but thanks anyway.

> I understand that you do not see a problem with the current "solution." That 
> is
> typically how problems begin, one user thinks his way should be the way for
> everyone, and just excuse this penchant by throwing out that old bromide "oh,
> you can't please everyone". That is true, but it's one thing to actually try,
> and another to just say "do it my way". This is why I don't consistently 
> follow
> this mailing list, because there is no shortage of that type of thinking 
> present
> here. Other users? What other users?

If I had it my way without considering other users, I would have a show hidden
files/folders checkbox somewhere visible on the UI, not hidden in the menu. Try
thinking about the greatest common denominator here, why don't you?

> The thing is, if people other than yourself have things they can toggle 
> on/off,
> or re-arrange, at will, it does not even have to affect you, or your own views
> on clutter. We can ~all~ be closer to happy that way. User interface 
> precedents
> do exist in this area. I never understand why that is so offensive to some 
> people.

Yay, but the UX team wasn't so happy with that, last I checked. *cough*
notify-osd *cough* (not that I dislike its default behaviour, by the way)

> [...]
> PS for the time being I am using GPRename instead of Purrr, but thanks for the
> suggestion (that reply didn't make it to the list).

Whoops.

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[anthropornis]

On 11/02/2011 12:43 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:

Upstream, I guess, but wouldn't you agree it looks much cleaner this way?


It would be even cleaner without those pesky files listed in the middle.


Hence, if we're going to add the change-view buttons onto the toolbar, then
please add my show hidden files button, and every $button that everyone else
uses most frequently as well to be fair to everyone.


You've honestly never used a piece of software where you could 
specifically select, from a set, the specific buttons which you, 
personally, wanted on a tool bar?


In any event, if functionality will be returning / added in the future, 
that is great. In the meantime, if you are defending the LOSS of 
functionality for the sake of defending something, what's the point? 
Gnome is too busy removing stuff to notice such chivalry. Always have 
been, always will be. I mean, it's Gnome. It's what they do.


I know, I know, "install something else" or "hack it yourself with Emacs".


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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[anthropornis]

On 11/02/2011 01:09 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:

In Nautilus Elementary I had 3 buttons to switch views (icon, list, compact). It
was on the same row as the location (text or breadcrumb) and was not cluttered
for me at all.
Strange. In my Nautilus Elementary, the buttons were on the status bar beside
the zoom slider. But yes, I agree it wasn't cluttered. It looked pretty nice
actually.


It may have been that way for me by default, I can't remember. But I 
moved things around, and it was just nice to be able to actually do that.


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Re: [Ayatana] buttons in file browser

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 02. nov. 2011 06:24, skrev anthropornis:

On 11/02/2011 01:09 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
In Nautilus Elementary I had 3 buttons to switch views (icon, list, 
compact). It
was on the same row as the location (text or breadcrumb) and was not 
cluttered

for me at all.
Strange. In my Nautilus Elementary, the buttons were on the status 
bar beside
the zoom slider. But yes, I agree it wasn't cluttered. It looked 
pretty nice

actually.


It may have been that way for me by default, I can't remember. But I 
moved things around, and it was just nice to be able to actually do that.


You have the right to choose exactly how Nautilus will look and feel. As 
I said before, in another thread, you have 100% configurability if you 
really want it. Some users now have to click twice instead of once. That 
is true. But it is also true that a lot more people have gained a 
simpler and easier file manager. It is better to have a default 
interface that is clean and simple, with the ability to add buttons you 
like, than to start with a cluttered interface with the ability to remove.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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