Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbar

[Ian Santopietro]

The problem here isn't the dark toolbar wasting space, it's just making the
space taken more apparent. The issue is the new Gnome 3 settings application
wasting space. The new toolbar is only a color; it does not take up any
additional space.

I'm in support of the dark toolbars. I think they draw a nice distinction
between the UI/interface, and the user content. As it stands, dark toolbars
help the user focus on the content in the window. A dark panel helps this,
but dark toolbars draw a cleaner separation between content, and the tools
that act on that content.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 05:40, Sony-qs  wrote:

> **
>  I'm new here, but that's a nice discussion! That's right, the dark Toolbar
> isn't space friendly. And I began to love the space I won with natty ;-)
> "nrundy" talked about a search box in the toolbar ... and yes they often
> need many space, so why don't put it in the right corner under the toolbar,
> if there's one! The box could be half transparent and hover onMouseOver!
> look@this 
>
> Another question: I even miss fixing the Unity-Panel to accept
> keyCombinations for Alt+E (Edit) -> Alt-C (Configuration)! First step is
> working but then you can only choose with Up and Down! Work in progress?
> Greetings from Germany
>
> Am 22.07.2011 19:39, schrieb Carl Ansell:
>
>  I feel that the toolbars should only be used where it makes sense. In the
> earlier example, it did not make sense to have a thick toolbar for just a
> search box.
>
>
> Having them blend in with the top panel could be seen as a good thing when
> the window is active. Both the toolbar and the menu would be together, and
> it is worth remembering that the global-menu means that the panel is
> integrated with the running application.
>
>
>
> When the application becomes inactive, the toolbar could slide upwards and
> out of view, like the unity launcher slides to the left at present. After
> all, if the application is inactive, the toolbar is not going to be needed
> until it becomes active again, in which case the toolbar can re-appear.
>
>
>  --
> From: nru...@hotmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:08:40 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars waste vertical space - what
> was the point of Unity?
>
>  The newly implemented Dark Toolbars to Oneiric have left me wondering if
> the Developers have forgotten one of the driving principles for Unity--to
> reclaim vertical space?
>
>  Look at the following comparison between Natty as it is today and Oneiric
> with Dark Toolbars. In Oneiric, not only has writing been placed underneath
> the icons (taking vertical space) but there is now a huge/thick
> vertical-space-wasting "Dark Toolbar" with only one item on it: the search
> box. COME ON! I thought the whole point of Unity was to allow more space for
> the items in the window. Does everything that uses Gnome 3.0 have to present
> enormous amounts of chrome with no purpose other than to waste vertical
> space? One of the things I love about Natty is how much vertical space has
> been reclaimed. Now it's looking like all that is going to be gone in
> Oneiric.
> http://imgur.com/a/w9pBQ
>
>  --
> From: nru...@hotmail.com
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:06:08 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars are a BAD idea - here's why
>
>  Dark Toolbars are a BAD idea. The Top-Panel should remain a significantly
> darker color than application toolbars.
>
>  Gnome-shell has the right idea where they made the top-panel black,
> communicating that the top-panel is NOT part of a running application.
> Google has started putting a black top-panel across its webpages,
> communicating that the top-panel is NOT part of the search results or web
> page's content. These dark top-panels provide an always-present, constant
> frame of reference that grounds the user and differentiates it from the
> project's focus (i.e., a web search, a web page's content, or a running
> application). This grounded focus is lost when Dark Toolbars are merged to
> the top-panel.
>
>  The Top-Panel is NOT part of a running application. Yet this is exactly
> what is communicated to the user when application toolbars are essentially
> merged to the Top-Panel. Keeping the top-panel separate from application
> toolbars is even more important now because of Unity's new space-saving
> design. To move an entire window for example, a user can click on the
> Titlebar. Yet dark toolbars would be the same color as the titlebar. To
> restore a maximized window, the user can double-click free space on the
> top-panel. Yet dark toolbars would present loads of free space the same
> color as the Top-Panel. There are all kinds of problems with choosing Dark
> Toolbars.
>
>  Aesthetically it is also a failure. It shrouds regularly used
> tools/buttons in darkness. The buttons and tools sh

Re: [Ayatana] Gnome 3 wastes Vertical Space in 11.10 & Oneiric Dark Toolbar

[nick rundy]

<<>>

Dark Toolbars do draw a distinction, but it is too extreme and not appropriate 
for the context, especially considering that the user has to interact with the 
toolbar to manager the content. It should not be cast in shadow when it is 
something the user needs to interact with regularly. This is BAD design. It's 
like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in shadow with no overhead 
light. Instead a middle color (e.g., gray, even a dark gray) should be used for 
the Toolbars. This provides a "nice distinction" both from the content AND from 
the titlebar & top-panel. I have no problem drawing a clean separation between 
content and the tools that act on that content. But the tools should NOT be 
colored the same as the TITLEBAR and the TOP-PANEL. This is the crux of the 
problem. It inappropriately merges two separate functions and shrouds the tools 
used to manage content in the dark. This is NOT good design.
Point taken about the dark toolbars not being the "cause" of diminishing 
vertical space. But something has to be done about this. I abandoned 
gnome-shell because of the wasted vertical space. Unity, I thought, was to 
correct this. Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD   Look it all the 
space that is just wasted for NOTHING. What is the point of all that chrome at 
the top of the window? It is retarded development, poorly thought out, and not 
oriented towards functional & efficient desktop/laptop/netbook use.
I really hope someone at Canonical recognizes this and fixes it before it 
becomes final. One of the primary things that drew me to Unity was the great 
use of space. This advantage is gone if the gnome 3 chrome over-use problem 
infects Unity with ubuntu 11.10!
 From: isan...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:30:53 -0600
To: sony...@live.de
CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbar

The problem here isn't the dark toolbar wasting space, it's just making the 
space taken more apparent. The issue is the new Gnome 3 settings application 
wasting space. The new toolbar is only a color; it does not take up any 
additional space. 


I'm in support of the dark toolbars. <<>>



On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 05:40, Sony-qs  wrote:




  

  
  
 I'm new here, but that's a nice discussion! That's right, the dark
Toolbar isn't space friendly. And I began to love the space I won
with natty ;-) "nrundy" talked about a search box in the toolbar ...
and yes they often need many space, so why don't put it in the right
corner under the toolbar, if there's one! The box could be half
transparent and hover onMouseOver! look@this



Another question: I even miss fixing the Unity-Panel to accept
keyCombinations for Alt+E (Edit) -> Alt-C (Configuration)! First
step is working but then you can only choose with Up and Down! Work
in progress?

Greetings from Germany



Am 22.07.2011 19:39, schrieb Carl Ansell:

  
   I feel that the toolbars should only be used where
it makes sense. In the earlier example, it did not make sense to
have a thick toolbar for just a search box.





Having them blend in with the top panel could be seen as a good
thing when the window is active. Both the toolbar and the menu
would be together, and it is worth remembering that the
global-menu means that the panel is integrated with the running
application.







When the application becomes inactive, the toolbar could slide
upwards and out of view, like the unity launcher slides to the
left at present. After all, if the application is inactive, the
toolbar is not going to be needed until it becomes active again,
in which case the toolbar can re-appear.






  From: nru...@hotmail.com

  To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net

  Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:08:40 -0400

  Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars waste vertical
  space - what was the point of Unity?

  

  
  
The newly implemented Dark Toolbars to Oneiric
have left me wondering if the Developers have forgotten
one of the driving principles for Unity--to reclaim
vertical space?


  
Look at the following comparison between Natty
as it is today and Oneiric with Dark Toolbars. In
Oneiric, not only has writing been placed underneath the
icons (taking vertical space) but there is now a
huge/thick vertical-space-wasting "Dark Toolbar" with
only one item on it: the search box. COME ON! I thought
the whole point of Unity was to allow more space for the
items in the window. Does everything that uses Gnome 3.0
have to pre

Re: [Ayatana] Gnome 3 wastes Vertical Space in 11.10 & Oneiric Dark Toolbar

[Ian Santopietro]

""" It's like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in shadow with
no overhead light."""

It isn't. Saying that is drawing an assumption that users can't focus on a
dark background. The color for each toolbar icon remains unchanged, and
since most of the are light colored, the dark toolbar accentuates the shape
of the icon. It isn't like keeping your tools in shadow, rather like keeping
your tools on a workbench painted black.

I don't think the Titlebar/menubar and the toolbar really ought to be
considered separate functions. The menu as well as the toolbar contain tools
that act on the content; in fact, many toolbar icons are there because they
are frequently accessed menu items.

In my opinion, the best way to think of it is a distinction into two parts,
rather than three. Instead of thinking about System functions, App
functions, and Content as each being separate, think only of any functions
and any content as separate.

""" Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD""";

Those don't show any wasted vertical space because the application isn't
maximised, indicating the user doesn't care how much space it takes up. The
background wastes vertical space in these examples. Furthermore, the space
is utilized at times, just not when you took the screenshot. The System
Settings bar contains a search box (Which new users will find useful, not
wasteful) and the "All Settings" button when a specific item is opened (also
useful to new users, so they know how to get back). And, the space is
available to add new functionality later without needing to revamp the
application design.

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 15:28, nick rundy  wrote:

>  << user content. As it stands, dark toolbars help the user focus on the content
> in the window. A dark panel helps this, but dark toolbars draw a cleaner
> separation between content, and the tools that act on that content.>>>
>
> Dark Toolbars do draw a distinction, but it is too extreme and not
> appropriate for the context, especially considering that the user has to
> interact with the toolbar to manager the content. It should not be cast in
> shadow when it is something the user needs to interact with regularly. This
> is BAD design. It's like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in
> shadow with no overhead light. Instead a middle color (e.g., gray, even a
> dark gray) should be used for the Toolbars. This provides a "nice
> distinction" both from the content AND from the titlebar & top-panel. I have
> no problem drawing a clean separation between content and the tools that act
> on that content. But the tools should NOT be colored the same as the
> TITLEBAR and the TOP-PANEL. This is the crux of the problem. It
> inappropriately merges two separate functions and shrouds the tools used to
> manage content in the dark. This is NOT good design.
>
> Point taken about the dark toolbars not being the "cause" of diminishing
> vertical space. But something has to be done about this. I abandoned
> gnome-shell because of the wasted vertical space. Unity, I thought, was to
> correct this. Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD   Look it all
> the space that is just wasted for NOTHING. What is the point of all that
> chrome at the top of the window? It is retarded development, poorly thought
> out, and not oriented towards functional & efficient desktop/laptop/netbook
> use.
>
> I really hope someone at Canonical recognizes this and fixes it before it
> becomes final. One of the primary things that drew me to Unity was the great
> use of space. This advantage is gone if the gnome 3 chrome over-use problem
> infects Unity with ubuntu 11.10!
>
>
> --
> From: isan...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:30:53 -0600
> To: sony...@live.de
> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbar
>
> The problem here isn't the dark toolbar wasting space, it's just making the
> space taken more apparent. The issue is the new Gnome 3 settings application
> wasting space. The new toolbar is only a color; it does not take up any
> additional space.
>
> I'm in support of the dark toolbars. << distinction between the UI/interface, and the user content. As it stands,
> dark toolbars help the user focus on the content in the window. A dark panel
> helps this, but dark toolbars draw a cleaner separation between content, and
> the tools that act on that content.>>>
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 05:40, Sony-qs  wrote:
>
> **
>  I'm new here, but that's a nice discussion! That's right, the dark Toolbar
> isn't space friendly. And I began to love the space I won with natty ;-)
> "nrundy" talked about a search box in the toolbar ... and yes they often
> need many space, so why don't put it in the right corner under the toolbar,
> if there's one! The box could be half transparent and hover onMouseOver!
> look@this 
>
> Another question: I even miss fixing the Unity-Panel to 

Re: [Ayatana] Gnome 3 wastes Vertical Space in 11.10 & Oneiric Dark Toolbar

[nick rundy]

Yeah, the menu and toolbar are tools that act on the content. Except one is a 
visual tool represented with icons and pictures, the other a written 
(non-visual) tool. Dark toolbars surround the visual-tool in darkness, which is 
different than surrounding the written-tool in darkness. App menus are written 
words and accessible by keyboard-shortcut. These are important distinctions 
that apparently have not been taken into consideration or recognized.
I'm always having to maximize windows. But I wouldn't have to if a better 
design was implemented to not waste vertical space. It's a fallacy in logic to 
state that because a user doesn't have a window maximized he/she doesn't care 
how much space is taken up. It doesn't change the fact that giving the user 
more space means less scrolling, whether the window is maximized or not.
It is not helpful to think of "any functions and any content as separate." They 
are not.  The OS is separate from open applications. I may have several 
applications open at once, but this is not the case with the OS. When app 
toolbars all start looking the same as the OS, it becomes one big dark blur of 
chrome and it becomes difficult to sort and differentiate applications from the 
OS, especially when the toolbars are different across applications. The 
pictures are different, the icons are different, the toolbar functions are 
different. This is not the case with Applications Menus nor the Status 
Indicators that appear in the Top-Panel. They do not differ in the same ways as 
toolbars do across applications. They remain basically the same. Written words 
with drop-down menus. 

To share your analogy, the black workbench you speak of is the Operating 
System. The toolbars are trays that hold the tools. When all the trays are made 
black, you lose the ability to differentiate the trays from the workbench. Yet 
this is exactly what users need to do at times when using applications--be able 
to see the tray from the workbench.

From: isan...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:45:06 -0600
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Gnome 3 wastes Vertical Space in 11.10 & Oneiric Dark 
Toolbar
To: nru...@hotmail.com
CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net

""" It's like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in shadow with no 
overhead light."""
It isn't. Saying that is drawing an assumption that users can't focus on a dark 
background. The color for each toolbar icon remains unchanged, and since most 
of the are light colored, the dark toolbar accentuates the shape of the icon. 
It isn't like keeping your tools in shadow, rather like keeping your tools on a 
workbench painted black.


I don't think the Titlebar/menubar and the toolbar really ought to be 
considered separate functions. The menu as well as the toolbar contain tools 
that act on the content; in fact, many toolbar icons are there because they are 
frequently accessed menu items. 


In my opinion, the best way to think of it is a distinction into two parts, 
rather than three. Instead of thinking about System functions, App functions, 
and Content as each being separate, think only of any functions and any content 
as separate.



""" Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD""";
Those don't show any wasted vertical space because the application isn't 
maximised, indicating the user doesn't care how much space it takes up. The 
background wastes vertical space in these examples. Furthermore, the space is 
utilized at times, just not when you took the screenshot. The System Settings 
bar contains a search box (Which new users will find useful, not wasteful) and 
the "All Settings" button when a specific item is opened (also useful to new 
users, so they know how to get back). And, the space is available to add new 
functionality later without needing to revamp the application design.



On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 15:28, nick rundy  wrote:







<<>>



Dark Toolbars do draw a distinction, but it is too extreme and not appropriate 
for the context, especially considering that the user has to interact with the 
toolbar to manager the content. It should not be cast in shadow when it is 
something the user needs to interact with regularly. This is BAD design. It's 
like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in shadow with no overhead 
light. Instead a middle color (e.g., gray, even a dark gray) should be used for 
the Toolbars. This provides a "nice distinction" both from the content AND from 
the titlebar & top-panel. I have no problem drawing a clean separation between 
content and the tools that act on that content. But the tools should NOT be 
colored the same as the TITLEBAR and the TOP-PANEL. This is the crux of the 
problem. It inappropriately merges two separate functions and shrouds the tools 
used to manage content in the dark. This is NOT good design.


Point taken about the dark toolbars not being the "cause" of diminishing 
vertical space. But something has to be done about this. I abandoned 
gnome-shell because of 

[Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars vs. Apple Ipad Toolbars (Bad design vs. Good design)

[nick rundy]

Please see the following picture of the Apple Ipad for an example of 
"lightened" black toolbars that are not the same darkness as the OS's top panel 
and represent a good design:  http://i.imgur.com/cfWSy.jpg
Note that although the toolbar is technically "black" it is a "faded/lightened" 
black. That is, it is NOT the same color/shade as the Top-Panel! This is GOOD 
design. This is what I describe and have been arguing for in my previous 
e-mails regarding this topic. There are potent reasons why the Iphone & Ipad 
are such strong sellers. Interface design choices like this are part of the 
reason why these devices are such strong sellers and well liked. Application 
toolbars should NOT be a "dark" color that shroud the tools in darkness. And 
they should NOT be the same color/shade as the Top-Panel that represents the 
OS. Apple's design is very strong. A "dark" top-panel and a "middle-colored" 
toolbar that transitions to the "white-content." 
Why can't Oneiric Ocelot adopt this design pattern? 
  ___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars vs. Apple Ipad Toolbars (Bad design vs. Good design)

[Ian Santopietro]

Respectfully, I don't think that is good design. The gradient on the toolbar
make it seem very heavy. It draws your eye to a section of the UI that A.
isn't content, and B. doesn't do very much. And a flat toolbar would
seem disconnected and cobbled on as an add on, rather than a cohesive part
of the interface.

Looking aside the colors, visual separation between the "toolbar" (which is
really more a titlebar) and the "top panel" makes sense in this case, since
the purpose of the top panel is purely informative; there is no
interactivity with its contents. The problem lies in that the Unity Panel
and the iOS information bar serve entirely different purposes. The Unity
panel is interactive, and hosts many application related functions (due to
the menu bar). Drawing the user into the panel visually help to reinforce
the idea that it isn't separate, and should be clicked on.

Then again, that particular tool bar is wasting an awful lot of vertical
space, and on a device that really needs all the pixels it can get it's
hands on. I would have cut the vertical size of the toolbar in half, at
least, and relocated it's functions to the bottom of the smaller pane on the
left, or replaced them with gestures in this case. iOS seems to make decent
use of the Pull-down-to-refresh gesture, which eliminates one button, New
Folders could be created with an empty placeholder at the bottom (a la gnome
shell and workspaces) and settings could either be taken care of in a global
"settings" app, or also handled via a gesture (it should be used rarely, and
thus not warrant a dedicated button on screen). As for Edit, I can't really
place it anywhere, because the functionality isn't immediately clear to me,
which is a UI design issue itself. Not to mention why there are two of them.

In any case, using a purely touch based UI is not a good model for
developing one that would work on any device, and that is where iOS design
is utterly unsuitable for comparison to Unity anyway.

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:35, nick rundy  wrote:

>  Please see the following picture of the Apple Ipad for an example of
> "lightened" black toolbars that are not the same darkness as the OS's top
> panel and represent a good design:  http://i.imgur.com/cfWSy.jpg
>
> Note that although the toolbar is technically "black" it is a
> "faded/lightened" black. That is, it is NOT the same color/shade as the
> Top-Panel! This is GOOD design. This is what I describe and have been
> arguing for in my previous e-mails regarding this topic. There are potent
> reasons why the Iphone & Ipad are such strong sellers. Interface design
> choices like this are part of the reason why these devices are such strong
> sellers and well liked. Application toolbars should NOT be a "dark" color
> that shroud the tools in darkness. And they should NOT be the same
> color/shade as the Top-Panel that represents the OS. Apple's design is very
> strong. A "dark" top-panel and a "middle-colored" toolbar that transitions
> to the "white-content."
>
> Why can't Oneiric Ocelot adopt this design pattern?
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>


-- 
Ian Santopietro

*Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html*

"Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast
 Ofer middangeard monnum sended"

Pa gur yv y porthaur?

Public GPG key (RSA):
http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp