Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
On 06/03/2011 03:21 AM, Remco wrote: So, for as long as I can remember, people have been asking for a welcome screen in Ubuntu which is presented when a new user first logs in. Today, I started Help and was amazed by how straightforward this looks. This is what needs to be started on first boot! First boot and first login of a "new" user are meaningless. What if Eve installs a system for Adam to use? What if George creates another account to test something? What if Brunhilde installs her 3rd iteration of Ubuntu? What if Vladimir really does login for the first time on his first Ubuntu system, but will feel belittled by anything that looks like hand-holding and gets in the way of exploring everything himself immediately? Part of making a system feel consistent, reliable and predictable is avoiding special cases. A different behavior triggered once is like magic ... While one could say that it should be very obvious and straightforward to access help, that could come at a cost of something else that might be used more often. None of the people I observed using computers ever brought up help, despite that a number of them could have benefited from it. My experience there matches observations and self-reports from others. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:09, Thorsten Wilms wrote: > First boot and first login of a "new" user are meaningless. > > What if Eve installs a system for Adam to use? What if George creates > another account to test something? What if Brunhilde installs her 3rd > iteration of Ubuntu? > > What if Vladimir really does login for the first time on his first Ubuntu > system, but will feel belittled by anything that looks like hand-holding and > gets in the way of exploring everything himself immediately? I think we can ignore feelings of belittlement of adventurous people. They would feel belittled by automatic codec install, bash command installation suggestions; everything that helps new users. For every adventurous person we lose, we will gain 100 users who have no idea what that bar on the left is, what those icons in the top-right are, how you find applications, etc. Help is a perfect introduction for new users (English-only though). Seriously, take a look at Help. It's awesome. > Part of making a system feel consistent, reliable and predictable is > avoiding special cases. A different behavior triggered once is like magic > ... Bringing it up once is not a good idea, I agree. To maximize predictability, Help should be brought up on every login, until the user clicks on a button "Don't show this next time I log in". > While one could say that it should be very obvious and straightforward to > access help, that could come at a cost of something else that might be used > more often. None of the people I observed using computers ever brought up > help, despite that a number of them could have benefited from it. My > experience there matches observations and self-reports from others. I know that most technical people feel like they don't need help. I'm such a person, and I would go to Google before starting Help. That's why it's such a great idea to shove Help into their face the first time they use the computer. It may be annoying at first, but curiosity will take over and they'll start exploring, for example, the "Tips & tricks" section. -- Remco ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] proposal: alt+num navigation in "superviews"
If you press super+w, then you get a view of your open windows. Pressing super+s or pressing super+numX2, then you get similar views. Since I don't know if these have a collective name, I've chosen to call them superviews for the purpose of this email. They have different things in them; windows or workspaces (and perhaps other things in the future), and I'll just call them items for now. When you're in a superview, pressing alt+num has no effect. I think it would be very beneficial if pressing and holding the alt-key would display a number over each item, enabling you to switch between them by using alt+num. The idea is that you should be able to work with superview items in the same way that you work with tabs in most tabbed applications, like Nautilus and Firefox. You should be able to rearrange the items and the numbers should reflect that. This would also be consistent with how the launcher works. Let me demonstrate the benefit of this approach by using some examples. Let's say you have placed gnome-terminal at the 4th position in your launcher. You have lots of open terminal windows that you use for different things at different times. It becomes somewhat difficult, or at least cumbersome to navigate between these windows. But imagine you could press super+44 to get to a superview containing all those windows. You then press alt+1 to get to the first window, alt+2 for the second, etc. If you know that you're not going to use a terminal for a while, then you can just move it out of the way and forget about it until you need it. Or if there is a different terminal that you'll be using more, then you drag it so you get a comfortable alt+num combo to reach it. This would be useful for other kinds of windows too, of course. I use my PC for different things at different times. Sometimes, I make music. Other times, I write software and at other times, I manage my network of VMs en physical servers. That means I have a fairly large number of different highly useful applications, but only a few of them are generically useful enough to place on the launcher, so they become somewhat difficult to get to. "Super+w alt+num" would help very much. Having to use arrow keys (which is difficult for the time being) is cumbersome when you have many windows. It would be useful for workspaces too. I would setup a music workspace, a network management workspace, a general internet workspace, etc. When I want to make music, I'd drag the music workspace "closer" (meaning it would get a lower alt+num combo). The internet workspace would always have alt+1 since it's always useful, whereas the primary workspace I'm working with, would get alt+2, etc. I might want to switch to my network overview workspace, to see graphs, etc but I would hardly ever switch to my software development workspace while I'm making music, so I could let the alt+num combos for workspaces reflect that. What do you think? Is this possible to achieve? Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] proposal: alt+num navigation in "superviews"
On Fri, 2011-06-03 at 15:27 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > If you press super+w, then you get a view of your open windows. Pressing > super+s or pressing super+numX2, then you get similar views. Since I don't > know if these have a collective name, I've chosen to call them superviews > for the purpose of this email. They have different things in them; windows > or workspaces (and perhaps other things in the future), and I'll just call > them items for now. > > When you're in a superview, pressing alt+num has no effect. I think it would > be very beneficial if pressing and holding the alt-key would display a > number > over each item, enabling you to switch between them by using alt+num. > The idea > is that you should be able to work with superview items in the same way that > you work with tabs in most tabbed applications, like Nautilus and > Firefox. You > should be able to rearrange the items and the numbers should reflect > that. This > would also be consistent with how the launcher works. > > Let me demonstrate the benefit of this approach by using some examples. > Let's > say you have placed gnome-terminal at the 4th position in your launcher. > You > have lots of open terminal windows that you use for different things at > different times. It becomes somewhat difficult, or at least cumbersome to > navigate between these windows. But imagine you could press super+44 to > get to a > superview containing all those windows. You then press alt+1 to get to the > first window, alt+2 for the second, etc. If you know that you're not > going to > use a terminal for a while, then you can just move it out of the way and > forget > about it until you need it. Or if there is a different terminal that > you'll be > using more, then you drag it so you get a comfortable alt+num combo to > reach it. > What a super idea. Since going to Unity, I use Super-W quite a lot, being very forgetful of what applications/widows I have open, and where they are. But the only way I have to select one of the windows, is to reach for the mouse and click on it. This is anathema to me as a lover of keyboard short cuts. I hate having to reach for the mouse just to do a simple single action. So numbers on the windows to select them, or some other scheme of keyboard selection would be great. Tony ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
You can read the "Ubuntu welcome center" thread: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05790.html and also the section titled the same in this mail in the "a realistic vision of the next iteration of unity": https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05999.html Here is the LP bug request for the same topic: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/790628 2011/6/3 Remco > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:09, Thorsten Wilms wrote: > > First boot and first login of a "new" user are meaningless. > > > > What if Eve installs a system for Adam to use? What if George creates > > another account to test something? What if Brunhilde installs her 3rd > > iteration of Ubuntu? > > > > What if Vladimir really does login for the first time on his first Ubuntu > > system, but will feel belittled by anything that looks like hand-holding > and > > gets in the way of exploring everything himself immediately? > > I think we can ignore feelings of belittlement of adventurous people. > They would feel belittled by automatic codec install, bash command > installation suggestions; everything that helps new users. > > For every adventurous person we lose, we will gain 100 users who have > no idea what that bar on the left is, what those icons in the > top-right are, how you find applications, etc. > > Help is a perfect introduction for new users (English-only though). > Seriously, take a look at Help. It's awesome. > > > Part of making a system feel consistent, reliable and predictable is > > avoiding special cases. A different behavior triggered once is like magic > > ... > > Bringing it up once is not a good idea, I agree. To maximize > predictability, Help should be brought up on every login, until the > user clicks on a button "Don't show this next time I log in". > > > While one could say that it should be very obvious and straightforward to > > access help, that could come at a cost of something else that might be > used > > more often. None of the people I observed using computers ever brought up > > help, despite that a number of them could have benefited from it. My > > experience there matches observations and self-reports from others. > > I know that most technical people feel like they don't need help. I'm > such a person, and I would go to Google before starting Help. That's > why it's such a great idea to shove Help into their face the first > time they use the computer. It may be annoying at first, but curiosity > will take over and they'll start exploring, for example, the "Tips & > tricks" section. > > -- > Remco > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 16:35, Niklas Rosenqvist wrote: > You can read the "Ubuntu welcome center" thread: > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05790.html > and also the section titled the same in this mail in the "a realistic vision > of the next iteration of unity": > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05999.html > Here is the LP bug request for the same topic: > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/790628 That looks very interesting. I've now read the threads you linked. There seems to be the question of whether to build a new Tour application or show Help on startup. A custom made tour could have a better experience, but I'm not sure it will be done in time for 11.10. Help already exists and only needs a "Don't bug me again" button to make it an acceptable welcome screen. I suggest to go for the Tour application, but fall back to using Help if it's not done in time, or the results are not what we hoped for. What do you think? -- Remco ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
I think the ultimate solution would be a full featured welcome center as shown in the attached mockups and letting people get to do the decision to open Help themselves instead of getting it thrown in their faces. The many benefits of this would be the ability to provide other information as the examples in the mockup. The Linux Mint welcome screen features some information which could be useful for new users: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nl11vFOUjZw/Td5NJ3mjHbI/En0/bVcSvuGGUsw/linux-mint-11_2.png Though I agree to use what we got if nothing else can be done in time :) 2011/6/3 Remco > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 16:35, Niklas Rosenqvist > wrote: > > You can read the "Ubuntu welcome center" thread: > > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05790.html > > and also the section titled the same in this mail in the "a realistic > vision > > of the next iteration of unity": > > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05999.html > > Here is the LP bug request for the same topic: > > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/790628 > > That looks very interesting. I've now read the threads you linked. > There seems to be the question of whether to build a new Tour > application or show Help on startup. A custom made tour could have a > better experience, but I'm not sure it will be done in time for 11.10. > Help already exists and only needs a "Don't bug me again" button to > make it an acceptable welcome screen. I suggest to go for the Tour > application, but fall back to using Help if it's not done in time, or > the results are not what we hoped for. What do you think? > > -- > Remco > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
Hy! I agree with the idea of an ubuntu tour. And I think, as it have been said before that the chosen app must be fully and early translatable. I read few days ago in launchpad oneiric blueprints about a new way to provide translations. Maybe it could help. I can't find the link right now but as soon as I can I post it. Kevin Le 3 juin 2011 17:37, "Remco" a écrit : > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 16:35, Niklas Rosenqvist > wrote: >> You can read the "Ubuntu welcome center" thread: >> https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05790.html >> and also the section titled the same in this mail in the "a realistic vision >> of the next iteration of unity": >> https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05999.html >> Here is the LP bug request for the same topic: >> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/790628 > > That looks very interesting. I've now read the threads you linked. > There seems to be the question of whether to build a new Tour > application or show Help on startup. A custom made tour could have a > better experience, but I'm not sure it will be done in time for 11.10. > Help already exists and only needs a "Don't bug me again" button to > make it an acceptable welcome screen. I suggest to go for the Tour > application, but fall back to using Help if it's not done in time, or > the results are not what we hoped for. What do you think? > > -- > Remco > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Remco wrote: > I think we can ignore feelings of belittlement of adventurous people. > They would feel belittled by automatic codec install, bash command > installation suggestions; everything that helps new users. Oh my, are you serious? There is a huge difference between a "welcome tour" (remember XP?) and useful features, automation and intuitive interfaces. > For every adventurous person we lose, we will gain 100 users who have > no idea what that bar on the left is, what those icons in the > top-right are, how you find applications, etc. If they don't have an idea what to do with those bars and icons we need to throw out Unity and start from scratch. > Help is a perfect introduction for new users (English-only though). > Seriously, take a look at Help. It's awesome. See, that's the problem. No one does. Neither the "adventurous" nor the "noobs" who could need it. > Bringing it up once is not a good idea, I agree. To maximize > predictability, Help should be brought up on every login, until the > user clicks on a button "Don't show this next time I log in". A nag screen, how lovely! > I know that most technical people feel like they don't need help. I'm > such a person, and I would go to Google before starting Help. That's > why it's such a great idea to shove Help into their face the first > time they use the computer. It may be annoying at first, but curiosity > will take over and they'll start exploring, for example, the "Tips & > tricks" section. No they won't. The screen will nag me and the people who should read the tips and tricks will nag me too ;) Even if they did read it,it wouldn't make a difference. Appeal to authority: I say this based on my experience in "tech support". Do Android and iOS need a welcome tour? No. And neither should we. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] proposal: alt+num navigation in "superviews"
In the spread view and workspace view Win+Num still works, adding another numbering scheme would be quite confusing. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Unity quicklist shortcut
First of all, a big thanks to all of the Unity developers. I've been loving the user experience ever since I upgraded to Natty. I'm excited for what is to come. One of the features I really like are the static and dynamic quicklists. However, being a keyboard junkie, I prefer to control things from the keyboard as much as possible. Yes, I do know about alt+f1 and then the arrow keys to navigate the launchers and their quicklists. Since there is already Super+Number for an individual launcher, plus Super+Shift+Number to launch a new one, I thought it might be appropriate to add something like Super+Control+Number to pop up the quicklist for a given launcher. I have attempted to write a patch for this, which mostly works. What's lacking is I can't get keyboard navigation to work, perhaps I'm not giving the quicklist focus. I'm unsure of how to do this, so I thought I would share my branch here and when someone familiar with the code had a moment, they could take a look and see what I might be missing. My branch is here: lp:~nafai/unity/quicklist-shortcut Thanks again for all of your work and I hope to be able to help contribute even more to Unity in the future. -- Travis B. Hartwell Software Toolsmith Blogs: http://iam.travishartwell.net/ http://the.softwaretoolsmith.com/ Where to find me: http://findme.travishartwell.net/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] proposal: alt+num navigation in "superviews"
On Fri, 2011-06-03 at 18:48 +0200, Ed Lin wrote: > In the spread view and workspace view Win+Num still works, adding > another numbering scheme would be quite confusing. > It's not that immediately obvious which number on the launcher relates to which window. But anyway, I have found that once you have the windows up on screen with Super-W you can navigate among them with Ctrl-Alt and the arrow keys. Tony ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
I think that a tour for ubuntu is a must have. It should be interactive showing users how to do this and this action stepby step. Maybe it could have some links to install codecs, flash player... I also think that Ubuntu should have full translated isos at least for main languages. Il giorno 03/giu/2011, alle ore 19:08, Ed Lin ha scritto: > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Remco wrote: >> I think we can ignore feelings of belittlement of adventurous people. >> They would feel belittled by automatic codec install, bash command >> installation suggestions; everything that helps new users. > > Oh my, are you serious? > There is a huge difference between a "welcome tour" (remember XP?) and > useful features, automation and intuitive interfaces. > >> For every adventurous person we lose, we will gain 100 users who have >> no idea what that bar on the left is, what those icons in the >> top-right are, how you find applications, etc. > > If they don't have an idea what to do with those bars and icons we > need to throw out Unity and start from scratch. > >> Help is a perfect introduction for new users (English-only though). >> Seriously, take a look at Help. It's awesome. > > See, that's the problem. No one does. Neither the "adventurous" nor > the "noobs" who could need it. > >> Bringing it up once is not a good idea, I agree. To maximize >> predictability, Help should be brought up on every login, until the >> user clicks on a button "Don't show this next time I log in". > > A nag screen, how lovely! > >> I know that most technical people feel like they don't need help. I'm >> such a person, and I would go to Google before starting Help. That's >> why it's such a great idea to shove Help into their face the first >> time they use the computer. It may be annoying at first, but curiosity >> will take over and they'll start exploring, for example, the "Tips & >> tricks" section. > > No they won't. The screen will nag me and the people who should read > the tips and tricks will nag me too ;) > Even if they did read it,it wouldn't make a difference. Appeal to > authority: I say this based on my experience in "tech support". > > Do Android and iOS need a welcome tour? No. And neither should we. > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] proposal: alt+num navigation in "superviews"
On 03. juni 2011 18:48, Ed Lin wrote: In the spread view and workspace view Win+Num still works, adding another numbering scheme would be quite confusing I don't understand why that is. It works this way in Firefox, Nautilus and lots of other tabbed applications. Why is that not confusing? I propose that the windows would get a number on them if you press and hold alt down. If anything, this would reduce a little bit of confusion if a user presses alt by mistake. In all other senses, it would work exactly like tabs work in Firefox and Nautilus. This is both efficient and friendly, I think. But please elaborate. Jo-Erlend ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] proposal: alt+num navigation in "superviews"
On 03. juni 2011 16:05, Tony Pursell wrote: What a super idea. Since going to Unity, I use Super-W quite a lot, being very forgetful of what applications/widows I have open, and where they are. But the only way I have to select one of the windows, is to reach for the mouse and click on it. This is anathema to me as a lover of keyboard short cuts. I hate having to reach for the mouse just to do a simple single action. So numbers on the windows to select them, or some other scheme of keyboard selection would be great. Tony Thanks. Yes, I too use super+w all the time. I prefer that kind of overview to the alt+tab thing. I don't want to flip through windows. I know exactly which one I want, so I want it right away. And adding keyboard shortcuts when they aren't in use, doesn't interfere with users expectations as long as pressing alt clearly shows numbers on top of each windows. I think that's quite deductive when used with super with the launcher. Jo-Erlend ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
I agree that some sort of Welcome to Ubuntu would be nice to have. One easy way of achieving that, would be to simply run a browser in full screen with a stretched image of a default Ubuntu installs first desktop. We would then use image maps with hover to display information about what the different things are and how to use them. Wouldn't that be both efficient and easily implemented? Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
wrote:
> I agree that some sort of Welcome to Ubuntu would be
> nice to have. One easy way of achieving that, would be
> to simply run a browser in full screen with a stretched
> image of a default Ubuntu installs first desktop. We would
> then use image maps with hover to display information
> about what the different things are and how to use them.
>
> Wouldn't that be both efficient and easily implemented?
Yes it would, and probably quite confusing as well :)
It is a very good idea (presumably inspired by the images at [1]?),
however I feel it would have to be fairly heavily framed to avoid
users getting confused ("Why is my computer on twice"? is a question I
don't really want to get asked).
That said, if a link to something like that could be added to the Help
main page (and perhaps emphasized), then I think it would make a great
resource.
Cheers,
Evan
[1] http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/whats-new
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Re: [Ayatana] proposal: alt+num navigation in "superviews"
What about adding numbers a la the launcher item as super is continually held down? That way, it's easy to tell which number keys activate which window. On Jun 3, 2011 4:37 PM, "Jo-Erlend Schinstad" wrote: ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting Started
On Fri, 3 Jun 2011 14:13:19 +0200 Remco wrote: > Help is a perfect introduction for new users (English-only > though). Seriously, take a look at Help. It's awesome. As it is now, help isn't all that easy to find unless you know your way around. At least, I *think* I am the one that pinned it to the left bar, and it didn't ship that way. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
