Re: [Ayatana] Focus follows pointer (Was: Re: Understanding the menu problem.)
On 05/31/2011 09:28 PM, Ed Lin wrote: GIMP is an awful example :P Its interface is gimped, the WM isn't the right place to right it. Do you have any other example where you'd miss auto rise specifically? What many perceive as a shortcoming of GIMP helps me to work efficiently :p Yes. I also use overlapping setups of IRC and Email clients or combinations of editors, terminals and browsers (e.g. terminal, Firefox and Emacs wor web development). Anyway, would you not agree that autorise is not a good default setting and would cause a lot of frustration with new users? Therefore putting it back and first trying to get Unity right in the default settings got to be priority, I said before that I don't think FFP and auto-raise would be good defaults as things are, as a number of things would have to change to make it a smooth experience. Unity should first of all present one consistent experience. I do see it as a drawback if aspects of that are not compatible with common customizations, but there are always drawbacks. If we are going there (the speed argument) we have "power users" in mind. I don't think they'll have troubles remembering keyboard shortcuts they use every day. For "ordinary people", yes, that's why Unity should work great with just the mouse (It doesn't yet, for example the spread view, super+w, isn't exposed at all). Training may shorten the time required for recall, but it can't eliminate it. Especially not for shortcuts outside of a limited set of the most frequently used. Like I said, the required focused thought causes a blind-spot regarding time perception. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Application Menus in Unity
Hello guys, The essential problem of the global menu is that its behavior is fixed, unchangeable, locked and non-configurable. This is the first needed step , before discussing anything about changing the default settings. Right now the users have only two options : like it or dislike it. There is no possibility to disable the autohide feature. And it's not possible to disable the global menu (uninstalling the package, or editing the bashrc, are not acceptable ways to disable). Having such config options would greatly decrease the amount of discussions on this topic : it's easier to be happy with some default settings if it's possible to tweak them ... Just for comparision : i haven't noticed any discussions on ayatana about changing the default applications in the launcher. Why ? Simply because it's possible to remove the unused icons (ex.LibreOffice ) and add others. So there are no people irritated by the default selection ; hence no vivid discussions ... I am not sure why Unity was delivered in 11.04 without a minimal set of config options regarding the "global menu". So I can only guess : it is intentional_by_design. This is worrying if true ... -- Adrian M On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 19:15, Niklas Rosenqvist wrote: > Hi Tony, thanks for your contribution! This was a very good example on why > it should always be visible! You can find many more arguments for why we > should always have the menu visible in the "Global menu in Oneiric Ocelot > (11.10)" thread. > 2011/5/31 Tony Pursell >> >> Hi All >> >> Something happened to me just recently that makes me think it is not a >> good thing to remove application menus from view. >> >> Currently, I only see application menus when I hover over the panel (or >> hit F10). >> >> Recently, I was trying to enable the printer attached to my desktop PC >> and in the Printing dialogue's Properties, for my printer, under >> Policies, it told me 'Not published - see server settings'. I had no >> idea what 'server' it referred to and I had to resort to the user's >> mailing list for help. >> >> There is, of course, a Server menu in the application menu, but with the >> application menu out of view, I had no idea it was there. >> >> So the point I'm making is, that without then application menu visible, >> essential functionality may be hidden from the user. Any arrangement >> that requires the user to take action to reveal the application menu can >> mean that a user, particularly the less experienced user, may lose out >> on full enjoyment of the programs functions. >> >> Tony >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Application Menus in Unity
"Make it configurable" is not the answer to a (poor?) design. Configurability can be a nightmare, you need to not only make sure that module A works with module B, but that module A (configured in X, Y, or Z behavior) works with module B (configured in X, Y, or Z behavior). Even if everything were configurable, there would need to be a sensible default, and we'd be right back at this discussion anyway. > Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 15:23:36 +0300 > From: syra...@gmail.com > To: niklas.s.rosenqv...@gmail.com > CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Application Menus in Unity > > Hello guys, > > The essential problem of the global menu is that its behavior is > fixed, unchangeable, locked and non-configurable. This is the first > needed step , before discussing anything about changing the default > settings. > > Right now the users have only two options : like it or dislike it. > There is no possibility to disable the autohide feature. And it's not > possible to disable the global menu (uninstalling the package, or > editing the bashrc, are not acceptable ways to disable). > > Having such config options would greatly decrease the amount of > discussions on this topic : it's easier to be happy with some > default settings if it's possible to tweak them ... > > Just for comparision : i haven't noticed any discussions on ayatana > about changing the default applications in the launcher. Why ? > Simply because it's possible to remove the unused icons > (ex.LibreOffice ) and add others. So there are no people irritated > by the default selection ; hence no vivid discussions ... > > > I am not sure why Unity was delivered in 11.04 without a minimal set > of config options regarding the "global menu". So I can only guess : > it is intentional_by_design. This is worrying if true ... > > > -- > Adrian M > > > > On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 19:15, Niklas Rosenqvist > wrote: > > Hi Tony, thanks for your contribution! This was a very good example on why > > it should always be visible! You can find many more arguments for why we > > should always have the menu visible in the "Global menu in Oneiric Ocelot > > (11.10)" thread. > > 2011/5/31 Tony Pursell > >> > >> Hi All > >> > >> Something happened to me just recently that makes me think it is not a > >> good thing to remove application menus from view. > >> > >> Currently, I only see application menus when I hover over the panel (or > >> hit F10). > >> > >> Recently, I was trying to enable the printer attached to my desktop PC > >> and in the Printing dialogue's Properties, for my printer, under > >> Policies, it told me 'Not published - see server settings'. I had no > >> idea what 'server' it referred to and I had to resort to the user's > >> mailing list for help. > >> > >> There is, of course, a Server menu in the application menu, but with the > >> application menu out of view, I had no idea it was there. > >> > >> So the point I'm making is, that without then application menu visible, > >> essential functionality may be hidden from the user. Any arrangement > >> that requires the user to take action to reveal the application menu can > >> mean that a user, particularly the less experienced user, may lose out > >> on full enjoyment of the programs functions. > >> > >> Tony > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > >> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > ___ > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Application Menus in Unity
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 09:27, Mark Curtis wrote: > "Make it configurable" is not the answer to a (poor?) design. > On the other hand, when an idealized one-size-fits all utopian design remains elusive after many months of searching... -- Jeremy Nickurak -= Email/XMPP: -= jer...@nickurak.ca =- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Application Menus in Unity
You are quite right, of course. It would be great if there was a server button on that tab, or on the icon bar even. But this is just one example. You simply cannot say to all developers that they must now consider the fact that Ubuntu Unity users do not have the menu in view, and so they must go back to all their applications and see if they need to change them. Tony On Tue, 2011-05-31 at 20:43 +0200, Joern Konopka wrote: > Im Not gonna try to destroy your Point cause i'm Not currently using > Unity and therefore i don't have the Same Experience, but the " ..See > Server Settings" got my ears ringing. > Wouldnt the preferable way be to replace this notice with an actual > Button that will Open the Server Settings right Away? > > http://twitter.com/cldx3000 > > On 31.05.2011, at 18:15, Niklas Rosenqvist > wrote: > > > > > Hi Tony, thanks for your contribution! This was a very good example > > on why it should always be visible! You can find many more arguments > > for why we should always have the menu visible in the "Global menu > > in Oneiric Ocelot (11.10)" thread. > > > > 2011/5/31 Tony Pursell > > Hi All > > > > Something happened to me just recently that makes me think > > it is not a > > good thing to remove application menus from view. > > > > Currently, I only see application menus when I hover over > > the panel (or > > hit F10). > > > > Recently, I was trying to enable the printer attached to my > > desktop PC > > and in the Printing dialogue's Properties, for my printer, > > under > > Policies, it told me 'Not published - see server settings'. > > I had no > > idea what 'server' it referred to and I had to resort to the > > user's > > mailing list for help. > > > > There is, of course, a Server menu in the application menu, > > but with the > > application menu out of view, I had no idea it was there. > > > > So the point I'm making is, that without then application > > menu visible, > > essential functionality may be hidden from the user. Any > > arrangement > > that requires the user to take action to reveal the > > application menu can > > mean that a user, particularly the less experienced user, > > may lose out > > on full enjoyment of the programs functions. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > ___ > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Application Menus in Unity
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 18:27, Mark Curtis wrote: > "Make it configurable" is not the answer to a (poor?) design. Configurability is about letting the user adapt the working environment to his/her particular needs. > Configurability can be a nightmare, you need to not only make sure that > module A works with module B, but that module A (configured in X, Y, or Z > behavior) works with module B (configured in X, Y, or Z behavior). I'm not sure about what modules do you have in mind. What I am thinking about is to be able to choose things like : - global menu enabled or not - global menu autohiding or not - control the position of every item of the launcher - "ubuntu" button opens either the dash or a classic menu - enable/disable various lenses - display Trash or not - display Workspaces inside the launcher , or not . Or , display it alone in the right bottom corner , or in the middle of the screen whatever. - etc, etc, etc > Even if everything were configurable, there would need to be a sensible > default, and we'd be right back at this discussion anyway. A "delayed" discussion would have better results. When people have the chance to try various configurations they can advocate a specific default setting based on live experience, not on static "mockups". >> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 15:23:36 +0300 >> From: syra...@gmail.com >> To: niklas.s.rosenqv...@gmail.com >> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Application Menus in Unity >> >> Hello guys, >> >> The essential problem of the global menu is that its behavior is >> fixed, unchangeable, locked and non-configurable. This is the first >> needed step , before discussing anything about changing the default >> settings. >> >> Right now the users have only two options : like it or dislike it. >> There is no possibility to disable the autohide feature. And it's not >> possible to disable the global menu (uninstalling the package, or >> editing the bashrc, are not acceptable ways to disable). >> >> Having such config options would greatly decrease the amount of >> discussions on this topic : it's easier to be happy with some >> default settings if it's possible to tweak them ... >> >> Just for comparision : i haven't noticed any discussions on ayatana >> about changing the default applications in the launcher. Why ? >> Simply because it's possible to remove the unused icons >> (ex.LibreOffice ) and add others. So there are no people irritated >> by the default selection ; hence no vivid discussions ... >> >> >> I am not sure why Unity was delivered in 11.04 without a minimal set >> of config options regarding the "global menu". So I can only guess : >> it is intentional_by_design. This is worrying if true ... >> >> >> -- >> Adrian M >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 19:15, Niklas Rosenqvist >> wrote: >> > Hi Tony, thanks for your contribution! This was a very good example on >> > why >> > it should always be visible! You can find many more arguments for why we >> > should always have the menu visible in the "Global menu in Oneiric >> > Ocelot >> > (11.10)" thread. >> > 2011/5/31 Tony Pursell >> >> >> >> Hi All >> >> >> >> Something happened to me just recently that makes me think it is not a >> >> good thing to remove application menus from view. >> >> >> >> Currently, I only see application menus when I hover over the panel (or >> >> hit F10). >> >> >> >> Recently, I was trying to enable the printer attached to my desktop PC >> >> and in the Printing dialogue's Properties, for my printer, under >> >> Policies, it told me 'Not published - see server settings'. I had no >> >> idea what 'server' it referred to and I had to resort to the user's >> >> mailing list for help. >> >> >> >> There is, of course, a Server menu in the application menu, but with >> >> the >> >> application menu out of view, I had no idea it was there. >> >> >> >> So the point I'm making is, that without then application menu visible, >> >> essential functionality may be hidden from the user. Any arrangement >> >> that requires the user to take action to reveal the application menu >> >> can >> >> mean that a user, particularly the less experienced user, may lose out >> >> on full enjoyment of the programs functions. >> >> >> >> Tony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >> >> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >> >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >> > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> > >> > >> >> ___ >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.n
