[Ayatana] Thoughts on Unity design
Hi, my name is Niklas Rosenqvist and I recently sent this message to David Barth who forwarded it to a couple of people and I thought I might post it here as well to see what reactions it might get. I'm fairly new to the ubuntu community and I just joined the ayatana mailing list so forgive me if I'm doing this the wrong way :) This what I sent to David: "(...) I've been following the development of Unity closely since the project got announced and it truly is a revolution in many ways for the Ubuntu/Linux desktop. I've been playing around with beta2 lately and feel that there are quite a few areas which need further improvement. Since I'm rather new to the Ubuntu community I don't really know how to influence the development of Ubuntu. Therefore I thought I might give a shot at contacting you and maybe you could forward this or something. I would greatly appreciate if I got some response to this, whether it's good ideas or why not. Firstly I want to discuss lenses. Lenses are a really clever new feature in Ubuntu though to me they feel way to bloaty to be a nice integration to the shell. If I haven't mistakenly overlooked a setting, the lenses are supposed to be launched from the launcher and can not easily be found from anywhere else. So the lenses take up a whole lot of room in the launcher, though the main (or only) difference between the lenses is that they search for different things, but they all search. If I would have an AskUbuntu lens, Reddit lens, YouTube lens etc. it would take up a lot of room. Wouldn't it be smarter to just have a Lenses application which you from there choose which lens to search with? When you click the Ubuntu icon in the upper left corner and get presented with the a couple of shortcuts, why not present the lenses “Applications”, “Files and Folders”, “More apps” at the top and then instead of the current fourth lens, or where the below shortcuts are (“Browse the web” etc.) present the user with ”More lenses” where you can see all the currently installed lenses? At the moment you can view all installed applications in the ”Applications”-lens. It's easy to search for a program but sometimes maybe you don't know the name of the program or just want to know what is installed on your system so it makes sense to have the ”Installed applications” category. But if you have 100+ applications installed then it gets really tedious to scroll through that list since they are all sorted in a grid layout. The lenses should really benefit from having an option to sort results as lists or other alternatives so it's easy to scroll through the result and not having to scan both the width and height of the screen. Another feature which the lenses should benefit from is a ”back”-button where needed. Like in the lens which opens when you click the Ubuntu icon. The Ubuntu button separates from the launchers perfectly and you understand that it has another function than the rest of the launchers. But the launcher's trash icon looks exactly as a regular launcher (which I guess it is, but it's function is more integrated into the system). It would be better distinguished from the rest of the launchers if it had a unique look, like the Ubuntu button. Why not make a divided grey button down there with both the trashcan and the now seemingly gone “show desktop“-button, with the same icon theme as the Ubuntu button and the panel? I think that the workspace switcher also should be down here if it can be added elegantly, it really feels out of place to have it as a launcher. That the settings applications have all been organized into the “System settings” application is great. It's a nice and tidy way to administrate your system. Although that it lacks an Unity configuration application (like the CompizConfig Settings Manager Unity plugin) is just wrong. Those kind of settings should be easy to access and not require an extra application. Either include CCSM or create a Unity specific app (I favor the second option). The configurations in the CCSM Unity plugin lacks but one feature, to be able to configure the launcher transparency and not only the panel transparency. As default I think it has a too low opacity which can make the icons hard to distinguish when viewed over a full screen web page with the background light set to toggle or off. I also fully understand the need to have a delay to open the launcher when it hides for a window but the delay is far to long and pauses the work flow. I suggest that half the time should be default (or make this time a setting). It might also be useful to be able to handle the window shadow size from the system settings, without installation of another application. The “aero-snap”-feature is really nice and makes it easier for handling open windows. When you move a window to the edge of the screen with normal speed the animation looks good as it expands over the screen, but when you move it closer pixel by pixel then it just looks buggy. Why make the animat
Re: [Ayatana] Ideas for Unity Design Tweaks
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Anthony Scire wrote: > Hello, > > I've been using Unity for about a week now -- which makes me perfectly > qualified to critique every nuance of it! ;-) About as much as the rest of us :) > But seriously, overall, I like it. Maximizing a window has beautiful > results, and I really enjoy the use of Meta+# to switch quickly to > other applications (when I remember to do it). I spend a lot of time, > however, working with multiple windows in a sort of jumbled mess. But > there's a method to my madness. And I'm not the only one with > long-standing personal desktop usage traditions, as I'm sure you're > all aware. > > Anyway, the global menu bar is not compatible with the way I work, > especially since I don't know if a window has a menu until I hover my > mouse over the top bar. Also, I've long been of the habit of putting > certain windows (*cough* IM windows) all the way toward the bottom > right of the screen, which makes that window's menu appearing in the > upper left all the more annoying. > > My mockup applies nearly exclusively to scenarios where there isn't a > maximized window. There are four main changes, as follows: > > 1. At some point recently, I read a Unity usability study which > indicated that the Home Button is not conspicuous enough to new users. > My solution to this is to make it as large as the other buttons on > the Launcher panel, but do not depart from the top panel. The idea I > have is that, by default, it will be a big, round button, as shown in > the mockup. But if both > > - a window is maximized, and > - the Launcher panel is hidden (options allow the Launcher panel > to never hide), > > it will shrink to fit the top panel as it currently does. I imagine a > transitional animation of the logo growing / shrinking as the mouse > cursor is moved into the upper left corner -- the same action which > most quickly invokes the launcher panel when it is hidden. This is more or less identical to part of the idea I put forward recently on this list at [1], prompted by the same study at [2]. Given that the two of us have come up with the same solution more or less independently, it's obviously a good one ;) > 2. The menu bar should, in some way, still be built into its window. > The way I propose is to have a button appear on the title bar, a-la > Firefox 4. Hovering the mouse over this button will reveal the menu. > Mouse actions on the "button" should be the same as any other part of > the title bar, just that the mouse-over event will reveal the > drop-down menus stacked vertically. The label on the button should be > the same as currently appears in the global menu bar, i.e. "Firefox > Web Browser". Then next to that, if the text is any different, the > regular window title will appear. > > Hitting Alt should drop down this menu, as well. I'm not convinced about this. I know several people who aren't happy with the FF4-style menus because it requires an extra click to access anything (confused about the hover you mention - would the user have to hover, wait, then move sideways without leaving the window to access menus? seems finicky). Also, this would presumably face the same discovery issues as the global menu does now, as documented in the usability study. The current system is definitely a problem though. > 3. With #2 done, the section of the top panel containing the global > menu can be removed entirely, leaving only the Indicators and Home > Button. This would increase workspace, particularly on high > resolution wide screens. The indicators will always be visible, and > there should probably be some rounded edge cut-off where the > indicators end. I like this, in general, but it is of course predicated on the final solution to #2. > 4. Not entirely related, but the Workspace Switcher should not be in > the middle of the Launcher panel by default. It should be positioned > statically, either just below the Home Button or just above the Trash > (I understand Mark insists that the Trash be at the bottom, no matter > what). This will make it slightly more accessible via mouse, as its > position can be memorized, regardless of how many applications are > open. I agree. Where it is now is strange, especially since it can't be moved (whereas the icons both above and below it can). Just my two cents, Evan [1] https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05586.html [2] http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Thoughts on Unity design
I am too have been for a long time a Ubuntu's fan. However, I am not trying to be negative but... I would say that Unity's design is way far behind GNOME Shell in Fedora 15. I recommend anybody in this email list try out Fedora 15 & GNOME Shell and learn from their simplicity. (Just my thought, no offense). After couple days get along with Fedora 15 & GNOME Shell I feel that GNOME Shell is more newbie-friendly and productive than Unity. I think Ubuntu should reconsider going back to GNOME... On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Niklas Rosenqvist < niklas.s.rosenqv...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, my name is Niklas Rosenqvist and I recently sent this message to > David Barth who forwarded it to a couple of people and I thought I > might post it here as well to see what reactions it might get. I'm > fairly new to the ubuntu community and I just joined the ayatana > mailing list so forgive me if I'm doing this the wrong way :) > > This what I sent to David: > > "(...) I've been following the development of Unity closely since the > project got announced and it truly is a revolution in many ways for > the Ubuntu/Linux desktop. I've been playing around with beta2 lately > and feel that there are quite a few areas which need further > improvement. Since I'm rather new to the Ubuntu community I don't > really know how to influence the development of Ubuntu. Therefore I > thought I might give a shot at contacting you and maybe you could > forward this or something. I would greatly appreciate if I got some > response to this, whether it's good ideas or why not. > > Firstly I want to discuss lenses. Lenses are a really clever new > feature in Ubuntu though to me they feel way to bloaty to be a nice > integration to the shell. If I haven't mistakenly overlooked a > setting, the lenses are supposed to be launched from the launcher and > can not easily be found from anywhere else. So the lenses take up a > whole lot of room in the launcher, though the main (or only) > difference between the lenses is that they search for different > things, but they all search. If I would have an AskUbuntu lens, Reddit > lens, YouTube lens etc. it would take up a lot of room. Wouldn't it be > smarter to just have a Lenses application which you from there choose > which lens to search with? When you click the Ubuntu icon in the upper > left corner and get presented with the a couple of shortcuts, why not > present the lenses “Applications”, “Files and Folders”, “More apps” at > the top and then instead of the current fourth lens, or where the > below shortcuts are (“Browse the web” etc.) present the user with > ”More lenses” where you can see all the currently installed lenses? > > At the moment you can view all installed applications in the > ”Applications”-lens. It's easy to search for a program but sometimes > maybe you don't know the name of the program or just want to know what > is installed on your system so it makes sense to have the ”Installed > applications” category. But if you have 100+ applications installed > then it gets really tedious to scroll through that list since they are > all sorted in a grid layout. The lenses should really benefit from > having an option to sort results as lists or other alternatives so > it's easy to scroll through the result and not having to scan both the > width and height of the screen. > > Another feature which the lenses should benefit from is a > ”back”-button where needed. Like in the lens which opens when you > click the Ubuntu icon. > > The Ubuntu button separates from the launchers perfectly and you > understand that it has another function than the rest of the > launchers. But the launcher's trash icon looks exactly as a regular > launcher (which I guess it is, but it's function is more integrated > into the system). It would be better distinguished from the rest of > the launchers if it had a unique look, like the Ubuntu button. Why not > make a divided grey button down there with both the trashcan and the > now seemingly gone “show desktop“-button, with the same icon theme as > the Ubuntu button and the panel? I think that the workspace switcher > also should be down here if it can be added elegantly, it really feels > out of place to have it as a launcher. > > That the settings applications have all been organized into the > “System settings” application is great. It's a nice and tidy way to > administrate your system. Although that it lacks an Unity > configuration application (like the CompizConfig Settings Manager > Unity plugin) is just wrong. Those kind of settings should be easy to > access and not require an extra application. Either include CCSM or > create a Unity specific app (I favor the second option). > > The configurations in the CCSM Unity plugin lacks but one feature, to > be able to configure the launcher transparency and not only the panel > transparency. As default I think it has a too low opacity which can > make the icons hard to distinguish when viewed over a full s
Re: [Ayatana] Thoughts on Unity design
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Phong Cao wrote: > I am too have been for a long time a Ubuntu's fan. However, I am not trying > to be negative but... I would say that Unity's design is way far behind > GNOME Shell in Fedora 15. I recommend anybody in this email list try out > Fedora 15 & GNOME Shell and learn from their simplicity. (Just my thought, > no offense). After couple days get along with Fedora 15 & GNOME Shell I feel > that GNOME Shell is more newbie-friendly and productive than Unity. I think > Ubuntu should reconsider going back to GNOME.. I have not used Gnome Shell extensively, however I do quite like Unity, at least compared to Gnome2. I'm curious what specific things in Gnome Shell you find superior to Unity, and why. If you can be more specific, it will help us correct those problems in the next version of Unity. Thanks, Evan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Remember window positions
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Ed Lin wrote: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Vishnoo wrote: >> On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 21:19 +0200, Ed Lin wrote: >>>Secondly, it's broken. Opening another window of the same >>>class/role/whatever shouldn't put it exactly on top of the other one >>>but cascaded so both titlebars are visible. See KDE, Windows and OS X >>>for a correct implementation. I have to correct this statement. KWin does not seem to correctly implement the remember position feature. I clearly remember I somehow triggered the desired behavior but I can no longer reproduce in KDE 4.6 Therefore to anyone interested in closing this longstanding issue (and as a tl;dr for my previous post): Please have a look at the implementation in OS X and/or Windows. Their window managers are the only ones having this feature by default and fully transparent to the user. Their implementations have been tested and used over decades now - and they are surprisingly similar... I wouldn't deviate from them without serious long term usability testing. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Ideas for Unity Design Tweaks
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Evan Huus wrote: > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Anthony Scire wrote: >> 2. The menu bar should, in some way, still be built into its window. >> The way I propose is to have a button appear on the title bar, a-la >> Firefox 4. Hovering the mouse over this button will reveal the menu. >> Mouse actions on the "button" should be the same as any other part of >> the title bar, just that the mouse-over event will reveal the >> drop-down menus stacked vertically. The label on the button should be >> the same as currently appears in the global menu bar, i.e. "Firefox >> Web Browser". Then next to that, if the text is any different, the >> regular window title will appear. >> >> Hitting Alt should drop down this menu, as well. > > I'm not convinced about this. I know several people who aren't happy > with the FF4-style menus because it requires an extra click to access > anything (confused about the hover you mention - would the user have > to hover, wait, then move sideways without leaving the window to > access menus? seems finicky). Also, this would presumably face the > same discovery issues as the global menu does now, as documented in > the usability study. > > The current system is definitely a problem though. > Ah, the menubar again. Let me quickly outline the problem: There are very different kinds of users: #1 -the keyboard junkie: Never uses the mouse unless he has to, menubar must be accessible via keyboard. Most important function: It severs as a lookup table for all available combinations. After having used a particular application for a while and having memorized all relevant functions he'll prefer to keep the menubar hidden entirely. The placement of the menubar doesn't much matter that much to him. Making it optionally hidden and only showing it when pressing the alt key would be the perfect solution for this kind of user. #2-the eternal noob He loves nothing more than simple, predictable, repeatable and consistent. He doesn't care about speed and probably less about maximising screen estate. He'll use the menubar to cut and paste even though friends and family repeatedly explain how ctrl+x/v and even toolbar icons or the right-click context menu is so much faster. No, edit->paste is what he learned in his Windows Office 97 or earlier days and that's what he'll keep using till they rip the mouse from his cold, dead hands. The clear, simple, textual hierarchy gives him confidence and safety. So, don't mess with it! This includes replacing the menubar with a single menu button as proposed above. These are the two extremes I guess, there are many shades in between: #3-the hip he wants nice, flashy and modern. Usability comes second as longs the look is right He'll long for modern interfaces like he's used to from his smartphone and the modern browser he uses for facebook and youtube (there isn't much else he uses the computer for). He won't even notice if the menubar moves or is gone entirely as longs as the remaining interface is fun to use and exposes all required controls via nice buttons and icons. #4-the workaholic The OS and it's GUI are just another thing in the way of getting things done. Don't nag him while he's working! He'll work with a very few selected applications, email, word and a browser. On his portable device he wants to use all the screen estate for his work, not for fancy interface controls. Menubar or other interface elements, it doesn't really matter as longs as it gets the job done in the most efficient way. He'll complain loudly about any change but if it's for the better he'll soon calm down again and actually be very grateful. Give him a maximised Writer and Browser, no unnecessary bar and titles and he's happy. In his case the Firefox style menu button is a bad idea. It adds a whole additional hierarchy thereby increasing complexity and time to access typically by about one third, example: Edit->Paste would become Menu->Edit->Paste. Now let's see how we stack up. Unity improved things for the "hip" and the "workaholic". A new interface with Compiz effects and a certain Mac/iOS inspired look and feel is a win for the hipster. Compared to GNOME 2 Unity gets rid of three panels (60 pixels or so?) vertical space which results in more text/content visible for our workaholic. The keyboard junkie will appreciate the new keyboard friendly launcher and furthermore stay out of the menubar discussion that largely focuses on Fitts's Law and counting mouse clicks. Nothing he ever cared about. But why is it so prominently on the top of the screen if he never intends to make much use of it, why can't it be hidden as an option to maximise the rows visible in vim/emacs? As for our second guy: Doesn't look so good. Where is the menu gone? I can't find it! Up there you say? I still don't see anything. Also, if he uses a larger monitor he will no appreciate the longer traveling distance. Let me add here, the concept of a global menubar isn't
Re: [Ayatana] Thoughts on Unity design
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Niklas Rosenqvist wrote: > Hi, my name is Niklas Rosenqvist and I recently sent this message to > David Barth who forwarded it to a couple of people and I thought I > might post it here as well to see what reactions it might get. I'm > fairly new to the ubuntu community and I just joined the ayatana > mailing list so forgive me if I'm doing this the wrong way :) > > This what I sent to David: >(...) I love it, every single one of your ideas, I agree with both your criticism and the proposed solutions Then I got to this: > Lastly I just want to say that the global menu bar works exceptionally > well and also the overlay scroll bars. Keep up the good job with > making Ubuntu the best PC operating system there is! If the above > features get looked at Ubuntu will be unstoppable!" > > So what is your thoughts? :) > Let me just say I completely disagree on these two accounts but that's for another thread :) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
