Re: [Ayatana] Shadows around active window versus window tiling

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 01:21, Ryan Prior  wrote:
>
> Another tiny detail that could improve the illusion is to remove the
> window corner rounding for the "seam" between the two tiled windows,
> making them look more like one unit.
>

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/694302


>
> I can create a mock-up if that would be helpful to illustrate my idea.
>

i think the smspillaz has his hands full with other important work, e.g.
making compiz stable etc., but he already posted this a while ago:
http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/better-shadows/
i don't know if that patch already made it into natty's beta repos, but if
it did, then it's incomplete as you noticed.
in that case, the patch would have to be revisited to address also tiled
windows, imo..
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Re: [Ayatana] New Unity lens - Contact lens

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi Thibaut,

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 14:07, Thibaut Brandscheid  wrote:

> > Thanks for your mockup (and clever name!) -- I'll make sure
> > we discuss it during the UDS Lens session.
>
> This would be s great :)
>
> If you want you can add the mock-up to the wiki - just do with it what you
> want.
>

it's quite sexy, indeed!
why not add a mockup for the maximized dash? in that one, you could make it
show search results as large thumbs or "cards", just as Ian suggests above,
and still have the actions on the right.
i'd also swap the positions of "received messages" and "chat", and then
probably think about renaming "received messages" into "history".

thanks for an excellent thread
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Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Kevin Liao wrote on 12/04/11 14:48:
>
> Hi all, 
> I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a
> while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However,
> Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu
> when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered
> invalid because the user is in a sense "blind" until the mouse hovers
> over the menu?
>...

It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two
weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden
menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the
close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window.

They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the
close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very
slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows.

People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet
integrated into the global menu bar by default.

- -- 
mpt
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk2tfaYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrSbQCeL6RbZA+rHj7NMEhaPmJJT6If
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[Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Bazon]

 Original Message 
Subject: 	[Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to 
minimize apps, not just launch/restore

Date:   Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
From:   Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
Reply-To:   Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>



> I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will be happy


 to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.



OK, so here we go:
Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking a further time 
on the button which represents the application?
That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is possible in the 
XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is possible  with the MS Windows 
taskbar and probably many more.

So why break users expectations?
You leave the experienced user in frustration while the inexperienced user will 
not be mocked by minimizing on an extra click he probably never makes.
(Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the icon/switcher 
is a very common practice.)

I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an interactive 
element of your screen leads to NOTHING.

Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow, experienced 
users who are used to the minimize behaviour will miss it.
(and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough losing Gnome 2 
features.)


So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on the launcher.






--




You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
of the bug.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/733349

Title:
  Natty:  Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just
  launch/restore

To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/733349/+subscribe


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Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Ian Santopietro]

It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent apps, and
since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of that app), they
don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the list was a list of windows.
It would be clicking on a Gnome 2 shortcut and having the windows of that
app minimize.

I might be wrong here though.
On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon"  wrote:
>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to
> minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
> Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
>
>
>
> > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will be happy
>
>> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
>
>
> OK, so here we go:
> Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking a further
time on the button which represents the application?
> That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is possible in
the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is possible with the MS
Windows taskbar and probably many more.
>
> So why break users expectations?
> You leave the experienced user in frustration while the inexperienced user
will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra click he probably never makes.
> (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the
icon/switcher is a very common practice.)
>
> I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an interactive
element of your screen leads to NOTHING.
>
> Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow,
experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will miss it.
> (and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough losing Gnome 2
features.)
>
>
> So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on the
launcher.
>
>
>
>>
> --
>>
>>
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/733349
>
> Title:
> Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just
> launch/restore
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/733349/+subscribe
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Launcher and Panel Overlap

[Ian Santopietro]

What happens if you have a narrow window (GIMP, Empathy) stuck behind the
icons on the right? I think that's why Wingpanel's behavior was changed.
On Apr 18, 2011 10:25 PM, "Mehdi Fattahi"  wrote:
> I wonder why the launcher and the top panel overlap in unity. The logic
> behind removing panels and having a dock on the left is apparently
> saving vertical screen real-estate. The top panel is only partially used:
a
> few icons on the far right and one single icon on the far left. Even with
> the global menu enabled not all the panel space is utilized. In the
attached
> picture you can see that this could be implemented much better. I've done
> this using AWN (it's not a mock-up, it's my own ubuntu remaster called
AriOS
> http://arioslinux.org). When you maximize a window the icons sit nicely on
> top of the window title bar.
> The launcher also shouldn't be expanded IMHO. the reason for this is that
> even if you have a maximized window you can still use the free space below
> the launcher to right-click on the desktop or extract or drag and drop
files
> to the desktop.
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Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Marco Biscaro]

Ian, I think you're right.

applications != windows

An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question here
is consistency:

If your application has just one window, when you click on the launcher
icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened windows to
that application? What should happen when you click the launcher icon
if:

1. All windows are visible?
2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
4. All windows are minimized?

Considering that there is just one icon per application, I think the
best way to minimize a window is to click the minimize button of that
window. If I'm not mistaken, this why clicking on launcher icons doesn't
minimize windows.

Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use the
workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop if needed.

On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:

> It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent apps,
> and since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of that app),
> they don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the list was a list
> of windows. It would be clicking on a Gnome 2 shortcut and having the
> windows of that app minimize.
> 
> I might be wrong here though.
> 
> 
> On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon"  wrote:
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow
> to 
> > minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> > From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
> > Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will be
> happy
> > 
> >> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
> > 
> > 
> > OK, so here we go:
> > Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking a
> further time on the button which represents the application?
> > That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is
> possible in the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is
> possible with the MS Windows taskbar and probably many more.
> > 
> > So why break users expectations?
> > You leave the experienced user in frustration while the
> inexperienced user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra click
> he probably never makes.
> > (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the
> icon/switcher is a very common practice.)
> > 
> > I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an
> interactive element of your screen leads to NOTHING.
> > 
> > Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow,
> experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will miss it.
> > (and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough losing
> Gnome 2 features.)
> > 
> > 
> > So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on the
> launcher.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >>
> > -- 
> >>
> >>
> > You received this bug notification because you are a direct
> subscriber
> > of the bug.
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/733349
> > 
> > Title:
> > Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not
> just
> > launch/restore
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/733349/+subscribe
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 733349] Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps

[Xavier Guillot]

Hello,

IMHO, I'd like that if only 1 windows of an application is opened and 
visible, click on the dock icon minimizes it, too.


When more than 1 window is open, whether are they all visible or not, 
click on the icon should display the miniatures of all windows, like it 
does now, but put on the right side / bottom the current window, and 
show on the top left the other ones - if we want to switch to another 
window, the best is to have less mouse movement to do, so having the 
other one(s) very close to the dock, for the moment it is not the case...


Xavier.

On 19/04/2011 16:15, Marco Biscaro wrote:

Ian, I think you're right.

applications != windows

An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question 
here is consistency:


If your application has just one window, when you click on the 
launcher icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened 
windows to that application? What should happen when you click the 
launcher icon if:


1. All windows are visible?
2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
4. All windows are minimized?

Considering that there is just one icon per application, I think the 
best way to minimize a window is to click the minimize button of that 
window. If I'm not mistaken, this why clicking on launcher icons 
doesn't minimize windows.


Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use the 
workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop if needed.


On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:
It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent apps, 
and since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of that 
app), they don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the list was a 
list of windows. It would be clicking on a Gnome 2 shortcut and 
having the windows of that app minimize.


I might be wrong here though.

On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon" > wrote:

>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should 
allow to

> minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net 
>
> Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net 
>

>
>
>
> > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will be 
happy

>
>> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
>
>
> OK, so here we go:
> Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking a 
further time on the button which represents the application?
> That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is 
possible in the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is 
possible with the MS Windows taskbar and probably many more.

>
> So why break users expectations?
> You leave the experienced user in frustration while the 
inexperienced user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra click 
he probably never makes.
> (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the 
icon/switcher is a very common practice.)

>
> I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an 
interactive element of your screen leads to NOTHING.

>
> Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow, 
experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will miss it.
> (and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough losing 
Gnome 2 features.)

>
>
> So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on the 
launcher.
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Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 733349] Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps

[Marco Biscaro]

I think this is not implemented beacuse the lack of consistency.

Most users will have just one window of each application opened at same
time. So, they will conclude that a click on launcher will minimize the
window. When they open two windows of the same application and click the
icon, the window(s) will not be minimized (so, a lot of bugs will be
reported - something like: 'sometimes the minimize does not work!!!').

IMO, this will just confuse users...

On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 16:45 +0200, Xavier Guillot wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> IMHO, I'd like that if only 1 windows of an application is opened and
> visible, click on the dock icon minimizes it, too.
> 
> When more than 1 window is open, whether are they all visible or not,
> click on the icon should display the miniatures of all windows, like
> it does now, but put on the right side / bottom the current window,
> and show on the top left the other ones - if we want to switch to
> another window, the best is to have less mouse movement to do, so
> having the other one(s) very close to the dock, for the moment it is
> not the case...
> 
> Xavier.
> 
> On 19/04/2011 16:15, Marco Biscaro wrote: 
> 
> > Ian, I think you're right.
> > 
> > applications != windows
> > 
> > An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question
> > here is consistency:
> > 
> > If your application has just one window, when you click on the
> > launcher icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened
> > windows to that application? What should happen when you click the
> > launcher icon if:
> > 
> > 1. All windows are visible?
> > 2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
> > 3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
> > 4. All windows are minimized?
> > 
> > Considering that there is just one icon per application, I think the
> > best way to minimize a window is to click the minimize button of
> > that window. If I'm not mistaken, this why clicking on launcher
> > icons doesn't minimize windows.
> > 
> > Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use the
> > workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop if
> > needed.
> > 
> > On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:
> > 
> > > It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent
> > > apps, and since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of
> > > that app), they don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the
> > > list was a list of windows. It would be clicking on a Gnome 2
> > > shortcut and having the windows of that app minimize.
> > > 
> > > I might be wrong here though.
> > > 
> > > On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon"  wrote:
> > > >  Original Message 
> > > > Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should
> > > allow to 
> > > > minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> > > > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> > > > From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
> > > > Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will
> > > be happy
> > > > 
> > > >> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > OK, so here we go:
> > > > Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking
> > > a further time on the button which represents the application?
> > > > That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is
> > > possible in the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is
> > > possible with the MS Windows taskbar and probably many more.
> > > > 
> > > > So why break users expectations?
> > > > You leave the experienced user in frustration while the
> > > inexperienced user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra
> > > click he probably never makes.
> > > > (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the
> > > icon/switcher is a very common practice.)
> > > > 
> > > > I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an
> > > interactive element of your screen leads to NOTHING.
> > > > 
> > > > Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow,
> > > experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will miss
> > > it.
> > > > (and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough losing
> > > Gnome 2 features.)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on
> > > the launcher.
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Bazon]

On 19.04.2011 16:15, Marco Biscaro wrote:

(...)

An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question 
here is consistency:


If your application has just one window, when you click on the 
launcher icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened 
windows to that application? What should happen when you click the 
launcher icon if:


1. All windows are visible?
2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
4. All windows are minimized?



consistency could be achieved very easy:
In ALL cases above, clicking on the launcher several times leads to a 
state, where clicking the launcher leads to NOTHING: everything stays as 
it is, which is the expose window spread. (which btw. can be confusing 
than there is only one window shown [steps to reproce: blow, see *], as 
nothing outside the window responds in this state.
Also, clicking on a icon and nothing happens leaves me feeling it is 
broken...)



So just after that state, an additional click could minimize all windows 
from this application.
(optionally, this need not to be the final state, cycling around these 
states by clicking again would be nice).



(...)

Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use the 
workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop if needed.





Ah, don't talk about workspaces, I loved them and suffer still from 
breaking their usability enough already 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/689733 and 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/683170

And "show desktop" deserves its own button IMHO   ...(just as before)



(*)
steps to reproduce having only one window in the expose window spread:
* open two windows of the same application (I had this with firefox) on 
workspace 1 and 2.

* make sure both windows are not maximized and not minimized
* change to workspace 2 and minimize the window there
* change to workspace 1 and select the window from the regarded application
* press the application icon in the launcher until both windows appear
* select the (before minimized) window on workspace 2 by right clicking 
it (which is faster than two left clicks)
result: you see the second window in normal size, but you can not click 
anything outside it.








On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:
It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent apps, 
and since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of that 
app), they don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the list was a 
list of windows. It would be clicking on a Gnome 2 shortcut and 
having the windows of that app minimize.


I might be wrong here though.

On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon" > wrote:

>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should 
allow to

> minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net 
>
> Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net 
>

>
>
>
> > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will be 
happy

>
>> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
>
>
> OK, so here we go:
> Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking a 
further time on the button which represents the application?
> That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is 
possible in the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is 
possible with the MS Windows taskbar and probably many more.

>
> So why break users expectations?
> You leave the experienced user in frustration while the 
inexperienced user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra click 
he probably never makes.
> (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the 
icon/switcher is a very common practice.)

>
> I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an 
interactive element of your screen leads to NOTHING.

>
> Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow, 
experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will miss it.
> (and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough losing 
Gnome 2 features.)

>
>
> So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on the 
launcher.

>
>
>
>>
> --
>>
>>
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/733349
>
> Title:
> Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just
> launch/restore
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/733349/+subscribe
>
>
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> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 

> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana 

Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law

[Mitja Pagon]

- "Matthew Paul Thomas"  wrote: 
> 
> It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two 
> weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden 
> menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the 
> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window. 
> 
> They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the 
> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very 
> slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows. 
> 
> People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet 
> integrated into the global menu bar by default. 
> 

The question remains. Why, despite being a definite usability regression, is 
the menu still hidden? Who makes this decisions and why can't they accept the 
fact they are wrong in this case? 

Cheers, 
Mitja 
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Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Marco Biscaro]

> Ah, don't talk about workspaces, I loved them and suffer still from
> breaking their usability enough already
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/689733 and
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/683170
> And "show desktop" deserves its own button IMHO   ...(just as
> before)
> 

If this problem is solved, workspaces can help a lot (and I think it's
easy to solve). About the show desktop button: completly agree.
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Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Jorge Ortega]

I really don't understand this kind of reasoning.

IMHO this is a case of creating a very real problem by means of fixing a
very theoretical one. I find *consistency* a well over-used concept: one can
try to force consistent behaviour between any two given elements in a web of
many others (and in the process forget about all the others). Let me explain
myself.

The problem which has been fixed here was a non-existing one: most people
don't know the difference between an app and a window, it is an extremely
abstract concept and people just don't do their computing like that; people
are mainly totally alien to this. Most people don't know what a file manager
is. People do care though about *predictibility*: you provoke and action and
expect/hope for some particular reaction.

One such is being able to minimize from the same place you used to launch an
app. This is -talking about consistency- just about what always  happens in
the rest of the Univers, and this goes for many version of Windows, all
Linux desktops I've laid my hands on, any other dock I've used, etc. The use
is so widely spread that it should be considered a de-facto standard.
Compared to this the theoretical problem of having multiple or single
windows of an app., etc seems irrelevant.

There is of course the option of having icons for windows no apps (Gimp
being a very obvious exception to this), there is the option of First click:
maximizes all, Second click minimazes all. There are other options but none
should include what there is now.

Just my opinion.


On 19 April 2011 15:15, Marco Biscaro  wrote:

>  Ian, I think you're right.
>
> applications != windows
>
> An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question here is
> consistency:
>
> If your application has just one window, when you click on the launcher
> icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened windows to that
> application? What should happen when you click the launcher icon if:
>
> 1. All windows are visible?
> 2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
> 3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
> 4. All windows are minimized?
>
> Considering that there is just one icon per application, I think the best
> way to minimize a window is to click the minimize button of that window. If
> I'm not mistaken, this why clicking on launcher icons doesn't minimize
> windows.
>
> Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use the
> workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop if needed.
>
>
> On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:
>
> It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent apps, and
> since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of that app), they
> don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the list was a list of windows.
> It would be clicking on a Gnome 2 shortcut and having the windows of that
> app minimize.
>
> I might be wrong here though.
>
>  On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon"  wrote:
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to
> > minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> > From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
> > Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
> >
> >
> >
> > > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will be happy
> >
> >> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
> >
> >
> > OK, so here we go:
> > Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking a
> further time on the button which represents the application?
> > That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is possible in
> the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is possible with the MS
> Windows taskbar and probably many more.
> >
> > So why break users expectations?
> > You leave the experienced user in frustration while the inexperienced
> user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra click he probably never
> makes.
> > (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the
> icon/switcher is a very common practice.)
> >
> > I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an interactive
> element of your screen leads to NOTHING.
> >
> > Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow,
> experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will miss it.
> > (and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough losing Gnome 2
> features.)
> >
> >
> > So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on the
> launcher.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> > --
> >>
> >>
> > You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> > of the bug.
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/733349
> >
> > Title:
> > Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just
> > launch/restore
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/733349/+subscribe
> >
> >
> > _

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Bazon]

On 19.04.2011 20:41, Jorge Ortega wrote:

()

The problem which has been fixed here was a non-existing one: most 
people don't know the difference between an app and a window, it is an 
extremely abstract concept and people just don't do their computing 
like that; people are mainly totally alien to this. Most people don't 
know what a file manager is. People do care though about 
*predictibility*: you provoke and action and expect/hope for some 
particular reaction.


I agree on that.
I really get tricked by Unity so many times, e.g. when checking mails: 
One click to restore the minimized window, and the second click to 
minimize it again if there is nothing important - that's the way I'm 
used to since so many years.
Walking in this trap either makes you feel stupid or leads to being 
frustrated with Unity.






One such is being able to minimize from the same place you used to 
launch an app. This is -talking about consistency- just about what 
always  happens in the rest of the Univers, and this goes for many 
version of Windows, all Linux desktops I've laid my hands on, any 
other dock I've used, etc. The use is so widely spread that it should 
be considered a de-facto standard. Compared to this the theoretical 
problem of having multiple or single windows of an app., etc seems 
irrelevant.


There is of course the option of having icons for windows no apps 
(Gimp being a very obvious exception to this), there is the option of 
First click: maximizes all, Second click minimazes all. There are 
other options but none should include what there is now.


Just my opinion.


On 19 April 2011 15:15, Marco Biscaro > wrote:


Ian, I think you're right.

applications != windows

An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question
here is consistency:

If your application has just one window, when you click on the
launcher icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened
windows to that application? What should happen when you click the
launcher icon if:

1. All windows are visible?
2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
4. All windows are minimized?

Considering that there is just one icon per application, I think
the best way to minimize a window is to click the minimize button
of that window. If I'm not mistaken, this why clicking on launcher
icons doesn't minimize windows.

Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use
the workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop
if needed.


On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:

It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent
apps, and since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of
that app), they don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the
list was a list of windows. It would be clicking on a Gnome 2
shortcut and having the windows of that app minimize.

I might be wrong here though.

On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon" mailto:bazonbl...@arcor.de>> wrote:
>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should
allow to
> minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net
>
> Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net
>
>
>
>
> > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they
will be happy
>
>> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
>
>
> OK, so here we go:
> Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when
clicking a further time on the button which represents the
application?
> That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is
possible in the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is
possible with the MS Windows taskbar and probably many more.
>
> So why break users expectations?
> You leave the experienced user in frustration while the
inexperienced user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra
click he probably never makes.
> (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the
icon/switcher is a very common practice.)
>
> I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an
interactive element of your screen leads to NOTHING.
>
> Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow,
experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will
miss it.
> (and you know, many of them are already frustrated enough
losing Gnome 2 features.)
>
>
> So please reconsider allowing minimizing windows by clicking on
the launcher.
>
>
>
>>
> --
>>
>>
> You received this bug notif

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Bazon]

Additionally, the Dash works exactly that way:
First click: show
Next click: hide

This works for all Dashes, the Ubuntu-Logo-Dash, the Applications-Dash 
and the Files-and-Folders-Dash - why not for the other symbols on the 
launcher?


So much for consistency.



On 19.04.2011 20:41, Jorge Ortega wrote:

I really don't understand this kind of reasoning.

IMHO this is a case of creating a very real problem by means of fixing 
a very theoretical one. I find *consistency* a well over-used concept: 
one can try to force consistent behaviour between any two given 
elements in a web of many others (and in the process forget about all 
the others). Let me explain myself.


The problem which has been fixed here was a non-existing one: most 
people don't know the difference between an app and a window, it is an 
extremely abstract concept and people just don't do their computing 
like that; people are mainly totally alien to this. Most people don't 
know what a file manager is. People do care though about 
*predictibility*: you provoke and action and expect/hope for some 
particular reaction.


One such is being able to minimize from the same place you used to 
launch an app. This is -talking about consistency- just about what 
always  happens in the rest of the Univers, and this goes for many 
version of Windows, all Linux desktops I've laid my hands on, any 
other dock I've used, etc. The use is so widely spread that it should 
be considered a de-facto standard. Compared to this the theoretical 
problem of having multiple or single windows of an app., etc seems 
irrelevant.


There is of course the option of having icons for windows no apps 
(Gimp being a very obvious exception to this), there is the option of 
First click: maximizes all, Second click minimazes all. There are 
other options but none should include what there is now.


Just my opinion.


On 19 April 2011 15:15, Marco Biscaro > wrote:


Ian, I think you're right.

applications != windows

An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question
here is consistency:

If your application has just one window, when you click on the
launcher icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened
windows to that application? What should happen when you click the
launcher icon if:

1. All windows are visible?
2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
4. All windows are minimized?

Considering that there is just one icon per application, I think
the best way to minimize a window is to click the minimize button
of that window. If I'm not mistaken, this why clicking on launcher
icons doesn't minimize windows.

Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use
the workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop
if needed.


On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:

It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent
apps, and since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of
that app), they don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the
list was a list of windows. It would be clicking on a Gnome 2
shortcut and having the windows of that app minimize.

I might be wrong here though.

On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon" mailto:bazonbl...@arcor.de>> wrote:
>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should
allow to
> minimize apps, not just launch/restore
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
> From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net
>
> Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net
>
>
>
>
> > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they
will be happy
>
>> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
>
>
> OK, so here we go:
> Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when
clicking a further time on the button which represents the
application?
> That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is
possible in the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is
possible with the MS Windows taskbar and probably many more.
>
> So why break users expectations?
> You leave the experienced user in frustration while the
inexperienced user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra
click he probably never makes.
> (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the
icon/switcher is a very common practice.)
>
> I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an
interactive element of your screen leads to NOTHING.
>
> Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow,
experienced users who are used to the minimize behaviour will
miss it.
  

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Jorge Ortega]

Still more: all the indicators on the top right corner. You click one and it
shows, click again and it hides. And this is how it should be.

On 19 April 2011 21:12, Bazon  wrote:

>  Additionally, the Dash works exactly that way:
> First click: show
> Next click: hide
>
> This works for all Dashes, the Ubuntu-Logo-Dash, the Applications-Dash and
> the Files-and-Folders-Dash - why not for the other symbols on the launcher?
>
> So much for consistency.
>
>
>
>
> On 19.04.2011 20:41, Jorge Ortega wrote:
>
> I really don't understand this kind of reasoning.
>
> IMHO this is a case of creating a very real problem by means of fixing a
> very theoretical one. I find *consistency* a well over-used concept: one
> can try to force consistent behaviour between any two given elements in a
> web of many others (and in the process forget about all the others). Let me
> explain myself.
>
> The problem which has been fixed here was a non-existing one: most people
> don't know the difference between an app and a window, it is an extremely
> abstract concept and people just don't do their computing like that; people
> are mainly totally alien to this. Most people don't know what a file manager
> is. People do care though about *predictibility*: you provoke and action
> and expect/hope for some particular reaction.
>
> One such is being able to minimize from the same place you used to launch
> an app. This is -talking about consistency- just about what always  happens
> in the rest of the Univers, and this goes for many version of Windows, all
> Linux desktops I've laid my hands on, any other dock I've used, etc. The use
> is so widely spread that it should be considered a de-facto standard.
> Compared to this the theoretical problem of having multiple or single
> windows of an app., etc seems irrelevant.
>
> There is of course the option of having icons for windows no apps (Gimp
> being a very obvious exception to this), there is the option of First click:
> maximizes all, Second click minimazes all. There are other options but none
> should include what there is now.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
>
> On 19 April 2011 15:15, Marco Biscaro  wrote:
>
>>  Ian, I think you're right.
>>
>> applications != windows
>>
>> An application can have zero or more windows. I think the question here is
>> consistency:
>>
>> If your application has just one window, when you click on the launcher
>> icon, this window will minimize. But if you have 3 opened windows to that
>> application? What should happen when you click the launcher icon if:
>>
>> 1. All windows are visible?
>> 2. Two windows are visible and one is already minimized?
>> 3. One window is visible and two are already minimized?
>> 4. All windows are minimized?
>>
>> Considering that there is just one icon per application, I think the best
>> way to minimize a window is to click the minimize button of that window. If
>> I'm not mistaken, this why clicking on launcher icons doesn't minimize
>> windows.
>>
>> Besides this, If you want to organize your windows, you can use the
>> workspaces to arrange them. And use +D to show desktop if needed.
>>
>>
>> On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 07:30 -0600, Ian Santopietro wrote:
>>
>> It was my understanding that the launcher  icons only represent apps, and
>> since an app can't really be minimized (only windows of that app), they
>> don't do it.  It works with Gnome 2 because the list was a list of windows.
>> It would be clicking on a Gnome 2 shortcut and having the windows of that
>> app minimize.
>>
>> I might be wrong here though.
>>
>>  On Apr 19, 2011 7:19 AM, "Bazon"  wrote:
>> >  Original Message 
>> > Subject: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to
>> > minimize apps, not just launch/restore
>> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:45:08 -
>> > From: Michael <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
>> > Reply-To: Bug 733349 <733...@bugs.launchpad.net>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > I'm sure that if you ask on the Ayatana mailing list they will be
>> happy
>> >
>> >> to explain, and perhaps to discuss, the reasoning.
>> >
>> >
>> > OK, so here we go:
>> > Why isn't it possible any more to minimize windows when clicking a
>> further time on the button which represents the application?
>> > That was possible with the Gnome Panel Window Switcher, it is possible
>> in the XFCE taskbar, it is possible in Cairo-Dock, it is possible with the
>> MS Windows taskbar and probably many more.
>> >
>> > So why break users expectations?
>> > You leave the experienced user in frustration while the inexperienced
>> user will not be mocked by minimizing on an extra click he probably never
>> makes.
>> > (Showing and hiding a window quick by clicking two times on the
>> icon/switcher is a very common practice.)
>> >
>> > I believe it's generally not a good idea that clicking on an interactive
>> element of your screen leads to NOTHING.
>> >
>> > Some users will wonder whether their system is responding slow,
>> experienced users who are used to the 

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: [Bug 733349] Re: Natty: Unity launcher buttons should allow to minimize apps, not just launch/restore

[Marco Biscaro]

On Ter, 2011-04-19 at 21:17 +0100, Jorge Ortega wrote:

> Still more: all the indicators on the top right corner. You click one
> and it shows, click again and it hides. And this is how it should be.
> 
> 
> On 19 April 2011 21:12, Bazon  wrote:
> 
> Additionally, the Dash works exactly that way: 
> First click: show
> Next click: hide
> 
> This works for all Dashes, the Ubuntu-Logo-Dash, the
> Applications-Dash and the Files-and-Folders-Dash - why not for
> the other symbols on the launcher?
> 
> So much for consistency.
> 
> 

It's very simple: there is one dash to one launcher icon. The same for
indicators: one menu for each indicator.

Again, the problem with launcher icons is: each application can have
zero or more windows.

On GNOME desktop and on Windows, a click on the panel/taskbar minimize
the window because each window has an "button" on panel/taskbar.

Instead of just criticize the current design, why don't you write a
specification and mockups to propose changes? They can be discussed
here, on the mailing list, and implemented for Oneiric (it's too late to
changes for Natty).

All kind of improvements are welcome, but we need something concrete and
well defined. :-)

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Re: [Ayatana] The top right thing

[Alexander Lancey]

I think putting it either in the Dash or in the MeMenu makes the most
sense. I don't associate shutdown with settings at all, and almost every
time I go to shut down I still hit "System Settings" instead of "Shut
Down".

On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 07:31 +0330, Mehdi Fattahi wrote:
> Maybe they should change the icon for the menu if it is to include
> System Settings. Hit Power button to go to System Settings? That's
> ridiculous!
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 10:25 PM, Luke Benstead 
> wrote:
> 
> On 18 April 2011 19:08, Ryan Prior 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Luke Benstead
>  wrote:
> >> Hi Jim,
> >>
> >> I believe it's called the "Session menu" (at least, it was
> until some
> >> bright spark decided to shove a system-wide control panel
> underneath
> >> it - I assume it still is).
> >
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I was wondering why that fit there. I have to imagine
> it's
> > because they really wanted people to find it, but not bad
> enough to
> > put a link to it in the launcher; and not until they wanted
> to suspend
> > or shut down their machine.
> >
> 
> I think it's just there because there is nowhere else to put
> it. I
> think it's badly positioned though, everything else in that
> menu
> related to ending or suspending the session in some way. Not
> only does
> a system wide control panel not belong there but it's really
> annoying
> having it positioned right where Shutdown was.
> 
> I just think now that Unity is being rushed for Natty, and it
> shows.
> 
> Luke.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law

[Alexander Lancey]

Why does the global menu hide at all? Hiding it doesn't save a lot of
space, and it an can quite annoying.

-New users may have issues finding it
-A user may forgot an action like Edit -> Copy if the Edit menu isn't a
visual reminder
-I frequently make an L-shape as I hit the top of the screen, then move
the mouse to the menu i was looking for

On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 13:18 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Kevin Liao wrote on 12/04/11 14:48:
> >
> > Hi all, 
> > I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a
> > while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However,
> > Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu
> > when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered
> > invalid because the user is in a sense "blind" until the mouse hovers
> > over the menu?
> >...
> 
> It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two
> weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden
> menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the
> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window.
> 
> They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the
> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very
> slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows.
> 
> People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet
> integrated into the global menu bar by default.
> 
> - -- 
> mpt
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAk2tfaYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrSbQCeL6RbZA+rHj7NMEhaPmJJT6If
> H9gAnj3fTRXOwqwC3tA8rWI/1WXMsmtW
> =4Qj1
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law

[Christopher Kahn]

+1 on this... the menu should never be hidden. It's very difficult and
unintuitive to hide it. The window title should just push it over... even
the "geniuses" designing OS X do it like that.


On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Alexander Lancey wrote:

>  Why does the global menu hide at all? Hiding it doesn't save a lot of
> space, and it an can quite annoying.
>
> -New users may have issues finding it
> -A user may forgot an action like Edit -> Copy if the Edit menu isn't a
> visual reminder
> -I frequently make an L-shape as I hit the top of the screen, *then* move
> the mouse to the menu i was looking for
>
>
> On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 13:18 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Kevin Liao wrote on 12/04/11 14:48:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a
> > while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However,
> > Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu
> > when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered
> > invalid because the user is in a sense "blind" until the mouse hovers
> > over the menu?
> >...
>
> It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two
> weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden
> menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the
> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window.
>
> They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the
> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very
> slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows.
>
> People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet
> integrated into the global menu bar by default.
>
> - --
> mpt
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk2tfaYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrSbQCeL6RbZA+rHj7NMEhaPmJJT6If
> H9gAnj3fTRXOwqwC3tA8rWI/1WXMsmtW
> =4Qj1
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law

[Carl Simpson]

As far as I am aware, from memory, this was not done so that the
application's menus always start in the same place, thereby being
consistent, thereby making it quicker to find stuff.

With the ironic outcome that where with the Mac style we had to check the
location of a given item before went off for the menu, with the “improved”
Unity style, we have no idea where the menu is at all or what items are in
it in the first place.

2011/4/19 Christopher Kahn 

> +1 on this... the menu should never be hidden. It's very difficult and
> unintuitive to hide it. The window title should just push it over... even
> the "geniuses" designing OS X do it like that.
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Alexander Lancey wrote:
>
>>  Why does the global menu hide at all? Hiding it doesn't save a lot of
>> space, and it an can quite annoying.
>>
>> -New users may have issues finding it
>> -A user may forgot an action like Edit -> Copy if the Edit menu isn't a
>> visual reminder
>> -I frequently make an L-shape as I hit the top of the screen, *then* move
>> the mouse to the menu i was looking for
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 13:18 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Kevin Liao wrote on 12/04/11 14:48:
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> > I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a
>> > while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However,
>> > Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu
>> > when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered
>> > invalid because the user is in a sense "blind" until the mouse hovers
>> > over the menu?
>> >...
>>
>> It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two
>> weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden
>> menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the
>> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window.
>>
>> They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the
>> close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very
>> slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows.
>>
>> People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet
>> integrated into the global menu bar by default.
>>
>> - --
>> mpt
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAk2tfaYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrSbQCeL6RbZA+rHj7NMEhaPmJJT6If
>> H9gAnj3fTRXOwqwC3tA8rWI/1WXMsmtW
>> =4Qj1
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>> ___
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>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
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Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law

[Jeremy Bicha]

On 19 April 2011 19:26, Carl Simpson  wrote:
> As far as I am aware, from memory, this was not done so that the
> application's menus always start in the same place, thereby being
> consistent, thereby making it quicker to find stuff.
>
> With the ironic outcome that where with the Mac style we had to check the
> location of a given item before went off for the menu, with the “improved”
> Unity style, we have no idea where the menu is at all or what items are in
> it in the first place.

For Firefox & Chromium in particular, there is not enough room for the
appmenu and the app title, which in this case also includes the page
title, assuming you're a power user with more than 7 tabs or so.

Jeremy Bicha

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