[Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely half-hearted: it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't remove from the bar. Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. 2-*Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default)* 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops appears in the bar (it has to be very prominent) 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For instance, when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear in the active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on something or carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away. A case could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most of the time we are transferring files between windows. 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth and not sight-tiring. In short: current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to put them in different deskops. suggested behaviour: apps open in their own space and the user has to put put them manually in the same desktops if they want to do it. Which such a behaviour the concept of virtual desktops becomes transparent: people would use them without actually realizing, you don't decide to use the feature or not, the feature is at the core of how your computer works.The way to do this doesn't have to be the traditional zoom out/drag and drop/zoon in: drag an icon onto other icon to move apps to the same space/desktop and gain focus on this desktop immediately. In this context minimizing seems to loose any sense: why do you wan to minimize an app that is not sharing its space with anything else? The above proposal has far reaching consecuences but would go a very long way towards simplifying how people use their computers. Failing to implement the above then please, get rid of the desktop-switcher icon and bring back the possibility to minimize windows from the launcher. Jorge - ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?
We're thinking maybe: Step 1: Alt-Tab-Tab-Tab to relevant app. Step 2: Either a) Release Alt to access mostly recent viewed window for that app (or only window if there's only 1 window open for that app). or b} Pause - spread of windows for that app is displayed. Tab to one you want, then release Alt to go to it. OK or not? On 13/04/11 18:32, Paul Sladen wrote: On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Pippa Kyle wrote: When using Alt-Tab for switching between windows, would you like windows of a particular app grouped under that app? Thank you Pippa! Could you describe how a second-level selection might work? For instance, if I have fifteen full-screen terminals open, how would the selection process work if I wanted to switch to the third-to-most-recent Terminal, from: a. Already being in a Terminal (currently Alt-tab-tab-tab) b. Needing to switch from a Firefox window? (Alt-tab-tab-tab-tab) -Paul ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars
New scroll bars look and behaviour as it is in natty today are extremely hard to use in touchscreen devices were you cannot use mouse-hover functionality. I suggest to extend delay time they use to disappear when mouse isn't close enough. Regards MR ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Pippa Kyle wrote: > >a. Already being in a Terminal (currently Alt-tab-tab-tab) > >b. Needing to switch from a Firefox window? (Alt-tab-tab-tab-tab) > We're thinking maybe: > ... If I understand correctly? a. From another Terminal Alt-*long pause*-tab-tab-tab b. From a Firefox window Alt-Tab-*long pause*-tab-tab-tab -Paul ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars
> There's a plugin for touch screens called 'Unity Grab Handles' which > makes it easy ti resize and move windows.:) Problem isn't in resize windows :) Problem is in scrolling within a document. In Evince, for example, we have an icon that let you jump to next page, but in other software or dialogue there aren't such a buttons (for instance in System Config window). Using touchscreen is quite impossible scrolling down. MR <>___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
There would need to be some user testing, but I don't think people just use one full-screened app at a time. This, coupled with your own admission of exceptions to be made for application would I think cause more confusion and inconsistency than the current implementation. On the other note, if (presumably left clicking an icon in ther launcher) minimizes it, how would you propose managing multiple windows of the same application? From: jorge.ortega...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:18:03 +0100 To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Subject: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely half-hearted: it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't remove from the bar. Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops appears in the bar (it has to be very prominent) 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For instance, when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear in the active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on something or carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away. A case could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most of the time we are transferring files between windows. 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth and not sight-tiring. In short: current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to put them in different deskops. suggested behaviour: apps open in their own space and the user has to put put them manually in the same desktops if they want to do it. Which such a behaviour the concept of virtual desktops becomes transparent: people would use them without actually realizing, you don't decide to use the feature or not, the feature is at the core of how your computer works.The way to do this doesn't have to be the traditional zoom out/drag and drop/zoon in: drag an icon onto other icon to move apps to the same space/desktop and gain focus on this desktop immediately. In this context minimizing seems to loose any sense: why do you wan to minimize an app that is not sharing its space with anything else? The above proposal has far reaching consecuences but would go a very long way towards simplifying how people use their computers. Failing to implement the above then please, get rid of the desktop-switcher icon and bring back the possibility to minimize windows from the launcher. Jorge - ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 14:51, Marco Rofei wrote: > > There's a plugin for touch screens called 'Unity Grab Handles' which makes it > easy ti resize and move windows.:) > > Problem isn't in resize windows > Problem is in scrolling within a document. In Evince, for example, we have an > icon that let you jump to next page, but in other software or dialogue there > aren't such a buttons (for instance in System Config window). Using > touchscreen is quite impossible scrolling down. > > MR Aren't you supposed to swipe your fingers across the screen to scroll in Evince? An interactive scrollbar is the worst way to scroll in touch UIs. -- Remco ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars
Unity doesn't support single (multi?) touch scrolling like that found on phones? From: marco.ro...@gmail.com To: virtualspect...@googlemail.com Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:51:48 +0200 CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars There's a plugin for touch screens called 'Unity Grab Handles' which makes it easy ti resize and move windows.:) Problem isn't in resize windows Problem is in scrolling within a document. In Evince, for example, we have an icon that let you jump to next page, but in other software or dialogue there aren't such a buttons (for instance in System Config window). Using touchscreen is quite impossible scrolling down. MR ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp <>___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars
Il giorno gio, 14/04/2011 alle 15.15 +0200, Remco ha scritto: > Aren't you supposed to swipe your fingers across the screen to scroll > in Evince? An interactive scrollbar is the worst way to scroll in > touch UIs. Of course, but ubuntu support for touch screen devices is not so good right today. I have a multitouch screen, but if i put 2 fingers on it I get device to be blocked at all and i have to restart session in order to use it again. Using scroll bar is the only way I have to scroll pages right now. (Me and many other people). MR ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars
Then wouldn't it be better to file a bug that it's not working properly (presumably with that hardware) rather than coming up with another way of scrolling? From: marco.ro...@gmail.com To: remc...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:24:08 +0200 CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Overlay scrollbars Il giorno gio, 14/04/2011 alle 15.15 +0200, Remco ha scritto: Aren't you supposed to swipe your fingers across the screen to scroll in Evince? An interactive scrollbar is the worst way to scroll in touch UIs. Of course, but ubuntu support for touch screen devices is not so good right today. I have a multitouch screen, but if i put 2 fingers on it I get device to be blocked at all and i have to restart session in order to use it again. Using scroll bar is the only way I have to scroll pages right now. (Me and many other people). MR ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
I played around with this idea myself when I was working on my own shell. The issue is that since end users don't really tend to use multiple desktops, they were confused as to where their apps had gone. Power users didn't like it because it felt like the system was trying to do their work for them. It was also difficult at the technical level to figure out which windows should go on a new desktop, and which shouldn't (which may or may not be a problem here). Also, what to do when the number of new apps opened outnumbers the number of virtual desktops available. Mind you, we had a system for doing nine desktops, at that had to be fixed at nine, but the same difficulty can be applied here too. On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 03:18, Jorge Ortega wrote: > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely half-hearted: > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't remove > from the bar. > > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: > > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. > 2-*Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default)* > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops appears > in the bar (it has to be very prominent) > 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For > instance, when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should > appear in the active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on > something or carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight > away. A case could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as > well: most of the time we are transferring files between windows. > 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth > and not sight-tiring. > > In short: > current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to put them > in different deskops. > suggested behaviour: apps open in their own space and the user has to put > put them manually in the same desktops if they want to do it. > > Which such a behaviour the concept of virtual desktops becomes transparent: > people would use them without actually realizing, you don't decide to use > the feature or not, the feature is at the core of how your computer > works.The way to do this doesn't have to be the traditional zoom out/drag > and drop/zoon in: drag an icon onto other icon to move apps to the same > space/desktop and gain focus on this desktop immediately. > > In this context minimizing seems to loose any sense: why do you wan to > minimize an app that is not sharing its space with anything else? > > The above proposal has far reaching consecuences but would go a very long > way towards simplifying how people use their computers. > > > Failing to implement the above then please, get rid of the desktop-switcher > icon and bring back the possibility to minimize windows from the launcher. > > > Jorge > - > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > -- Ian Santopietro "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast Ofer middangeard monnum sended" Pa gur yv y porthaur? Public GPG key (RSA): http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
Inconsistency where some open in the new workspace others don't You still didn't answer how one would manage windows if the launcher icon minimized it (I think that's probably better in a separate thread though) From: jorge.ortega...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:16:00 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity To: merkin...@hotmail.com There would need to be some user testing, but I don't think people just use one full-screened app at a time. This, coupled with your own admission of exceptions to be made for application would I think cause more confusion and inconsistency than the current implementation It doesn't have to be a maximized apps and don't really see the inconsistency: I just see a very clean screen. I think is a reasonable solution to the problem of clutter and multitasking. On the other note, if (presumably left clicking an icon in ther launcher) minimizes it, how would you propose managing multiple windows of the same application? This is my pet hate with Unity: A solution of a problem shouldn't create other previously nonexistent problem (unable to minimize from icons). As for managing multiple windows there are different options but none should involve renouncing to well tested usability. Think of the upper-right of your screen: soundmenu and all the other applets. You click and bring the thing, click again and hide it. On 14 April 2011 14:15, Mark Curtis wrote: There would need to be some user testing, but I don't think people just use one full-screened app at a time. This, coupled with your own admission of exceptions to be made for application would I think cause more confusion and inconsistency than the current implementation. On the other note, if (presumably left clicking an icon in ther launcher) minimizes it, how would you propose managing multiple windows of the same application? From: jorge.ortega...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:18:03 +0100 To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Subject: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely half-hearted: it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't remove from the bar. Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops appears in the bar (it has to be very prominent) 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For instance, when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear in the active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on something or carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away. A case could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most of the time we are transferring files between windows. 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth and not sight-tiring. In short: current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to put them in different deskops. suggested behaviour: apps open in their own space and the user has to put put them manually in the same desktops if they want to do it. Which such a behaviour the concept of virtual desktops becomes transparent: people would use them without actually realizing, you don't decide to use the feature or not, the feature is at the core of how your computer works.The way to do this doesn't have to be the traditional zoom out/drag and drop/zoon in: drag an icon onto other icon to move apps to the same space/desktop and gain focus on this desktop immediately. In this context minimizing seems to loose any sense: why do you wan to minimize an app that is not sharing its space with anything else? The above proposal has far reaching consecuences but would go a very long way towards simplifying how people use their computers. Failing to implement the above then please, get rid of the desktop-switcher icon and bring back the possibility to minimize windows from the launcher. Jorge - ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Music Lens
On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 16:01 -0300, Sebastian Porta wrote: > Hello, everybody. > First let me tell you that I've been testing Ubuntu 11.04 Beta for a > week now, and I really like Unity and the potential that it has. > Second, I love the Lenses and I think it would be really great if you > include a Music Lens. I made a mockup with my idea > here, http://ubuntuone.com/p/mIU/ that shows songs, albums and > artists, but it could include playlist and Ubuntu Music Store results. > Let me know what you think. > Regards. Someone posted a music lens on the banshee list http://mail.gnome.org/archives/banshee-list/2011-April/msg00142.html ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
Hi Jorge, On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Ortega wrote: > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely half-hearted: > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't remove > from the bar. > > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: > > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. > 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) I want to choose how I use workspaces. I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me. My impression is that workspaces are used primarily by power users who know what they want. Putting a default in place that gets in the way of that sounds like a bad idea. > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops appears > in the bar (it has to be very prominent) This is a bit like the pattern used to stick an icons in the launcher. You first have to start an application and only then can you make it sticky. I find this behaviour in the launcher confusing. When I started using Unity I expected to be able to drag applications from the application dash and stick them in the Launcher. I suspect having to do something before you know that workspaces exist would be similarly confusing. Also, for those users that aren't familiar with them, they'd probably be confused as to why two icons appear in the launcher when they start an application instead of one (the desktop switcher and the application icon). Also, how will workspace focus behave? If I have Firefox running on workspace one and I then start Evolution, will it magically take me to workspace two? If so, I won't be able to Alt-Tab back to Firefox. If not, Evolution will appear not to have started. In the first case, this will force me to either (a) use the mouse to click on the Firefox icon or (b) know about Alt-Shift-Tab (which I think is not well known). In the second case, I'll have to know that Evolution started somewhere else and figure out where and how to get there. > 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For instance, > when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear in the > active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on something or > carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away. A case > could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most of the > time we are transferring files between windows. This sounds tricky to get right. > 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth and > not sight-tiring. Agreed. > In short: > current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to put them > in different deskops. I usually move to the workspace I want before opening an application, if I want it to be on a different workspace than the one I'm on. > suggested behaviour: apps open in their own space and the user has to put > put them manually in the same desktops if they want to do it. > > Which such a behaviour the concept of virtual desktops becomes transparent: > people would use them without actually realizing, you don't decide to use > the feature or not, the feature is at the core of how your computer > works.The way to do this doesn't have to be the traditional zoom out/drag > and drop/zoon in: drag an icon onto other icon to move apps to the same > space/desktop and gain focus on this desktop immediately. > > In this context minimizing seems to loose any sense: why do you wan to > minimize an app that is not sharing its space with anything else? I minimize applications that are doing something useful, but that I don't want to deal with. For example, I often use Movie Player to play a stream of the internet. I minimize it so that it doesn't show up when I hit Super-w to get a view of all the active windows (and I like this behaviour). Removing the "get out of my way" behaviour that minimizing provides would result in useful functionality being lost. > The above proposal has far reaching consecuences but would go a very long > way towards simplifying how people use their computers. I disagree. The suggestions above would go a very long way to making my computer harder to use and harder to reason about. Thanks, J. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
Hi jamur, I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me > the decision to open apps on the same workspace is as arbitrary as the decision to give them their own workspace. Now, I don't have hard data to support this but there it goes anyway: most of the times, when people work with one app. they work with (focus on) just one app at a time. This is even if they have several open: torrent client downloading in the background, the music player playing in the background, the browser open and ready for next time you check facebook or what not. I know that the occasions when you actually need to interact with more than one app at a time are not rare: but I would argue that they are the minority. You are right to say that just now mainly power users use multiple workspaces. But this is mainly down to how badly designed this feature is. There is nothing advanced in working in an orderly and and uncluttered way: this is how it should be by default, no by hard-won skills. >From a personal (and anecdotal) point of view: over the years every now and again I've tried to incorporate the use of multiple workspaces in my workflow. I was obviously trying to improve the clutter on the desktop like everyone else. It's never worked for me in the current form. All the other stuff: what to do with multiple instances of an app. how to switch between apps, etc is really just a matter of detail, meaning that they can be worked out. On 14 April 2011 18:14, Jamu Kakar wrote: > Hi Jorge, > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Ortega > wrote: > > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely > half-hearted: > > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't > remove > > from the bar. > > > > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: > > > > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. > > 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) > > I want to choose how I use workspaces. I don't want the shell to make > arbitrary decisions for me. My impression is that workspaces are used > primarily by power users who know what they want. Putting a default > in place that gets in the way of that sounds like a bad idea. > > > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops > appears > > in the bar (it has to be very prominent) > > This is a bit like the pattern used to stick an icons in the launcher. > You first have to start an application and only then can you make it > sticky. I find this behaviour in the launcher confusing. When I > started using Unity I expected to be able to drag applications from > the application dash and stick them in the Launcher. > > I suspect having to do something before you know that workspaces exist > would be similarly confusing. Also, for those users that aren't > familiar with them, they'd probably be confused as to why two icons > appear in the launcher when they start an application instead of one > (the desktop switcher and the application icon). > > Also, how will workspace focus behave? If I have Firefox running on > workspace one and I then start Evolution, will it magically take me to > workspace two? If so, I won't be able to Alt-Tab back to Firefox. If > not, Evolution will appear not to have started. In the first case, > this will force me to either (a) use the mouse to click on the Firefox > icon or (b) know about Alt-Shift-Tab (which I think is not well > known). In the second case, I'll have to know that Evolution started > somewhere else and figure out where and how to get there. > > > 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For > instance, > > when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear in > the > > active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on something or > > carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away. A > case > > could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most of > the > > time we are transferring files between windows. > > This sounds tricky to get right. > > > 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth > and > > not sight-tiring. > > Agreed. > > > In short: > > current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to put > them > > in different deskops. > > I usually move to the workspace I want before opening an application, > if I want it to be on a different workspace than the one I'm on. > > > suggested behaviour: apps open in their own space and the user has to put > > put them manually in the same desktops if they want to do it. > > > > Which such a behaviour the concept of virtual desktops becomes > transparent: > > people would use them without actually realizing, you don't decide to use > > the feature or not, the feature is at the core of how your computer > > works.The way to do this doesn't have to be the traditional zoom out/drag > > and drop/zoon in: drag an icon onto other icon to move apps to the s
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
Hello Ayatana mailing list. This would cause a lot of confusion for users. When you're on a viewport and you click an icon you expect the program to open right in front of you. Whisking the user around to different viewports when he opens programs will cause confusion and frustration... it is not intuitive behaviour. And if I have 4 workspaces and open 5 programs, where does the 5th program open and why? My suggestion is to add an item to launchers' right-click menus: "Open in workspace X", when you click it you'd be be moved to that workspace with the new window open. --Chris On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jorge Ortega wrote: > Hi jamur, > > > I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me >> > > the decision to open apps on the same workspace is as arbitrary as the > decision to give them their own workspace. > > Now, I don't have hard data to support this but there it goes anyway: most > of the times, when people work with one app. they work with (focus on) just > one app at a time. This is even if they have several open: torrent client > downloading in the background, the music player playing in the background, > the browser open and ready for next time you check facebook or what not. I > know that the occasions when you actually need to interact with more than > one app at a time are not rare: but I would argue that they are the > minority. > > You are right to say that just now mainly power users use multiple > workspaces. But this is mainly down to how badly designed this feature is. > There is nothing advanced in working in an orderly and and uncluttered way: > this is how it should be by default, no by hard-won skills. > > From a personal (and anecdotal) point of view: over the years every now and > again I've tried to incorporate the use of multiple workspaces in my > workflow. I was obviously trying to improve the clutter on the desktop like > everyone else. It's never worked for me in the current form. > > All the other stuff: what to do with multiple instances of an app. how to > switch between apps, etc is really just a matter of detail, meaning that > they can be worked out. > > On 14 April 2011 18:14, Jamu Kakar wrote: > >> Hi Jorge, >> >> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Ortega >> wrote: >> > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely >> half-hearted: >> > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't >> remove >> > from the bar. >> > >> > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: >> > >> > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. >> > 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) >> >> I want to choose how I use workspaces. I don't want the shell to make >> arbitrary decisions for me. My impression is that workspaces are used >> primarily by power users who know what they want. Putting a default >> in place that gets in the way of that sounds like a bad idea. >> >> > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops >> appears >> > in the bar (it has to be very prominent) >> >> This is a bit like the pattern used to stick an icons in the launcher. >> You first have to start an application and only then can you make it >> sticky. I find this behaviour in the launcher confusing. When I >> started using Unity I expected to be able to drag applications from >> the application dash and stick them in the Launcher. >> >> I suspect having to do something before you know that workspaces exist >> would be similarly confusing. Also, for those users that aren't >> familiar with them, they'd probably be confused as to why two icons >> appear in the launcher when they start an application instead of one >> (the desktop switcher and the application icon). >> >> Also, how will workspace focus behave? If I have Firefox running on >> workspace one and I then start Evolution, will it magically take me to >> workspace two? If so, I won't be able to Alt-Tab back to Firefox. If >> not, Evolution will appear not to have started. In the first case, >> this will force me to either (a) use the mouse to click on the Firefox >> icon or (b) know about Alt-Shift-Tab (which I think is not well >> known). In the second case, I'll have to know that Evolution started >> somewhere else and figure out where and how to get there. >> >> > 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For >> instance, >> > when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear in >> the >> > active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on something >> or >> > carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away. A >> case >> > could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most of >> the >> > time we are transferring files between windows. >> >> This sounds tricky to get right. >> >> > 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth >> and >> > not sight-tiring. >> >> Agreed. >> >> > In short: >> > curren
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
Christopher, But the new app would open right in front of you... The way I see it is: there wouldn't be any defined number of desktops, and definitely you shouldn't be able to see several empty desktops. The point is that a new desktop is created every time you start a new app. A compromise would be to make it action-dependent: clicking on the icon would open in new desktop and draging and droping the icon would open it in a new dektop (or viceverse). But this is probably far too much of a compromise... On 14 April 2011 20:15, Christopher Kahn wrote: > Hello Ayatana mailing list. > > This would cause a lot of confusion for users. When you're on a viewport > and you click an icon you expect the program to open right in front of you. > Whisking the user around to different viewports when he opens programs will > cause confusion and frustration... it is not intuitive behaviour. And if I > have 4 workspaces and open 5 programs, where does the 5th program open and > why? > > My suggestion is to add an item to launchers' right-click menus: "Open in > workspace X", when you click it you'd be be moved to that workspace with the > new window open. > > --Chris > > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jorge Ortega > wrote: > >> Hi jamur, >> >> >> I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me >>> >> >> the decision to open apps on the same workspace is as arbitrary as the >> decision to give them their own workspace. >> >> Now, I don't have hard data to support this but there it goes anyway: most >> of the times, when people work with one app. they work with (focus on) just >> one app at a time. This is even if they have several open: torrent client >> downloading in the background, the music player playing in the background, >> the browser open and ready for next time you check facebook or what not. I >> know that the occasions when you actually need to interact with more than >> one app at a time are not rare: but I would argue that they are the >> minority. >> >> You are right to say that just now mainly power users use multiple >> workspaces. But this is mainly down to how badly designed this feature is. >> There is nothing advanced in working in an orderly and and uncluttered way: >> this is how it should be by default, no by hard-won skills. >> >> From a personal (and anecdotal) point of view: over the years every now >> and again I've tried to incorporate the use of multiple workspaces in my >> workflow. I was obviously trying to improve the clutter on the desktop like >> everyone else. It's never worked for me in the current form. >> >> All the other stuff: what to do with multiple instances of an app. how to >> switch between apps, etc is really just a matter of detail, meaning that >> they can be worked out. >> >> On 14 April 2011 18:14, Jamu Kakar wrote: >> >>> Hi Jorge, >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Ortega >>> wrote: >>> > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely >>> half-hearted: >>> > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't >>> remove >>> > from the bar. >>> > >>> > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: >>> > >>> > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. >>> > 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) >>> >>> I want to choose how I use workspaces. I don't want the shell to make >>> arbitrary decisions for me. My impression is that workspaces are used >>> primarily by power users who know what they want. Putting a default >>> in place that gets in the way of that sounds like a bad idea. >>> >>> > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops >>> appears >>> > in the bar (it has to be very prominent) >>> >>> This is a bit like the pattern used to stick an icons in the launcher. >>> You first have to start an application and only then can you make it >>> sticky. I find this behaviour in the launcher confusing. When I >>> started using Unity I expected to be able to drag applications from >>> the application dash and stick them in the Launcher. >>> >>> I suspect having to do something before you know that workspaces exist >>> would be similarly confusing. Also, for those users that aren't >>> familiar with them, they'd probably be confused as to why two icons >>> appear in the launcher when they start an application instead of one >>> (the desktop switcher and the application icon). >>> >>> Also, how will workspace focus behave? If I have Firefox running on >>> workspace one and I then start Evolution, will it magically take me to >>> workspace two? If so, I won't be able to Alt-Tab back to Firefox. If >>> not, Evolution will appear not to have started. In the first case, >>> this will force me to either (a) use the mouse to click on the Firefox >>> icon or (b) know about Alt-Shift-Tab (which I think is not well >>> known). In the second case, I'll have to know that Evolution started >>> somewhere else and figure out where and how to get t
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
Hi all, If the end user is the target audience, then the default settings for Unity should be the ones most familiar to everyone, which is windows opening in the current Workspace. That being said, for those that use the Workspaces, there should be an option to map certain applications to Workspaces. Then you'd have all you Internet apps put together, another Workspace for Office like apps, etc. A nice idea would be to have each Workspace with it's own wallpaper, or any other visual indicator for when the dock is not visible. 2011/4/14 Jorge Ortega > Hi jamur, > > > I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me >> > > the decision to open apps on the same workspace is as arbitrary as the > decision to give them their own workspace. > > Now, I don't have hard data to support this but there it goes anyway: most > of the times, when people work with one app. they work with (focus on) just > one app at a time. This is even if they have several open: torrent client > downloading in the background, the music player playing in the background, > the browser open and ready for next time you check facebook or what not. I > know that the occasions when you actually need to interact with more than > one app at a time are not rare: but I would argue that they are the > minority. > > You are right to say that just now mainly power users use multiple > workspaces. But this is mainly down to how badly designed this feature is. > There is nothing advanced in working in an orderly and and uncluttered way: > this is how it should be by default, no by hard-won skills. > > From a personal (and anecdotal) point of view: over the years every now and > again I've tried to incorporate the use of multiple workspaces in my > workflow. I was obviously trying to improve the clutter on the desktop like > everyone else. It's never worked for me in the current form. > > All the other stuff: what to do with multiple instances of an app. how to > switch between apps, etc is really just a matter of detail, meaning that > they can be worked out. > > On 14 April 2011 18:14, Jamu Kakar wrote: > >> Hi Jorge, >> >> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Ortega >> wrote: >> > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely >> half-hearted: >> > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't >> remove >> > from the bar. >> > >> > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: >> > >> > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. >> > 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) >> >> I want to choose how I use workspaces. I don't want the shell to make >> arbitrary decisions for me. My impression is that workspaces are used >> primarily by power users who know what they want. Putting a default >> in place that gets in the way of that sounds like a bad idea. >> >> > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops >> appears >> > in the bar (it has to be very prominent) >> >> This is a bit like the pattern used to stick an icons in the launcher. >> You first have to start an application and only then can you make it >> sticky. I find this behaviour in the launcher confusing. When I >> started using Unity I expected to be able to drag applications from >> the application dash and stick them in the Launcher. >> >> I suspect having to do something before you know that workspaces exist >> would be similarly confusing. Also, for those users that aren't >> familiar with them, they'd probably be confused as to why two icons >> appear in the launcher when they start an application instead of one >> (the desktop switcher and the application icon). >> >> Also, how will workspace focus behave? If I have Firefox running on >> workspace one and I then start Evolution, will it magically take me to >> workspace two? If so, I won't be able to Alt-Tab back to Firefox. If >> not, Evolution will appear not to have started. In the first case, >> this will force me to either (a) use the mouse to click on the Firefox >> icon or (b) know about Alt-Shift-Tab (which I think is not well >> known). In the second case, I'll have to know that Evolution started >> somewhere else and figure out where and how to get there. >> >> > 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For >> instance, >> > when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear in >> the >> > active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on something >> or >> > carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away. A >> case >> > could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most of >> the >> > time we are transferring files between windows. >> >> This sounds tricky to get right. >> >> > 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very smooth >> and >> > not sight-tiring. >> >> Agreed. >> >> > In short: >> > current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to put >> them >> > in di
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
What I mean by that is, when you click the launcher you expect one thing to happen: the program to open. Opening it anywhere else but right in front of me-*-on the viewport I'm currently looking at*--is adding unnecessary complexity and confusion to what should be a dead simple procedure. Whisking the user to another workspace and having him say "hey! why'd all my other windows disappear? why do I have to go to another workspace just to get my browser back?" is confusing. So if I open 8 different programs I'd end up with 8 virtual workspaces? And then I'd have to go manually consolidating them if I only wanted them on one or two? Or take extra steps to get it to open on the current viewport? What's the limit to the number of virtual workspaces that can be open? Does this affect performance? I agree that workspaces need more accessible default behaviour but I don't think this is it. --Chris On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Jorge Ortega wrote: > Christopher, > > But the new app would open right in front of you... > > The way I see it is: there wouldn't be any defined number of desktops, and > definitely you shouldn't be able to see several empty desktops. The point is > that a new desktop is created every time you start a new app. > > A compromise would be to make it action-dependent: clicking on the icon > would open in new desktop and draging and droping the icon would open it in > a new dektop (or viceverse). But this is probably far too much of a > compromise... > > > On 14 April 2011 20:15, Christopher Kahn wrote: > >> Hello Ayatana mailing list. >> >> This would cause a lot of confusion for users. When you're on a viewport >> and you click an icon you expect the program to open right in front of you. >> Whisking the user around to different viewports when he opens programs will >> cause confusion and frustration... it is not intuitive behaviour. And if I >> have 4 workspaces and open 5 programs, where does the 5th program open and >> why? >> >> My suggestion is to add an item to launchers' right-click menus: "Open in >> workspace X", when you click it you'd be be moved to that workspace with the >> new window open. >> >> --Chris >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jorge Ortega >> wrote: >> >>> Hi jamur, >>> >>> >>> I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me >>> >>> the decision to open apps on the same workspace is as arbitrary as the >>> decision to give them their own workspace. >>> >>> Now, I don't have hard data to support this but there it goes anyway: >>> most of the times, when people work with one app. they work with (focus on) >>> just one app at a time. This is even if they have several open: torrent >>> client downloading in the background, the music player playing in the >>> background, the browser open and ready for next time you check facebook or >>> what not. I know that the occasions when you actually need to interact with >>> more than one app at a time are not rare: but I would argue that they are >>> the minority. >>> >>> You are right to say that just now mainly power users use multiple >>> workspaces. But this is mainly down to how badly designed this feature is. >>> There is nothing advanced in working in an orderly and and uncluttered way: >>> this is how it should be by default, no by hard-won skills. >>> >>> From a personal (and anecdotal) point of view: over the years every now >>> and again I've tried to incorporate the use of multiple workspaces in my >>> workflow. I was obviously trying to improve the clutter on the desktop like >>> everyone else. It's never worked for me in the current form. >>> >>> All the other stuff: what to do with multiple instances of an app. how to >>> switch between apps, etc is really just a matter of detail, meaning that >>> they can be worked out. >>> >>> On 14 April 2011 18:14, Jamu Kakar wrote: >>> Hi Jorge, On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Ortega wrote: > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely half-hearted: > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't remove > from the bar. > > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way: > > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used. > 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default) I want to choose how I use workspaces. I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me. My impression is that workspaces are used primarily by power users who know what they want. Putting a default in place that gets in the way of that sounds like a bad idea. > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops appears > in the bar (it has to be very prominent) This is a bit like the pattern used to stick an icons in the launcher. You first have to start an application and only then can you make it sticky. I find this behaviour in the launch
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
I think from now own I'm repeating myself but I'll try again. If I call them virtual desktops is because they are not real, in the sense that Gimp open and running is real. There is not system overhead there. I really don't see the extra layer of complexity, quite the opposite. This is simple: one running app-one dektop/workspace/background. In this respect changing between workspaces is not any different than changing between running apps: an icon-click or shortcut away. To be honest, this wouldn't be very different from saying: every time the user opens a new app the others get minimize instantly. The process should be transparent in the sense that you don't have to connect to the internet, find out the address of some server in USA, send a request for some information, deal with proxies, etc. every time you launch the browser to look up something in Google: this is all done for you when you trigger an action. To make it short: if people understand that I'm suggesting and extra layer of complexity, then a)didn't understand my point b)didn't explain myself well c) My suggestion is plain wrong. On 14 April 2011 20:45, Christopher Kahn wrote: > What I mean by that is, when you click the launcher you expect one thing to > happen: the program to open. Opening it anywhere else but right in front of > me-*-on the viewport I'm currently looking at*--is adding unnecessary > complexity and confusion to what should be a dead simple procedure. Whisking > the user to another workspace and having him say "hey! why'd all my other > windows disappear? why do I have to go to another workspace just to get my > browser back?" is confusing. > > So if I open 8 different programs I'd end up with 8 virtual workspaces? And > then I'd have to go manually consolidating them if I only wanted them on one > or two? Or take extra steps to get it to open on the current viewport? > What's the limit to the number of virtual workspaces that can be open? Does > this affect performance? > > I agree that workspaces need more accessible default behaviour but I don't > think this is it. > > --Chris > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Jorge Ortega > wrote: > >> Christopher, >> >> But the new app would open right in front of you... >> >> The way I see it is: there wouldn't be any defined number of desktops, and >> definitely you shouldn't be able to see several empty desktops. The point is >> that a new desktop is created every time you start a new app. >> >> A compromise would be to make it action-dependent: clicking on the icon >> would open in new desktop and draging and droping the icon would open it in >> a new dektop (or viceverse). But this is probably far too much of a >> compromise... >> >> >> On 14 April 2011 20:15, Christopher Kahn wrote: >> >>> Hello Ayatana mailing list. >>> >>> This would cause a lot of confusion for users. When you're on a viewport >>> and you click an icon you expect the program to open right in front of you. >>> Whisking the user around to different viewports when he opens programs will >>> cause confusion and frustration... it is not intuitive behaviour. And if I >>> have 4 workspaces and open 5 programs, where does the 5th program open and >>> why? >>> >>> My suggestion is to add an item to launchers' right-click menus: "Open in >>> workspace X", when you click it you'd be be moved to that workspace with the >>> new window open. >>> >>> --Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jorge Ortega >> > wrote: >>> Hi jamur, I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me > the decision to open apps on the same workspace is as arbitrary as the decision to give them their own workspace. Now, I don't have hard data to support this but there it goes anyway: most of the times, when people work with one app. they work with (focus on) just one app at a time. This is even if they have several open: torrent client downloading in the background, the music player playing in the background, the browser open and ready for next time you check facebook or what not. I know that the occasions when you actually need to interact with more than one app at a time are not rare: but I would argue that they are the minority. You are right to say that just now mainly power users use multiple workspaces. But this is mainly down to how badly designed this feature is. There is nothing advanced in working in an orderly and and uncluttered way: this is how it should be by default, no by hard-won skills. From a personal (and anecdotal) point of view: over the years every now and again I've tried to incorporate the use of multiple workspaces in my workflow. I was obviously trying to improve the clutter on the desktop like everyone else. It's never worked for me in the current form. All the other stuff: what to do with multiple instances of an app. how to switch
Re: [Ayatana] Multiple virtual desktops in Unity
> > What if I want to use two applications at once? > I prefer an environment in which I decide where windows are placed and when > they're minimized, and given the ubiquity of such a convention I'd be very > surprised if user testing could demonstrate that others don't. > I may be referring to a web page as I take notes in a word processor, or > copying parts of scripts a friend sent me in an email into GIMP. All sorts > of combinations of simultaneous use are easily imaginable. > For example: drag word processor icon onto Firefox icon. For example: give the option to "lock" a workspace with corresponding icon -say- at the bottom of the unity bar. I prefer an environment in which I decide where windows are placed and when > they're minimized, and given the ubiquity of such a convention I'd be very > surprised if user testing could demonstrate that others don't. But you don't work in an environment in which you decide that all windows are open in the same workspace: this is just the default behaviour and you had to adapt to it. I could argue that the ubiquity of such convention has created the ubiquity of "how the hell do I find my way through this mess of 10 open windows in the same workspace". This is the problem I was trying to address. How many time have you seen it (or suffered it)? some one trying to find that app varied between many other windows... On 14 April 2011 22:10, Richard Gaskin wrote: > On 4/14/11 1:48 PM, Jorge Ortega wrote: > >> I think from now own I'm repeating myself but I'll try again. >> >> If I call them virtual desktops is because they are not real, in the sense >> that Gimp open and running is real. There is not system overhead there. I >> really don't see the extra layer of complexity, quite the opposite. This >> is >> simple: one running app-one dektop/workspace/background. In this respect >> changing between workspaces is not any different than changing between >> running apps: an icon-click or shortcut away. >> >> To be honest, this wouldn't be very different from saying: every time the >> user opens a new app the others get minimize instantly. >> > > I still can't post to the Ayatana List (neither the list admin nor anyone > else I've tried writing to can figure out why), so please forgive me for > writing to you directly but I must ask: > > What if I want to use two applications at once? > > I may be referring to a web page as I take notes in a word processor, or > copying parts of scripts a friend sent me in an email into GIMP. All sorts > of combinations of simultaneous use are easily imaginable. > > I prefer an environment in which I decide where windows are placed and when > they're minimized, and given the ubiquity of such a convention I'd be very > surprised if user testing could demonstrate that others don't. > > That assumes, of course, that user testing of such important and pervasive > design decisions is being done with A/B prototypes. > > If not, then perhaps that's the meta-problem that needs to be solved before > any other design problem can be addressed by more than a hunch. Heuristics > only go so far, and with something as bold as Unity they can be difficult to > apply without prejudice. > > I spoke with Ted Gould at SCaLE about the possibility of drafting user > testing guidelines to allow distributed testing by the community with > minimal cost to Canonical. > > If this sort of thing is of interest I'd be happy to contribute in any way > I can, even if it's just to help set up the logistics to deliver raw data to > the usability professionals at Canonical in a way that avoids potentially > poor interpretation by contributors. > > -- > Richard Gaskin > ___ > ambassa...@fourthworld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
