Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Didier Roche]

Le mardi 15 mars 2011 à 16:37 -0700, Dylan McCall a écrit :
> > After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> > installing Natty to test Unity.
> >
> > I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> > mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
> > over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
> > or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space
> > for its menus is completely empty. I reported a bug about this, but John
> > Lea marked it as Invalid on the grounds that "this change request
> > contradicts the design". He requested that I discuss it here.
> >
> > […]
> >
> > I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
> > should be removed from Unity's menu bar. I'm reliably informed that this
> > would be extremely low risk, in that it would involve changing two lines
> > of code.
> >
> > - --
> > mpt
> 
> Today I have been working on my fix for bug #716177:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/716177
> Right now, the panel acts like the titlebar for the current maximized
> window, but only if it's in focus. That leaves a big hole where a
> maximized window is visible and it isn't in focus, but the top panel
> still looks like it should correspond to that window. (The tldr
> version: try using GIMP, maximized, without frowning). My patch makes
> the top panel's draggable area relate to the front-most maximized
> window regardless of who is in focus.

For your information, I hold this merge request specifically on that
discussion outcome and added some information one the bug report as
well.
(what is funny is that I was thinking how many false positive I trigger
everyday closing the "wrong" application).

Didier


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Mitja Pagon]

And what may those advantages be? Not every application is a web browser
 and not all applications are the same, so this "trend" Chrome 
supposedly started does not automatically apply to all and every 
application. Also this quest for abolishing menus is complete nonsense 
propagated by people who mostly know nothing about user interface design
 / interaction design, user experience design , and this place (ayatana 
list) is, despite an occasional good idea, littered with people like 
that. Sometimes it makes me feel like most people use Ubuntu to just to 
surf pr0n.Different people have stated multiple issues with this
 hidden menus integrated title/controls and many more issues arise when 
trying to tackle those issues while the benefits are almost non 
existent, and that is a dictionary example of bad design.Cheers,MitjaMitja PagonInueni d.o.o., Pot pod Gradiščem 4, SI 4202 NakloTel.: +386 41 521 729e-naslov: mitja.pa...@inueni.com, url: www.inueni.com- Original Message -From: "Marc Lajoie" To: appi2...@gmail.comCc: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.netSent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:20:51 AMSubject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in UnityI, for one, love the integration of the menu and titlebars into the panel in Natty. The decluttering of the workspace, or the "chromifization" (as in Google Chrome, which started the wonderful trend of minimal interfaces and the hiding of visual clutter) of Ubuntu is the main reason I am looking forward to Natty.
So while I understand the concerns about the hidden menu, I agree with the logic of not treating the menu as an indicator, and hiding it up in the panel. Yes, there are a couple of small problems with this approach (mostly discoverability for new users, people using Natty for the very first time), but my opinion is the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
My vote, for what it's worth, is to keep it the way it is!That said, I would not oppose having the menu in the panel being shown by default, instead of the title, in the case of non-maximized windows, with the title/menu overlap occurring only for maximized windows.
Marc LajoieOn Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:59 AM, appi2...@gmail.com  wrote:
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas  wrote:


I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
an application or window title.

1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use. 

2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.The above two problems are important to fix. 



3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.#3 is not that big of a problem - we should avoid it when we can, but if its necessary, its better to have an eyesore than a interaction problem. 




4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
    sometimes inconsistent too.Although this is a problem, a title is necessary for maximized windows, so it has to be shown for them.I proposed a solution to this earlier on this list, but unfortunately, it got no replies. However, I still believe that it can solve the problems brought up here.


My basic idea is: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04555.htmlHowever, I have a change: The Application Title should only be shown for maximized windows, where it is necessary. Otherwise, only the menu should be visible.



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Marc Lajoie]

You can drop the ad hominem attacks. The everyone's-stupid-but-me attitude
is not very productive.

Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes visual
clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an "indicator" conveying
useful information for which it's not suited (more standardized and
consistent menu headings across different applications is definitely
something to be encouraged, taking the guesswork out of menu hunting).

Disadvantages: Menu is disconnected from unmaximized windows, potentially
causing confusion; Menu is not discoverable for first-time user (new user
won't know where the menu is unless he/she accidentally hovers over the
panel)

To say there are no advantages is disingenuous. You believe the
disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Fine, good. I believe the reverse.
You are entitled to your opinion. So am I. The community will decide.
Peace, man.
Marc Lajoie

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Mitja Pagon  wrote:

> And what may those advantages be? Not every application is a web browser
> and not all applications are the same, so this "trend" Chrome supposedly
> started does not automatically apply to all and every application. Also this
> quest for abolishing menus is complete nonsense propagated by people who
> mostly know nothing about user interface design / interaction design, user
> experience design , and this place (ayatana list) is, despite an occasional
> good idea, littered with people like that. Sometimes it makes me feel like
> most people use Ubuntu to just to surf pr0n.
>
> Different people have stated multiple issues with this hidden menus
> integrated title/controls and many more issues arise when trying to tackle
> those issues while the benefits are almost non existent, and that is a
> dictionary example of bad design.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitja
>
>
> Mitja Pagon
>
>
> Inueni d.o.o., Pot pod Gradiščem 4, SI 4202 Naklo
> Tel.: +386 41 521 729
> e-naslov: mitja.pa...@inueni.com, url: www.inueni.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc Lajoie" 
> To: appi2...@gmail.com
> Cc: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:20:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity
>
> I, for one, love the integration of the menu and titlebars into the panel
> in Natty. The decluttering of the workspace, or the "chromifization" (as in
> Google Chrome, which started the wonderful trend of minimal interfaces and
> the hiding of visual clutter) of Ubuntu is the main reason I am looking
> forward to Natty.
> So while I understand the concerns about the hidden menu, I agree with the
> logic of not treating the menu as an indicator, and hiding it up in the
> panel. Yes, there are a couple of small problems with this approach (mostly
> discoverability for new users, people using Natty for the very first time),
> but my opinion is the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
> My vote, for what it's worth, is to keep it the way it is!
> That said, I would not oppose having the menu in the panel being shown by
> default, instead of the title, in the case of non-maximized windows, with
> the title/menu overlap occurring only for maximized windows.
>
> Marc Lajoie
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:59 AM, appi2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
>>> an application or window title.
>>>
>>> 1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.
>>>
>>
>>> 2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.
>>>
>>
>> The above two problems are important to fix.
>>
>>
>>> 3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.
>>>
>>
>> #3 is not that big of a problem - we should avoid it when we can, but if
>> its necessary, its better to have an eyesore than a interaction problem.
>>
>>>
>>> 4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
>>>sometimes inconsistent too.
>>>
>>
>> Although this is a problem, a title is necessary for maximized windows, so
>> it has to be shown for them.
>>
>> I proposed a solution to this earlier on this list, but unfortunately, it
>> got no replies. However, I still believe that it can solve the problems
>> brought up here.
>>
>> My basic idea is: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04555.html
>>
>> However, I have a change: The Application Title should only be shown for
>> maximized windows, where it is necessary. Otherwise, only the menu should be
>> visible.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
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>>
>>
>
> ___
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> Mo

Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Vishnoo]

On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 17:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test Unity.
> 
> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
> over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
> or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space
> for its menus is completely empty. I reported a bug about this, but John
> Lea marked it as Invalid on the grounds that "this change request
> contradicts the design". He requested that I discuss it here.

Hi Matthew, 
Just one doubt, did you ask JohnLea whether he knew it was _you_ who had
filed the bug?

I realize the bug was tagged "sniffles", but when he closed the bug I
just imagined he dint realize it was you filing the bug and gave the
usual response of "discuss on the ML" .(which really shouldnt really
matter, of course, to take a good decision)

Apart from the fact that a weird decision is being taken here, When the
person in-charge of writing the spec for a part of the UI is being
trumped and asked to "take it elsewhere", there seems to be a huge
problem in design decision-making process here..

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Mitja Pagon]

Peace indeed. I'm not implying that you or anyone else is stupid, I'm stating, 
and as irritating as it might be to you, the fact, that most people on here 
(most, not all) don't understand what interaction design is about (and that 
implies lack of understading, not supidity), and you just proved my point, 
interaction design is not about personal opinions, it's a science backed by 
facts. Issues raised are backed by actual science your advantages are mostly a 
personal opinion (you are more that welcome to prove otherwise with actual 
facts). 

And this is an issues that can hardly be resolved by a community, just like 
nuclear plant can't be built by bakers, they simply lack the knowledge. 

Cheers, 
Mitja 


- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Lajoie"  
To: "Mitja Pagon"  
Cc: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net, appi2...@gmail.com 
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:23:48 AM 
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity 

You can drop the ad hominem attacks. The everyone's-stupid-but-me attitude is 
not very productive. 


Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes visual 
clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an "indicator" conveying 
useful information for which it's not suited (more standardized and consistent 
menu headings across different applications is definitely something to be 
encouraged, taking the guesswork out of menu hunting). 


Disadvantages: Menu is disconnected from unmaximized windows, potentially 
causing confusion; Menu is not discoverable for first-time user (new user won't 
know where the menu is unless he/she accidentally hovers over the panel) 


To say there are no advantages is disingenuous. You believe the disadvantages 
outweigh the advantages. Fine, good. I believe the reverse. You are entitled to 
your opinion. So am I. The community will decide. 
Peace, man. 
Marc Lajoie 


On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Mitja Pagon < mitja.pa...@inueni.com > wrote: 





And what may those advantages be? Not every application is a web browser and 
not all applications are the same, so this "trend" Chrome supposedly started 
does not automatically apply to all and every application. Also this quest for 
abolishing menus is complete nonsense propagated by people who mostly know 
nothing about user interface design / interaction design, user experience 
design , and this place (ayatana list) is, despite an occasional good idea, 
littered with people like that. Sometimes it makes me feel like most people use 
Ubuntu to just to surf pr0n. 

Different people have stated multiple issues with this hidden menus integrated 
title/controls and many more issues arise when trying to tackle those issues 
while the benefits are almost non existent, and that is a dictionary example of 
bad design. 

Cheers, 
Mitja 





Mitja Pagon 


Inueni d.o.o., Pot pod Gradiščem 4, SI 4202 Naklo 
Tel.: +386 41 521 729 
e-naslov: mitja.pa...@inueni.com , url: www.inueni.com 



- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Lajoie" < manorap...@gmail.com > 
To: appi2...@gmail.com 
Cc: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:20:51 AM 
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity 




I, for one, love the integration of the menu and titlebars into the panel in 
Natty. The decluttering of the workspace, or the "chromifization" (as in Google 
Chrome, which started the wonderful trend of minimal interfaces and the hiding 
of visual clutter) of Ubuntu is the main reason I am looking forward to Natty. 
So while I understand the concerns about the hidden menu, I agree with the 
logic of not treating the menu as an indicator, and hiding it up in the panel. 
Yes, there are a couple of small problems with this approach (mostly 
discoverability for new users, people using Natty for the very first time), but 
my opinion is the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. 
My vote, for what it's worth, is to keep it the way it is! 
That said, I would not oppose having the menu in the panel being shown by 
default, instead of the title, in the case of non-maximized windows, with the 
title/menu overlap occurring only for maximized windows. 


Marc Lajoie 




On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:59 AM, appi2...@gmail.com < appi2...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas < m...@canonical.com > 
wrote: 


I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with 
an application or window title. 

1. Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use. 




2. It makes some functions effectively invisible. 


The above two problems are important to fix. 




3. The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear. 


#3 is not that big of a problem - we should avoid it when we can, but if its 
necessary, its better to have an eyesore than a interaction problem. 




4. The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and 
sometimes inconsistent too. 


Alt

Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Vishnoo]

On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 21:17 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
> 
> Remco wrote:
> > The thing I find jarring is that we have this mysterious design
> > team that basically discusses things behind our backs here at
> > Ayatana. I understand that a small team with face-to-face
> > meetings can be beneficial to design, but a problem lies in
> > communication and collaboration between the team and Ayatana.
> 
> 
> Yeah, the current situation is... weird, to say the least. I've
> always heard rumors that the design team worked far from the rest,
> but at the same time always felt comforted by the fact that at
> least *someone* from the team (Matthew and, before, David Siegel)
> was active here. Apparently, that doesn't mean much.
> 

Is it a coincidence that the two of them worked in Open source projects
_before_ joining Canonical design team..? ;-)

This topic has been hashed, re-hashed over-n-over again several times..
I, for one, definitely see a huge improvement in communication from the
design team. Several members have replied here to questions that are
being asked. And IMO, recently, this has ceased to be a problem..

We have to realize that this mailing list is *very* high volume and you
really can not expect everyone in the design team to read each-n-every
mail and reply to every idea that is being thrown out at them..
I'm always amazed how Mark is able to keep up though, and at MPT too but
to a lesser extent.. ;-)

And this mailing list is *not* a place for them to propose their ideas.
They have blogged about most of their new ideas on their blog.
This is just a communication channel where we can propose ideas for
their consideration.

I think its high time we dropped the design-team-bashing for not
communicating each and every time a change is made..  ;-)

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Coulson wrote on 15/03/11 18:44:
> On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 17:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>...
>> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
>> should be removed from Unity's menu bar. I'm reliably informed that
>> this would be extremely low risk, in that it would involve changing
>> two lines of code.
>...
> What would happen for maximized windows? I fully agree that displaying
> the window title in the panel for non-maximized windows makes no sense,
> but are you suggesting that we should lose the window title entirely
> for maximized windows too?
>...

The window title is less useful (i.e. used less often) than the menu
titles. So if it was necessary to choose, then yes, I'd choose to hide
the window title when maximized.

I don't think it should be necessary to choose, though. Nobody complains
that maximized windows on the Mac, for example, have the title bar below
the menu bar. Any effort to save more space than that should go towards
a full-screen mode that doesn't have a title bar or window controls at all.

> For the "Connect to Server" example you gave too - this is pretty bad
> even if you *do* know where the menu is, because you need to minimize
> windows and/or click on an empty area on the desktop in order to even
> get the menu to show (and I don't think that's particularly
> discoverable IMO). Is there not a better way to provide such
> functionality (eg, a button in the Files & Folders dash)?
>...

It's present in the "File" menu for all Nautilus windows, not just for
the desktop.

- -- 
mpt
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Marc Lajoie wrote on 16/03/11 09:23:
>...
> Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes
> visual clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an
> "indicator" conveying useful information for which it's not suited
> (more standardized and consistent menu headings across different
> applications is definitely something to be encouraged, taking the
> guesswork out of menu hunting).

Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
titles as an "indicator" in the first place?

- -- 
mpt
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Saleel Velankar wrote on 15/03/11 19:39:
>
> On Tuesday, March 15, 2011 5:34:52 PM Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>>
>> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
>> should be removed from Unity's menu bar.
>
> Possibly. The titlebar is used to differentiate between two windows of
> the same app, or less used to differentiate between windows of
> different apps. By clicking the maximize button, the user is saying
> that I want all the available screen space to be dedicated to this
> window (note: its not this app) please see my tweak to thorwils idea.

The application title can't be used to differentiate two windows of the
same app, because it is identical for both. And almost exactly the same
problems exist for menus of maximized windows as of unmaximized ones;
the redundancy problem is the only one that goes away.

(It would be interesting to replace maximization with a standard
function that really *does* make "all the available screen space ...
dedicated to this window".)

> On Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:28:59 PM Thorsten Wilms wrote:
>>
>> If menus are disliked that much, I wonder where the alternatives are?
>> Piling everything up in one mega-menu is only acceptable for seldom
>> used functionality. Many applications have way to many commands to put
>> them into a toolbar or to sprinkle the interface with them.

Indeed. The mega-menu approach works only for applications with
relatively few distinct functions, such as Web browsers. Even then, it's
at a disadvantage compared with the menu bar: for example, it's quicker
to find a page you visited yesterday in Chrome for Mac (because it has a
full "History" menu) than in Chrome for Ubuntu or Windows (because they
don't).

> In the perfect world, there would be button in the toolbar. when you
> click it will pop-up a box saying "what are you looking to do?" and
> search/display through the menu options based on what the user has
> typed ala GnomeDo/ Krunner.

Mac OS X has that in the Help menu for every application.
 But searching works
only if you are already confident that the application does the exact
thing you're looking for. If you aren't, you still need to be able to
browse the functions of the application. Menus are an information-dense
way of presenting those functions.

>...
> Here is an idea, make it time based. it being 'giving the preference
> to'. If I am watching a youtube video inside a maximized Firefox
> windows, and my mouse activity is low, then the title should be given
> the preference. If my mouse/keyboard activity picks up then the menu
> should be given the preference. I assume this is technically feasible.
>...

The difficulty there is that the menu bar would be flickering from the
menus to the title at a moment when you're probably trying to
concentrate on something else.

- -- 
mpt
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Paul Sladen]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?

The Gimp and various other MDI applications prepend an asterisk ('*')
to the front of the window title to show an edited, but unsaved work.

Whilst I am aware of the convention, I don't notice it and there are
probably better ways of conveying "if your machine naughtily crashes
right now $some unspecified amount of work will be lost".

-Paul


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Marc Lajoie]

Not off the top of my head (which is not an admission that such applications
don't exist, I just don't have time to hunt through my app catalogue right
now).
But one of the solutions proposed for the hidden menu problem, that of not
showing the title at all for maximized windows, would probably lead to
exactly the problem I'd like to avoid. I suspect this would lead some
applications to try to identify themselves in the menu, say, by replacing
the standardly named "file" menu with the name of the application (as in OS
X), in order to avoid confusion. This would be an example of using the menu
as an indicator.

Marc Lajoie

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Marc Lajoie wrote on 16/03/11 09:23:
> >...
> > Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes
> > visual clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an
> > "indicator" conveying useful information for which it's not suited
> > (more standardized and consistent menu headings across different
> > applications is definitely something to be encouraged, taking the
> > guesswork out of menu hunting).
>
> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
>
> - --
> mpt
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
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> B7YAnj90VdbFxffLtL6PLPUhtXT6iiSm
> =C+vE
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Conscious User]

> Is it a coincidence that the two of them worked in Open source projects
> _before_ joining Canonical design team..? ;-)
> 
> This topic has been hashed, re-hashed over-n-over again several times..
> I, for one, definitely see a huge improvement in communication from the
> design team. Several members have replied here to questions that are
> being asked. And IMO, recently, this has ceased to be a problem..
> 
> We have to realize that this mailing list is *very* high volume and you
> really can not expect everyone in the design team to read each-n-every
> mail and reply to every idea that is being thrown out at them..
> I'm always amazed how Mark is able to keep up though, and at MPT too but
> to a lesser extent.. ;-)
> 
> And this mailing list is *not* a place for them to propose their ideas.
> They have blogged about most of their new ideas on their blog.
> This is just a communication channel where we can propose ideas for
> their consideration.
> 
> I think its high time we dropped the design-team-bashing for not
> communicating each and every time a change is made..  ;-)


You completely missed my point. Yes, I'm talking about the lack of
communication between the design team and the community, but this
time as a mere *consequence* of issue actually being discussed:
that the communication is broken *internally* on the design team.

As far as I know, design team members not being aware of other
design team members are doing is *not* a topic "hashed, re-hashed
over-n-over again several times".



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Marc Lajoie]

Design may or may not be an exact science--about the facts, as you say--but
what people actually prefer certainly isn't. There may be occasions when the
majority of people would prefer a slightly sub-optimal solution to the
design-dictated optimal solution, for aesthetic reasons for which no
adequately descriptive science exists. You might make the ultimate interface
from a design perspective, but what use is it if no one wants to use it?
That's why it's important for designers to interract with users, users who
*gasp* may not be design experts themselves, on lists such as these. Staying
in a design bubble with your designer friends doesn't necessarily make good
design (from a user perspective). Note: I have great respect for the field
of design; Less for elitism.

Marc Lajoie

ps. I don't mean this as an attack. I just feel I have a right, as a user,
to voice my opinion on what sort of interface I, personally, would like to
use, and feel that discouraging the participation of ordinary users in the
design process is to no one's benefit in the long-run.

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Mitja Pagon  wrote:

> Peace indeed. I'm not implying that you or anyone else is stupid, I'm
> stating, and as irritating as it might be to you, the fact, that most
> people on here (most, not all) don't understand what interaction design is
> about (and that implies lack of understading, not supidity), and you just
> proved my point, interaction design is not about personal opinions, it's a
> science backed by facts. Issues raised are backed by actual science your
> advantages are mostly a personal opinion (you are more that welcome to prove
> otherwise with actual facts).
>
> And this is an issues that can hardly be resolved by a community, just like
> nuclear plant can't be built by bakers, they simply lack the knowledge.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitja
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc Lajoie" 
> To: "Mitja Pagon" 
> Cc: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net, appi2...@gmail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:23:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity
>
> You can drop the ad hominem attacks. The everyone's-stupid-but-me attitude
> is not very productive.
>
> Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes visual
> clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an "indicator" conveying
> useful information for which it's not suited (more standardized and
> consistent menu headings across different applications is definitely
> something to be encouraged, taking the guesswork out of menu hunting).
>
> Disadvantages: Menu is disconnected from unmaximized windows, potentially
> causing confusion; Menu is not discoverable for first-time user (new user
> won't know where the menu is unless he/she accidentally hovers over the
> panel)
>
> To say there are no advantages is disingenuous. You believe the
> disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Fine, good. I believe the reverse.
> You are entitled to your opinion. So am I. The community will decide.
> Peace, man.
> Marc Lajoie
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Mitja Pagon wrote:
>
>> And what may those advantages be? Not every application is a web browser
>> and not all applications are the same, so this "trend" Chrome supposedly
>> started does not automatically apply to all and every application. Also this
>> quest for abolishing menus is complete nonsense propagated by people who
>> mostly know nothing about user interface design / interaction design, user
>> experience design , and this place (ayatana list) is, despite an occasional
>> good idea, littered with people like that. Sometimes it makes me feel like
>> most people use Ubuntu to just to surf pr0n.
>>
>> Different people have stated multiple issues with this hidden menus
>> integrated title/controls and many more issues arise when trying to tackle
>> those issues while the benefits are almost non existent, and that is a
>> dictionary example of bad design.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Mitja
>>
>>
>> Mitja Pagon
>>
>>
>> Inueni d.o.o., Pot pod Gradiščem 4, SI 4202 Naklo
>> Tel.: +386 41 521 729
>> e-naslov: mitja.pa...@inueni.com, url: www.inueni.com
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Marc Lajoie" 
>> To: appi2...@gmail.com
>> Cc: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:20:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity
>>
>> I, for one, love the integration of the menu and titlebars into the panel
>> in Natty. The decluttering of the workspace, or the "chromifization" (as in
>> Google Chrome, which started the wonderful trend of minimal interfaces and
>> the hiding of visual clutter) of Ubuntu is the main reason I am looking
>> forward to Natty.
>> So while I understand the concerns about the hidden menu, I agree with the
>> logic of not treating the menu as an indicator, and hiding it up in the
>> panel. Yes, there are a couple of small problems with this approach (mostly
>> discoverability for ne

Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Paul Sladen]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Marc Lajoie wrote:
> to voice my opinion on what sort of interface

There is another harder part, which is that the idea doesn't always
correspond to the solution.

For example, "I want the wall to be orange" could (after much
further investigation) turn actually to be a request for one of:

  a. Yellow wall, with red light
  b. White wall, with orange light
  c. Orange wall, with white light

Quite often the same happens with bug reports;  one first has to ask
more questions to figure out /what/ is being asked for, not what
the person /thinks/ they are asking for!  ;-)

-Paul


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Re: [Ayatana] Consolidated Keyboard Indicator (or: Polyglots need love, too)

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Marc Lajoie wrote on 15/03/11 15:22:
>
> Hey, wow, I see you guys are already way ahead of me on this one.
> So how can I help? Is there already some code on this that I can hack
> on?
>...

The existing menu is part of gnome-settings-daemon.


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Saleel Velankar]

On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:00:35 AM Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> (It would be interesting to replace maximization with a standard
> function that really *does* make "all the available screen space ...
> dedicated to this window".)

This is one of the most hated features in osx, imo. It takes control away from 
the user, and heads to very inconsistent results across different 
applications.

> Mac OS X has that in the Help menu for every application.
>  But searching works
> only if you are already confident that the application does the exact
> thing you're looking for. If you aren't, you still need to be able to
> browse the functions of the application. Menus are an information-dense
> way of presenting those functions.

True. I believe in this proof of concept: http://www.afiestas.org/improving-
kde-applications-help-menu-actions-lookup/ ; the dev mitigated this a bit by 
also letting the search go through the tooltips of the menu options.

> 
> The difficulty there is that the menu bar would be flickering from the
> menus to the title at a moment when you're probably trying to
> concentrate on something else.

cant we add an animation to purposefully slow down the flicker to something 
understandable? I mean when the launcher is hidden there is a visual cue to 
where it has gone, why not the same for a menu about to be hidden?

--Saleel

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Marc Lajoie]

I gladly concede the point. But that's exactly the sort of situation that
requires interaction, conversation in order to resolve.

Coming back to the analogy of having bakers design a nuclear reactor: I find
this to be a faulty analogy. A better analogy would be engineers designing a
professional baking oven.
The engineer insists, "No, you know nothing about heat flow, etc. This is
how the oven should be designed."
The baker answers, "But that doesn't correspond to the way I cook!"
A conversation is needed between both to make the ideal oven, because each
lacks information needed for the optimal design. The bakers lack the
science, the engineers knowledge of how it will actually be used.

Or here's another variation, closer to the situation. If nuclear technicians
(who are not engineers, but often just operate the equipment) don't find the
interface to the nuclear reactors intuitive and usable, that's a problem, no
matter what the nuclear engineers say!

Bakers are not the (direct) users of nuclear plants. I will be a direct user
of Ubuntu.

Conversation's the key, baby!
Marc Lajoie

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:16 PM, Paul Sladen  wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Marc Lajoie wrote:
> > to voice my opinion on what sort of interface
>
> There is another harder part, which is that the idea doesn't always
> correspond to the solution.
>
> For example, "I want the wall to be orange" could (after much
> further investigation) turn actually to be a request for one of:
>
>  a. Yellow wall, with red light
>  b. White wall, with orange light
>  c. Orange wall, with white light
>
> Quite often the same happens with bug reports;  one first has to ask
> more questions to figure out /what/ is being asked for, not what
> the person /thinks/ they are asking for!  ;-)
>
>-Paul
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Vishnoo]

On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:37 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
> 
> 
> You completely missed my point. Yes, I'm talking about the lack of
> communication between the design team and the community, 

yup, I replied to only that part of your mail.. and referred only to
that part as being re-hashed.. :-)

> but this
> time as a mere *consequence* of issue actually being discussed:
> that the communication is broken *internally* on the design team.


As for the second part I agree, and I addressed that in my reply towards
Matthew.

I still believe JohnLea might have not realized it was MPT who filed the
bug. Which was why I asked if MPT confirmed, before making this an open
discussion.

Else, we are in a huge mess, if they are lacking communication too.. :s

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Paul Sladen wrote on 16/03/11 11:29:
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>>
>> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
>> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
> 
> The Gimp and various other MDI applications prepend an asterisk ('*')
> to the front of the window title to show an edited, but unsaved work.
>...

They don't change their menu titles, though.

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Scott Kitterman]

On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 08:35:32 am Vishnoo wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:37 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
> > You completely missed my point. Yes, I'm talking about the lack of
> > communication between the design team and the community,
> 
> yup, I replied to only that part of your mail.. and referred only to
> that part as being re-hashed.. :-)
> 
> > but this
> > time as a mere *consequence* of issue actually being discussed:
> > that the communication is broken *internally* on the design team.
> 
> As for the second part I agree, and I addressed that in my reply towards
> Matthew.
> 
> I still believe JohnLea might have not realized it was MPT who filed the
> bug. Which was why I asked if MPT confirmed, before making this an open
> discussion.
> 
> Else, we are in a huge mess, if they are lacking communication too.. :s

A bug is a bug no matter who files it.  If we're down to it's only a real bug 
if certain people file the bug, then that's a real problem.  

Scott K

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Thorsten Wilms]

On 03/16/2011 01:35 PM, Marc Lajoie wrote:


A better analogy would be engineers designing a professional baking oven.
The engineer insists, "No, you know nothing about heat flow, etc. This
is how the oven should be designed."
The baker answers, "But that doesn't correspond to the way I cook!"
A conversation is needed between both to make the ideal oven, because
each lacks information needed for the optimal design. The bakers lack
the science, the engineers knowledge of how it will actually be used.


If you are not under too tight constraints, the question shouldn't be 
how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but 
rather: how should they do it?


Especially given the huge role habituation and familiarity play in early 
evaluation of concepts and implementations by users.


It's a small step from workflow to ritual.

Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than 
anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer 
may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it.


--
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[David Stevenson]

On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> Especially given the huge role habituation and familiarity play in early
> evaluation of concepts and implementations by users.
> 
> It's a small step from workflow to ritual.
> 
> Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than
> anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer
> may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it.
> 

I do agree, much written on this list is about familiarity.
But it is also about preferences, ie. some people prefer keyboard
commands and some prefer using the mouse.
In simplifying the UI we are reducing choice.
I like simple I also like choice

I am optimistic we will end up with a good design, but for me there is a
lot more discussion to go.

David



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Scott Kitterman]

On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 09:01:59 am Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> On 03/16/2011 01:35 PM, Marc Lajoie wrote:
> > A better analogy would be engineers designing a professional baking oven.
> > The engineer insists, "No, you know nothing about heat flow, etc. This
> > is how the oven should be designed."
> > The baker answers, "But that doesn't correspond to the way I cook!"
> > A conversation is needed between both to make the ideal oven, because
> > each lacks information needed for the optimal design. The bakers lack
> > the science, the engineers knowledge of how it will actually be used.
> 
> If you are not under too tight constraints, the question shouldn't be
> how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but
> rather: how should they do it?
> 
> Especially given the huge role habituation and familiarity play in early
> evaluation of concepts and implementations by users.
> 
> It's a small step from workflow to ritual.
> 
> Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than
> anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer
> may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it.

It depends on how important your current user base is to you.  Particularly 
when there are alternatives available, such radical restructuring is more 
likely to result in existing users leaving than them immediately jumping to 
the new paradigm (see KDE 4.0 for example).  It may be that you'll get them 
back in the long run, but many will be gone for good.

Scott K

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Vishnoo]

On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:42 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > 
> > Else, we are in a huge mess, if they are lacking communication too.. :s
> 
> A bug is a bug no matter who files it.  If we're down to it's only a real bug 
> if certain people file the bug, then that's a real problem.  
> 
> Scott K

I completely agree on that.. ;-)
I dint want to keep repeating what i said, hence kept it short:


Btw, it is totally awesome that you agree with this view now.. :)
than from a while ago(no flames intended):
 

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Scott Kitterman]

On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 09:42:17 am Vishnoo wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:42 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > > Else, we are in a huge mess, if they are lacking communication too.. :s
> > 
> > A bug is a bug no matter who files it.  If we're down to it's only a real
> > bug if certain people file the bug, then that's a real problem.
> > 
> > Scott K
> 
> I completely agree on that.. ;-)
> I dint want to keep repeating what i said, hence kept it short:
> 
> 
> Btw, it is totally awesome that you agree with this view now.. :)
> than from a while ago(no flames intended):
> 

That conversation was about priority, not validity.  It was also about getting 
your ideas accepted in other projects.  I think it's a different question.  A 
bug is a bug independent of who filed it.  You may look at one bug first and 
consider the input differently based on the expertise of the filer, but that 
doesn't make it more or less a bug.

Scott K

[resending to the list, vish: sorry you got two]

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Lee Hyde]

On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be
> how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but
> rather: how should they do it?

I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the
following reasons:

1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto

2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design

As I see it (and do correct me if I'm wrong) there is a lack of data
to support the 'how it should be done' philosophy. How does one
arrive at a conclusion of 'how it should be done'? Have there been
any mouse tracking or eye tracking studies on the subject? If so did
any of them cover the ease with which end-users adapted to UI
changes such as the adoption of left-alignment of window controls or
UI changes resulting from switching operating systems? Is there any
data concerning uptake of packages and/or settings to subvert
changes to the UI/X (beyond the mere existence of such packages)?
Without such data I fail to see how one could arrive at a conclusive
decision regards a UI/X redesign.

It would be nice to have some form of opt-in anonymous data
gathering package (census?) for precisely this kind of data
gathering. Something similar to Mozilla's Test Pilot and LabKit
add-ons which could be used to enrol users (which their prior
knowledge and ultimate control) in new UI/X studies and
prototype/proof-of-concept UI/X designs. Whether you'd get enough
participants to make it worth the developers efforts I don't though,
although I would certainly participate in any studies and many
prototypes on offer.

There is of course a place for artistic license, but not at the cost
flexibility or at the risk of dictating how the end-user must use
their computer. For example, would it really be so terrible to offer
the end user options such as positioning of the Unity panel (bottom
or top), or positioning of the Unity dock/springboard? Would it be
terrible to consider the users upgrade path when designing (or
rather setting up) the interface. A lifelong windows user might
prefer a bottom-aligned panel and right-aligned window controls to
smooth the transition whilst a MacOSX user might prefer precisely
the opposite.

On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than
> anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer
> may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it.

It's not always simply a case of user stubbornness.

Speaking from personal experience, the decision to enforce
left-alignment of window controls in Unity will have a negative
impact on my own work flow. Due to circumstances beyond my control I
have little choice but to dual-boot both Ubuntu and Windows. I work
within a laboratory environment wherein many proprietary control and
data analysis software is reliant on a Windows platform (often
legacy). Hence I fund myself having to dual-boot or VM into Windows
frequently, to translate and/or manipulate data gathered via
laboratory equipment. This is a very jarring experience, and the
shift to and fro left-aligned window controls certainly impacts on
my efficiency.

Of course the above use case is a rather nice scenario, but I am
sure than numerous office worker suffer from similarly strict
(although for different reasons entirely) IT provisioning that
forces them to use Windows in the workplace. Some thought ought to
be given to the 'forced to dual-boot' community, as I'm sure it's a
sizeable one. The consistency of user experience should be a goal,
not only within Ubuntu itself, but throughout the users experience.
The Windows platform is unlikely to offer a left-aligned mode, and
so it falls to Ubuntu/Unity to offer an (optional) right-aligned
mode lest risk vexing their 'forced to dual-boot' user base. As
things stand, I will have to forgo Unity in favour of gnome-panel
until this particular issue is addressed (assuming it ever will be)
but if push comes to shove I will have little choice but to default
to Windows (laboratory equipment manufacturers are unlikely to
provision Linux based software any time soon) and I can see myself
using Ubuntu less and less (which is a shame, as I far prefer it to
Windows).

-- 

"The second basic thesis is that intellectual freedom is essential
to human society — freedom to obtain and distribute information,
freedom for open-minded and unfearing debate and freedom from
pressure by officialdom and prejudices. Such a trinity of freedom of
thought is the only guarantee against an infection of people by mass
myths, which, in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues,
can be transformed into bloody dictatorship. Freedom of thought is
the only guarantee of the feasibility of a scientific democratic
approach to politics, economics and culture."

-- Andrei Sakharov, The New York Times (July 22nd, 1968)



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Marc Lajoie]

I am a writer. I write fiction using my computer, which for me is a creative
tool.
My workflow is maybe chaotic, sometimes illogical, but it works for me. An
interface that is not flexible enough to adapt to my creative workflow is a
system I will not use. I am not about to change the way I create my art at
the insistence of a machine.
This is the sort of thing a designer can't hope to understand without some
input from the end-user. Ubuntu is supposed to be for human beings, and
human beings are not always logical; This is not a bug but a feature.
A perfect example is the fullscreen text-editors that are popular among
writers. Interface designers, I suspect, are baffled at why any user would
want to hide the entire interface (including information-giving pieces of
interface that in no way cover or interfere with the writing space). But to
me, and to many writers, having an aesthetically pleasing writing
environment is inspiring. It is not the most logical, efficient possible
layout, granted. But it's pretty, and pretty makes me happy--and being happy
helps me write.

Marc Lajoie

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Lee Hyde  wrote:

> On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> > If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be
> > how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but
> > rather: how should they do it?
>
> I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the
> following reasons:
>
>1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto
>
>2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design
>
> As I see it (and do correct me if I'm wrong) there is a lack of data
> to support the 'how it should be done' philosophy. How does one
> arrive at a conclusion of 'how it should be done'? Have there been
> any mouse tracking or eye tracking studies on the subject? If so did
> any of them cover the ease with which end-users adapted to UI
> changes such as the adoption of left-alignment of window controls or
> UI changes resulting from switching operating systems? Is there any
> data concerning uptake of packages and/or settings to subvert
> changes to the UI/X (beyond the mere existence of such packages)?
> Without such data I fail to see how one could arrive at a conclusive
> decision regards a UI/X redesign.
>
> It would be nice to have some form of opt-in anonymous data
> gathering package (census?) for precisely this kind of data
> gathering. Something similar to Mozilla's Test Pilot and LabKit
> add-ons which could be used to enrol users (which their prior
> knowledge and ultimate control) in new UI/X studies and
> prototype/proof-of-concept UI/X designs. Whether you'd get enough
> participants to make it worth the developers efforts I don't though,
> although I would certainly participate in any studies and many
> prototypes on offer.
>
> There is of course a place for artistic license, but not at the cost
> flexibility or at the risk of dictating how the end-user must use
> their computer. For example, would it really be so terrible to offer
> the end user options such as positioning of the Unity panel (bottom
> or top), or positioning of the Unity dock/springboard? Would it be
> terrible to consider the users upgrade path when designing (or
> rather setting up) the interface. A lifelong windows user might
> prefer a bottom-aligned panel and right-aligned window controls to
> smooth the transition whilst a MacOSX user might prefer precisely
> the opposite.
>
> On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> > Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than
> > anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer
> > may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it.
>
> It's not always simply a case of user stubbornness.
>
> Speaking from personal experience, the decision to enforce
> left-alignment of window controls in Unity will have a negative
> impact on my own work flow. Due to circumstances beyond my control I
> have little choice but to dual-boot both Ubuntu and Windows. I work
> within a laboratory environment wherein many proprietary control and
> data analysis software is reliant on a Windows platform (often
> legacy). Hence I fund myself having to dual-boot or VM into Windows
> frequently, to translate and/or manipulate data gathered via
> laboratory equipment. This is a very jarring experience, and the
> shift to and fro left-aligned window controls certainly impacts on
> my efficiency.
>
> Of course the above use case is a rather nice scenario, but I am
> sure than numerous office worker suffer from similarly strict
> (although for different reasons entirely) IT provisioning that
> forces them to use Windows in the workplace. Some thought ought to
> be given to the 'forced to dual-boot' community, as I'm sure it's a
> sizeable one. The consistency of user experience should be a goal,
> not only within Ubuntu itself, but throughout the users experience.
> The Windows platform i

Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Mitja Pagon]

You picked the wrong example as "left-aligned" windows controls were not a 
design decision "per se", but rather a decision based on Mark Shuttleworth's 
own personal preference, as stated by himself. 

Cheers, 
Mitja 

- Original Message - 
From: "Lee Hyde"  
To: "t w "  
Cc: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:59:20 PM 
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general 

On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote: 
> If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be 
> how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but 
> rather: how should they do it? 

I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the 
following reasons: 

1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto 

2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design 

As I see it (and do correct me if I'm wrong) there is a lack of data 
to support the 'how it should be done' philosophy. How does one 
arrive at a conclusion of 'how it should be done'? Have there been 
any mouse tracking or eye tracking studies on the subject? If so did 
any of them cover the ease with which end-users adapted to UI 
changes such as the adoption of left-alignment of window controls or 
UI changes resulting from switching operating systems? Is there any 
data concerning uptake of packages and/or settings to subvert 
changes to the UI/X (beyond the mere existence of such packages)? 
Without such data I fail to see how one could arrive at a conclusive 
decision regards a UI/X redesign. 

It would be nice to have some form of opt-in anonymous data 
gathering package (census?) for precisely this kind of data 
gathering. Something similar to Mozilla's Test Pilot and LabKit 
add-ons which could be used to enrol users (which their prior 
knowledge and ultimate control) in new UI/X studies and 
prototype/proof-of-concept UI/X designs. Whether you'd get enough 
participants to make it worth the developers efforts I don't though, 
although I would certainly participate in any studies and many 
prototypes on offer. 

There is of course a place for artistic license, but not at the cost 
flexibility or at the risk of dictating how the end-user must use 
their computer. For example, would it really be so terrible to offer 
the end user options such as positioning of the Unity panel (bottom 
or top), or positioning of the Unity dock/springboard? Would it be 
terrible to consider the users upgrade path when designing (or 
rather setting up) the interface. A lifelong windows user might 
prefer a bottom-aligned panel and right-aligned window controls to 
smooth the transition whilst a MacOSX user might prefer precisely 
the opposite. 

On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote: 
> Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than 
> anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer 
> may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it. 

It's not always simply a case of user stubbornness. 

Speaking from personal experience, the decision to enforce 
left-alignment of window controls in Unity will have a negative 
impact on my own work flow. Due to circumstances beyond my control I 
have little choice but to dual-boot both Ubuntu and Windows. I work 
within a laboratory environment wherein many proprietary control and 
data analysis software is reliant on a Windows platform (often 
legacy). Hence I fund myself having to dual-boot or VM into Windows 
frequently, to translate and/or manipulate data gathered via 
laboratory equipment. This is a very jarring experience, and the 
shift to and fro left-aligned window controls certainly impacts on 
my efficiency. 

Of course the above use case is a rather nice scenario, but I am 
sure than numerous office worker suffer from similarly strict 
(although for different reasons entirely) IT provisioning that 
forces them to use Windows in the workplace. Some thought ought to 
be given to the 'forced to dual-boot' community, as I'm sure it's a 
sizeable one. The consistency of user experience should be a goal, 
not only within Ubuntu itself, but throughout the users experience. 
The Windows platform is unlikely to offer a left-aligned mode, and 
so it falls to Ubuntu/Unity to offer an (optional) right-aligned 
mode lest risk vexing their 'forced to dual-boot' user base. As 
things stand, I will have to forgo Unity in favour of gnome-panel 
until this particular issue is addressed (assuming it ever will be) 
but if push comes to shove I will have little choice but to default 
to Windows (laboratory equipment manufacturers are unlikely to 
provision Linux based software any time soon) and I can see myself 
using Ubuntu less and less (which is a shame, as I far prefer it to 
Windows). 

-- 

"The second basic thesis is that intellectual freedom is essential 
to human society — freedom to obtain and distribute information, 
freedom for open-minded and unfearing debate and freedom from 
pressure by official

Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Mitja Pagon]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with full-screen writing software from design 
perspective, actually they make a lot of sense in that particular case (backed 
by science), it's just that that doesn't make full-screen an optimal case for 
every application. 

I suspect that you are somewhat misinterpreting what interaction/user 
experience (even industrial) design is, it's not about forcing designers own 
views upon users, that called bad design and it's sadly omnipresent, it's 
rather about understanding your target audiences needs and providing an optimal 
interface for those needs. 

Users existing habits and work-flow are a common obstacle to adoption of new 
interfaces, but that has more to do with the fear of change and the unknown and 
it doesn't imply that said interface is bad. MS Office ribbon interface is a 
good example of that, lot's existing users complained, but new users and users 
who got beyond that initial fear, were actually very pleased with the 
experience (a similar example in the field of programing languages is VB.NET at 
the time it was released). 

Cheers, 
Mitja 

- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Lajoie"  
To: "Lee Hyde"  
Cc: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:37:11 PM 
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general 


I am a writer. I write fiction using my computer, which for me is a creative 
tool. 
My workflow is maybe chaotic, sometimes illogical, but it works for me. An 
interface that is not flexible enough to adapt to my creative workflow is a 
system I will not use. I am not about to change the way I create my art at the 
insistence of a machine. 
This is the sort of thing a designer can't hope to understand without some 
input from the end-user. Ubuntu is supposed to be for human beings, and human 
beings are not always logical; This is not a bug but a feature. 
A perfect example is the fullscreen text-editors that are popular among 
writers. Interface designers, I suspect, are baffled at why any user would want 
to hide the entire interface (including information-giving pieces of interface 
that in no way cover or interfere with the writing space). But to me, and to 
many writers, having an aesthetically pleasing writing environment is 
inspiring. It is not the most logical, efficient possible layout, granted. But 
it's pretty, and pretty makes me happy--and being happy helps me write. 


Marc Lajoie 

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Lee Hyde < anub...@gmail.com > wrote: 



On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote: 
> If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be 

> how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but 
> rather: how should they do it? 

I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the 
following reasons: 

1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto 

2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design 

As I see it (and do correct me if I'm wrong) there is a lack of data 
to support the 'how it should be done' philosophy. How does one 
arrive at a conclusion of 'how it should be done'? Have there been 
any mouse tracking or eye tracking studies on the subject? If so did 
any of them cover the ease with which end-users adapted to UI 
changes such as the adoption of left-alignment of window controls or 
UI changes resulting from switching operating systems? Is there any 
data concerning uptake of packages and/or settings to subvert 
changes to the UI/X (beyond the mere existence of such packages)? 
Without such data I fail to see how one could arrive at a conclusive 
decision regards a UI/X redesign. 

It would be nice to have some form of opt-in anonymous data 
gathering package (census?) for precisely this kind of data 
gathering. Something similar to Mozilla's Test Pilot and LabKit 
add-ons which could be used to enrol users (which their prior 
knowledge and ultimate control) in new UI/X studies and 
prototype/proof-of-concept UI/X designs. Whether you'd get enough 
participants to make it worth the developers efforts I don't though, 
although I would certainly participate in any studies and many 
prototypes on offer. 

There is of course a place for artistic license, but not at the cost 
flexibility or at the risk of dictating how the end-user must use 
their computer. For example, would it really be so terrible to offer 
the end user options such as positioning of the Unity panel (bottom 
or top), or positioning of the Unity dock/springboard? Would it be 
terrible to consider the users upgrade path when designing (or 
rather setting up) the interface. A lifelong windows user might 
prefer a bottom-aligned panel and right-aligned window controls to 
smooth the transition whilst a MacOSX user might prefer precisely 
the opposite. 


On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote: 

> Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than 
> anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer 
> may 

Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Marc Lajoie]

And you intend to understand your target audience's needs without including
it in the discussion?

Marc Lajoie

ps. Where's your science that says that users resist changing their
work-flow based "more [on] ... fear of change and the unknown"? Isn't it
possible their preferences are not completely invalid?

pps. I have to go to sleep, so will be abandoning this discussion soon.

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Mitja Pagon wrote:

> There is absolutely nothing wrong with full-screen writing software from
> design perspective, actually they make a lot of sense in that particular
> case (backed by science), it's just that that doesn't make full-screen an
> optimal case for every application.
>
> I suspect that you are somewhat misinterpreting what interaction/user
> experience (even industrial) design is, it's not about forcing designers own
> views upon users, that called bad design and it's sadly omnipresent, it's
> rather about understanding your target audiences needs and providing an
> optimal interface for those needs.
>
> Users existing habits and work-flow are a common obstacle to adoption of
> new interfaces, but that has more to do with the fear of change and the
> unknown and it doesn't imply that said interface is bad. MS Office ribbon
> interface is a good example of that, lot's existing users complained, but
> new users and users who got beyond that initial fear, were actually very
> pleased with the experience (a similar example in the field of programing
> languages is VB.NET at the time it was released).
>
> Cheers,
> Mitja
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc Lajoie" 
> To: "Lee Hyde" 
> Cc: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:37:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general
>
> I am a writer. I write fiction using my computer, which for me is a
> creative tool.
> My workflow is maybe chaotic, sometimes illogical, but it works for me. An
> interface that is not flexible enough to adapt to my creative workflow is a
> system I will not use. I am not about to change the way I create my art at
> the insistence of a machine.
> This is the sort of thing a designer can't hope to understand without some
> input from the end-user. Ubuntu is supposed to be for human beings, and
> human beings are not always logical; This is not a bug but a feature.
> A perfect example is the fullscreen text-editors that are popular among
> writers. Interface designers, I suspect, are baffled at why any user would
> want to hide the entire interface (including information-giving pieces of
> interface that in no way cover or interfere with the writing space). But to
> me, and to many writers, having an aesthetically pleasing writing
> environment is inspiring. It is not the most logical, efficient possible
> layout, granted. But it's pretty, and pretty makes me happy--and being happy
> helps me write.
>
> Marc Lajoie
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Lee Hyde  wrote:
>
>> On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
>> > If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be
>> > how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but
>> > rather: how should they do it?
>>
>> I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the
>> following reasons:
>>
>>1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto
>>
>>2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design
>>
>> As I see it (and do correct me if I'm wrong) there is a lack of data
>> to support the 'how it should be done' philosophy. How does one
>> arrive at a conclusion of 'how it should be done'? Have there been
>> any mouse tracking or eye tracking studies on the subject? If so did
>> any of them cover the ease with which end-users adapted to UI
>> changes such as the adoption of left-alignment of window controls or
>> UI changes resulting from switching operating systems? Is there any
>> data concerning uptake of packages and/or settings to subvert
>> changes to the UI/X (beyond the mere existence of such packages)?
>> Without such data I fail to see how one could arrive at a conclusive
>> decision regards a UI/X redesign.
>>
>> It would be nice to have some form of opt-in anonymous data
>> gathering package (census?) for precisely this kind of data
>> gathering. Something similar to Mozilla's Test Pilot and LabKit
>> add-ons which could be used to enrol users (which their prior
>> knowledge and ultimate control) in new UI/X studies and
>> prototype/proof-of-concept UI/X designs. Whether you'd get enough
>> participants to make it worth the developers efforts I don't though,
>> although I would certainly participate in any studies and many
>> prototypes on offer.
>>
>> There is of course a place for artistic license, but not at the cost
>> flexibility or at the risk of dictating how the end-user must use
>> their computer. For example, would it really be so terrible to offer
>> the end user options such as positioning of the Unity panel (bottom

Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Mitja Pagon]

I agree time to sign off, as this discussion is going nowhere and it's not 
really contributing much to anything anymore. Just remember, designers are you 
friends ;) 

Cheers, 
Mitja 

- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Lajoie"  
To: "Mitja Pagon"  
Cc: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net, "Lee Hyde"  
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 5:02:16 PM 
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general 

And you intend to understand your target audience's needs without including it 
in the discussion? 


Marc Lajoie 


ps. Where's your science that says that u sers resist changing their work-flow 
based "more [on] ... fear of change and the unknown"? Isn't it possible their 
preferences are not completely invalid? 


pps. I have to go to sleep, so will be abandoning this discussion soon. 


On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Mitja Pagon < mitja.pa...@inueni.com > wrote: 




There is absolutely nothing wrong with full-screen writing software from design 
perspective, actually they make a lot of sense in that particular case (backed 
by science), it's just that that doesn't make full-screen an optimal case for 
every application. 

I suspect that you are somewhat misinterpreting what interaction/user 
experience (even industrial) design is, it's not about forcing designers own 
views upon users, that called bad design and it's sadly omnipresent, it's 
rather about understanding your target audiences needs and providing an optimal 
interface for those needs. 

Users existing habits and work-flow are a common obstacle to adoption of new 
interfaces, but that has more to do with the fear of change and the unknown and 
it doesn't imply that said interface is bad. MS Office ribbon interface is a 
good example of that, lot's existing users complained, but new users and users 
who got beyond that initial fear, were actually very pleased with the 
experience (a similar example in the field of programing languages is VB.NET at 
the time it was released). 

Cheers, 
Mitja 


- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Lajoie" < manorap...@gmail.com > 
To: "Lee Hyde" < anub...@gmail.com > 
Cc: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:37:11 PM 
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general 





I am a writer. I write fiction using my computer, which for me is a creative 
tool. 
My workflow is maybe chaotic, sometimes illogical, but it works for me. An 
interface that is not flexible enough to adapt to my creative workflow is a 
system I will not use. I am not about to change the way I create my art at the 
insistence of a machine. 
This is the sort of thing a designer can't hope to understand without some 
input from the end-user. Ubuntu is supposed to be for human beings, and human 
beings are not always logical; This is not a bug but a feature. 
A perfect example is the fullscreen text-editors that are popular among 
writers. Interface designers, I suspect, are baffled at why any user would want 
to hide the entire interface (including information-giving pieces of interface 
that in no way cover or interfere with the writing space). But to me, and to 
many writers, having an aesthetically pleasing writing environment is 
inspiring. It is not the most logical, efficient possible layout, granted. But 
it's pretty, and pretty makes me happy--and being happy helps me write. 


Marc Lajoie 

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Lee Hyde < anub...@gmail.com > wrote: 



On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote: 
> If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be 

> how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but 
> rather: how should they do it? 

I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the 
following reasons: 

1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto 

2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design 

As I see it (and do correct me if I'm wrong) there is a lack of data 
to support the 'how it should be done' philosophy. How does one 
arrive at a conclusion of 'how it should be done'? Have there been 
any mouse tracking or eye tracking studies on the subject? If so did 
any of them cover the ease with which end-users adapted to UI 
changes such as the adoption of left-alignment of window controls or 
UI changes resulting from switching operating systems? Is there any 
data concerning uptake of packages and/or settings to subvert 
changes to the UI/X (beyond the mere existence of such packages)? 
Without such data I fail to see how one could arrive at a conclusive 
decision regards a UI/X redesign. 

It would be nice to have some form of opt-in anonymous data 
gathering package (census?) for precisely this kind of data 
gathering. Something similar to Mozilla's Test Pilot and LabKit 
add-ons which could be used to enrol users (which their prior 
knowledge and ultimate control) in new UI/X studies and 
prototype/proof-of-concept UI/X designs. Whether you'd get enough 
participants to make it worth the developers effo

Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Thorsten Wilms]

On 03/16/2011 02:21 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:

On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 09:01:59 am Thorsten Wilms wrote:



Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than
anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer
may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it.


It depends on how important your current user base is to you.  Particularly
when there are alternatives available, such radical restructuring is more
likely to result in existing users leaving than them immediately jumping to
the new paradigm (see KDE 4.0 for example).  It may be that you'll get them
back in the long run, but many will be gone for good.


That's exactly why I mentioned strategy. To expand, you would ideally 
design where you want to end up (caveat: any "end" will only be a step, 
once you are there or past it), then determine how there may be a 
transition and how to communicate the benefits.


*Luckily*, the implementation effort tends to be so huge, that you have 
to go step by step, anyway. I think more thought should be put into 
tools and processes, so design experimentation can be accelerated and 
opened up to more people. Everyone who hasn't yet, should take a good 
look at a Smalltalk implementation like Pharo. If we could have that 
level of malleability at runtime, without being trapped in an image file 
...



--
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Lee Hyde]

On 16/03/11 15:00, Mitja Pagon wrote:
> You picked the wrong example as "left-aligned" windows controls were not
> a design decision "per se", but rather a decision based on Mark
> Shuttleworth's own personal preference, as stated by himself.

Never-the-less it was a design decision, simply one handed down by our
beloved benevolent dictator for life. ;-)

If indeed what you state is the case, and Mark made the decision based
purely on personal preference, that is a rather flimsy basis upon which
to make such a design decision. UI design is part art and part science,
but a decision based on personal preference is neither. Furthermore,
when such decisions result in a locked down UI (like Unity) where the
user is forced to accept someone else's preference, nobody wins (I
wouldn't force Mark to use right-aligned window controls)

As I said before, I would welcome some means of gathering/submitting
user data so that the science part of UI design can be better informed.
Without such data the science of UI design boils down to untested and
unfounded intellectualisms (philosophy, not science) and that really
does vex me. When some know it all claims that the way I have set up
*my* desktop UI is inefficient (pointing to some crackpot theory of UI
design), it belies the fact that there's a human being clicking the
mouse buttons (and this human being likes to optimise his UI to suit his
own work-flow thank you very much).

On 16/03/11 15:25, Mitja Pagon wrote:
> Users existing habits and work-flow are a common obstacle to adoption of
> new interfaces, but that has more to do with the fear of change and the
> unknown and it doesn't imply that said interface is bad. MS Office
> ribbon interface is a good example of that, lot's existing users
> complained, but new users and users who got beyond that initial fear,
> were actually very pleased with the experience (a similar example in the
> field of programing languages is VB.NET at the time it was released).

While it may be true that the primary obstacle to the adoption of new UI
designs it is important to recognise the need for compatibility with
existing and (more importantly) co-existing work-flows. My previous
example regarding left/right alignment of window controls is a case in
point. I have little choice but to use both Windows and Ubuntu as my
work environment (a laboratory) relies on the Windows platform. Thus the
need to repeatedly readjust when switching between operating systems is
a part of the user experience for me (and I'm sure others), albeit a
part of the user experience which isn't unique to Ubuntu. Never the less
I think it would be wrong for Unity's design team to ignore such
externalities, as they *do* form part of the user experience as a whole.
I would dearly like to use Unity as my default shell, but if it disrupts
my work-flow as experience tells me it will, I'll have little choice but
to stick with gnome-panel and (should support for gnome-panel be dropped
before this issue is addressed) eventually ditch Ubuntu altogether in
favour of an all Windows environment or another Linux distribution.

Oh, and I speak as one of the people who welcomed the new ribbon
interface in Microsoft Office. Whilst there was a considerable
adjustment period I felt it was worth the pain for the more efficient
and intuitive ribbon interface. That is, however, a wholly difference
matter to desktop UI decisions that cripple customisability and
disaffect the dual-boot user experience (as one needn't chop and change
between ribbon and classic office UI).

Kind Regards,

Lee.

-- 
"The second basic thesis is that intellectual freedom is essential to
human society — freedom to obtain and distribute information, freedom
for open-minded and unfearing debate and freedom from pressure by
officialdom and prejudices. Such a trinity of freedom of thought is the
only guarantee against an infection of people by mass myths, which, in
the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues, can be transformed
into bloody dictatorship. Freedom of thought is the only guarantee of
the feasibility of a scientific democratic approach to politics,
economics and culture."

-- Andrei Sakharov, The New York Times (July 22nd, 1968)



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[David]

Hi,

> I think more thought should be put into tools and
> processes, so design experimentation can be accelerated and opened up to
> more people.

that's exactly why i am doing this unity web implementation.
just at the moment i have more fun doing mockups than continuing add
more elements of unity.

but give me some time ...
David Reichling


2011/3/16 Thorsten Wilms :
> On 03/16/2011 02:21 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 09:01:59 am Thorsten Wilms wrote:
>
>>> Sometimes the problem may be certain users stubbornness rather than
>>> anything else, especially if you design for the long term. So the answer
>>> may have to be wrapped up in a strategy to "sell" it.
>>
>> It depends on how important your current user base is to you.
>>  Particularly
>> when there are alternatives available, such radical restructuring is more
>> likely to result in existing users leaving than them immediately jumping
>> to
>> the new paradigm (see KDE 4.0 for example).  It may be that you'll get
>> them
>> back in the long run, but many will be gone for good.
>
> That's exactly why I mentioned strategy. To expand, you would ideally design
> where you want to end up (caveat: any "end" will only be a step, once you
> are there or past it), then determine how there may be a transition and how
> to communicate the benefits.
>
> *Luckily*, the implementation effort tends to be so huge, that you have to
> go step by step, anyway. I think more thought should be put into tools and
> processes, so design experimentation can be accelerated and opened up to
> more people. Everyone who hasn't yet, should take a good look at a Smalltalk
> implementation like Pharo. If we could have that level of malleability at
> runtime, without being trapped in an image file ...
>
>
> --
> Thorsten Wilms
>
> thorwil's design for free software:
> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Thorsten Wilms]

On 03/16/2011 02:59 PM, Lee Hyde wrote:

On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:

If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be
how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, but
rather: how should they do it?


I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the
following reasons:

 1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto

 2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design


You actually don't disagree with the assesment, because to do so, you 
would have to understand what I said, instead of just loading off stuff 
that is bugging you, but has nothing to do with my post ;)


I made no statement regarding any perceived motto or philosophy of 
Ubuntu or any design decision that has been made in it at all.


As I can't come up with a car analogy (those tend to be so very 
fitting!), lets look at sports:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_Flop
Something like that would be the ideal outcome of asking "how should it 
be done" and is unlikely to follow from a less ambitious question.


Interaction design is not all about what the computer does, it is also 
about the user side.


Note that user satisfaction can absolutely be a factor feeding into it. 
It's just tricky to deal with "future user's satisfaction, once those 
who learned the old way got over their reluctance".



--
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Lee Hyde]

On 16/03/11 17:16, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> You actually don't disagree with the assesment, because to do so, you
> would have to understand what I said, instead of just loading off stuff
> that is bugging you, but has nothing to do with my post.

I used my own frustrations to illustrate a point and not merely to vent
as you appear to have interpreted (were I venting there would be a *lot*
more swearing and mindless violence believe me ;-)).

The point I was trying to make is that there's unlikely to be a single
unifying or 'right way' to do things. Take the dual-boot use-case and
the left-handed user use-case. Such externalities as other operating
systems and handedness *do* factor into the user experience as a whole,
and yet I suspect little effort has been expended in trying to
understand what impact if any the new (and strict) UI design has on
these end-users. In fact I doubt that a one size fits all solution could
be found for these and/or other special cases, which is why
customisation is key to satisfying all (or the majority of) use cases.

Hence your Fosbury Flop example is frankly specious as it refers to a
technique of proven value and with a clear goal (to jump highest). The
only clear goal in UI is to improve the user experience for the majority
of end-users (a less tangible and less quantifiable goal). How one goes
about this and whether such can be achieved with a rigid and
non-customisable UI design is what I question. Especially with-in a
dual-boot setting (sorry to bring it back to this, but dual-booting is
*not* a niche phenomenon and it does, after all, constitute my own user
experience).

I still contest the notion that one can arrive at a 'how it should be
done' assessment without any data? Without any actual data any UI
designer would be forced to rely on anecdotal evidence and conjecture
and that's no way to arrive at an 'how it should be done'. As I
mentioned earlier, UI design is part art and part science; one should
not ignore the science of UI design, especially when assessing the human
component of the user experience.

> Interaction design is not all about what the computer does,
> it is also about the user side.

This is something we agree on, but it's difficult to see where any
effort has been to take on board user opinion and/or (more importantly)
gather objective data with respect to user-computer interaction (e.g.
mouse and eye tracking experiments).

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the UI design team are sympathetic to user
opinion. It's just far to often have I seen complaints and concerns
about UI changes dismissed with phrases like 'don't worry, it'll be
better this way' and 'this is how it will be done; end of discussion'.
This doesn't exactly inspire confidence. :-(

> Note that user satisfaction can absolutely be a factor
> feeding into it. It's just tricky to deal with
> "future user's satisfaction, once those who learned
> the old way got over their reluctance".

Other than bug trackers, mailing lists and forums where else exactly can
one reliably interact with developers in a way that won't boil down to a
clash of opinion. This is precisely why I admire Mozilla's science based
approach to UI design (represented by Test Pilot and LabKits), as such
approaches tend to take personal preferences and developer politics out
of the equation. Presenting developers with a valuable pool of anonymous
data with which to plan UI design. It would be excellent if (in the long
run at least) Unity/Ubuntu developers moved in a similar direction
(providing a Test Pilot like package allowing end-users to enrol in UI
studies and prototypes). All the bug trackers, mailing lists and forums
in the world can't provide the kind of irrefutable, evidence based
gleanings (of how humans interface with their computers) that such a
package could provide.

Since future users are such an unknown element, and attempting to cater
to them is tantamount to trying to create *the* perfect UI (whose very
existence I doubt) perhaps energy *should* be focused on existing users
and known use-cases. It seems to me that trying to design a UI for a
mythic future user is foolish, since as you rightly state *it's tricky*.

Kind Regards,

Lee.

-- 
"Crime is naught but misdirected energy. So long as every institution of
today, economic, political, social, and moral, conspires to misdirect
human energy into wrong channels; so long as most people are out of
place doing the things they hate to do, living a life they loathe to
live, crime will be inevitable, and all the laws on the statutes can
only increase, but never do away with, crime."

-- Emma Goldman, Anarchism: What it Really Stands For (1910)



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problems in general

[Bazon]

On 03/16/2011 02:59 PM, Lee Hyde wrote:

On 16/03/11 13:01, Thorsten Wilms wrote:

If you are not under too tight constraints, the questionshouldn't be
how something is being done, not even how users would like to do it, 
but

rather: how should they do it?


I thoroughly disagree with this assessment of UI/X design for the
following reasons:

 1. It flies in the face of Ubuntu's "Linux for Humans" motto

 2. There is a risk of over-intellectualising UI/X design


IMHO an important point. I use Linux because it let's me the choice how 
to do a thing and how the user interface should look and behave. And I 
assume I'm not the only one seeing it that way.


Regarding that, the first step in Unity is a huge step backwards. e.g. I 
really miss the the ability to configure the Gnome panel any way I want to.


So please keep that in mind and let's hope, that the next step is again 
a big step forward. (as it is regarding the visual design by now, but 
usability and reconfigurability have to be improved.)


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Bazon]

On 16.03.2011 10:23, Marc Lajoie wrote:


Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes 
visual clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an 
"indicator" conveying useful information for which it's not suited 
(more standardized and consistent menu headings across different 
applications is definitely something to be encouraged, taking the 
guesswork out of menu hunting).


Disadvantages: Menu is disconnected from unmaximized windows, 
potentially causing confusion; Menu is not discoverable for first-time 
user (new user won't know where the menu is unless he/she accidentally 
hovers over the panel)




adding one more disadvantage:
before, you could directly switch from one window to another windows 
menu by just one click, now you can't.



a solution I would like to see:
switching title/menu on mouse hover also for non-maximized windows. that 
would keep all advantages and avoid the disadvantages.
plus we could have a configurable top panel again   (...which is 
hidden when maximized windows appear)


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Bazon]

On 16.03.2011 18:08, David wrote:

Hi,
i just want to add my 2cts
(but its to late for natty so you need to continue anyway ;-))
i think we should really let the user choose and just discussing about
the best default.
See settings.png

Yes, I totally agree on that!


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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Saleel Velankar]

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
>
> - --
> mpt
>

Firefox, private browsing mode. the tilebar is how private mode status is
conveyed to user.
-- 
Saleel
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Ian Santopietro]

I don't think the issue is using titles to display status; rather using
menus. Look at Rhythmbox, Gnome Calculator, Empathy, and a few others.
On Mar 16, 2011 9:28 PM, "Saleel Velankar"  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>
>> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
>> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
>>
>> - --
>> mpt
>>
>
> Firefox, private browsing mode. the tilebar is how private mode status is
> conveyed to user.
> --
> Saleel
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[Ayatana] Dash should be in full screen by default in desktop

[Muhammad Nabil]

Dash in full screen looks better. Thanks.
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