Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button

[David]

Hello,

> Let's see what people who try it have to say. Don't worry if there is
> negative feedback, that's what exploring and testing are all about.

i think the feedback was quite good.
for those who didn't see it, the mockups were also on omgubuntu and webupd8

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/these-conceptual-unity-behaviour-mockups-are-pretty-cool/
http://www.webupd8.org/2011/03/more-unity-2-sided-dock-mockups-ubuntu.html
http://www.webupd8.org/2011/03/unity-two-sided-dock-mockup.html

There was a comment that made a good point:
#3 looks good at first, but clicking the button just takes you back to
the clutter you were trying to avoid by splitting the icons in the
first place.

what do you think.
What if we remove apps and places icons and put it at the first page of the dash

David Reichling

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Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button

[Arian van Gend]

That just means cluttering the dash instead of the launcher, which I don't
fancy, since at the moment, I really don't like the way the Dash works. It
feels too inefficient.

2011/3/15 David 

> Hello,
>
> > Let's see what people who try it have to say. Don't worry if there is
> > negative feedback, that's what exploring and testing are all about.
>
> i think the feedback was quite good.
> for those who didn't see it, the mockups were also on omgubuntu and webupd8
>
>
> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/these-conceptual-unity-behaviour-mockups-are-pretty-cool/
> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/03/more-unity-2-sided-dock-mockups-ubuntu.html
> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/03/unity-two-sided-dock-mockup.html
>
> There was a comment that made a good point:
> #3 looks good at first, but clicking the button just takes you back to
> the clutter you were trying to avoid by splitting the icons in the
> first place.
>
> what do you think.
> What if we remove apps and places icons and put it at the first page of the
> dash
>
> David Reichling
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Consolidated Keyboard Indicator (or: Polyglots need love, too)

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Marc Lajoie wrote on 13/03/11 09:27:
>
> Ubuntu needs a consolidated keyboard indicator, one that allows users
> to change keyboard layouts and keyboard input methods all in one place.
> Check out the attached image to see what a disaster the current setup
> is.
>...

If you can help out with this, please do.


- -- 
mpt
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk1/QuoACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqocgCfVLwFL3qazPhPrOvFxX9dAv59
dfcAoIwMm6AFmRrPRNcBxIN57RpWzkti
=89PF
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Ayatana] We need a short-term solution for mail applications and the messaging menu

[Conscious User]

> I use Thunderbird, which doesn't get hidden either. Evolution should be killed
> with fire, in my opinion. The entire framework is convoluted as hell, and when
> facing an unstable network, it hangs completely. Messaging Menu aside, I think
> the whole issue of hanging due to an unstable network is unacceptable, and
> hardly the right user experience to be pushing out either. And worse still --
> when you have a network calendar added to Evolution, and an unstable network,
> the desktop calendar applet thing hangs when you attempt to open it. How 
> nice, eh?


Evolution itself is not the point of this thread. I'm (trying to)
discuss issues that, like you said yourself, are *also* present
in Thunderbird.

The subject is already receiving less attention than I wanted
without being derailed, so I politely ask you to start another
thread if you want to discuss Evolution bugs. :)



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Re: [Ayatana] We need a short-term solution for mail applications and the messaging menu

[Jeremy Nickurak]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 19:21, Conscious User  wrote:

> I have the impression that the user experience of Evolution
> always ends up being overlooked because the majority of
> people uses a webmail client and does not really care.


>From my perspective, the only time I use a non-webmail client is for
interoperability with Outlook at work. As has been suggested frequently,
with either thunderbird or evolution, the experience is inconsistent at
best. Without them, there's no indicator/messaging-menu experience at all.

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[Ayatana] Sound theme

[Peterson Silva]

For the love of the goddess, please somebody say we'll have a new sound
theme this time. Or that someone's working on it.

I mean... Please don't *forget* it =x

*Peterson*
*http://petercast.net*
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[M. Adnan Quaium]

On 15 March 2011 15:47, Peterson Silva  wrote:

> For the love of the goddess, please somebody say we'll have a new sound
> theme this time. Or that someone's working on it.
>
> I mean... Please don't *forget* it =x
>
> *Peterson*
> *http://petercast.net*
>
>
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+1

We need a new unique set of lucrative cool icon set as well. Neither the
humanity nor a modified version of humanity any more. We need completely new
set of unique icon, which must be way cooler than FAENZA. Does anybody know
anything about new icon project or is there any work going on?




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URL: http://adnan.quaium.com
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[Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[andrea azzarone]

Maybe this is batter than a simple 
mockup:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embeddedI have 
used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted to make the idea!I 
hope you like it!Andrea 
Azzaronehttp://www.ubuntusecrets.it 
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Re: [Ayatana] Consolidated Keyboard Indicator (or: Polyglots need love, too)

[Marc Lajoie]

Hey, wow, I see you guys are already way ahead of me on this one.
So how can I help? Is there already some code on this that I can hack on?

Marc Lajoie

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Marc Lajoie wrote on 13/03/11 09:27:
> >
> > Ubuntu needs a consolidated keyboard indicator, one that allows users
> > to change keyboard layouts and keyboard input methods all in one place.
> > Check out the attached image to see what a disaster the current setup
> > is.
> >...
>
> If you can help out with this, please do.
> 
>
> - --
> mpt
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk1/QuoACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqocgCfVLwFL3qazPhPrOvFxX9dAv59
> dfcAoIwMm6AFmRrPRNcBxIN57RpWzkti
> =89PF
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Peterson Silva]

Wow, this is awesome! =D

Could you also show how would it work with auto/itelli-hide on?

*Peterson*
*http://petercast.net*



On 15 March 2011 12:18, andrea azzarone  wrote:

>  Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
>
> I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted to make
> the idea!
>
> I hope you like it!
>
> Andrea Azzarone
> 
> http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Marco Biscaro]

It looks like nice. Very nice. Very, very nice! This could be included
as an extra for Unity (the feature could be enabled or disabled via
ccsm, for example).

On Ter, 2011-03-15 at 16:18 +0100, andrea azzarone wrote:
> Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted
> to make the idea!
> 
> 
> I hope you like it!
> 
> 
> Andrea Azzarone
> 
> http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Marc Lajoie]

Andrea Azzarone, you are officially da man. I just got my development
environment up and running so I could hack this thing together, and lo and
behold you beat me to it, implementing it exactly as I intended to, to boot
Two questions:
1) With autohide on, does it work as in my mockup (http://unity.exemo.net/5/)?
In the case of a touchscreen device, does clicking the home button recall
the dock?
2) Where's your branch, or a patch so I can try this bad boy out?

Marc Lajoie

ps. Seriously. You rock.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Marco Biscaro
wrote:

> It looks like nice. Very nice. Very, very nice! This could be included
> as an extra for Unity (the feature could be enabled or disabled via
> ccsm, for example).
>
> On Ter, 2011-03-15 at 16:18 +0100, andrea azzarone wrote:
> > Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
> >
> >
> > I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted
> > to make the idea!
> >
> >
> > I hope you like it!
> >
> >
> > Andrea Azzarone
> > 
> > http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
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>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Peterson Silva]

Yeah I think this is best; the user would find things the way he left them
=D

*Peterson*
*http://petercast.net*



On 15 March 2011 13:08, andrea azzarone  wrote:

>  When you call it back you will view the last side but i can change this
> behavior! I wait only for suggestions!
>
> --
> From: peterson@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 12:46:34 -0300
>
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.
> To: aazzar...@hotmail.it
>
> Yes, but I mean, if I call the launcher, change the side, and then the
> launcher hides automatically. When I call it back, will it be on the first
> side again or the side I had changed to previously
>
> Also, clicking twice on the ubuntu icon would make the launcher disappear
> or change to the first side again?
>
> *Peterson*
> *http://petercast.net*
>
>
>
> On 15 March 2011 12:43, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>
>  It has the same behavior. When the launcher is hiden the side doesn't
> change but i can add this!
>
> --
> From: peterson@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 12:39:43 -0300
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.
> To: aazzar...@hotmail.it
> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>
>
> Wow, this is awesome! =D
>
> Could you also show how would it work with auto/itelli-hide on?
>
> *Peterson*
> *http://petercast.net*
>
>
>
> On 15 March 2011 12:18, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>
>  Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
>
> I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted to make
> the idea!
>
> I hope you like it!
>
> Andrea Azzarone
> 
> http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[M. Adnan Quaium]

@Andrea Azzarone and @Marc Lajoie

I really liked both of your ideas! Rocking Idea!! It should be implemented
in the Unity by default.




On 15 March 2011 17:12, Marc Lajoie  wrote:

> Andrea Azzarone, you are officially da man. I just got my development
> environment up and running so I could hack this thing together, and lo and
> behold you beat me to it, implementing it exactly as I intended to, to boot
> Two questions:
> 1) With autohide on, does it work as in my mockup (
> http://unity.exemo.net/5/)? In the case of a touchscreen device, does
> clicking the home button recall the dock?
> 2) Where's your branch, or a patch so I can try this bad boy out?
>
> Marc Lajoie
>
> ps. Seriously. You rock.
>
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Marco Biscaro <
> marcobiscaro2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It looks like nice. Very nice. Very, very nice! This could be included
>> as an extra for Unity (the feature could be enabled or disabled via
>> ccsm, for example).
>>
>> On Ter, 2011-03-15 at 16:18 +0100, andrea azzarone wrote:
>> > Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
>> >
>> >
>> > I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted
>> > to make the idea!
>> >
>> >
>> > I hope you like it!
>> >
>> >
>> > Andrea Azzarone
>> > 
>> > http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
>> > ___
>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>> > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Marc Lajoie]

I disagree. I think the launcher should always come back showing the apps
side. After all, the launcher is much more often used to do app
switching/launching of favorite apps, than to call up the dash (which is
used for more infrequent tasks), so having it appear always showing the more
often used side would be a time-saver in the long-run.
That's my vote anyways!

Marc Lajoie

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Peterson Silva wrote:

> Yeah I think this is best; the user would find things the way he left them
> =D
>
> *Peterson*
> *http://petercast.net*
>
>
>
> On 15 March 2011 13:08, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>
>>  When you call it back you will view the last side but i can change this
>> behavior! I wait only for suggestions!
>>
>> --
>> From: peterson@gmail.com
>> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 12:46:34 -0300
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.
>> To: aazzar...@hotmail.it
>>
>> Yes, but I mean, if I call the launcher, change the side, and then the
>> launcher hides automatically. When I call it back, will it be on the first
>> side again or the side I had changed to previously
>>
>> Also, clicking twice on the ubuntu icon would make the launcher disappear
>> or change to the first side again?
>>
>> *Peterson*
>> *http://petercast.net*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 March 2011 12:43, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>>
>>  It has the same behavior. When the launcher is hiden the side doesn't
>> change but i can add this!
>>
>> --
>> From: peterson@gmail.com
>> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 12:39:43 -0300
>> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.
>> To: aazzar...@hotmail.it
>> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>>
>>
>> Wow, this is awesome! =D
>>
>> Could you also show how would it work with auto/itelli-hide on?
>>
>> *Peterson*
>> *http://petercast.net*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 March 2011 12:18, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>>
>>  Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
>>
>> I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted to make
>> the idea!
>>
>> I hope you like it!
>>
>> Andrea Azzarone
>> 
>> http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Vishnoo]

On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 16:18 +0100, andrea azzarone wrote:
> Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted
> to make the idea!
> 
> 
> I hope you like it!

(Not sure if this design gets accepted or not)
But, just wanted to say.. It's pretty awesome, that you've got a working
version up and running from a discussion here..!
Open source FTW..! ;)

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[S. Christian Collins]

On 03/15/2011 09:55 AM, M. Adnan Quaium wrote:
We need a new unique set of lucrative cool icon set as well. Neither 
the humanity nor a modified version of humanity any more. We need 
completely new set of unique icon, which must be way cooler than 
FAENZA. Does anybody know anything about new icon project or is there 
any work going on?


I disagree that Ubuntu needs a new icon set; the current one looks 
unique and high-quality.  I think a new sound theme is more important; 
the old sound theme doesn't really seem to fit with the new visual style.


-~Chris

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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Peterson Silva]

@Marc

Hmm it really makes sense, yeah.

*Peterson*
*http://petercast.net*



On 15 March 2011 13:39, Marc Lajoie  wrote:

> I disagree. I think the launcher should always come back showing the apps
> side. After all, the launcher is much more often used to do app
> switching/launching of favorite apps, than to call up the dash (which is
> used for more infrequent tasks), so having it appear always showing the more
> often used side would be a time-saver in the long-run.
> That's my vote anyways!
>
> Marc Lajoie
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Peterson Silva 
> wrote:
>
>> Yeah I think this is best; the user would find things the way he left them
>> =D
>>
>> *Peterson*
>> *http://petercast.net*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 March 2011 13:08, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>>
>>>  When you call it back you will view the last side but i can change this
>>> behavior! I wait only for suggestions!
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: peterson@gmail.com
>>> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 12:46:34 -0300
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.
>>> To: aazzar...@hotmail.it
>>>
>>> Yes, but I mean, if I call the launcher, change the side, and then the
>>> launcher hides automatically. When I call it back, will it be on the first
>>> side again or the side I had changed to previously
>>>
>>> Also, clicking twice on the ubuntu icon would make the launcher disappear
>>> or change to the first side again?
>>>
>>> *Peterson*
>>> *http://petercast.net*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15 March 2011 12:43, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>>>
>>>  It has the same behavior. When the launcher is hiden the side doesn't
>>> change but i can add this!
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: peterson@gmail.com
>>> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 12:39:43 -0300
>>> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.
>>> To: aazzar...@hotmail.it
>>> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>>>
>>>
>>> Wow, this is awesome! =D
>>>
>>> Could you also show how would it work with auto/itelli-hide on?
>>>
>>> *Peterson*
>>> *http://petercast.net*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15 March 2011 12:18, andrea azzarone  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
>>>
>>> I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted to make
>>> the idea!
>>>
>>> I hope you like it!
>>>
>>> Andrea Azzarone
>>> 
>>> http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [Ayatana] Double side springboard! The video.

[Conscious User]

Looking good!

I think the corner button could flip the launcher AND activate
the Dash. It makes sense:

- clicking on an application launcher closes the Dash if it's
  open anyway, so there's little use in making the "application
  side" available when the Dash is open

- the tendency is to Dash gradually replace Nautilus in everyday
  usage, so it makes sense that when Dash is open the launcher
  is populated with folders and devices... and clicking on them
  could switch the Dash context instead of opening Nautilus


Le mardi 15 mars 2011 à 16:18 +0100, andrea azzarone a écrit :
> Maybe this is batter than a simple mockup:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RudBG7pfzg&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I have used ubuntu logo as Shortcuts dash, because I just wanted
> to make the idea!
> 
> 
> I hope you like it!
> 
> 
> Andrea Azzarone
> 
> http://www.ubuntusecrets.it
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[Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
installing Natty to test Unity.

I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space
for its menus is completely empty. I reported a bug about this, but John
Lea marked it as Invalid on the grounds that "this change request
contradicts the design". He requested that I discuss it here.

The design John cited is not the menu bar specification
, but a separate "The Unity Menu"
document that is new to me.


I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
an application or window title.

1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.

The "The Unity Menu" document says that "The top level of the menu
rarely shows significant information (it is not an indicator) - it
consists essentially of category headings, like 'File' and 'Edit'
and 'View'. None of those add any relevant information to the task
at hand, or wider awareness."

Whoever wrote that is mistaken. Every time the task at hand involves
using a menu, it is necessary first to be aware of, and then to move
the pointer to, the desired menu. That is much harder to do if the
menu is invisible until just after you finish needing to know where
it is. Whether the menus collectively are "an indicator" is
irrelevant: the first item in the rationale, for what determines
whether something appears in the menu bar, has always been "It's
not whether it's a status indicator".


2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.

For example, last month Jack Wallen wrote for TechRepublic
: "One of the
most handy menu entries in GNOME (for me at least) is the Connect
to Server entry in the Places menu. This allows the user to connect
to nearly any type of server quickly and easily. The user can even
connect to a Windows Share from here. In Unity - you won’t find
that. In fact, you will be hard pressed to find any means to
connect to a server in Ubuntu Unity."

At the time, I didn't understand how he could have had that problem.
Now I do. The "Connect to Server" item, which is in the "Places"
menu on the Ubuntu 10.10 desktop, is in the "File" menu on the
Natty desktop. But the desktop appears, incorrectly, to have no
menus at all.

The "The Unity Menu" document says "Many modern applications are
being designed without substantial menus". The problem with that
approach was explained in my initial post introducing the menu bar:
it results in gratuitous inconsistency between applications.
 But that is
beside the point. Hiding menus for windows that *do* rely on them
does nobody any good.

3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.

For example, when using Nautilus's menus, the menu bar reads
File Man File Edit View Go Bookmarks Help.

Similarly when using Terminal's menus, the menu bar reads
Termina File Edit View Search Terminal Help.

And when using Calculator's menus, the menu bar gets a stutter:
Calculat Calculator Mode Help.

4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
sometimes inconsistent too.

For example, when that Calculator window is open, its title bar says
"Calculator", and the menu bar pointlessly repeats "Calculator".
When a Banshee window is open, its title bar says "Banshee Media
Player", and the menu bar repeats "Banshee Media Player". When a
PolicyKit authentication alert is open, its title bar says
"Authenticate", and the menu bar repeats "Authenticate".

Other windows are inconsistent. For example, Firefox's title bar
says "Mozilla Firefox", but the menu bar disagrees, saying
"Firefox Web Browser". Shotwell's title bar says "Shotwell", but
the menu bar says "Shotwell Photo Manager". Most amusingly, if you
open a presentation in LibreOffice and then open an accompanying
spreadsheet, the title bar says "LibreOffice Calc" while the menu
bar says "LibreOffice Impress".

There are two paragraphs in the "The Unity Menu" document that I agree
with. One says: "The top edge of the screen has some advantages for fine
mouse pointer targeting." But that is true only when you know where the
target area is before you begin. The other says: "Screen space is
extremely valuable, and we prefer to use pixels for content that is
uniqu

Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[Marco Biscaro]

I think that the initial discussion was about a *sound* theme, wasn't
it?

On Ter, 2011-03-15 at 11:46 -0500, S. Christian Collins wrote:
> On 03/15/2011 09:55 AM, M. Adnan Quaium wrote:
> > We need a new unique set of lucrative cool icon set as well. Neither 
> > the humanity nor a modified version of humanity any more. We need 
> > completely new set of unique icon, which must be way cooler than 
> > FAENZA. Does anybody know anything about new icon project or is there 
> > any work going on?
> 
> I disagree that Ubuntu needs a new icon set; the current one looks 
> unique and high-quality.  I think a new sound theme is more important; 
> the old sound theme doesn't really seem to fit with the new visual style.
> 
> -~Chris
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme / icon set

[Paul Sladen]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011, M. Adnan Quaium wrote:
> On 15 March 2011 15:47, Peterson Silva  wrote:
> > have a new sound theme this time.
> +1 ... icon set

Hello Peterson and Adnan,

I suspect the answer to these are much along the same lines as
something I gave on AskUbuntu recently, to a question about the fonts:

  "Will there be a Ubuntu Serif font in the future?"
  
http://askubuntu.com/questions/26104/will-there-be-a-ubuntu-serif-font-in-the-future

The answer here is that it depends not only on time and enthusiasm
but finding very skilled people and getting them involved---with their
background knowledge and experience.  For doing a full Ubuntu Serif
companion font expansion, I suggested that perhaps means:

 1 Find a type designer who is interested
 2 Work with them to make a beautiful, complementary and hinted expansion

It'll take a while too; before you could even start such a process
(which will take a *long* time) it would be necessary to understand
the background.  What is it _for_?  Why would it be done/re-done?

Lots of people can draw icons, or create sounds or make fonts; but
will the results fit together?  Will they be beautiful as a whole? If
we here working on Ayatana want to push the state of people's
computering experiences forward then there's not much point making
fonts, icons, sounds or backgrounds "for the sake of it".  They need
to definitely improve on what is there already there and we need to be
able to scientifically prove that that is the case.

Once that research and development is done in Ayatana (which will
benefit everyone), you can start to think about the Ubuntu case.
The Ubuntu desktop and brand is a jigsaw of many parts.  Admittedly
not all of those parts fit perfectly at the moment, but if you change
one piece only; the piece next to it might not fit as well.

If you want something to happen and care about it, the best approach
is probably to find the people with the skills and get them interested
in what Ubuntu is---what it's doing and how they can help make a
difference to millions of people's computing lives everyday.  The
sooner one can find the right people, the sooner your and other
people's dreams can come true!

You've each suggested icons and sounds.  Do you have any world-class
contacts in those genres?  Contacts capable of /not/ just designing
sounds or icons, but those who can create guides /for creating/
icons or sounds and prove why the changes are an improvement over
what's available!

-Paul


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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[Ingo Gerth]

A while ago I asked a question concerning the sound theme on askubuntu.
Check it out:
http://askubuntu.com/questions/21840/are-there-still-plans-for-a-new-sound-theme
It
appears that the design team is on it, although there has been no further
news recently.

About icons: Mark mentioned plenty of times that there will most likely be a
new set for 12.04 LTS. Just be patient guys :).

-- Ingo

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Marco Biscaro
wrote:

> I think that the initial discussion was about a *sound* theme, wasn't
> it?
>
> On Ter, 2011-03-15 at 11:46 -0500, S. Christian Collins wrote:
> > On 03/15/2011 09:55 AM, M. Adnan Quaium wrote:
> > > We need a new unique set of lucrative cool icon set as well. Neither
> > > the humanity nor a modified version of humanity any more. We need
> > > completely new set of unique icon, which must be way cooler than
> > > FAENZA. Does anybody know anything about new icon project or is there
> > > any work going on?
> >
> > I disagree that Ubuntu needs a new icon set; the current one looks
> > unique and high-quality.  I think a new sound theme is more important;
> > the old sound theme doesn't really seem to fit with the new visual style.
> >
> > -~Chris
> >
> > ___
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>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Conscious User]

> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application
> title should be removed from Unity's menu bar. I'm reliably
> informed that this would be extremely low risk, in that it
> would involve changing two lines of code.

But how would be the design for maximized windows? I'm guessing
the fixed-size title in the menubar is there to occupy the
same space the buttons do when maximized, so the menubar doesn't
"move" when the window is maximized.

Plus, for maximized windows there is also the problem of how
the (potentially long) title and the menubar could share
the panel without the show-on-hover.

On a side note, I'm kinda baffled at how fragmented the design
process seems to be judging by this email... I thought mpt was
aware of this for a long time.



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Spike Burch]

I can verify that hiding the menus by default is problematic in my
(limited) user testing.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas  
wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test Unity.
>
> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
> over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
> or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space
> for its menus is completely empty. I reported a bug about this, but John
> Lea marked it as Invalid on the grounds that "this change request
> contradicts the design". He requested that I discuss it here.
>
> The design John cited is not the menu bar specification
> , but a separate "The Unity Menu"
> document that is new to me.
> 
>
> I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
> an application or window title.
>
> 1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.
>
>    The "The Unity Menu" document says that "The top level of the menu
>    rarely shows significant information (it is not an indicator) - it
>    consists essentially of category headings, like 'File' and 'Edit'
>    and 'View'. None of those add any relevant information to the task
>    at hand, or wider awareness."
>
>    Whoever wrote that is mistaken. Every time the task at hand involves
>    using a menu, it is necessary first to be aware of, and then to move
>    the pointer to, the desired menu. That is much harder to do if the
>    menu is invisible until just after you finish needing to know where
>    it is. Whether the menus collectively are "an indicator" is
>    irrelevant: the first item in the rationale, for what determines
>    whether something appears in the menu bar, has always been "It's
>    not whether it's a status indicator".
> 
>
> 2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.
>
>    For example, last month Jack Wallen wrote for TechRepublic
>    : "One of the
>    most handy menu entries in GNOME (for me at least) is the Connect
>    to Server entry in the Places menu. This allows the user to connect
>    to nearly any type of server quickly and easily. The user can even
>    connect to a Windows Share from here. In Unity - you won’t find
>    that. In fact, you will be hard pressed to find any means to
>    connect to a server in Ubuntu Unity."
>
>    At the time, I didn't understand how he could have had that problem.
>    Now I do. The "Connect to Server" item, which is in the "Places"
>    menu on the Ubuntu 10.10 desktop, is in the "File" menu on the
>    Natty desktop. But the desktop appears, incorrectly, to have no
>    menus at all.
>
>    The "The Unity Menu" document says "Many modern applications are
>    being designed without substantial menus". The problem with that
>    approach was explained in my initial post introducing the menu bar:
>    it results in gratuitous inconsistency between applications.
>     But that is
>    beside the point. Hiding menus for windows that *do* rely on them
>    does nobody any good.
>
> 3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.
>
>    For example, when using Nautilus's menus, the menu bar reads
>        File Man File Edit View Go Bookmarks Help.
>
>    Similarly when using Terminal's menus, the menu bar reads
>        Termina File Edit View Search Terminal Help.
>
>    And when using Calculator's menus, the menu bar gets a stutter:
>        Calculat Calculator Mode Help.
>
> 4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
>    sometimes inconsistent too.
>
>    For example, when that Calculator window is open, its title bar says
>    "Calculator", and the menu bar pointlessly repeats "Calculator".
>    When a Banshee window is open, its title bar says "Banshee Media
>    Player", and the menu bar repeats "Banshee Media Player". When a
>    PolicyKit authentication alert is open, its title bar says
>    "Authenticate", and the menu bar repeats "Authenticate".
>
>    Other windows are inconsistent. For example, Firefox's title bar
>    says "Mozilla Firefox", but the menu bar disagrees, saying
>    "Firefox Web Browser". Shotwell's title bar says "Shotwell", but
>    the menu bar says "Shotwell Photo Manager". Most amusingly, if you
>    open a presentation in LibreOffice and then open an accompanying
>    spreadsheet, the title bar says "LibreOffice Calc" while the menu
>    bar says "LibreOffice Impress".
>
> There are two paragraphs in the "The Unity Menu" document that I agree
> with. One

Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[S. Christian Collins]

On 03/15/2011 09:47 AM, Peterson Silva wrote:
For the love of the goddess, please somebody say we'll have a new 
sound theme this time. Or that someone's working on it.


Having listened to all of the sound theme submissions 
 (and 
submitted one myself), I'm not sure that any one submission is a perfect 
sound set, and unfortunately, some are not very professional.  I think 
OisinLunny's startup sounds are absolutely wonderful, and really carry 
the affect of "light".  If the job were up to me, and I had to use only 
sounds that were part of the current submissions, I would do the following:


   * *Login screen:* oisinlu...@gmail.com/UbuntuDesktopLoginOisinLunny.wav
   * *User logs in:*
 oisinlu...@gmail.com/UbuntuDesktopReadyShortOisinLunny.wav
   * *User logs out:* oisinlu...@gmail.com/UbuntuEmailOisinLunny.wav
   * *Start new IM (receive):* S. Christian Collins/Ubuntu Light IM New
 Conversation 1.wav
   * *Start new IM (send):* S. Christian Collins/Ubuntu Light IM New
 Conversation 2.wav
   * *Continue IM (receive):* S. Christian Collins/Ubuntu Light IM
 Continued Conversation 3.wav
   * *Continue IM (send):* S. Christian Collins/Ubuntu Light IM
 Continued Conversation 4.wav
   * *Incoming E-mail:* S. Christian Collins/Ubuntu Light Desktop Ready
 1.wav
   * *Error:* S. Christian Collins/Ubuntu Light Error 1.wav
   * *Notification:* BioBiro/3 New Email.wav
   * *Device connected:* S. Christian Collins/notification-1.wav
   * *Device disconnected:* S. Christian Collins/notification-2.wav

I would then make the following modifications:

   * Trim the leading and trailing silence from some of the sounds
   * Transpose the sounds from the S. Christian Collins set into a
 different key and change to a brighter EQ to better blend with
 OisinLunny and BioBiro sounds.
   * Make sure the sounds are all at a similar volume.

Give me an hour and I can put this together.

-~Chris
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Thorsten Wilms]

On 03/15/2011 06:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:


I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space
for its menus is completely empty.



The design John cited is not the menu bar specification
, but a separate "The Unity Menu"
document that is new to me.



And here I thought you 2 would be on the same team.

That switching behavior only makes sense to me in the maximised window 
case. I guess it's then shoehorned unto the non-max window case for 
consistency. Consistency is great, but sometimes there maybe a benefit 
in breaking it. Though it might be a design "smell", if your underlying 
concept drives you into such cases.


If menus are disliked that much, I wonder where the alternatives are? 
Piling everything up in one mega-menu is only acceptable for seldom used 
functionality. Many applications have way to many commands to put them 
into a toolbar or to sprinkle the interface with them.


Even in an application like Rhinocerus (rhino3d), where all commands are 
available in commandline at the bottom of the window, the menus help by 
letting you explore what's there and in case where you don't remember 
enough of a command name even for autocomplete. Though in Emacs, I have 
been doing fine with no menu at all.


Anyway, if menus are bad, menus where you can't aim for their top level 
items directly are even worse.




I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
should be removed from Unity's menu bar. I'm reliably informed that this
would be extremely low risk, in that it would involve changing two lines
of code.


The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving the 
menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important that the 
menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming LTR reading 
direction). To guarantee that, without using an offset from the left 
that will always be too small or too large, the title would have to be 
right-aligned to the right side of the window or panel. But 
clipped/faded-out on the right, when necessary.



--
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Chris Coulson]

On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 17:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test Unity.
> 
> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
> over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
> or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space
> for its menus is completely empty. I reported a bug about this, but John
> Lea marked it as Invalid on the grounds that "this change request
> contradicts the design". He requested that I discuss it here.
> 
> The design John cited is not the menu bar specification
> , but a separate "The Unity Menu"
> document that is new to me.
> 
> 
> I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
> an application or window title.
> 
> 1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.
> 
> The "The Unity Menu" document says that "The top level of the menu
> rarely shows significant information (it is not an indicator) - it
> consists essentially of category headings, like 'File' and 'Edit'
> and 'View'. None of those add any relevant information to the task
> at hand, or wider awareness."
> 
> Whoever wrote that is mistaken. Every time the task at hand involves
> using a menu, it is necessary first to be aware of, and then to move
> the pointer to, the desired menu. That is much harder to do if the
> menu is invisible until just after you finish needing to know where
> it is. Whether the menus collectively are "an indicator" is
> irrelevant: the first item in the rationale, for what determines
> whether something appears in the menu bar, has always been "It's
> not whether it's a status indicator".
> 
> 
> 2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.
> 
> For example, last month Jack Wallen wrote for TechRepublic
> : "One of the
> most handy menu entries in GNOME (for me at least) is the Connect
> to Server entry in the Places menu. This allows the user to connect
> to nearly any type of server quickly and easily. The user can even
> connect to a Windows Share from here. In Unity - you won’t find
> that. In fact, you will be hard pressed to find any means to
> connect to a server in Ubuntu Unity."
> 
> At the time, I didn't understand how he could have had that problem.
> Now I do. The "Connect to Server" item, which is in the "Places"
> menu on the Ubuntu 10.10 desktop, is in the "File" menu on the
> Natty desktop. But the desktop appears, incorrectly, to have no
> menus at all.
> 
> The "The Unity Menu" document says "Many modern applications are
> being designed without substantial menus". The problem with that
> approach was explained in my initial post introducing the menu bar:
> it results in gratuitous inconsistency between applications.
>  But that is
> beside the point. Hiding menus for windows that *do* rely on them
> does nobody any good.
> 
> 3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.
> 
> For example, when using Nautilus's menus, the menu bar reads
> File Man File Edit View Go Bookmarks Help.
> 
> Similarly when using Terminal's menus, the menu bar reads
> Termina File Edit View Search Terminal Help.
> 
> And when using Calculator's menus, the menu bar gets a stutter:
> Calculat Calculator Mode Help.
> 
> 4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
> sometimes inconsistent too.
> 
> For example, when that Calculator window is open, its title bar says
> "Calculator", and the menu bar pointlessly repeats "Calculator".
> When a Banshee window is open, its title bar says "Banshee Media
> Player", and the menu bar repeats "Banshee Media Player". When a
> PolicyKit authentication alert is open, its title bar says
> "Authenticate", and the menu bar repeats "Authenticate".
> 
> Other windows are inconsistent. For example, Firefox's title bar
> says "Mozilla Firefox", but the menu bar disagrees, saying
> "Firefox Web Browser". Shotwell's title bar says "Shotwell", but
> the menu bar says "Shotwell Photo Manager". Most amusingly, if you
> open a presentation in LibreOffice and then open an accompanying
> spreadsheet, the title bar says "LibreOffice Calc" while the menu
> bar says "LibreOffice Impress".
> 
> There are two paragraphs in the "The Unity Menu" document that I agree
> with. One says: "The top edge 

Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Conscious User]

Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving
> the menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important
> that the menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming
> LTR reading direction). To guarantee that, without using an offset
> from the left that will always be too small or too large, the title
> would have to be right-aligned to the right side of the window or
> panel. But clipped/faded-out on the right, when necessary. 


And where would the window buttons go?

If this discussion ends up concluding that they are better on the
right, the universe will probably explode with irony.



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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme / icon set

[M. Adnan Quaium]

Hello Paul,

In responses to your question, well ... no I do not have any world class
contacts in the genres you mentioned. On the other hand, somehow I've some
Ubuntu newbies (some of them are converted to Ubuntu by me and some of get
acquainted with me after using Ubuntu), who think Ubuntu's default icon
theme is still 10 years old 'XPish'. And I get the same remark from anyone
who is using Vista/7. Occasionally, I need to use Windows 7 and MacOSX, and
Ubuntu's icon set looks really dull while using those.

I somehow solve this problem by using Faenza Icon themes. So when I install
Ubuntu in someone's computer, the first thing I do is to install Faenza
(even before installing restricted extras). I donot know whether the guys
behind Faenza are world class but they really did an amazing job.

I suggested the idea of new icon set, from the point of end user's point of
view (I am an end user too). End users do not acquaint with the
developers/designers. The acquaint with the OS they are using. They can only
make suggestion to the community for a betterment of their favorite OS. The
community makes the further decisions of approving or rejecting the
suggestion.

I am not aware of any project of changing the default icons. So I just made
that suggestion, to let the community know it would be a good idea to have a
new unique default icon set for Ubuntu. If there is such any project, then
it is a great news. If there is not any, the team can take the initiative or
can discuss on the fact that whether a new icon set is necessary or not.
It'll take time, I agree, but at some point we need to start about thinking
of that.


- Adnan


On 15 March 2011 18:51, Paul Sladen  wrote:

> Hello Peterson and Adnan,
>
> I suspect the answer to these are much along the same lines as
> something I gave on AskUbuntu recently, to a question about the fonts:
>
>  "Will there be a Ubuntu Serif font in the future?"
>
> http://askubuntu.com/questions/26104/will-there-be-a-ubuntu-serif-font-in-the-future
>
> The answer here is that it depends not only on time and enthusiasm
> but finding very skilled people and getting them involved---with their
> background knowledge and experience.  For doing a full Ubuntu Serif
> companion font expansion, I suggested that perhaps means:
>
>  1 Find a type designer who is interested
>  2 Work with them to make a beautiful, complementary and hinted expansion
>
> It'll take a while too; before you could even start such a process
> (which will take a *long* time) it would be necessary to understand
> the background.  What is it _for_?  Why would it be done/re-done?
>
> Lots of people can draw icons, or create sounds or make fonts; but
> will the results fit together?  Will they be beautiful as a whole? If
> we here working on Ayatana want to push the state of people's
> computering experiences forward then there's not much point making
> fonts, icons, sounds or backgrounds "for the sake of it".  They need
> to definitely improve on what is there already there and we need to be
> able to scientifically prove that that is the case.
>
> Once that research and development is done in Ayatana (which will
> benefit everyone), you can start to think about the Ubuntu case.
> The Ubuntu desktop and brand is a jigsaw of many parts.  Admittedly
> not all of those parts fit perfectly at the moment, but if you change
> one piece only; the piece next to it might not fit as well.
>
> If you want something to happen and care about it, the best approach
> is probably to find the people with the skills and get them interested
> in what Ubuntu is---what it's doing and how they can help make a
> difference to millions of people's computing lives everyday.  The
> sooner one can find the right people, the sooner your and other
> people's dreams can come true!
>
> You've each suggested icons and sounds.  Do you have any world-class
> contacts in those genres?  Contacts capable of /not/ just designing
> sounds or icons, but those who can create guides /for creating/
> icons or sounds and prove why the changes are an improvement over
> what's available!
>
>-Paul
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[M. Adnan Quaium]

Thanks Ingo, I did not aware of that.

On 15 March 2011 19:12, Ingo Gerth  wrote:

> A while ago I asked a question concerning the sound theme on askubuntu.
> Check it out:
> http://askubuntu.com/questions/21840/are-there-still-plans-for-a-new-sound-theme
> It
> appears that the design team is on it, although there has been no further
> news recently.
>
> About icons: Mark mentioned plenty of times that there will most likely be
> a new set for 12.04 LTS. Just be patient guys :).
>
> -- Ingo
>
>

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Carl Simpson]

The change that you propose might make it harder to see which application a
particular menu belongs to.  I think it's that (and the desire to hide a bit
of messy interface) that led to the current situation, although I've no
citation on it.

I think in having it always-menu, care would need to be taken to make sure
that it's obvious which window is focussed.  I know a lot of fuss has been
made about shadows to highlight the focussed window, but that's a pretty
weak visual cue which is vulnerable to being obscured.

Apple have that problem largely solved with the Application Menu or whatever
it's called (the one that uses the application's name, in which they shove
everything they can't think of a good place for. :/ )

Of course, the fact that they have had that consistently for some time
indeed has meant that people have deliberately not made their applications
have the same name as their first menu item.  Ubuntu couldn't do the same,
especially since most of the applications on a default Ubuntu install
weren't even designed for Ubuntu's interface, but indeed for Gnome's
(there's another lovely problem with the whole state of affairs as we have
it.)

In summary:  Showing only menus, how are you going to make sure people know
what the menus being shown are for?

2011/3/15 Conscious User 

>
>
> Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> > The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving
> > the menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important
> > that the menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming
> > LTR reading direction). To guarantee that, without using an offset
> > from the left that will always be too small or too large, the title
> > would have to be right-aligned to the right side of the window or
> > panel. But clipped/faded-out on the right, when necessary.
>
>
> And where would the window buttons go?
>
> If this discussion ends up concluding that they are better on the
> right, the universe will probably explode with irony.
>
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Saleel Velankar]

On Tuesday, March 15, 2011 5:34:52 PM Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
> should be removed from Unity's menu bar. 

Possibly. The titlebar is used to differentiate between two windows of the 
same app, or less used to differentiate between windows of different apps. By 
clicking the maximize button, the user is saying that I want all the available 
screen space to be dedicated to this window (note: its not this app) please 
see my tweak to thorwils idea.


On Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:28:59 PM Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> If menus are disliked that much, I wonder where the alternatives are?
> Piling everything up in one mega-menu is only acceptable for seldom used
> functionality. Many applications have way to many commands to put them
> into a toolbar or to sprinkle the interface with them.
In the perfect world, there would be button in the toolbar. when you click it 
will pop-up a box saying "what are you looking to do?" and search/display 
through the menu options based on what the user has typed ala GnomeDo/ 
Krunner.

> Though in Emacs, I have been doing fine with no menu at all.
Emacs is perfect for people with 32 fingers that love to memorize obscure 
codes 

> Anyway, if menus are bad, menus where you can't aim for their top level
> items directly are even worse.
Super Agreed. 
 
> The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving the
> menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important that the
> menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming LTR reading
> direction). To guarantee that, without using an offset from the left
> that will always be too small or too large, the title would have to be
> right-aligned to the right side of the window or panel. But
> clipped/faded-out on the right, when necessary.

Here is an idea, make it time based. it being 'giving the preference to'. If I 
am watching a youtube video inside a maximized Firefox windows, and my mouse 
activity is low, then the title should be given the preference. If my 
mouse/keyboard activity picks up then the menu should be given the preference. 
I assume this is technically feasible.

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Saleel Velankar]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:
>
> The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving the menu
> priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important that the menu
> always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming LTR reading
> direction). To guarantee that, without using an offset from the left that
> will always be too small or too large, the title would have to be
> right-aligned to the right side of the window or panel. But
> clipped/faded-out on the right, when necessary.


Sorry about the multiple replies, but here is my idea:
Here is an idea, make it time based. it being 'giving the preference to'. If
I
am watching a youtube video inside a maximized firefox windows, and my mouse
activity is low, then the title should be given the preference. If my
mouse/keyboard activity picks up then the menu should be given the
preference.
I assume this is technically feasible.


-- 
Saleel
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Vishnoo]

On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 15:51 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
> 
> Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> > The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving
> > the menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important
> > that the menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming
> > LTR reading direction). To guarantee that, without using an offset
> > from the left that will always be too small or too large, the title
> > would have to be right-aligned to the right side of the window or
> > panel. But clipped/faded-out on the right, when necessary. 
> 
> 
> And where would the window buttons go?
> 
> If this discussion ends up concluding that they are better on the
> right, the universe will probably explode with irony.
> 

I dont think we should decide _not_ to do the right thing just for the
sake of irony..  ;-)

Sane design trumps irony any day.. ;p

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[S. Christian Collins]

On 03/15/2011 01:24 PM, S. Christian Collins wrote:
Having listened to all of the sound theme submissions 
 (and 
submitted one myself), I'm not sure that any one submission is a 
perfect sound set, and unfortunately, some are not very professional.  
I think OisinLunny's startup sounds are absolutely wonderful, and 
really carry the affect of "light".  If the job were up to me, and I 
had to use only sounds that were part of the current submissions, I 
would do the following:

...
Give me an hour and I can put this together.

Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/?mnnlem3iio715ok

Based on the works of multiple submissions, this sound theme is truly a 
community effort, which is why I gave it the name "CommUnity".  Of 
course, the capitalized "Unity" references the new Ubuntu desktop 
interface by the same name :)


What do you guys think?  Is this not better than the current Ubuntu 
soundset?

-~Chris
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme

[Marco Biscaro]

I think that these sounds are better than the default Ubuntu's theme.
Some comments:

1. At moment, they are consistent. We must ensure that the theme will
keep consistent, as long as new sounds are added.

2. The sounds are not normalized. Imagine: the user logs in and the
login sound is too loud. He decreases the system's sound and opens the
instant messenger. Now, he can't hear the notification sounds.

3. The logout sound is much long. When a user click on 'Log out', he
wants that this happens instantly (and not wait 7 seconds until the
sound stops playing).

4. The suggested name is great! CommUnity +1.

On Ter, 2011-03-15 at 15:17 -0500, S. Christian Collins wrote:
> On 03/15/2011 01:24 PM, S. Christian Collins wrote: 
> > Having listened to all of the sound theme submissions (and submitted
> > one myself), I'm not sure that any one submission is a perfect sound
> > set, and unfortunately, some are not very professional.  I think
> > OisinLunny's startup sounds are absolutely wonderful, and really
> > carry the affect of "light".  If the job were up to me, and I had to
> > use only sounds that were part of the current submissions, I would
> > do the following:
> > ...
> > Give me an hour and I can put this together.
> Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/?mnnlem3iio715ok
> 
> Based on the works of multiple submissions, this sound theme is truly
> a community effort, which is why I gave it the name "CommUnity".  Of
> course, the capitalized "Unity" references the new Ubuntu desktop
> interface by the same name :)
> 
> What do you guys think?  Is this not better than the current Ubuntu
> soundset?
> -~Chris
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[Ayatana] how could we switch better between windows?

[David]

Hello,
i am currently trying to figure out a nice method to switch between windows.
At the moment i have this:
http://unity.exemo.net/7/
Click on firefox to see it in action.
I already like this one.
But what could we do when:
 - there is 1 window open (okay probably switching to it)
 - there are only 2 windows open?
 - there are 10 windows open (or even 20)
Do you have any ideas?

Another problem could be that an application don't set his title very good.
(just an example) gedit set his title to "some unnamed document 1",
we have 4 new documents open.
when we want to switch we get:
some unnamed doc...
some unnamed doc...
some unnamed doc...
some unnamed doc...
Would it be technically possible to get in that case something like:
some unnamed ... 1
some unnamed ... 2
some unnamed ... 3
some unnamed ... 4

What do you think?
David Reichling

ps: now that natty comes closer i can't wait for Oneiric Ocelot ;-)
ps2: unity is really awesome. congratulations to everyone involved

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Luke Benstead]

On 15 March 2011 20:13, Vishnoo  wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 15:51 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
>>
>> Thorsten Wilms wrote:
>> > The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving
>> > the menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important
>> > that the menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming
>> > LTR reading direction). To guarantee that, without using an offset
>> > from the left that will always be too small or too large, the title
>> > would have to be right-aligned to the right side of the window or
>> > panel. But clipped/faded-out on the right, when necessary.
>>
>>
>> And where would the window buttons go?
>>
>> If this discussion ends up concluding that they are better on the
>> right, the universe will probably explode with irony.
>>
>
> I dont think we should decide _not_ to do the right thing just for the
> sake of irony..  ;-)
>
> Sane design trumps irony any day.. ;p
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Vish


Erm, I hate to point out the obvious, but why don't we just put the
menu back in the windows and abandon appmenu as a failed experiment?
Keep the title and window controls in the panel for maximized windows
only (at least just for Natty).

I can already imagine the replies to this email, so let me save you
guys the trouble:

1. Someone will bring up Fitt's Law. Yes I know what it is. No, I
don't think it should be used as an overriding reason to squash,
overlap, and generally complicate a UI and shove it into an edge. I
especially don't see why Fitt's law is so important for menu bars,
when users get on perfectly fine with buttons, sliders, window resize
grips and icons, and well, everything else.

2. Someone will likely bring up the space saving of the global menu.
Firstly, the global menu only saves vertical space on a maximized
window, on non-maximized windows they only save on "chrome". By
keeping the title in the panel for maximized windows, we are still
saving 22px on Gnome 2, with the removal of the bottom panel that
brings it up to 44px. It's about finding a balance of space saving vs
usability and I really think we have shot past that balance point with
the global menu.

So, the question again raised is why exactly are we using a global menu?

I know I've brought it up before, but alongside the issues we are
having fitting it into the panel with the title, it also brings issues
with dual monitors, large resolutions and focus-follows-mouse. It
doesn't fit all use cases.

I think we should revert the global menu for Natty, and spend the next
6 months innovating on the menu bar, finding a replacement that
doesn't have the chrome but is easy to use. Firefox and Chrome have
come up with their replacements and Elementary are removing it
altogether in their apps. Now we have a dbus API for exporting the
menus maybe there is another, better, more compact, way to display
them to the user?

The only other suggestion I can come up with is to make the title a
button that displays the menu bar as drop down menu (Firefox style).

Luke.

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Re: [Ayatana] how could we switch better between windows?

[M. Adnan Quaium]

On 15 March 2011 22:34, David  wrote:

> Hello,
> i am currently trying to figure out a nice method to switch between
> windows.
> At the moment i have this:
> http://unity.exemo.net/7/
> Click on firefox to see it in action.
> I already like this one.
> But what could we do when:
>  - there is 1 window open (okay probably switching to it)
>  - there are only 2 windows open?
>  - there are 10 windows open (or even 20)
> Do you have any ideas?
>


For convenience I am giving the sub dash a name - "Display Dash". Well... I
think -

- In case of one window, you do not need this Display Dash.
- In case of two windows, just display the names just like current one. In
the list there will be only 2 names. Instead of starting the list from the
top, you can start it from the center of the left side. (like this
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/8283/screenshotm.png)
- In case of 10 windows, just put a scrollbar in the right side to the list,
so that all windows can be scrolled.

The design is very good. I think the website address can be removed from the
list, only favicon and site page title is better. Also can you please try
with a thinner border for the Display Dash. I think the thinner border will
make it better.




>
> Another problem could be that an application don't set his title very good.
> (just an example) gedit set his title to "some unnamed document 1",
> we have 4 new documents open.
> when we want to switch we get:
> some unnamed doc...
> some unnamed doc...
> some unnamed doc...
> some unnamed doc...
> Would it be technically possible to get in that case something like:
> some unnamed ... 1
> some unnamed ... 2
> some unnamed ... 3
> some unnamed ... 4
>
> May be possible but why do we need that? You can do one thing though.
Several windows from same program can be given a number in front of it. In
your case:
(1) some unnamed doc...
(2) some unnamed doc...
(3) some unnamed doc...
(4) some unnamed doc...
But I do not see any need of this thing.


-- 
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Mitja Pagon]

I've raised this issue before in various places, but I never got any response, 
so I'm really, positively surprised to see the same issues raised by someone 
from Canonical. 

Why not just keep the window title on the window, it's not really wasting that 
much screen space. This "space efficiency" as a design goal is being taken to 
far. Integrating window controls and title into the panel gains a bit of space, 
but is introduces some issues, most of which you listed. 

Keeping the application name in the global menu is important, as it a visual 
clue as to which application's menus are displayed. The inconsistencies in 
application naming can be filed as bugs and fixed, as names are read from 
desktop files. If an application has no menu, no name would need to be 
displayed. 

As for naming of entries in application menus, that sadly can't be easily 
resolved, as it's mostly up to application developers to sort out. 

Cheers, 
Mitja 



- Original Message - 
From: "Matthew Paul Thomas"  
To: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:34:52 PM 
Subject: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity 

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- 
Hash: SHA1 

After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in 
installing Natty to test Unity. 

I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you 
mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse 
over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application 
or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space 
for its menus is completely empty. I reported a bug about this, but John 
Lea marked it as Invalid on the grounds that "this change request 
contradicts the design". He requested that I discuss it here. 

The design John cited is not the menu bar specification 
, but a separate "The Unity Menu" 
document that is new to me. 
 

I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with 
an application or window title. 

1. Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use. 

The "The Unity Menu" document says that "The top level of the menu 
rarely shows significant information (it is not an indicator) - it 
consists essentially of category headings, like 'File' and 'Edit' 
and 'View'. None of those add any relevant information to the task 
at hand, or wider awareness." 

Whoever wrote that is mistaken. Every time the task at hand involves 
using a menu, it is necessary first to be aware of, and then to move 
the pointer to, the desired menu. That is much harder to do if the 
menu is invisible until just after you finish needing to know where 
it is. Whether the menus collectively are "an indicator" is 
irrelevant: the first item in the rationale, for what determines 
whether something appears in the menu bar, has always been "It's 
not whether it's a status indicator". 

 

2. It makes some functions effectively invisible. 

For example, last month Jack Wallen wrote for TechRepublic 
: "One of the 
most handy menu entries in GNOME (for me at least) is the Connect 
to Server entry in the Places menu. This allows the user to connect 
to nearly any type of server quickly and easily. The user can even 
connect to a Windows Share from here. In Unity - you won’t find 
that. In fact, you will be hard pressed to find any means to 
connect to a server in Ubuntu Unity." 

At the time, I didn't understand how he could have had that problem. 
Now I do. The "Connect to Server" item, which is in the "Places" 
menu on the Ubuntu 10.10 desktop, is in the "File" menu on the 
Natty desktop. But the desktop appears, incorrectly, to have no 
menus at all. 

The "The Unity Menu" document says "Many modern applications are 
being designed without substantial menus". The problem with that 
approach was explained in my initial post introducing the menu bar: 
it results in gratuitous inconsistency between applications. 
 But that is 
beside the point. Hiding menus for windows that *do* rely on them 
does nobody any good. 

3. The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear. 

For example, when using Nautilus's menus, the menu bar reads 
File Man File Edit View Go Bookmarks Help. 

Similarly when using Terminal's menus, the menu bar reads 
Termina File Edit View Search Terminal Help. 

And when using Calculator's menus, the menu bar gets a stutter: 
Calculat Calculator Mode Help. 

4. The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and 
sometimes inconsistent too. 

For example, when that Calculator window is open, its title bar says 
"Calculator", and the menu bar pointlessly repeats "Calculator". 
When a Banshee window is ope

Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Remco]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 23:29, Mitja Pagon  wrote:
> I've raised this issue before in various places, but I never got any
> response, so I'm really, positively surprised to see the same issues raised
> by someone from Canonical.

I also raised this issue in a bug report[1], and was informed that it
would be discussed by 'design'. The bug was later closed, with the
elaboration that "we're now committed to this course for Natty".

The thing I find jarring is that we have this mysterious design team
that basically discusses things behind our backs here at Ayatana. I
understand that a small team with face-to-face meetings can be
beneficial to design, but a problem lies in communication and
collaboration between the team and Ayatana. I have no idea how this
secret discussion lead to the closure of my bug.

-- 
Remco

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/717450

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Dylan McCall]

> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test Unity.
>
> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
> over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
> or window title. And for the desktop, until you mouse over it, the space
> for its menus is completely empty. I reported a bug about this, but John
> Lea marked it as Invalid on the grounds that "this change request
> contradicts the design". He requested that I discuss it here.
>
> […]
>
> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
> should be removed from Unity's menu bar. I'm reliably informed that this
> would be extremely low risk, in that it would involve changing two lines
> of code.
>
> - --
> mpt

Today I have been working on my fix for bug #716177:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/716177
Right now, the panel acts like the titlebar for the current maximized
window, but only if it's in focus. That leaves a big hole where a
maximized window is visible and it isn't in focus, but the top panel
still looks like it should correspond to that window. (The tldr
version: try using GIMP, maximized, without frowning). My patch makes
the top panel's draggable area relate to the front-most maximized
window regardless of who is in focus.

Anyway, I bumped into a design question that relates to this! The
draggable titlebar proxy works, and I had the code lined up to fix the
button proxy, but fixing that would totally break the application
title for an unmaximized window. So, the inconsistency mpt describes
hits us in another place: when somebody maximizes a window, its title
bar disappears and is replaced by a pretend title bar that doesn't
look or feel like an ordinary title bar. We do fairly well making it
work, and my patch brings that a little closer, _except for the
buttons_ :)

Dylan

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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Conscious User]

Remco wrote:
> The thing I find jarring is that we have this mysterious design
> team that basically discusses things behind our backs here at
> Ayatana. I understand that a small team with face-to-face
> meetings can be beneficial to design, but a problem lies in
> communication and collaboration between the team and Ayatana.


Yeah, the current situation is... weird, to say the least. I've
always heard rumors that the design team worked far from the rest,
but at the same time always felt comforted by the fact that at
least *someone* from the team (Matthew and, before, David Siegel)
was active here. Apparently, that doesn't mean much.

I know that different people in the design team probably work in
different things, and I know that it's not the first time
Ubuntu has a design change not approved by all members of the
team (ex: IIRC, Matthew didn't agree with music icons in the
Sound Menu instead of specific app icons), but to see such a
miscommunication in such a prominent part of Unity is a little
bit... shocking.



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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[appi2...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
> an application or window title.
>
> 1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.
>

> 2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.
>

The above two problems are important to fix.


> 3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.
>

#3 is not that big of a problem - we should avoid it when we can, but if its
necessary, its better to have an eyesore than a interaction problem.

>
> 4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
>sometimes inconsistent too.
>

Although this is a problem, a title is necessary for maximized windows, so
it has to be shown for them.

I proposed a solution to this earlier on this list, but unfortunately, it
got no replies. However, I still believe that it can solve the problems
brought up here.

My basic idea is: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04555.html

However, I have a change: The Application Title should only be shown for
maximized windows, where it is necessary. Otherwise, only the menu should be
visible.
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Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity

[Marc Lajoie]

I, for one, love the integration of the menu and titlebars into the panel in
Natty. The decluttering of the workspace, or the "chromifization" (as in
Google Chrome, which started the wonderful trend of minimal interfaces and
the hiding of visual clutter) of Ubuntu is the main reason I am looking
forward to Natty.
So while I understand the concerns about the hidden menu, I agree with the
logic of not treating the menu as an indicator, and hiding it up in the
panel. Yes, there are a couple of small problems with this approach (mostly
discoverability for new users, people using Natty for the very first time),
but my opinion is the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
My vote, for what it's worth, is to keep it the way it is!
That said, I would not oppose having the menu in the panel being shown by
default, instead of the title, in the case of non-maximized windows, with
the title/menu overlap occurring only for maximized windows.

Marc Lajoie


On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:59 AM, appi2...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas 
> wrote:
>
>> I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
>> an application or window title.
>>
>> 1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.
>>
>
>> 2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.
>>
>
> The above two problems are important to fix.
>
>
>> 3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.
>>
>
> #3 is not that big of a problem - we should avoid it when we can, but if
> its necessary, its better to have an eyesore than a interaction problem.
>
>>
>> 4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
>>sometimes inconsistent too.
>>
>
> Although this is a problem, a title is necessary for maximized windows, so
> it has to be shown for them.
>
> I proposed a solution to this earlier on this list, but unfortunately, it
> got no replies. However, I still believe that it can solve the problems
> brought up here.
>
> My basic idea is: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04555.html
>
> However, I have a change: The Application Title should only be shown for
> maximized windows, where it is necessary. Otherwise, only the menu should be
> visible.
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme / icon set

[Peterson Silva]

Paul,

Thanks for the answer! When it comes to the Ubuntu sound theme, I can only
say that I completely agree with you: we ought to have a sound theme that
integrates well. That's a long term initiative, yes.

On the other hand, I have to say that we need to think short term too. Of
course creating a sound theme takes time, but unless you're deaf you're
going to be very unpleased by the current experience. The sounds are awfully
unrelated to the whole experience. Ask anyone. Seriously.

So if Ayatana is (with good reasons to be) not considering something new for
this cycle, I think *not* having the current sound theme on by default (not
having a sound theme at all) would already be of benefit to the feel of...
the whole system.

*Peterson*
*http://petercast.net*



On 15 March 2011 14:51, Paul Sladen  wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Mar 2011, M. Adnan Quaium wrote:
> > On 15 March 2011 15:47, Peterson Silva  wrote:
> > > have a new sound theme this time.
> > +1 ... icon set
>
> Hello Peterson and Adnan,
>
> I suspect the answer to these are much along the same lines as
> something I gave on AskUbuntu recently, to a question about the fonts:
>
>  "Will there be a Ubuntu Serif font in the future?"
>
> http://askubuntu.com/questions/26104/will-there-be-a-ubuntu-serif-font-in-the-future
>
> The answer here is that it depends not only on time and enthusiasm
> but finding very skilled people and getting them involved---with their
> background knowledge and experience.  For doing a full Ubuntu Serif
> companion font expansion, I suggested that perhaps means:
>
>  1 Find a type designer who is interested
>  2 Work with them to make a beautiful, complementary and hinted expansion
>
> It'll take a while too; before you could even start such a process
> (which will take a *long* time) it would be necessary to understand
> the background.  What is it _for_?  Why would it be done/re-done?
>
> Lots of people can draw icons, or create sounds or make fonts; but
> will the results fit together?  Will they be beautiful as a whole? If
> we here working on Ayatana want to push the state of people's
> computering experiences forward then there's not much point making
> fonts, icons, sounds or backgrounds "for the sake of it".  They need
> to definitely improve on what is there already there and we need to be
> able to scientifically prove that that is the case.
>
> Once that research and development is done in Ayatana (which will
> benefit everyone), you can start to think about the Ubuntu case.
> The Ubuntu desktop and brand is a jigsaw of many parts.  Admittedly
> not all of those parts fit perfectly at the moment, but if you change
> one piece only; the piece next to it might not fit as well.
>
> If you want something to happen and care about it, the best approach
> is probably to find the people with the skills and get them interested
> in what Ubuntu is---what it's doing and how they can help make a
> difference to millions of people's computing lives everyday.  The
> sooner one can find the right people, the sooner your and other
> people's dreams can come true!
>
> You've each suggested icons and sounds.  Do you have any world-class
> contacts in those genres?  Contacts capable of /not/ just designing
> sounds or icons, but those who can create guides /for creating/
> icons or sounds and prove why the changes are an improvement over
> what's available!
>
>-Paul
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound theme / icon set

[IKT]

Cheers, you are 100% right, they look really professional.

In my opinion they are what the tango icon theme *should *be like.

http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=128143&file1=128143-1.png&file2=&file3=&name=Faenza


On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:25 AM, M. Adnan Quaium
wrote:

> I somehow solve this problem by using Faenza Icon themes. So when I install
> Ubuntu in someone's computer, the first thing I do is to install Faenza
> (even before installing restricted extras). I donot know whether the guys
> behind Faenza are world class but they really did an amazing job.
>
>
> On 15 March 2011 18:51, Paul Sladen  wrote:
>
>> Hello Peterson and Adnan,
>>
>> I suspect the answer to these are much along the same lines as
>> something I gave on AskUbuntu recently, to a question about the fonts:
>>
>>  "Will there be a Ubuntu Serif font in the future?"
>>
>> http://askubuntu.com/questions/26104/will-there-be-a-ubuntu-serif-font-in-the-future
>>
>> The answer here is that it depends not only on time and enthusiasm
>> but finding very skilled people and getting them involved---with their
>> background knowledge and experience.  For doing a full Ubuntu Serif
>> companion font expansion, I suggested that perhaps means:
>>
>>  1 Find a type designer who is interested
>>  2 Work with them to make a beautiful, complementary and hinted expansion
>>
>> It'll take a while too; before you could even start such a process
>> (which will take a *long* time) it would be necessary to understand
>> the background.  What is it _for_?  Why would it be done/re-done?
>>
>> Lots of people can draw icons, or create sounds or make fonts; but
>> will the results fit together?  Will they be beautiful as a whole? If
>> we here working on Ayatana want to push the state of people's
>> computering experiences forward then there's not much point making
>> fonts, icons, sounds or backgrounds "for the sake of it".  They need
>> to definitely improve on what is there already there and we need to be
>> able to scientifically prove that that is the case.
>>
>> Once that research and development is done in Ayatana (which will
>> benefit everyone), you can start to think about the Ubuntu case.
>> The Ubuntu desktop and brand is a jigsaw of many parts.  Admittedly
>> not all of those parts fit perfectly at the moment, but if you change
>> one piece only; the piece next to it might not fit as well.
>>
>> If you want something to happen and care about it, the best approach
>> is probably to find the people with the skills and get them interested
>> in what Ubuntu is---what it's doing and how they can help make a
>> difference to millions of people's computing lives everyday.  The
>> sooner one can find the right people, the sooner your and other
>> people's dreams can come true!
>>
>> You've each suggested icons and sounds.  Do you have any world-class
>> contacts in those genres?  Contacts capable of /not/ just designing
>> sounds or icons, but those who can create guides /for creating/
>> icons or sounds and prove why the changes are an improvement over
>> what's available!
>>
>>-Paul
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> M. Adnan Quaium
>
> URL: http://adnan.quaium.com
>
>
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>
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Re: [Ayatana] how could we switch better between windows?

[IKT]

Why do we need to have a title for multiple windows of the same program?

We don't tab through each tab window in firefox, so why do it for
libreoffice? In fact isn't this a design flaw of libreoffice?

All libreoffice needs to do is add a tab like toolbar to it with the
filename in the title of the tab and problem solved.

- ikt


On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:04 AM, David wrote:

>
> Another problem could be that an application don't set his title very good.
>
>
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