Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Evolution indicator

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

>
> *Expéditeur:* Jeremy Nickurak < jer...@nickurak.ca>
>
> *Date:* 17 janvier 2011 18:38:01 HNE
>
> *Destinataire:* Jean Levasseur < 
> levasseur.j...@gmail.com>
>
> *Objet:* *Rép : [Ayatana] Evolution indicator*
>
> "evolution-alarm-notify", however, is a service. Maybe we need an
> evolution-mail-notify service to fill the same area? Might be more work to
> implement it that way however. How does evolution-data-server fit into this?
> Is there already most of the code to do this as a "service" that sits in the
> background and lacks the overhead of a full UI?
>
>
there's gmail-notify, it has been around for a while and is supported by the
MeMenu.

* UMA and setting up account details should be seperated entities, imo.

You set up your account details to the system, Ubuntu. About Me is perhaps
going to be abolished, or not, regardless, it is a personal identity form
which will be the central place to enter your account details for social
networking sites, popular chat services and email accounts.

Then, there should be a system agent able to use that data to log in to the
server and fetch information about new incoming messages, perhaps get their
headers, so that would preferrably be an imap client, but it may be
pop-enabled also, either way is possible.

so, seen from the beginners mind, i turn on my computer for the first time
with vanilla Ubuntu Unity installed on it.
The firstrun wizard asks me to enter some information about who i am, so
that it can configure this machine to receive my digital identity.
I enter my First Name and my Last Name, my emailaddress e.g. f...@bar.tld . A
throbber appears and gives me the feeling that the wizard is acting on that
personal information i just contributed. Now out of the throbber another
question appears: "would you like to be notified about new emails?", this
with a cropped screencast-like animation that demoes Ubuntu's default email
notification method (Messaging Menu indicators & Notify OSD).

{
Problem:
how does the system know that imap.bar.tld is the correct server and that
f...@bar.tld is the correct username?
how will it determine the correct password to send to login to the email
server?
- These problems have been solved and the wheel around them has been
reinvented so many times, that they don't deserve our attention at this
point.
let me yet interject, that a good heuristic (and if that fails: a brief
dialog) should ensure that all necessary information is in place to fetch
email information.
}

now i can say "yes" to email notification in the manner advertised to me by
the cropped screencast-like animation of Messaging Indicators / Notify OSD
in action.

The wizard now asks me about my chat account and offers the 5 most popular
services, plus a button for "other".
e.g. "would you like to see  new chat messages, too?", this with another
cropped screencast-like animation of the Messaging Indicators / Notify OSD
in respective action.
( This wheel was reinvented a zillion times with each chat app that has come
and gone, code is lying around, or is not difficult to conceive due to this
fact )
I like the animation, it shows me a very elegant notification process, just
like in those pretty Ubuntu Natty+1 release notes i saw on the website.
I say Yes and the system indicates activity, as it fetches my contact list
from the entered services in the background already.
In the meantime, something like a business card is evolving, due to the
information i am contributing. My generic avatar-placeholder is filled with
the avatar that is stored on the server of chat account, who'se details i
recently contributed in about the second dialog i was presented with upon
firstrun.

So there's my business card, a metaphor for my identity represented in the
digital world, evolving into a complete personal information set, free for
me to disclose to the world at my convenience.

Now i hope i'm not "online" marked as "available" by default already,
because i surely want to know and decide myself, when i become "visible", so
there is a checkbox named "invisible", which is already checked (doesn't
work for facebook chat). fortunately, at the end of my configuration fun,
there's a final question:

"Do you want to go online?"

I check the aggregated virtual business card on my virtual workspace, see
that the information was received correctly, no typos, those accounts i want
enabled when i go on are ticked, so i say "Yes" again.. ..and the messaging
menu is populated.



Personally, i don't know to what extent it is already important to include
Social Networking services here, such as identi.ca or facebook. Even twitter
might be too much for starters.
That would have to be subject to user testing.
This is a vision some of us have already begun to describe, and i hope this
little Userland story helps people who didn't know about it see it, too.
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Uns

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 18:06, Conscious User  wrote:

>
>
> > I'm particularly interested in this issue. I like the show on
> > hover,
> > but how is it going to be addressed in touch devices?
> >
> > eye-tracking?
>
>
> I'm not talking about the future. I'm asking how the designers are
> handling this issue *now*, for Natty.
>

Nielsen introduced the concept 17 years ago already, but i guess i was still
being humorous with a taste of "direction".
It is futile to attempt to solve a problem that does not yet exist.
The common desktop is pointer-based, the AppMenu's pupose is a transitional
one, we don't need a GlobalMenu or AppMenu where we are going, that's why my
future talk.
Of course, if you think a 24px bar is a useful UI in a touch-oriented
environment, i will not agree.
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:33, Owais Lone  wrote:

> Having a reduced set of predetermined colours would greatly increase
> usability IMO if used in a meaningful way.
>

+1


> For example,
>
> White --> Normal/Not Running
>

white is default at the moment, that's Ambiance, so agreed.


> Yellow --> Minimized
>

what for?


> Green --> Running
>

That's notification color in Ambiance at the moment.


> Red --> Needs Input|Attention / Notification
>

Red is kinda strong, it means "Reboot Required" at the moment.
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[Conscious User]

> It is futile to attempt to solve a problem that does not yet exist.

What are you talking about? Ubuntu is being installed in touch
devices as we speak:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/11/augen-improves-gentouch-78-teases-lenovo-u1-hybrid-competitor/
http://www.gizchina.com/2010/12/28/ubuntu-tablet-details-surface/

Not to mention that Unity is supposed to be touch-friendly by design:

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/383
  
> Of course, if you think a 24px bar is a useful UI in a touch-oriented 
> environment, i will not agree.

I don't, and that's another point against Unity in its current form for
touch devices.

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Deprecation of the "Window" Metaphor

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 11:56, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:

> On Sun, 2011-01-02 at 06:55 +0100, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
> > now here's a list of example solutions how one can design something
> > without
> > "window" in mind:
> > * OLPC's Sugar: http://www.collabora.co.uk/services/case-studies/olpc
> > * Ubuntu's: http://blog.canonical.com/?p=379
> > * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxpzNGppcbs ( XMONAD Demo on Compiz
> > 0.9 )
>
> You keep talking about the window metaphor as if it was clearly defined.
> At the core a window is a usually rectangular area that tends to have a
> frame, size and position handled by a system component and a content
> area controlled by an application.
>
> The term "window" quite likely came to be because you have a view onto
> something.
>
> Disallowing overlapping to have only full-screen or tiling instead thus
> sounds like a weak reason to call them something else.
>

This is not about replacing the "window" metaphor with another term. It is
about leaving the predominating WIMP paradigm behind us eventually.

"window" is simply a staller, it is 2d, it is flat, it is
contraint-per-definition, not a metaphor that inspires me to think of
content, an object relatiionship or network, dynamic repositioning of
objects or conditional nesting of objects and so on and so forth.
"Window" at best reminds me of the needs of an accountant, who has a
relatively flat and static document before him, someone who is neither
interested in compositing managers or semantic scaling.

> I don't think that windows as they are getting in our way at all, i
> > just think we have already chosen to go along another path, as above
> > design documents and demos sufficiently indicate.
>
> Here, first you state there is no motivation to change.
>

Oh yes there is, for decades now!


> Then you talk about a "we" that doesn't exist.
>
Then you claim a decision has been made and a path has been stepped on,
> but both is far from being clear.
>

To be clearer, this is about moving on, thinking beyond 2d windowing,
building a greater paradigm that will hopefully greatly outlive the limited
experience we have been presented with since the early seventies [1].
Compiz offers much of the raw functionality needed for the next upcoming
steps into the great beyond ;)
This is why i think it is time to address the topic in such an open fashion
now. Compiz is not called a "window manager", it is a compositing manager.
Since compiz is the soil in which Ubuntu's Unity UI is growing, i think it
is time to get out of the all-infectuous "Window" metaphor a bit, time to
clear our minds of it as good as we can, because it has no proper meaning
outside the disturbing toolkit implementation of it, and it is a major
staller when it comes to innovating UIs.

I might be pedantic, but a little more intellectual discipline would
> really help.
>

Indeed, a valid point..

The window metaphor was first taken to market by Apple in 1984, when the Mac
was made popular. Yes, back then it was great in order to have *some* form
of implementation for the appliances of the time. Those were accounting,
lists, tables and presenting flat documents on a flat screen.

Today, the concept doesn't fit well anymore as a dominating element e.g.
within the "object-oriented interface" [2] proposed by Jakob Nielsen.
The whole point about "deprecating" the usage of this early and even so
blurry HCI metaphor now is that Nielsen wrote his text more than 17 years
ago, already reminding "us" of the real purpose and potential of the
interface, which is being forgotten quite often in "window" and "window
management" focused design discussions even today.

We no longer use computers for "flat" experience, so windows are extremely
inconvenient in our times, since they always guide design into the 2d
direction, whilst our applications are far beyond that for years already
now.


> Lke usual, this should be about why to change something, what to change
> and how.
>

I think this should be about change, yes, but discussion is not at all
harmful, since many of "us", as yourself, would like to object to the very
notion of letting go of this ancient metaphor for the better parts of our
time. And of course, the "how" is meant to be a collaborative achievement, i
could lay it all out by myself, but it wouldn't be 1% as good as what we can
elaborate, discuss and specify together, if "we" want to.

The advantage of using as much of the screen as possible for a single
> application is obvious, at least to anyone who ever worked with a
> graphics application.
>

exactly, that's why words such as "workspace" or "space" or "screen" are
more valuable metaphors than "window", and the metaphor "window" tends to
have a certain magnetism, which is unrelated to its disputable value. The
magnetism of the metaphor "window" is more related to how widespread it got
due to short-sighted revenue oriented visions of those stakeholders who made
it popular, "window" is otherwise not popula

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:26, Conscious User  wrote:

>
> > It is futile to attempt to solve a problem that does not yet exist.
>
> What are you talking about? Ubuntu is being installed in touch
> devices as we speak:
>
>
> http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/11/augen-improves-gentouch-78-teases-lenovo-u1-hybrid-competitor/
> http://www.gizchina.com/2010/12/28/ubuntu-tablet-details-surface/
>
> Not to mention that Unity is supposed to be touch-friendly by design:
>
> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/383
>
> > Of course, if you think a 24px bar is a useful UI in a touch-oriented
> environment, i will not agree.
>
> I don't, and that's another point against Unity in its current form for
> touch devices.


Ah ok i get you now.
So how about unity launcher, NO appmenu, wingpanel 48px transparent and
transparent titlebars with large "hide" button and large "float" button?
"float" button would scale down the window aka document and make it
transparent just like when i'm moving windows in compiz in current natty.
also.. i suggest strongly to reduce the opacity by at least another 10% by
default..
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Deprecation of the "Window" Metaphor

[Thorsten Wilms]

Dear Frederik,

it almost seems like you want an inspiring term instead of the boring
"windows", independent of actual problems or solutions. How about
"crystal sphere views unto unicorn-filled landscapes"?

As long as we mainly use flat, 2d screens and usually work with
documents of rather flat content, I'm pretty sure there will always be
regions on screen that may represent content and/or tools to work with
that content. So far "windows" seems be at least as good a term as any
other you didn't come up with, and it happens to be well established.

I only skimmed most of what you wrote. I tend to delete most of your
mails without reading, happen to know that I'm not alone with that and
regret it every time I don't.

In this case, I tried to explain the problem with your approach, in hope
you might find a little more focus. Instead, it's like I wrote in a
foreign language and you returned to your irritating habit to reply to
old mails, writing too long mails that offer nothing I could work with.

I'm aware this is not exactly constructive. But it looks to me like the
whole Ayatana list isn't actually constructive. What has been achieved
so far?

Something in closing, to think about. There are several variations and
it's attributed to varying people, but:
"I would have written a shorter letter but didn't have time."


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/


___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[Conscious User]

I'm not really interested in brainstorming right now. Natty is going to be 
released in three
months and I'm interested in knowing which ideas the official design team 
*already have*
to address the hover issue, or why they don't consider it an issue.




 
-Original Message-
From: frederik.nnaji 
To: Conscious User 
Cc: ayatana 
Sent: Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:39 am
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a 
touch OS


On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:26, Conscious User  wrote:


> It is futile to attempt to solve a problem that does not yet exist.


What are you talking about? Ubuntu is being installed in touch
devices as we speak:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/11/augen-improves-gentouch-78-teases-lenovo-u1-hybrid-competitor/
http://www.gizchina.com/2010/12/28/ubuntu-tablet-details-surface/

Not to mention that Unity is supposed to be touch-friendly by design:

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/383
  
> Of course, if you think a 24px bar is a useful UI in a touch-oriented 
> environment, i will not agree.

I don't, and that's another point against Unity in its current form for
touch devices.


Ah ok i get you now.
So how about unity launcher, NO appmenu, wingpanel 48px transparent and 
transparent titlebars with large "hide" button and large "float" button?
"float" button would scale down the window aka document and make it transparent 
just like when i'm moving windows in compiz in current natty.
also.. i suggest strongly to reduce the opacity by at least another 10% by 
default..

 
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Evolution indicator

[Jean Levasseur]

2011/1/18 frederik.nn...@gmail.com 

> *Expéditeur:* Jeremy Nickurak < jer...@nickurak.ca>
>>
>> *Date:* 17 janvier 2011 18:38:01 HNE
>>
>> *Destinataire:* Jean Levasseur < 
>> levasseur.j...@gmail.com>
>>
>> *Objet:* *Rép : [Ayatana] Evolution indicator*
>>
>> "evolution-alarm-notify", however, is a service. Maybe we need an
>> evolution-mail-notify service to fill the same area? Might be more work to
>> implement it that way however. How does evolution-data-server fit into this?
>> Is there already most of the code to do this as a "service" that sits in the
>> background and lacks the overhead of a full UI?
>>
>>
> there's gmail-notify, it has been around for a while and is supported by
> the MeMenu
>

Yes, but it does work for gmails account only.  What if I'm using an e-mail
provided by my ISP?


> * UMA and setting up account details should be seperated entities, imo.
>
> You set up your account details to the system, Ubuntu. About Me is perhaps
> going to be abolished, or not, regardless, it is a personal identity form
> which will be the central place to enter your account details for social
> networking sites, popular chat services and email accounts.
>

I'm yet to understand how exactly this data is used by my system...


> Then, there should be a system agent able to use that data to log in to the
> server and fetch information about new incoming messages, perhaps get their
> headers, so that would preferrably be an imap client, but it may be
> pop-enabled also, either way is possible.
>

That's exactly what I'm looking for!


> so, seen from the beginners mind, i turn on my computer for the first time
> with vanilla Ubuntu Unity installed on it.
> The firstrun wizard asks me to enter some information about who i am, so
> that it can configure this machine to receive my digital identity.
> I enter my First Name and my Last Name, my emailaddress e.g. f...@bar.tld .
> A throbber appears and gives me the feeling that the wizard is acting on
> that personal information i just contributed. Now out of the throbber
> another question appears: "would you like to be notified about new emails?",
> this with a cropped screencast-like animation that demoes Ubuntu's default
> email notification method (Messaging Menu indicators & Notify OSD)
>

That's all nice but another topic: we are not talking about account set-up
here, but about information fetching in the backgroud.


>
> now i can say "yes" to email notification in the manner advertised to me by
> the cropped screencast-like animation of Messaging Indicators / Notify OSD
> in action.
>
> The wizard now asks me about my chat account and offers the 5 most popular
> services, plus a button for "other".
> e.g. "would you like to see  new chat messages, too?", this with another
> cropped screencast-like animation of the Messaging Indicators / Notify OSD
> in respective action.
> ( This wheel was reinvented a zillion times with each chat app that has
> come and gone, code is lying around, or is not difficult to conceive due to
> this fact )
> I like the animation, it shows me a very elegant notification process, just
> like in those pretty Ubuntu Natty+1 release notes i saw on the website.
> I say Yes and the system indicates activity, as it fetches my contact list
> from the entered services in the background already.
> In the meantime, something like a business card is evolving, due to the
> information i am contributing. My generic avatar-placeholder is filled with
> the avatar that is stored on the server of chat account, who'se details i
> recently contributed in about the second dialog i was presented with upon
> firstrun.
>
> So there's my business card, a metaphor for my identity represented in the
> digital world, evolving into a complete personal information set, free for
> me to disclose to the world at my convenience.
>
> Now i hope i'm not "online" marked as "available" by default already,
> because i surely want to know and decide myself, when i become "visible", so
> there is a checkbox named "invisible", which is already checked (doesn't
> work for facebook chat). fortunately, at the end of my configuration fun,
> there's a final question:
>
> "Do you want to go online?"
>
> I check the aggregated virtual business card on my virtual workspace, see
> that the information was received correctly, no typos, those accounts i want
> enabled when i go on are ticked, so i say "Yes" again.. ..and the messaging
> menu is populated.
>
>
>
> Personally, i don't know to what extent it is already important to include
> Social Networking services here, such as identi.ca or facebook. Even
> twitter might be too much for starters.
> That would have to be subject to user testing.
> This is a vision some of us have already begun to describe, and i hope this
> little Userland story helps people who didn't know about it see it, too.
>

All of that is pretty nice, but I'm looking for someting a lot simplier for
now.  We have a way to fetch software updates seamles

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:22, Conscious User  wrote:

>
> I'm not really interested in brainstorming right now. Natty is going to be
> released in three
> months and I'm interested in knowing which ideas the official design team
> *already have*
> to address the hover issue, or why they don't consider it an issue.
>

there is talk about "gestures" solving many of these transitional problems
for the time being.
Eye-tracking is somewhat gestural Ix, but the type of gestures meant here
are 2-3-4 or even hand gestures on a touch-device.
Yes, dear design team, what's with it? May we know a little more about this?
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Evolution indicator

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi Jean,

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 13:02, Jean Levasseur wrote:

> 2011/1/18 frederik.nn...@gmail.com 
>
>>  *Expéditeur:* Jeremy Nickurak < jer...@nickurak.ca>
>>>
>>> *Date:* 17 janvier 2011 18:38:01 HNE
>>>
>>> *Destinataire:* Jean Levasseur < 
>>> levasseur.j...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> *Objet:* *Rép : [Ayatana] Evolution indicator*
>>>
>>> "evolution-alarm-notify", however, is a service. Maybe we need an
>>> evolution-mail-notify service to fill the same area? Might be more work to
>>> implement it that way however. How does evolution-data-server fit into this?
>>> Is there already most of the code to do this as a "service" that sits in the
>>> background and lacks the overhead of a full UI?
>>>
>>>
>> there's gmail-notify, it has been around for a while and is supported by
>> the MeMenu
>>
>
> Yes, but it does work for gmails account only.  What if I'm using an e-mail
> provided by my ISP?
>

Gmail-notify is a working example of what you are describing, that's why i
mentioned it.
The functionality is exactly what you are talking about, adding a
configuration option for "other" would complete your quest.
That done, i took the thread back to the "what" and away from the "how",
which is better kept in Ayatana-dev.

Let's keep it simple and build on what we already have!


agreed.


> I don't know the technical details about evolution-data-server, but when I
> encountered that entry in my session set-up, I firstly though that was
> exactly what I was looking for.  Perhaps I was wrong, but can it play a role
> into that?
>

AFAIK EDS is for contacts and calendar services, not really for mail. I'd
love to be proven wrong, since i also want the feature you are suggesting to
be implemented soon, it has been discussed here a lot last year, what was
somehow missing was a big picture. The big picture is what i put down in my
previous mail.
This document might or might not help you understand EDS:
http://projects.gnome.org/evolution/arch.shtml
from what i understand, CAMEL is a part of EDS, which can do what you ask,
in that the document is already contradicting itself :P

otherwise, ayatana-dev might be a better place for questions about
implementation.
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[Phong Cao Viet]

+1 here!!

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 4:50 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:33, Owais Lone  wrote:
>
>> Having a reduced set of predetermined colours would greatly increase
>> usability IMO if used in a meaningful way.
>>
>
> +1
>
>
>> For example,
>>
>> White --> Normal/Not Running
>>
>
> white is default at the moment, that's Ambiance, so agreed.
>
>
>> Yellow --> Minimized
>>
>
> what for?
>
>
>> Green --> Running
>>
>
> That's notification color in Ambiance at the moment.
>
>
>> Red --> Needs Input|Attention / Notification
>>
>
> Red is kinda strong, it means "Reboot Required" at the moment.
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[Phong Cao Viet]

+1 here!!

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 4:50 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:33, Owais Lone  wrote:
>
>> Having a reduced set of predetermined colours would greatly increase
>> usability IMO if used in a meaningful way.
>>
>
> +1
>
>
>> For example,
>>
>> White --> Normal/Not Running
>>
>
> white is default at the moment, that's Ambiance, so agreed.
>
>
>> Yellow --> Minimized
>>
>
> what for?
>
>
>> Green --> Running
>>
>
> That's notification color in Ambiance at the moment.
>
>
>> Red --> Needs Input|Attention / Notification
>>
>
> Red is kinda strong, it means "Reboot Required" at the moment.
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[Thamawij Pirajnaraporn]

Hi All,

One thing I'm happy about is many people interesting in this topic, even
though I picked it up too late. How about making some adjustment ? In my
view, remove the panel is just fine. Here's the reasons and some of them
also answers.

   - The panel that have click-able things will make touch users confuse.
   - File/Edit/View ... under the title bar also easier to touch than global
   menu.
   - Doesn't matter if the dock cannot be hide for now. Just make it not
   appear in fullscreen mode. If hiding was required that bad, then just make a
   3 fingers gesture to make it slide in or out. But I don't think hiding is
   necessary since the dock takes horizon space and most monitors are wide.
   iPad and iPhone menu also takes narrow edge of the screen for the same
   reason and no need to hide. (Basic app template of iPhone has 3 - 5
   permanent menu buttons at the bottom edge and iPad basic design for
   horizontal view always has menu button on left of right edge, forming like
   Unity dock.)

However, the biggest problem is windows control If we still use
close/minimize button at top of each windows. No one could touch that
without a few tries. Here's some solution.

   - Make the theme looks like one that deviantart :
   
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/009/3/1/ubuntu_theme_mockup_v2_by_rustedthorn-d36sxqf.png.
   This is a good idea, combining the title bar and menus into one and makes
   icons easy to touch. No need for panel. If the buttons of the windows were
   placed right-handed, the float button idea of Fredrik might work. Otherwise
   we may ...
   - Touching already activated icon makes the active window minimize.
   - On the dock icon, holding touch for a second or double tap to access
   pop-up menu that contains close, new instance or selection between
   instances. Mouse users access this via right click or double click or
   holding.

That's all I could come up for now. Anyone comes up with better idea that
possibly adapting the current interface please share. It may not able to be
in the upcoming version but I will try to pick them up for the next one when
the time has come. Hope this be helpful. I wanna see Ubuntu beats Mac in
design someday.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 7:44 PM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:22, Conscious User wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not really interested in brainstorming right now. Natty is going to be
>> released in three
>> months and I'm interested in knowing which ideas the official design team
>> *already have*
>> to address the hover issue, or why they don't consider it an issue.
>>
>
> there is talk about "gestures" solving many of these transitional problems
> for the time being.
> Eye-tracking is somewhat gestural Ix, but the type of gestures meant here
> are 2-3-4 or even hand gestures on a touch-device.
> Yes, dear design team, what's with it? May we know a little more about
> this?
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[zekopeko]

This all look fine and dandy until you realise that a the icons colors
could clash with the icon background. I can imagine it could look
quite ugly.

Windows 7 has this solved rather nicely so why not simply copy how they did it?

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:50 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com
 wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:33, Owais Lone  wrote:
>>
>> Having a reduced set of predetermined colours would greatly increase
>> usability IMO if used in a meaningful way.
>
> +1
>
>>
>> For example,
>>
>> White --> Normal/Not Running
>
> white is default at the moment, that's Ambiance, so agreed.
>
>>
>> Yellow --> Minimized
>
> what for?
>
>>
>> Green --> Running
>
> That's notification color in Ambiance at the moment.
>
>>
>> Red --> Needs Input|Attention / Notification
>
> Red is kinda strong, it means "Reboot Required" at the moment.

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[Mark Curtis]

Because it doesn't add anything to usability.
I do understand what you're saying about the color clashing, maybe if we go 
with the green/blue/red thing they may have to be muted colors.

> From: zekop...@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:28:25 +0100
> To: frederik.nn...@gmail.com
> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher
> 
> This all look fine and dandy until you realise that a the icons colors
> could clash with the icon background. I can imagine it could look
> quite ugly.
> 
> Windows 7 has this solved rather nicely so why not simply copy how they did 
> it?
> 
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:50 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:33, Owais Lone  wrote:
> >>
> >> Having a reduced set of predetermined colours would greatly increase
> >> usability IMO if used in a meaningful way.
> >
> > +1
> >
> >>
> >> For example,
> >>
> >> White --> Normal/Not Running
> >
> > white is default at the moment, that's Ambiance, so agreed.
> >
> >>
> >> Yellow --> Minimized
> >
> > what for?
> >
> >>
> >> Green --> Running
> >
> > That's notification color in Ambiance at the moment.
> >
> >>
> >> Red --> Needs Input|Attention / Notification
> >
> > Red is kinda strong, it means "Reboot Required" at the moment.
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
  ___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] App Name as a Menu

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Owais Lone wrote on 15/01/11 14:03:
>
> I was just wondering if we could replace the window title in the panel
> with an application menu like firefox. Since we are also trying to move
> away from a menu bars, I think this could be a nice addition to the
> Unity desktop.

We aren't moving away from menu bars, and even if we were, adding
another menu wouldn't help. :-)

>This would also allow apps like Firefox and Opera to
> push their new menu buttons in the panel/titlebar in a sane way.
>...

The designers of Firefox and Opera are trying to reduce the amount of
stuff inside their windows.

Compressing them into a menu button is one way of doing that.

A simpler and more consistent way, for an application running on Ubuntu,
is to use the native Ubuntu menu bar.

- -- 
mpt
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk01yhkACgkQ6PUxNfU6eco1yQCgoEccJ+Kf/45HBbbctB2hByHl
w+QAoJxBfS0e3emzkurcfCaTo1zBTdsh
=vR/8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Thamawij Pirajnaraporn wrote on 13/01/11 21:40:
>...
> I have seen the 10.10 netbook and 11.04 Alpha, Unity dock is a big
> improvement but I think global menu is not a good idea with the
> following reasons. (At first I though it was a modified gnome panel)
>
> * Panel-based OS certainly not work for touch OS because :
>   o panels take precious horizontal space of a widescreen and
> it's not match for vertical either. A small panel at the
> edge of screen is really hard to touch it precisely and
> increasing the size is just wasting screen space.

Ubuntu's multi-touch framework allows for occasional touch gestures, and
provides one of the ingredients for a touch OS. But Ubuntu is not a
touch OS.

If anyone did make a good touch OS based on Ubuntu, it would
not have a small panel at the edge of the screen (or at least, not one
with multiple target areas), for the reasons you give.

> Especially for netbooks with 1024x600 screen resolution.

Netbooks are not touch devices either. Some netbooks may have touch
screens, but expecting people to use a vertical touch screen for any
substantial period would be disregarding how human arms work.

>   o This will just follow the Microsoft Windows 7 mistake, it
> sucks on netbook with touchscreen. I have tried both Unity
> and Windows 7 on Lenovo S10-3 and I barely use touch screen
> because it's so annoying when you miss a touch. What will
> happen if small Close/Minimize/Maximize buttons went on the
> top edge ?

Any sensible touch-based OS would not have Close buttons, Minimize
buttons, or Maximize buttons. That has nothing to do with where the menu
bar is in a pointer-based OS.

> * Implementing global would be worthy if it had been done a few
>   years ago but doing it now is out-of-date since touchscreen is
>   coming. If the aim is to persuade the users from Mac with the
>   similar interface with a plus of a Unity dock then this is a big
>   mistake (I just guess for the reason, may be I'm wrong), in
>   contrast Ubuntu users that affordable for a Mac would go for it.
>   Ubuntu would be compared as a second class product that following
>   around the successors.
>...

We're using a unified menu bar in Ubuntu not "to persuade the users from
the Mac with the similar interface", but because we think it's the best
way of presenting menus in a pointer-based interface.

A pointer-based interface takes advantage of screen-edge targets (like
the menu bar), compact controls (like menus), and tooltips (as in the
Unity launcher).

A touch-based interface takes advantage of flicking (like for
scrolling), and complex drags (like twisting to rotate an object).

They are very different things, and a design that works well for one
will hardly ever work well for the other.

Cheers
- -- 
mpt
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk01zYYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecpZrACgsjPk+hYY+lvWkw5aW2Cl09W+
L2sAoKd2Rc4G8Sv7JEyfr07EGCvbxo+5
=SmO+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[Phong Cao Viet]

very nice and neat mockup IMO! Is that mockup yours?

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Thamawij Pirajnaraporn <
ubuntu.thama...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> One thing I'm happy about is many people interesting in this topic, even
> though I picked it up too late. How about making some adjustment ? In my
> view, remove the panel is just fine. Here's the reasons and some of them
> also answers.
>
>- The panel that have click-able things will make touch users confuse.
>- File/Edit/View ... under the title bar also easier to touch than
>global menu.
>- Doesn't matter if the dock cannot be hide for now. Just make it not
>appear in fullscreen mode. If hiding was required that bad, then just make 
> a
>3 fingers gesture to make it slide in or out. But I don't think hiding is
>necessary since the dock takes horizon space and most monitors are wide.
>iPad and iPhone menu also takes narrow edge of the screen for the same
>reason and no need to hide. (Basic app template of iPhone has 3 - 5
>permanent menu buttons at the bottom edge and iPad basic design for
>horizontal view always has menu button on left of right edge, forming like
>Unity dock.)
>
> However, the biggest problem is windows control If we still use
> close/minimize button at top of each windows. No one could touch that
> without a few tries. Here's some solution.
>
>- Make the theme looks like one that deviantart :
>
> http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/009/3/1/ubuntu_theme_mockup_v2_by_rustedthorn-d36sxqf.png.
>This is a good idea, combining the title bar and menus into one and makes
>icons easy to touch. No need for panel. If the buttons of the windows were
>placed right-handed, the float button idea of Fredrik might work. Otherwise
>we may ...
>- Touching already activated icon makes the active window minimize.
>- On the dock icon, holding touch for a second or double tap to access
>pop-up menu that contains close, new instance or selection between
>instances. Mouse users access this via right click or double click or
>holding.
>
> That's all I could come up for now. Anyone comes up with better idea that
> possibly adapting the current interface please share. It may not able to be
> in the upcoming version but I will try to pick them up for the next one when
> the time has come. Hope this be helpful. I wanna see Ubuntu beats Mac in
> design someday.
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 7:44 PM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:22, Conscious User wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really interested in brainstorming right now. Natty is going to
>>> be released in three
>>> months and I'm interested in knowing which ideas the official design team
>>> *already have*
>>> to address the hover issue, or why they don't consider it an issue.
>>>
>>
>> there is talk about "gestures" solving many of these transitional problems
>> for the time being.
>> Eye-tracking is somewhat gestural Ix, but the type of gestures meant here
>> are 2-3-4 or even hand gestures on a touch-device.
>> Yes, dear design team, what's with it? May we know a little more about
>> this?
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[zekopeko]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Mark Curtis  wrote:
> Because it doesn't add anything to usability.

I don't agree. Windows 7 makes it very clear what applications are
running and which ones are not. It also makes it clear which ones have
multiple windows, which ones have running task etc.

Currently the backlight reduces usability because it colors all the
icons so the only way to know if applications are running are tiny
triangles.

> I do understand what you're saying about the color clashing, maybe if we go
> with the green/blue/red thing they may have to be muted colors.
>
>> From: zekop...@gmail.com
>> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:28:25 +0100
>> To: frederik.nn...@gmail.com
>> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher
>>
>> This all look fine and dandy until you realise that a the icons colors
>> could clash with the icon background. I can imagine it could look
>> quite ugly.
>>
>> Windows 7 has this solved rather nicely so why not simply copy how they
>> did it?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:50 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com
>>  wrote:
>> > On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:33, Owais Lone  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Having a reduced set of predetermined colours would greatly increase
>> >> usability IMO if used in a meaningful way.
>> >
>> > +1
>> >
>> >>
>> >> For example,
>> >>
>> >> White --> Normal/Not Running
>> >
>> > white is default at the moment, that's Ambiance, so agreed.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Yellow --> Minimized
>> >
>> > what for?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Green --> Running
>> >
>> > That's notification color in Ambiance at the moment.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Red --> Needs Input|Attention / Notification
>> >
>> > Red is kinda strong, it means "Reboot Required" at the moment.
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to     : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[Mark Curtis]

I'm sorry, when I said "it" I meant Unity's current implementation of always 
have the background color, not Windows 7's implementation.
Currently Unity is a clear case of copying the what (the background color is 
the icons' background color) without copying the why (do so to tell the user 
which application is running)

> From: zekop...@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:51:49 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher
> To: merkin...@hotmail.com
> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Mark Curtis  wrote:
> > Because it doesn't add anything to usability.
> 
> I don't agree. Windows 7 makes it very clear what applications are
> running and which ones are not. It also makes it clear which ones have
> multiple windows, which ones have running task etc.
> 
> Currently the backlight reduces usability because it colors all the
> icons so the only way to know if applications are running are tiny
> triangles.
> 
> > I do understand what you're saying about the color clashing, maybe if we go
> > with the green/blue/red thing they may have to be muted colors.
> >
> >> From: zekop...@gmail.com
> >> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:28:25 +0100
> >> To: frederik.nn...@gmail.com
> >> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher
> >>
> >> This all look fine and dandy until you realise that a the icons colors
> >> could clash with the icon background. I can imagine it could look
> >> quite ugly.
> >>
> >> Windows 7 has this solved rather nicely so why not simply copy how they
> >> did it?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:50 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com
> >>  wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:33, Owais Lone  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Having a reduced set of predetermined colours would greatly increase
> >> >> usability IMO if used in a meaningful way.
> >> >
> >> > +1
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> For example,
> >> >>
> >> >> White --> Normal/Not Running
> >> >
> >> > white is default at the moment, that's Ambiance, so agreed.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Yellow --> Minimized
> >> >
> >> > what for?
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Green --> Running
> >> >
> >> > That's notification color in Ambiance at the moment.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Red --> Needs Input|Attention / Notification
> >> >
> >> > Red is kinda strong, it means "Reboot Required" at the moment.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> >> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> >
  ___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[Conscious User]

> They are very different things, and a design that works well for one
> will hardly ever work well for the other.


I'm a little bit confused now because Mark's blog post about Unity
clearly stated that some design decisions were motivated by touch
devices. Is the Unity design still taking touch into consideration
or this was completely dropped once it was decided that Desktops
would use it too?



___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 18:58, Mark Curtis  wrote:

>  I'm sorry, when I said "it" I meant Unity's current implementation of
> always have the background color, not Windows 7's implementation.
> Currently Unity is a clear case of copying the what (the background color
> is the icons' background color) without copying the why (do so to tell the
> user which application is running)
>
> > From: zekop...@gmail.com
> > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:51:49 +0100
>
> > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher
> > To: merkin...@hotmail.com
>
> > CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Mark Curtis 
> wrote:
> > > Because it doesn't add anything to usability.
> >
> > I don't agree. Windows 7 makes it very clear what applications are
> > running and which ones are not. It also makes it clear which ones have
> > multiple windows, which ones have running task etc.
> >
> > Currently the backlight reduces usability because it colors all the
> > icons so the only way to know if applications are running are tiny
> > triangles.
> >
> > > I do understand what you're saying about the color clashing, maybe if
> we go
> > > with the green/blue/red thing they may have to be muted colors.
>

If we'd start by removing the backgrounds from Trash and Workspace Switcher,
we'd probably hint ourselves into the right direction here.
Also, the Workspace Switcher so wants to be on top, at the opposite end from
where the Trash currently is.

These might be unrelated at first glance, but if i think deeper, i come to
realize that cleaning up the Dock reveals the true nature of what needs to
be done here, and what is superfluent.
Actually, i can't wait to see the Unity dock sith ALL its launchers, not
having backgrounds.. or, alternatively, with transparent colorless
backgrounds, which would be more consistent.
The thing that annoys me the most about the Unity dock is that all these
colors are getting on my nerves.
The other thing is that it disappears too quickly, but that's really OT ;)
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 19:09, Conscious User  wrote:

>
>
> > They are very different things, and a design that works well for one
> > will hardly ever work well for the other.
>
>
> I'm a little bit confused now because Mark's blog post about Unity
> clearly stated that some design decisions were motivated by touch
> devices. Is the Unity design still taking touch into consideration
> or this was completely dropped once it was decided that Desktops
> would use it too?


wow.. i think i'm having a Déja Vu!

 On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 22:24, Matthew Paul Thomas 
 wrote:

>
> Of course the iPad doesn't use a File menu, it has a touch interface.
> (And hides files almost completely.) But thinking that a touch interface
> will work well on a desktop machine is just as wishful as thinking the
> reverse.


(an excerpt from "[Ayatana] Global Menu on the Desktop")
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] App Name as a Menu

[Owais Lone]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Owais Lone wrote on 15/01/11 14:03:
> >
> > I was just wondering if we could replace the window title in the panel
> > with an application menu like firefox. Since we are also trying to move
> > away from a menu bars, I think this could be a nice addition to the
> > Unity desktop.
>
> We aren't moving away from menu bars, and even if we were, adding
> another menu wouldn't help. :-)
>
> >This would also allow apps like Firefox and Opera to
> > push their new menu buttons in the panel/titlebar in a sane way.
> >...
>
> The designers of Firefox and Opera are trying to reduce the amount of
> stuff inside their windows.
>
> Compressing them into a menu button is one way of doing that.
>
> A simpler and more consistent way, for an application running on Ubuntu,
> is to use the native Ubuntu menu bar.
>
>
> I really want the app management commands to be easily and quickly
available. Like Autostart, Remove or Upgrade. We can add these shortcuts to
quite a few places  like the launcher quicklist or dash itself but IMO it
would be best to have these functions in the appmenu I'm proposing.
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

[Ayatana] Fwd: App Name as a Menu

[Carl Simpson]

Oops.  Didn't send this the list.  (Sorry Mr. Lone, you're gonna get this
twice. :/)

-- Forwarded message --
From: Carl Simpson 
Date: 2011/1/19
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] App Name as a Menu
To: he...@owaislone.org


“Remove or Upgrade”

You've got update-manager to handle upgrades without the user ever having to
volunteer their time to that.

Software Centre allows you to remove stuff.

I don't think removing and upgrading are such frequent behaviours as to
justify such a forward facing presence.

I would also take exception to the "add to launcher" bit, as the launcher is
where I'd go to see about things on it.  As it happens, that's where the
add-to-launcher functionality has been put by Canonical's wise and great
designers, too.

Screenshotting seems extremely niche a want, too.  `gnome-screenshot
--interactive`, which is called something like "Screenshot Tool" by name,
handles selecting a particular window to screenshot, and is installed by
default.

Not all applications support proper full screening, either (e.g. pidgin,
nautilus).

Also, screenshotting, fullscreening, etc, are window specific, where as the
title there is only *app* specific.  When I go to, say, "Pidgin >
screenshot", or "Firefox > fullscreen", which window does it mean?
Presumably the active one, but that seems like a UI incongruity.

2011/1/18 Owais Lone 

>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas 
> wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Owais Lone wrote on 15/01/11 14:03:
>> >
>> > I was just wondering if we could replace the window title in the panel
>> > with an application menu like firefox. Since we are also trying to move
>> > away from a menu bars, I think this could be a nice addition to the
>> > Unity desktop.
>>
>> We aren't moving away from menu bars, and even if we were, adding
>> another menu wouldn't help. :-)
>>
>> >This would also allow apps like Firefox and Opera to
>> > push their new menu buttons in the panel/titlebar in a sane way.
>> >...
>>
>> The designers of Firefox and Opera are trying to reduce the amount of
>> stuff inside their windows.
>>
>> Compressing them into a menu button is one way of doing that.
>>
>> A simpler and more consistent way, for an application running on Ubuntu,
>> is to use the native Ubuntu menu bar.
>>
>>
>> I really want the app management commands to be easily and quickly
> available. Like Autostart, Remove or Upgrade. We can add these shortcuts to
> quite a few places  like the launcher quicklist or dash itself but IMO it
> would be best to have these functions in the appmenu I'm proposing.
>
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS

[Thamawij Pirajnaraporn]

@Phong Cao Viet - That's not my mock up. ^^ But I agree that it's nice and
well-design.
@Matthew Paul Thomas - Thanks for clarify about Unity course. Personally, I
don't agree that touch OS cannot play well with a pointer and believe the
reason that Mac split them into two is just because of marketing reason.
However, I really appreciate that you read and answer my opinion seriously.
Either it was accepted or not, I'm still looking forward to the upcoming
Unity.
@Conscious User & frederik.nn...@gmail.com - I think we have the same taste.
Do you guys able to find some knowledge or team to making one ? I may not
very good at programming but I know a bit of C and Python and love designing
(But please don't expect much form me, I'm just a newbie here.) Let's share
what we have. I had tried cairo-dock and currently try docky to make a touch
interface. Without maximize windows, Moon OS theme may works for touch
somehow. Although, nothing can do a lovely slide just like Unity TT TT. How
about you guys ?

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:25 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 19:09, Conscious User wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > They are very different things, and a design that works well for one
>> > will hardly ever work well for the other.
>>
>>
>> I'm a little bit confused now because Mark's blog post about Unity
>> clearly stated that some design decisions were motivated by touch
>> devices. Is the Unity design still taking touch into consideration
>> or this was completely dropped once it was decided that Desktops
>> would use it too?
>
>
> wow.. i think i'm having a Déja Vu!
>
>  On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 22:24, Matthew Paul Thomas 
>  wrote:
>
>>
>> Of course the iPad doesn't use a File menu, it has a touch interface.
>> (And hides files almost completely.) But thinking that a touch interface
>> will work well on a desktop machine is just as wishful as thinking the
>> reverse.
>
>
> (an excerpt from "[Ayatana] Global Menu on the Desktop")
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: App Name as a Menu

[andrea azzarone]

Perhaps this might me an idea. I post a link that summarize it (it is in 
Italian but the content is 
clear):http://www.ubuntusecrets.it/2011/01/global-menu-unity-musl1m-colpisce-ancora/
---Andrea

  ___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Ayatana] Papercut or not? Bug #495403 in One Hundred Paper Cuts: “Do not raise windows or dialogs without user input”

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi mpt,

this ancient problem is still not really resolved, is it?
By now we are on Compiz by default, and that's where i would want the
problem fixed.
Especially envisioning the possibility of Compiz also working without 3d
accelleration in the future.

Resolving it could presumably also help clear some questions in Unity.
Allow me..

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 19:30, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Frederik Nnaji wrote on 21/06/10 16:44:
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 10:00, Matthew Paul Thomas  >...
> >> Greg K Nicholson wrote on 29/05/10 02:05:
> >>>
> >>> I suggest that if you haven't had time to focus another window (i.e.
> >>> if you haven't started doing something else), focus the new window.
> >>> If you've focused another window, the new window should open in the
> >>> background.
> >>
> >> So how do you define "started doing something else"?
> >
> > Something else is mouse and/or keyboard activity in an other
> > application.
>
> So how do you define "activity"?
>
> If the mouse button is actually *down*, or a keyboard key is actually
> *pressed*, when a window from another application requests a raise, it
> should not be raised. That much is obvious (and seems to be a bug in
> current Metacity).
>
> But what if you released the mouse button, or the keyboard key, 0.1
> seconds before the other window requests the raise? You're quite likely
> to be in the middle of a double-click or of typing a word. So the window
> shouldn't be raised then either.
>
> Ok, so what if you released the mouse button, or the keyboard key, 0.5
> seconds before the other window requests the raise? The same applies,
> just a bit less certainly.
>
> So, we've gone as far as ignoring raise requests 0.5 seconds after the
> last release event. But what about one whole second after? Two seconds?
> Three? Five? Ten?
>

This could be quite simple:
Imagine you're writing your essay in your favourite Word Processor, typing,
clicking, panning and zooming, whatever.
Now there's this word you couldn't find in the Word Processor's built-in
dictionary, so you need to open your favourite Browser to find it online.
Now there are precisely 2 things that can happen:
1) the browser starts up immediately, i.e. before you get the chance to
interact with anything else
2) the browser starts up delayed, i.e. you get enough time to start typing,
clicking or otherwise interacting with another app, before browser's launch
is complete

*now*, in case 1 we have all the conditions satisfied for arrogantly raising
the browser window, because since the menu-interaction (clicking the
browser's launcher) and *now*, no human-computer interaction has taken place
anywhere else (disregarding eye movement for now..).
For case 2 the obvious sequel is clear: after clicking the browser's
launcher in e.g. Unity's Dock, i started interacting with something else,
i.e. i gave my human focus to another application, window, document or
whatever one would want to call that.. NOW it would be focus-stealing, to
pop up the browser window on top of the Z-Stack in my face, no matter if the
last keystroke is 0.5 sec, 1.0 sec or 25.9 sec ago. Simply because i decided
to focus another application *after* i decided to launch the browser.

I think this is more like the conditional logic you were asking about.

So all depends on what the user does and in what sequence of action.
If the computer had a way of knowing better what i wish to focus now, i
would expect it to act on that knowledge. But the only knowledge it has is
in what sequence (when) i performed the steps of interaction, so it should
be able to at least honor *that*.

What about the app i launched?
It should either have a throbber while it's loading, or a progress
animation. Either way, it is in the interest of the user that a continuous
visualisation of progress or activity is present in or on every
representation of the app whose launch i requested. If i decide to focus
something else in the meanwhile, it is only natural to assume that i want to
be notified once the app i requested is ready for use.
I want to be notified, not interrupted or thrown out of typing. The proposed
"morphing windows" could be a solution here. It's just that they should not
get keyboard focus or anything, they should only be on top of the stack and
preferrably not fully opaque and in the middle of the screen. Persistent
until either dismissed or confirmed.

What do you think?
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp