Re: [Ayatana] Evolution indicator

[Didier Roche]

Le mardi 04 janvier 2011 à 00:03 +, Mark Shuttleworth a écrit :
> On 21/12/10 15:08, Jeremy Nickurak wrote:
> > Email notifications tell me when I need to have my email open. When
> > I'm done, I close my email app (which should NOT stop me from getting
> > email notifications). When I get another notification (which I don't
> > right now, because the previous step broke them), I open my email app
> > again (either by running it in the menu, or by selecting the message
> > in the messaging menu).
> 
> We're in complete agreement - the mail client should happily run in the
> background with no windows showing, the messaging menu can indicate the
> app is running, and clicking on entries in the messaging menu should
> create the window instantly.
> 


That was part of a blueprint I drafted and that we discussed at last
UDS. mpt convinced me to not do that. You can find the notes at the
blueprint address:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-desktop-n-coherent-behavior-for-apps-in-messagingmenu

and the session was taped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP59qj3DJSY

Didier



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Re: [Ayatana] Some ideas for the Software Center

[Paul Sladen]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> On 13/12/10 11:52, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> > Like apt-get, USC installs recommended items by default,
> we could recommend the Python bindings and development libraries.
> I suspect a lot of this will require some server-side smarts but
> it's a fruitful area for us to be exploring.

There is "Enhances:" which is the inverse equivalent of "Suggests:"
(declared in package B, rather than package A), but currently no
counterpart for "Recommends:":

  http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-binarydeps

Flipping it over also means that the operators are inverted, so
'Recommends: x | y | z' becomes 'Super-Enhances: x & y & z'
(autoremovable install if Python and some other package).

-Paul



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Re: [Ayatana] Evolution indicator

[Paul Sladen]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> On 21/12/10 15:08, Jeremy Nickurak wrote:
> > Email notifications tell me when I need to have my email open.
> We're in complete agreement - the mail client should happily run in the
> background with no windows showing,

How would this work with Hotmail/Gmail?  These mail clients are highly
popular but there's going to need to be some cunning level of
integration to have that experience "just work".

Jeremy: were you originally referring to the workflow where (eg. after
your morning login) *no applications have yet been started*, but you'd
still like to see a notification that there are "10 messages and 147
spams" that have arrived overnight?  ---Prompting you to then start
the mail client itself?

-Paul


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Re: [Ayatana] Why the launcher should be on the right

[Mirek M.]

Hi Mark,
thanks for the response,

2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth 

>  On 19/12/10 17:22, Mirek M. wrote:
>
> *The whole left side of the screen would be devoted to the current
> application*
> Right now, you get some system-related commands on the right of the top
> panel, application-related commands on the left, and some more
> system-related commands on the far left.
> Moving the launcher and the Ubuntu button to the right would put all the
> system-related commands on the right and all the app-related commands on the
> left, so neither the launcher nor the Ubuntu button gets in the way when
> working with a single application.
>
>
> One idea we try to preserve is the "hierarchy of information", which says
> that (in left-to-right languages) organising structure should be on the
> left, and content on the right. In this case, the launcher is very much
> "organising structure".
>

I understand the point, however, in most operating systems, this rule of
information hierarchy is not followed in application/window
indicators/launchers. The GNOME, XFCE, KDE, and LXDE panels, Windows
taskbar, and Mac OS X dock are all on bottom, not on top, which I assume is
because they interfere less with workflow than if they were on top.
Chrome OS, on the other hand, puts tabs on top, because it is its assumption
that the user doesn't stay in a single tab very long, but constantly
switches between tabs.
Therefore, unless it is Ubuntu's intention that the user should be switching
applications frequently, I think it is more wise to put the launcher on the
right and not on the left.

>
>  *A "hot corner" wouldn't get in the way*
> Keeping application commands separate from system commands is especially
> important to workflow when you have areas that activate on hover (e.g.
> Ubuntu button). It is extremely annoying and distracting when you
> accidentally mouse over a "hot corner"and have to wait a few seconds to get
> back to work. As the menu bar and window buttons are aligned left, and as
> most toolbars are also left-aligned, a hot corner on the right will be less
> likely to be accidentally triggered than a hot corner on the left.
>
>
> At the moment, the corner is overly sensitive because the launcher shows up
> for a few seconds if you go over the Ubuntu button. But in fact, it should
> actually require you to hit the corner. Fixing that should reduce the impact
> of this feeling.
>
>  *The application would get the most focus*
> As most languages are read from left to right, our focus tends to start at
> the left side of the screen. If the goal of Unity is to maintain focus on a
> single task, it makes most sense to put the launcher somewhere where it
> doesn't distract from the application -- on the right.
>
>
> Well, when you are focused on an app, the launcher should be invisible.
> Balancing focus and awareness is a key design goal for us in Unity, hence
> the intellihiding approach. There are other things we can do to take this
> even further, but they'll have to wait for 11.10.
>

Even with the launcher hidden, the Ubuntu button still gets in the way --
because it's right next to window buttons and the menu bar. If you want to
really focus on an application, you need the whole application to be
separate from system buttons and commands.
BTW, what's in plans for 11.10?

>
>
>
>  *"Tools" would be easier to target*
> Most image editors, raster or vector, have a "Tools" sidebar on the left,
> which is very easy to target when it is at the edge of the screen, but very
> hard to target when there's a launcher at the left edge of the screen.
>
>
> Again, the app should generally get all the real estate, including the left
> edge, solving this issue (i.e. giving Fitt's Law friendly edges to the app).
>
>
>  I hope that this is enough to at least consider moving the launcher to
> the right.
>
>
> Good points, well argued, but I'm afraid the balance remains in favour of
> the left edge for now.
>

Would at least an option to have the launcher on the right be possible?

>
>

> Mark
>
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[Ayatana] The Wall instead of "Desktop"

[Cyrille Ngassam Nkwenga]

Hi All Friends,

Warning : I'm not a designer, but just a daily user of Ubuntu.



So let have a look on the "Desktop" paradigm.

We used to understand the "Desktop" as the one on real life.  The "desktop
contains our files(can contain Personal Data, Music, Pictures, Movies), this
is the way we used it just now. But in this way , the Desktop means the same
thing as our Home Folder.  it is a bit confusing. When we are working on
Computer, we don't have any sight of the "Desktop", so for most of the time
is irrelevant for us to keep on going with the "Desktop" as a Folder.

I think they was/are active discussion about this "Desktop" paradigm.

Here is my Idea : Why not start thinking of the Desktop as just A Big
(pin)Wall !

So we could add Notice , link (shotcuts), pictures, and more relevant things
to the Wall through Widget. as a background for the Wall, light 'Wall'papers
are just a logical choice.
Designer could think about any other possibilty the Wall paradigm  could
bring to the user's experience.

Thanks All for reading me
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Re: [Ayatana] The Wall instead of "Desktop"

[Mohamed Ikbel Boulabiar]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Cyrille Ngassam Nkwenga
wrote:

> Here is my Idea : Why not start thinking of the Desktop as just A Big
> (pin)Wall !
>
> So we could add Notice , link (shotcuts), pictures, and more relevant
> things to the Wall through Widget. as a background for the Wall, light
> 'Wall'papers are just a logical choice.
> Designer could think about any other possibilty the Wall paradigm  could
> bring to the user's experience.
>

The important thing in paradigms is not their names. But how a new one can
be benefit to us.
Before introducing a new one. You need to specify what are
the inconveniences of the current paradigm.

And there are many questions you should ask:
What are the problems?
How the new one can help?
Why this can't be done in the previous one?
How much things/apps should be rewritten?
What are the limits of the new paradigm?
 etc...

Any links to scientific publications and work is also welcome.
Thanks,

i
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Re: [Ayatana] The Wall instead of "Desktop"

[Luke Benstead]

On 4 January 2011 11:19, Cyrille Ngassam Nkwenga  wrote:

> Hi All Friends,
>
> Warning : I'm not a designer, but just a daily user of Ubuntu.
>
>
>
> So let have a look on the "Desktop" paradigm.
>
> We used to understand the "Desktop" as the one on real life.  The "desktop
> contains our files(can contain Personal Data, Music, Pictures, Movies), this
> is the way we used it just now. But in this way , the Desktop means the same
> thing as our Home Folder.  it is a bit confusing. When we are working on
> Computer, we don't have any sight of the "Desktop", so for most of the time
> is irrelevant for us to keep on going with the "Desktop" as a Folder.
>
> I think they was/are active discussion about this "Desktop" paradigm.
>
> Here is my Idea : Why not start thinking of the Desktop as just A Big
> (pin)Wall !
>
> So we could add Notice , link (shotcuts), pictures, and more relevant
> things to the Wall through Widget. as a background for the Wall, light
> 'Wall'papers are just a logical choice.
> Designer could think about any other possibilty the Wall paradigm  could
> bring to the user's experience.
>
> Thanks All for reading me
>
>
>
This seems quite relevant to this discussion:
http://live.gnome.org/TheBoardProject/

Luke.
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Re: [Ayatana] The Wall instead of "Desktop"

[Frederik Nnaji]

On 01/04/2011 12:19 PM, Cyrille Ngassam Nkwenga wrote:


So let have a look on the "Desktop" paradigm.


;)


We used to understand the "Desktop" as the one on real life.


the metaphor has been around from the beginning on, when PCs had the 
size of refrigerators, and only clerks and accountants used them..


The "desktop contains our files(can contain Personal Data, Music, 
Pictures, Movies), this is the way we used it just now. But in this 
way , the Desktop means the same thing as our Home Folder.


there's a gconf key for this, it is called desktop_is_home_dir in 
/apps/nautilus/preferences. It has actually been around in there for a 
while.. try it out and report back with how you feel about it, is what i 
suggest!
I tried it for a while, and it was rewarding at first, then it became a 
bit disturbing, because nautilus kept showing both folders, while they 
were actually the same.
another thing that disturbed me was that i now had no generic place to 
put stuff which i didn't want to have in my face all the time..


it is a bit confusing. When we are working on Computer, we don't have 
any sight of the "Desktop", so for most of the time is irrelevant for 
us to keep on going with the "Desktop" as a Folder.


i think it is still quite useful as a drop destination for spontaneous 
drags, don't you agree?


Here is my Idea : Why not start thinking of the Desktop as just A Big 
(pin)Wall !


yeah, that came up before iirc, ..because especially our screens are 
also usually not integrated into the "desk", but facing us vertically. 
That's inappropriate for a "top" arrangement, and it is tactically 
useful for a "wall"-type setup.


otoh i think neither really matters that much anymore, since compositing 
offers us the possibility pretty depth-simulation, it will be kinda 3d 
quite soon, as i dare to predict.
So whether we call it a wall or a desktop will not be of much difference 
anymore, call it "theme" if you like :D


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Re: [Ayatana] The Wall instead of "Desktop"

[Luke Benstead]

> another thing that disturbed me was that i now had no generic place to put
> stuff which i didn't want to have in my face all the time..
>


^^ this

I only ever use the desktop for stuff I need temporarily or that is yet to
be organized. I wish there was a corner of the screen where I could drag
files into a "box" that was then hidden away (autohide-style) where I could
retrieve them later. I'd also like to be able to save files to this box
(e.g. download files to it). Sometimes I'd like to empty it (which would
move the files to the rubbish bin). I'm visualising a slide-out drawer here.

The big problem with using the Desktop for this functionality is you have to
clear your workspace while you access the contents. What I'd like, (and I'm
sure I'm not alone) is a globally and quickly accessible temporary storage
area which is similar to the Rubbish Bin, but more accessible and for stuff
not necessarily destined for deletion.

Luke.
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Re: [Ayatana] The Wall instead of "Desktop"

[Frederik Nnaji]

On 01/04/2011 01:12 PM, Luke Benstead wrote:


another thing that disturbed me was that i now had no generic
place to put stuff which i didn't want to have in my face all the
time..



^^ this

I only ever use the desktop for stuff I need temporarily or that is 
yet to be organized. I wish there was a corner of the screen where I 
could drag files into a "box" that was then hidden away 
(autohide-style) where I could retrieve them later. I'd also like to 
be able to save files to this box (e.g. download files to it). 
Sometimes I'd like to empty it (which would move the files to the 
rubbish bin). I'm visualising a slide-out drawer here.


The big problem with using the Desktop for this functionality is you 
have to clear your workspace while you access the contents. What I'd 
like, (and I'm sure I'm not alone) is a globally and quickly 
accessible temporary storage area which is similar to the Rubbish Bin, 
but more accessible and for stuff not necessarily destined for deletion.


how about a place called "Recent" ?
Places > Recent.
e.g. Applications could offer it for File>Open Recent.
or you could select it in the gtk-file-chooser thingy e.g. on "import" 
or "open" in just about any application.


Imagine:
you just downloaded a .gif from a website, now you opened the GIMP and 
you want to open the file in the GIMP (that's how many people do it): 
you don't even have to remember anymore, where you dropped it to! just 
find the recently downloaded, received or created object in 
Places>Recent, select it, click open.


In this case, Places>Recent would need to be forgetful, dumping its 
content into Places>Archive after a while (or when it's getting 
crowded.. for v2.0 ;) )




Luke.


thanks so much for the link to the board project in your previous mail!!!
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Re: [Ayatana] Desktop Silent Mode

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote on 17/12/10 15:18:
>...
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 14:58, Matthew Paul Thomas ...
>> frederik.nn...@gmail.com  wrote on
>> 16/12/10 18:42:
>>>...
>>> * Presence has no local effect
>>> * Presence has no effect on Skype (except with Pidgin running)
>>>-> https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-me/+bug/684678
>>> * System Sounds are not connected with notifications (perhaps with
>>> Dylan's patch?)
>>
>> None of those are the reason.
>
> exactly, they merely contribute to the problem somehow, as you will
> elaborate later in your mail..
> i'd like to add another issue that contributes to the problem:
> We have no "connected to the internet" indicator.
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-online-status

That looks like a useful feature, but I don't understand how it's
relevant to this discussion.

>> The main reason is that, as you say,
>>
>>> Busy aka DoNotDisturb has been around for as long as i know
>>> Presence in IM,
>>
>> and no-one has ever gotten around the problem that (a) having to go
>> online with your IM account for the purpose of being interrupted
>> *less* often would be daft, and
>
> I did! ;) (perhaps a mail that never left /drafts) :
> * put an ON|OFF toggle for IM into the MeMenu

You did. But that is exactly what I meant by "(b) any design that works
around that by making 'being online' a separate thing from being in 'do
not disturb' mode would make IM slower and more complicated to use".

> * always keep Presence controls active, regardless of IM¹

What use would that be? How would you avoid wasting people's time, by
wrongly implying that it's useful for them to toggle between "brb" and
"In a meeting" (for example) when they're not even online?

> * remove "Available", since it is identical with the regular Presence
> state for IM and the Desktop Session

What regular presence state?

> * remove "Offline", since it is identical to IM = OFF

That would make instant messaging state more difficult to understand in
Ubuntu than in any other OS.

> * allow checking and unchecking Away OR Busy
> * make "Invisible" an extra checkbox, orthogonal to the other Presence
> controls. [perhaps rename to "visible"]

What use would that be? What's the useful distinction between Invisible
+ Available and Invisible + Away?

> This is why i mentioned invisible in the first place.
> For those who want to appear as "busy" or "do not disturb" on IM, while
> keeping notifications ON (unmuted), we can leave an override interface
> in Empathy, as Contact List currently has.
> Me Menu Presence controls should remain the Master controls for all
> clients who obey the User's wish for privacy as commanded via Me Menu.

I don't understand what this has to do with privacy. What do you mean?

>...
> I need a way of guaranteeing that during a high level staff meeting, my
> presentation will absolutely not be interrupted by anything.
>...

That's not practical. We'll still interrupt you when you have only a
few minutes battery left, or when your hard disk is dying -- as well we
should.

So, any global knob would be for "fewer interruptions", not "no
interruptions". And this would make it impractical to communicate. Fewer
than what, exactly? And why would people ever *not* choose fewer
interruptions? How would this be different from saying to them, "Sorry,
the makers of Ubuntu are too incompetent to design software. Why don't
you have a go"?

>...
> ¹ allowing the user to set his desired state of Availability *before*
> activating IM allows for "going online" in a desired state, instead of
> being limited to being Available by default

Letting people switch from "Offline" to their desired state without the
IM client running would achieve exactly the same purpose, twice as fast.

- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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[Ayatana] Application Menu in Unity Panel

[appi2...@gmail.com]

There might have already been discussion about this, and this issue might
have been resolved, but I would just like to make sure.

Currently, when using compiz-unity, the top panel shows the application name
by default, and the menu only when I fade over it. For me, at least, this
causes some confusion. Since I have no indication of where my menu will be,
I am not inclined to try the application name. The only reason I discovered
this feature is because I knew it was coming. I'm pretty sure that users who
don't know anything about unity will not know it is there. (Usability
testing would be nice here.)

Basically, there should be some indication that the menu is hidden there.

What I propose is showing the menu behind the title.

The title will always be placed directly to the left of the close buttons.
If the space between the end of the title and the start of the indicators is
enough for the menu, the menu will be placed directly to the left of the
title.
If not, the menu's right edge will be next to the left edge of the
indicators. Normally, the menu will fade out near where the title starts.
On hover, the menu will fade in, and the title would fade out where the menu
starts.

For example, for terminal, where there is space for both, it would look like
this:

[  U  OOO *a...@appi-mini:~*  File Edit View Search Terminal
Help  A A A A A S S S ]

For Rhythmbox, where there isn't enough space, it would look like this
normally:

[  U  OOO *Tears for Fears - Everybody Wants to Rule the World* *ew T*ools
Control Help  A A A A A S S S ]
[  U  OOO *Tears for Fears - Everybody Wants to R *Music Edit View Tools
Control Help  A A A A A S S S ]

If the title is too big, I recommend fading it out to allow the last menu
item to remain visible.
Where:

   - U = ubuntu button
   - OOO = Close/Min/Max
   - *Bold Text* = Title text
   - *Underlined* = fade out.
   - Normal Text = Menu
   - A = Application indicator
   - S = System Indicator


With this method, the menu is always visible when it can be, and somewhat
visible when it can't, but visible nonetheless, thus showing the user where
it is.

If this issue has already been resolved, great!

If it hasn't, then let the conversation on this thread find a solution to
this problem (IMO).
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Re: [Ayatana] Desktop Silent Mode

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

*sweat*

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 15:49, Matthew Paul Thomas  wrote:

>
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote on 17/12/10 15:18:
> >...
> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 14:58, Matthew Paul Thomas  >...
> >> frederik.nn...@gmail.com  wrote on
> >> 16/12/10 18:42:
> >>>...
> >>> * Presence has no local effect
> >>> * Presence has no effect on Skype (except with Pidgin running)
> >>>-> https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-me/+bug/684678
> >>> * System Sounds are not connected with notifications (perhaps with
> >>> Dylan's patch?)
> >>
> >> None of those are the reason.
> >
> > exactly, they merely contribute to the problem somehow, as you will
> > elaborate later in your mail..
> > i'd like to add another issue that contributes to the problem:
> > We have no "connected to the internet" indicator.
> > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-online-status
>
> That looks like a useful feature, but I don't understand how it's
> relevant to this discussion.
>

Because having in indicator for whether or not i'm connected to the internet
already untangles the semantic confusion of having a button called "Offline"
in the Me Menu to a great extent.
I for one believe that solving one large problem often makes many little
problems become even smaller, eventually disappearing by themselves ;)

>> The main reason is that, as you say,
> >>
> >>> Busy aka DoNotDisturb has been around for as long as i know
> >>> Presence in IM,
> >>
> >> and no-one has ever gotten around the problem that (a) having to go
> >> online with your IM account for the purpose of being interrupted
> >> *less* often would be daft, and
> >
> > I did! ;) (perhaps a mail that never left /drafts) :
> > * put an ON|OFF toggle for IM into the MeMenu
>
> You did. But that is exactly what I meant by "(b) any design that works
> around that by making 'being online' a separate thing from being in 'do
> not disturb' mode would make IM slower and more complicated to use".
>

ok, i'm beginning to understand that now, i wish i were faster :D
In the mockups i sketched so far for a combined menu i omitted this thought
already, since i felt my theory to be impracticaL.

> * always keep Presence controls active, regardless of IM¹
>
> What use would that be? How would you avoid wasting people's time, by
> wrongly implying that it's useful for them to toggle between "brb" and
> "In a meeting" (for example) when they're not even online?
>

I'd say Notify OSD and e.g. power management or the screensaver service
would like to know if i'm busy doing something, even if that would mean i'm
only staring at the screen, or there's a standing picture being displayed.
Your point makes perfect sense, but i'm not talking about the Presence
controls in Online-only fashion, i see them as a status relevant to the
local system also.


> > * remove "Available", since it is identical with the regular Presence
> > state for IM and the Desktop Session
>
> What regular presence state?
>

that's a known bug (
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/empathy/+bug/568161 )
i'll keep looking there if i have further questions..

> * remove "Offline", since it is identical to IM = OFF
>
> That would make instant messaging state more difficult to understand in
> Ubuntu than in any other OS.
>

yes, i won't argue on that, as i came to realize while making the mockups.
It is better to have all available states together in one place, if i'm
looking for completeness.
I wasn't sure whether stopping and starting services belonged into the
launcher and dash, rather than into the status indicators..
I also can't find the policy on that anymore.. perhaps someone can help?

Only the wording/syntax is misleading, because it could easily be confused
with sending networking offline.
Someone who knows for sure that he/she is manipulatin IM Presence controls
will know which "offline" exactly is meant here.
The term "offline" as is might scare users away from ever touching anything
within this whole menu, that's why i've been trying to model my way around
the raw inclusion of this item..
Apart from that, i'm still uncertain whether to consider "offline" aka
"logged out" aka "disconnected from chat" as User availability status,
presence status or as both..


> > * allow checking and unchecking Away OR Busy
> > * make "Invisible" an extra checkbox, orthogonal to the other Presence
> > controls. [perhaps rename to "visible"]
>
> What use would that be? What's the useful distinction between Invisible
> + Available and Invisible + Away?
>

Whether i'm visible is orthogonal to whether i'm available or not.
This again is only relevant, if Presence is honored by the local system. If
not so, e.g. if the screensaver or update-manager can kick in, regardless if
i'm set to busy, not available or do not disturb, these distinctions are of
no value, as you already seem to indicate.

> This is why i mentioned invisible in the first place.
> > For those who want to appear as "busy" or "do 

Re: [Ayatana] Desktop Silent Mode

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 17:34, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> [...] User availability status, presence status or as both..
>

 User Availability Status vs Service Status, is what i meant here
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Re: [Ayatana] Evolution indicator

[Jeremy Nickurak]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 02:27, Paul Sladen  wrote:

> How would this work with Hotmail/Gmail?  These mail clients are highly
> popular but there's going to need to be some cunning level of
> integration to have that experience "just work".
>

Very important case that's largely unaddressed right now. Should you run
evolution or thunderbird just to get these notifications? Is there a better
indicator-only reader that will probably address these cases?

Jeremy: were you originally referring to the workflow where (eg. after
> your morning login) *no applications have yet been started*, but you'd
> still like to see a notification that there are "10 messages and 147
> spams" that have arrived overnight?  ---Prompting you to then start
> the mail client itself?
>

That's a big one for me.

My feeling is the root cause of this is closely tied to the missing UI for
deciding what is and isn't in the messaging menu (currently managed by a
config file in ~/.local/indicators/messaging/blacklist, or something
similarly obscure :) ). There's similarly a missing UI for deciding which of
these things should be a part of the sign-on session. If evolution (or a
notification-only client) could be naturally be a part of the session
startup, living in the indicator, and not going away when the client windows
are closed, we'd be a lot better off. Addressing sessions XOR window-closing
will probably just further confuse the issue (making it look more like it's
doing what's expected, but not actually doing so).

-- 
Jeremy Nickurak -= Email/XMPP: -= jer...@nickurak.ca =-
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Re: [Ayatana] Windicators

[Carl Simpson]

2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth 

>
> When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any
> app-indicators.
>
>
Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume
control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea,
since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or
confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised?

If that is the case, then as a side note: I get the sense that
per-application volume control is something that people generally think that
they want- is there any plan for that sort of thing?
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Re: [Ayatana] Contributions?

[Carsten Agger]

tir, 04 01 2011 kl. 01:18 +, skrev Mark Shuttleworth:


> Well, multi-cultural testing is really valuable, as sometimes people
> react quite differently to an icon, or expect to find things in a very
> different place, based on cultural patterns.
> 
> What really matters to *us* is your write-up of the findings. So for
> example, if you decided to test "how easily a new user can move photos
> from their camera to facebook", you could write up the findings in
> English even if the video itself was folks chatting in Danish.

That sounds very sensible. Alas, due to a broken leg I've not been able
to follow up on this yet, but I expect us to discuss the feedback as to
how we can help and get started as soon as possible, February or early
March, I should think.

regards,
Carsten



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Re: [Ayatana] Windicators

[Carl Simpson]

To clarify, I mean people tend to want that somewhere in the
front-and-centre interface; I'm aware that it's there in
gnome-volume-control.

2011/1/4 Carl Simpson 

> 2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth 
>
>
>> When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any
>> app-indicators.
>>
>>
> Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume
> control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea,
> since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or
> confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised?
>
> If that is the case, then as a side note: I get the sense that
> per-application volume control is something that people generally think that
> they want- is there any plan for that sort of thing?
>
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Re: [Ayatana] New ideas for light themes

[A. Casco]

El mar, 04-01-2011 a las 00:04 +, Mark Shuttleworth escribió:

> Yes, this is filed as a bug. The controls-in-menubar and
> controls-in-window-titlebar should be styled exactly the same.
> 
> Mark
> 

Hi there, well today I've been reading about a elementary modd theme NO
official called Borderless Elementary... the modd is on the metacity and
have no borders...

The windows have no borders and look like this:



That is the left down corner of my terminal app..

More details:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1QSDkzYY2vc/TSLr3ZAIvaI/Ckw/VVW6B4R6HZs/borderless-elementary.png

I think that can be a very elegant modd for light themes, don't you?
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Re: [Ayatana] Windicators

[appi2...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Carl Simpson  wrote:

> Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume
> control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea,
> since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or
> confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised?
>

I also raised this concern in an old post. Since these kinds of functions
are basically the essence of windicators (I may be wrong), we need to solve
this problem before they are implemented. Basically, what I suggested is to
have basic categories for windicators, such as volume, network, progress,
etc. Each category would have a corresponding panel indicator for it. This
panel indicator would show the status of all windows using that indicator.
For volume windicators, the sound menu would be the panel counterpart.
Therefore, each window (unmaximized) would show its volume in a windicator,
and the sound menu would show the volumes of all the windows. Therefore, by
removing windicators on maximization, no functionality is lost.

This set up also allows a user to see an overview of what's going on with
applications - "What processes are going on - with which programs?" "What is
playing that sound behind my youtube video?" etc.
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Re: [Ayatana] New ideas for light themes

[A. Casco]

El mar, 04-01-2011 a las 21:37 +0100, András Bognár escribió:

> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> There is a bugreport about
> that: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/681506

Hi, thanks for that link... It's great to see it.. I think could be a
very good modd! ;)

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Re: [Ayatana] New ideas for light themes

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

now that's just.. Beautiful!
thanks for the link

On 2011-01-04, Martín A. Casco  wrote:
> El mar, 04-01-2011 a las 00:04 +, Mark Shuttleworth escribió:
>
>> Yes, this is filed as a bug. The controls-in-menubar and
>> controls-in-window-titlebar should be styled exactly the same.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> Hi there, well today I've been reading about a elementary modd theme NO
> official called Borderless Elementary... the modd is on the metacity and
> have no borders...
>
> The windows have no borders and look like this:
>
>
>
> That is the left down corner of my terminal app..
>
> More details:
>
> http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1QSDkzYY2vc/TSLr3ZAIvaI/Ckw/VVW6B4R6HZs/borderless-elementary.png
>
> I think that can be a very elegant modd for light themes, don't you?
>

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Re: [Ayatana] Evolution indicator

[Ted Gould]

On Tue, 2011-01-04 at 11:36 -0700, Jeremy Nickurak wrote:

> My feeling is the root cause of this is closely tied to the missing UI
> for deciding what is and isn't in the messaging menu (currently
> managed by a config file in ~/.local/indicators/messaging/blacklist,
> or something similarly obscure :) ). There's similarly a missing UI
> for deciding which of these things should be a part of the sign-on
> session. If evolution (or a notification-only client) could be
> naturally be a part of the session startup, living in the indicator,
> and not going away when the client windows are closed, we'd be a lot
> better off. Addressing sessions XOR window-closing will probably just
> further confuse the issue (making it look more like it's doing what's
> expected, but not actually doing so).

The idea from the UI-size of things is that individual application's
preferences should have a configuration item for whether they are shown
in the messaging menu or not.  It does have the problem of needing run
the application to remove it, but it is a more natural place to look for
changing how the application behaves.  In general, the messaging menu is
a only a place to gather what data applications want to display.

I think that there is probably some room for a TweakUI type tool that
would allow for fine-grained configuration of the messaging menu.  Not
shipped by default but for people who'd like more detailed control.

Just FYI, the configuration is slightly different than you described (I
realize you weren't going for accuracy, but for the archive):
http://askubuntu.com/questions/3832/how-to-remove-envelope-from-indicator-applet-without-uninstalling-the-indicator-m/15616#15616

--Ted



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Re: [Ayatana] Evolution indicator

[Jeremy Nickurak]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 21:53, Ted Gould  wrote:

> Just FYI, the configuration is slightly different than you described (I
> realize you weren't going for accuracy, but for the archive):
>
> http://askubuntu.com/questions/3832/how-to-remove-envelope-from-indicator-applet-without-uninstalling-the-indicator-m/15616#15616


Thanks Ted, I knew somebody would fill that in :)

So would you also expect that individual applications should manage their
presence in the saved session as well? Then also their
running-but-minimized-to-the-indicator-somehow status?


-- 
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