Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
Okay, two new Mockups. The First One removes the Bottom Bar in Favor of a Chrome-Style Notice for the File Selection: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1890515/FileSelectionMockupBottomNotice.png The Second One uses a Top Notice for File Selection, also it gives a little clue on how the hovered Icons would look like without a Border like suggested by Luke (it doesn't QUITE look like the actual Hover but you get the Idea): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1890515/FileSelectionMockupTopNotice.png I admit the Notices aren't really visually appealing, i just slapped em on there so we get an Idea of what it might feel like working with them. Would you prefer the Notice to have a Attention-demanding color itself? Or maybe just the Icon? What do you say? I moved the ThumbnailSize Slider to the Top, it's not really beautiful but it makes sense to have it there since its inline with the other "View" Functions. Im thinking about ways to integrate it better visually, but hey, it's just a Mockup ;) -- Why don't you start at the beginning? Yes, and when you reach the end... Stop. twitter.com/cldx3000 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
I forgot to add something, sure we could use a Windicator for Selected Files, but i think we still should deliver something like the Notice in the Mockups, the Notice's only purpose is to cancel the Selection anyways, so its just a quick click if you mess up your Selection or change your mind. The Windicator on the other Hand could hold a whole Array of Functions and might look something like this: O <--click* --- 3 Folder selected (78 Objects) 497 MB total -Archive these Files -Encrypt these Files -Synch to U1 -Synch to Dropbox -Copy to Location -Move to Location -Send to.. I hope i didn`t get something fundamentally wrong about the Windicators, if so, please enlighten me ^^. 2010/5/21 Joern Konopka > Okay, two new Mockups. > > The First One removes the Bottom Bar in Favor of a Chrome-Style Notice for > the File Selection: > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1890515/FileSelectionMockupBottomNotice.png > > The Second One uses a Top Notice for File Selection, also it gives a little > clue on how the hovered Icons would look like without a Border like > suggested by Luke (it doesn't QUITE look like the actual Hover but you get > the Idea): > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1890515/FileSelectionMockupTopNotice.png > > I admit the Notices aren't really visually appealing, i just slapped em on > there so we get an Idea of what it might feel like working with them. > Would you prefer the Notice to have a Attention-demanding color itself? Or > maybe just the Icon? What do you say? > > I moved the ThumbnailSize Slider to the Top, it's not really beautiful but > it makes sense to have it there since its inline with the other "View" > Functions. Im thinking about ways to integrate it better visually, but hey, > it's just a Mockup ;) > > -- > Why don't you start at the beginning? Yes, and when you reach the end... > Stop. > twitter.com/cldx3000 > -- Why don't you start at the beginning? Yes, and when you reach the end... Stop. twitter.com/cldx3000 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
Dear all, I think there is a inconsistency in the indicator menu and a inconsistency with the rest of the gui. 1. If I want launch Empathy or Evolution, I can click on its icon in the message menu. But other application are in the standard GNOME application menu. So its a bit difficult for the user to understand why some applications are in a place and other application are in another place. But this is the minor issue and I can understand that the difference is because some applications are communication software (chat, social, mail, etc). 2. If I want open Empathy because I received a message, I must click on message menu. But if I want go offline, I must use the me menu. So we have two places to control the same program. Often I click on message menu searching a button to 'turn off' Empathy after I received some messages in that menu. But the switch is in another menu, far from it. Thank you in advance for your attention. Guido. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
I think having a status message with the number of selected items at the bottom is good, because this is a result of your action. Action on top, result on bottom. A Deselect All command right next to that message makes sense because of the very close relation. You can think of this unit of message and command to be a representation of the selection. An alternative placement that would require rather large gaps between rows would be to place number/Deselect below the last row that contains a selected item. But if you then think of scrolling ... we can dismiss this idea already :} On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 10:15 +0200, Joern Konopka wrote: > The Windicator on the other Hand could hold a whole Array of Functions > and might look something like this: > > > O <--click* > --- > 3 Folder selected (78 Objects) > 497 MB total > > -Archive these Files > -Encrypt these Files > -Synch to U1 > -Synch to Dropbox > -Copy to Location > -Move to Location > -Send to.. > > > > I hope i didn`t get something fundamentally wrong about the > Windicators, if so, please enlighten me ^^. The Windicators should be about state, not actions. They can have menus, but the root is state. So "sync to somewhere" can't be a windicator, but "is this synced to somewhere / progress", containing a "Sync Now" could. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
I think Google Docs is a good reference point for single click - and one important aspect of their UI is an action bar at the top: http://blogs.georgiasouthern.edu/googleapps/files/2010/01/chb3q7hq_200drc9c7f8_b1.png This allows easy de-selection, and other actions such as renaming ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
> > > http://blogs.georgiasouthern.edu/googleapps/files/2010/01/chb3q7hq_200drc9c7f8_b1.png > > This allows easy de-selection, and other actions such as renaming > I think thats a good idea too, even though its pretty much only recreating the right-click options its very accessible to Users and could even be used on a Touchscreen (that obviously doesn't offer something like right-click). I've added the Mockups to the Wiki like suggested. Feel free to correct me if you think any explanations i gave in the wiki are not accurate enough or misleading. -- Why don't you start at the beginning? Yes, and when you reach the end... Stop. twitter.com/cldx3000 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:24 PM, David Hamm wrote: > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1890515/FileSelectionMockup1.png > surprisingly sexy. > > I want to give a +1 on single click. When this thread started I was hugely skeptical of the idea and dismissed it as absolute crap, but I decided to give the entire thread a read through and my mind was changed. I tested out single click on my machine, and it's pretty good. It needs improved but some of the ideas being talked about on this list, like what's shown in http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1890515/FileSelectionMockup1.png, address the short comings. This looks awesome! But why do we need the dismiss all button? Shouldn't just clicking into white sufficient? Having a button like that will give a lot of users the impression that that's the only way to deselect files, when really it's a kind of inefficient way. -- -- Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
Some concern has been raised about the discoverability of drag, this might be crack but what if on hover we did something like what is shown in Joern Konopk's mockup[0], but part of what appears on hover is something that resembles a window border/title bar. Users already know that they can drag their windows around their desktop by grabbing the title bar, so why not reuse that metaphor? The checkbox would be in the corner of this title bar, and it would be a safe area where misclicking wouldn't accidentally open the file. -- -- Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
On 21/05/10 09:38, guido iodice wrote: > 1. If I want launch Empathy or Evolution, I can click on its icon in > the message menu. But other application are in the standard GNOME > application menu. So its a bit difficult for the user to understand > why some applications are in a place and other application are in > another place. But this is the minor issue and I can understand that > the difference is because some applications are communication software > (chat, social, mail, etc). In Unity, we won't put Empathy in the launcher initially. We'll just have the messaging menu, where you would launch it. But if you want it in the launcher, you can put it there yourself. So the initial position is not inconsistent - it only becomes slightly inconsistent if the user wants to have direct access to Empathy in the launcher. > 2. If I want open Empathy because I received a message, I must click > on message menu. But if I want go offline, I must use the me menu. So > we have two places to control the same program. Often I click on > message menu searching a button to 'turn off' Empathy after I received > some messages in that menu. But the switch is in another menu, far > from it. Yes, this is an interesting situation. We're aware of it, and open to ideas and suggestions for how to resolve it. The current plan is to let the Me Menu mature a little further (giving you more control over the presence of multiple applications) and the Messaging Menu bake a bit (fixing bugs and growing the number of apps that use it). Then we'll consider shaking it up. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 4:38 AM, guido iodice wrote: > 2. If I want open Empathy because I received a message, I must click on > message menu. But if I want go offline, I must use the me menu. So we have > two places to control the same program. Often I click on message menu > searching a button to 'turn off' Empathy after I received some messages in > that menu. But the switch is in another menu, far from it. Maybe the two should be adjacent in the panel, so although they are two indicators, it's very easy to get from one to the other, and they appear more related. -- -- Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On 21 May 2010 11:52, Alex Launi wrote: > Some concern has been raised about the discoverability of drag, this might > be crack but what if on hover we did something like what is shown in Joern > Konopk's mockup[0], but part of what appears on hover is something that > resembles a window border/title bar. > Users already know that they can drag their windows around their desktop by > grabbing the title bar, so why not reuse that metaphor? That would create a mixed metaphor, since windows and files are entirely different objects. The preferred metaphor for dragging is the grab handle composed of parallel grey lines. Joern, your current design doesn't make clear what will happen if the user clicks the area right under the checkbox. Will that open the file or select the checkbox? Could you create a new mockup where that area includes a vertical drag handle? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
I'm not sure a drag handle is really necessary - simply clicking and dragging the file would seem the most straightforward interface, and would add less visual clutter. Again - google docs is a good exmple of this. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
2010/5/21 Mark Shuttleworth > In Unity, we won't put Empathy in the launcher initially. We'll just > have the messaging menu, where you would launch it. But if you want it > in the launcher, you can put it there yourself. So the initial position > is not inconsistent - it only becomes slightly inconsistent if the user > wants to have direct access to Empathy in the launcher. > Thank you Mark. But the issue is that there are multiple places to launch programs, in general, because some programs are in messaging menu and others are in the the GNOME Application menu (I'm talking about GNOME, not Unity, but issue is similar). But this is a minor issue. I know there is a reason: communication software are in messaging menu because its function. This is logical, even if to have two menus to launch programs (in general) is slightly strange and user may not understand why. > Yes, this is an interesting situation. We're aware of it, and open to > ideas and suggestions for how to resolve it. The current plan is to let > the Me Menu mature a little further (giving you more control over the > presence of multiple applications) and the Messaging Menu bake a bit > (fixing bugs and growing the number of apps that use it). Then we'll > consider shaking it up. > > Mark > Well, thank you. Alex Launi wrote: Maybe the two should be adjacent in the panel, so although they are two > indicators, it's very easy to get from one to the other, and they appear > more related. > This is a good idea. Part of the discomfort is the presence of calendar between the two menu. There is indicator-full applet that can help to solve. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
Folks, I don't want to pour water on your flames but... We already have mechanisms for multiple selection, with dragging to lasso a set of icons, ctrl-click to select an arbitrary set, and shift-click to continue a selection along a list. I don't see a need for the checkboxes at all. And I definitely don't like the "de-select" button, which appears to be arbitrarily placed. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On 21 May 2010 11:44, Alex Launi wrote: > This looks awesome! But why do we need the dismiss all button? Shouldn't > just clicking into white sufficient? Having a button like that will give a > lot of users the impression that that's the only way to deselect files, when > really it's a kind of inefficient way. That action is against the expected behavior of check boxes, which always remain selected after the user has clicked them. Removing a bunch of selected checks with one missclick is something that just don't happen on lists that have ckeck boxes. BTW this is why I first suggested using a "pin" icon instead of a checkbox for the selected files. The pin doesn't have that strong expectation to always remain selected unless the user deselects it. Pinned items can get unpinned all the time, so it would be more consistent with the default behavior of file selection. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
sorry - forgot to reply-all > > We already have mechanisms for multiple selection, with dragging to > lasso a set of icons, ctrl-click to select an arbitrary set, and > shift-click to continue a selection along a list. > > I don't see a need for the checkboxes at all. And I definitely don't > like the "de-select" button, which appears to be arbitrarily placed. > > ctrl and shift clicking are not easily discoverable, and rely on having a keyboard interface ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On 21 May 2010 12:28, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Folks, I don't want to pour water on your flames but... > > We already have mechanisms for multiple selection, with dragging to > lasso a set of icons, ctrl-click to select an arbitrary set, and > shift-click to continue a selection along a list. This was discussed in a previous message somewhere buried inside the list. Lasso and ctrl/shift-click are not good gestures for selection when single-click is the default mode, for several reasons: - they are not discoverable, - they are too complicated for selecting one single file (arguably the more common action in Nautilus), - and they don't work on touch-screens. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 11:25 +0100, Joe Lanman wrote: > I'm not sure a drag handle is really necessary - simply clicking and > dragging the file would seem the most straightforward interface, and > would add less visual clutter. Again - google docs is a good exmple of > this. Yes. You usually see drag handles on things that allow resizing or moving them, but that do not have drop targets. Just drag, no drop. This leads me to: how about graying out everything that is not a drop target (or highlighting everything that is a drop target), after a short delay? -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
> 1. If I want launch Empathy or Evolution, I can click on its icon in > the message menu. But other application are in the standard GNOME > application menu. So its a bit difficult for the user to understand > why some applications are in a place and other application are in > another place. But this is the minor issue and I can understand that > the difference is because some applications are communication software > (chat, social, mail, etc). > 2. If I want open Empathy because I received a message, I must click > on message menu. But if I want go offline, I must use the me menu. So > we have two places to control the same program. Often I click on > message menu searching a button to 'turn off' Empathy after I received > some messages in that menu. But the switch is in another menu, far > from it. My two cents: I'm not particularly bothered by neither of those. I think the problem is that your thinking is application-based, while the indicators are functionality-based. The messaging menu is a place of receiving and sending messages. For receiving messages, you call the adequate window of the adequate app. Whether the app is already open or not should be irrelevant. So it's not that the messaging menu is "another launcher", it is a place for interacting with messaging apps, and this simply, incidentally, happens to imply launching them first if necessary [*]. The me menu is a place for controlling your social status. Whether it is on Empathy, Pidgin or Gwibber should be irrelevant [**]. You are fighting against muscle memory, from the time when you used the tray icon, and interpreting your actions as "two Empathy actions" (which are related and belong to the same menu) instead of "one messaging action" and "one social status action" (which are not necessarily related and not necessarily belong to the same menu). I change my status much more than I message, and a lot of people I know who do the exact opposite. The two sets of actions are usually very asymmetric, and the separation makes sense to me. [*] Of course, the experience is not completely smooth due to issues like startup time, but we should help ironing those out instead of working around them by giving up on ideas that make sense :) [**] Generally speaking, the concept of status itself is something that goes beyond instant messaging. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
> I want to give a +1 on single click. When this thread started I was > hugely skeptical of the idea and dismissed it as absolute crap, but I > decided to give the entire thread a read through and my mind was > changed. I tested out single click on my machine, and it's pretty > good. It needs improved but some of the ideas being talked about on > this list, like what's shown in > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1890515/FileSelectionMockup1.png, address the > short comings. Count me in as well. The kick in the nuts Thorsten gave me some time ago hurt my feelings at first, but ultimately convinced me to stop just talking and giving it a serious chance. Considering my experience, the fact that the touchscreen fever is getting stronger and stronger each day (thanks, Steve), and the beauty of the mockups, I'm now sold. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On 21 May 2010 12:13, Diego Moya wrote: > Joern, your current design doesn't make clear what will happen if the > user clicks the area right under the checkbox. Will that open the file > or select the checkbox? Could you create a new mockup where that area > includes a vertical drag handle? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/DoubleClick?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=FileSelectionMockupBottomNotice-3.PNG I've subverted the beautiful mockup created by Joern to show my idea. The design doesn't include a checkbox, just the drag handle. Clicking on the handle would select or unselect the current file, and selected files are shown as usual. The "open file" and "select file" are clearly separated, and the design is finger-friendly. The "click handle to select" is less discoverable than it would with a checkbox, though. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
How do you drag multiple files? -- -- Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
Select multiple files, then drag? This is no different in single click mode. On 21 May 2010 13:34, Alex Launi wrote: > How do you drag multiple files? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 13:25, Diego Moya wrote: > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/DoubleClick?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=FileSelectionMockupBottomNotice-3.PNG > > I've subverted the beautiful mockup created by Joern to show my idea. > The design doesn't include a checkbox, just the drag handle. > > Clicking on the handle would select or unselect the current file, and > selected files are shown as usual. The "open file" and "select file" > are clearly separated, and the design is finger-friendly. The "click > handle to select" is less discoverable than it would with a checkbox, > though. Maybe the bottom part of the handle could just show a checkbox. The entire handle is still a target, but the checkbox is just for discovery. Plus, you could keep the checked boxes in the other selected files, to make it clearer that they will also be dragged if you drag the handle. -- Remco ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
2010/5/21 Conscious User > > My two cents: I'm not particularly bothered by neither of those. I > think the problem is that your thinking is application-based, while > the indicators are functionality-based. > Yes I know. But if I receive annoying messages from a place, I would stop them from the same place. This is the main point. I would control all messaging function from a menu, not two or more. Going offline or online is part of messaging. At the same time, I receive messages from messaging menu, but I can send messages by MeMenu. It is confusing. IMHO there are no logical reasons for this behavior. p.s. the two-place-for-launching issue is incidental. :) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
Okay, that was quite some input right now, i ran some loops in my brain and just thought "We need to make this simpler" So lets look at our targets again: - We want to be able to select multiple or single files conveniently - We dont wan't it to conflict with dragging a file - We don't want any extra "Select" Modes - We wouldn't mind having the same functionality working for both Touch and Mouse Devices - We want to preserve the classic stuff like using Strg + Click for selecting files - We don't want arbitrary Buttons (or too many Buttons spread all over the Place in general) What about a Delay? -Clicking opens the file as usual -Click and Hold will select the File after a Timeout of 250 ms -Double-Click! Since its "disabled" in Single-Click Mode it could be used to select files too, that would make more sense than having it open files twice (which makes a really bad impression with the User) Benefits: -Clicking any empty Area works like usual -Strg + Click works as usual -Dragging multiple files works as usual -It works on Touch and Mouse Devices -Advanced Users will automatically adapt the Strg + Click if Click n' Hold takes them too long and a lot of files will have to be selected -Novice Users will accept a small delay of 250 ms -We have several ways for the User to discover the functionality (Double-click AND Hold) -No arbitrary buttons needed -No checkboxes needed Emphasizing? Its self-explanatory, if the User looks for a way to select a File (in case hes doing it the first time), he'll have noticed single-click isn't the way to do it, he'll try double-click (works!) or holding the File (works!), if he starts dragging the File he'll notice it got visually accented by the "Frame" around it after the delay, dropping it back to where he took it from will keep the File selected, dropping it into a white area will deselect it. Conflict with Dragging a File? We have a minimum distance for dragging Files anyways. So if that distance is not crossed the File will gracefully fall back to being selected and can be deselected by clicking into the Void or another File like usual. -- Why don't you start at the beginning? Yes, and when you reach the end... Stop. twitter.com/cldx3000 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 13:53 +0200, Joern Konopka wrote: > -Clicking opens the file as usual > -Click and Hold will select the File after a Timeout of 250 ms > -Double-Click! Since its "disabled" in Single-Click Mode it could be > used to select files too, that would make more sense than having it > open files twice (which makes a really bad impression with the User) Be careful, click usually means button down and up without movement (exceeding some threshold) in between. To allow dragging, Open can't happen before button-up. With single-click-to-activate, Open has to happen on the first button-up without prior dragging, so you can't double-click without triggering that. Except if you add a delay before you interpret the gesture. That would likely make the interface feel sluggish and things are complicated enough with just separate treatment of button up and down and drag threshold. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
> Yes I know. But if I receive annoying messages from a place, I would > stop them from the same place. This is the main point. > I would control all messaging function from a menu, not two or more. > Going offline or online is part of messaging. Part of messagING, as in "using an instant messenger", but not part of messagES, as in "an usual action when sending or receiving messages". The Message Menu deals with messagES. If you are receiving annoying messages, and changing your status stops them, then you were in the wrong status to begin with. :) And after solving the problem by changing the status, from then on you would be left with status changing functions in the message menu that you would not use the majority of time. For every message you receive from then on, you would see those functions there, cluttering the interface, without needing them. I can understand your use case, but I'm having trouble not considering it a corner one. > At the same time, I receive messages from messaging menu, but I can > send messages by MeMenu. It is confusing. > IMHO there are no logical reasons for this behavior. >From the messaging menu, you receive messages from specific senders. >From the me menu, you do not send instant messages. You send broadcasts, which are *status updates* on your life or thoughts, with no specific recipient. You don't have to agree with the reasons and I myself do not consider them perfect, but assuming that they don't exist is wrong, and a little bit rude considering you could've tried asking for them before simply assuming it is a deliberately overlooked inconsistency. :) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
How are you planning on allowing users to control click on touchscreens with no keyboard? On May 21, 2010, at 3:28 AM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Folks, I don't want to pour water on your flames but... > > We already have mechanisms for multiple selection, with dragging to > lasso a set of icons, ctrl-click to select an arbitrary set, and > shift-click to continue a selection along a list. > > I don't see a need for the checkboxes at all. And I definitely don't > like the "de-select" button, which appears to be arbitrarily placed. > > Mark > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
2010/5/21 Conscious User
>
> Part of messagING, as in "using an instant messenger", but not
> part of messagES, as in "an usual action when sending or
> receiving messages". The Message Menu deals with messagES.
The name is *Messaging Menu*: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu/
So I think you partly misunderstood its function.
> I can understand your use case, but I'm having trouble not
> considering it a corner one.
Corner cases concern less used functions, or infrequent combinations of more
used functions.
I'm talking about well-known functions and most usual combinations of them.
Moreover, all other interfaces similar to Ubuntu indicator (like dock in Mac
OS X) work with the behavior that I will.
There is a reason, I think. The reason is usability and simplicity. Users
expect this, IMHO.
> >From the messaging menu, you receive messages from specific
> senders.
>From Messaging Menu, you can receive broadcast messages.
I cite:
*
*
*Recommended behavior for feed readers and microblogging clients*
A feed reader or microblogging client should register itself when you add
any feeds or accounts, and unregister itself when you remove the last feed
or account. It should also provide a “Show {Name of Program} in the
messaging menu” checkbox in its settings.
*For the purpose of the messaging menu, a new message is an unread item that
the program discovered since the last tim*e you (a) performed any action in
the program or (b) selected the corresponding item in the messaging
menu. *Whether
an item is important enough to include in the messaging menu may be
configurable within the program.*
A feed reader should provide one message source item for each feed that
contains new messages. A microblogging client should provide one message
source item for each account that contains new messages. (It should do this
for all relevant feeds or accounts even though a maximum of six will be
shown, because that maximum may change in the future.)"
Messaging Menu was designed for purposes *wider* than those that you
mentioned.
I can *receive* a personal or broadcast message from the Messaging Menu, and
I can *send* a broadcast message from MeMenu.
To assign MeMenu to broadcasts and Messaging Menu to 1-to-1 messages is *not
* in specifications.
Moreover: there is a very slight difference between broadcasts and 1-to-1
messages. Pretty each 1-to-1 instant messenger has a broadcast function
(status, presence) and each social network has 1-to-1 chat. So I think
astrong separation isn't in the minds of users, even in the mind of
facebook/twitter/identi.ca/msn/jabber/sip developers and even less in the
specification of Ubuntu indicators.
> You don't have to agree with the reasons and I myself do not
> consider them perfect, but assuming that they don't exist
> is wrong, and a little bit rude considering you could've
> tried asking for them before simply assuming it is a
> deliberately overlooked inconsistency. :)
>
You see, Mark admits the (partial) inconsistency and Mark know well what is
MeMenu and Messaging Menu.
Frankly, you have a your own idea of them, that is slighty different from
specifications.
I assume specifications exist and I read them.
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Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 14:44, Conscious User wrote: > If you are receiving annoying messages, and changing your status > stops them, then you were in the wrong status to begin with. :) Why is half of the Me Menu made up of preference setting links? Can't we put those somewhere else and link them with a single entry?? This is a major outch to me. The GNOME Apps menu is so not consistent with the category indicators, i guess we all know that. This is something worth tackling, perhaps starting with cleaning up the Preferences menu for example. It doesn't fit on my netbook screen, scrolling doesn't work properly either. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
long press should be reserved for menu's ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
> > Part of messagING, as in "using an instant messenger", but not
> > part of messagES, as in "an usual action when sending or
> > receiving messages". The Message Menu deals with messagES.
>
> The name is Messaging Menu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu/
> So I think you partly misunderstood its function.
Oh, I didn't have the intention to imply "if it's in the name,
it's how it is". I just used the ING vs. ES difference to
emphasize my point. It was kinda useless and came out wrong,
sorry, ignore it. :)
The important part was the part actually the part in quotes.
(using instant messenger vs. dealing with messages)
> Corner cases concern less used functions, or infrequent combinations
> of more used functions.
> I'm talking about well-known functions and most usual combinations of
> them.
The combination thing is more or less my point: changing status is
common, and responding to messages is common, what I don't think
it's common is doing *both* as a reaction to a message (the
"annoying message" scenario you brought up).
> Moreover, all other interfaces similar to Ubuntu indicator (like dock
> in Mac OS X) work with the behavior that I will.
> There is a reason, I think. The reason is usability and simplicity.
> Users expect this, IMHO.
But they do this under a application-oriented intention...
> From Messaging Menu, you can receive broadcast messages.
(..)
> I can receive a personal or broadcast message from the Messaging Menu,
> and I can send a broadcast message from MeMenu.
A behavior I don't particularly agree with. I agree with
receiving broadcasts in the messaging menu, but only if
they are directed at you (thus, messages).
I actually wanted to discuss this with the Gwibber
developers, because it seems particularly fuzzy. For
example, a broadcast is not considered important
enough to change the messaging menu icon.
> I cite:
>
> Recommended behavior for feed readers and microblogging clients
>
> A feed reader or microblogging client should register itself when you
> add any feeds or accounts, and unregister itself when you remove the
> last feed or account. It should also provide a “Show {Name of Program}
> in the messaging menu” checkbox in its settings.
>
> For the purpose of the messaging menu, a new message is an unread item
> that the program discovered since the last time you (a) performed any
> action in the program or (b) selected the corresponding item in the
> messaging menu. Whether an item is important enough to include in the
> messaging menu may be configurable within the program.
>
> A feed reader should provide one message source item for each feed
> that contains new messages. A microblogging client should provide one
> message source item for each account that contains new messages. (It
> should do this for all relevant feeds or accounts even though a
> maximum of six will be shown, because that maximum may change in the
> future.)"
>
> Messaging Menu was designed for purposes wider than those that you
> mentioned.
And none of them include status changing, which is the core of
my point. :)
> To assign MeMenu to broadcasts and Messaging Menu to 1-to-1 messages
> is not in specifications.
You are missing my point. I never said that it was formally
in the specifications, I was just giving you the logic that
you said it didn't exist.
Re-reading my previous email, there was an epic fail in my
part in not making it clear that I wasn't defending the
developers' point of view (specially because I am not one),
but my own. My intention was disagreeing with you flat-out
saying there's no logical reason, because I see one.
Sorry for the confusion.
> Moreover: there is a very slight difference between broadcasts and
> 1-to-1 messages. Pretty each 1-to-1 instant messenger has a broadcast
> function (status, presence) and each social network has 1-to-1 chat.
> So I think a strong separation isn't in the minds of users, even in
> the mind of facebook/twitter/identi.ca/msn/jabber/sip developers and
> even less in the specification of Ubuntu indicators.
That's a very interesting point of view, because a lot of
people agree that the text field in the Me Menu should be
for IM custom status. I personally think an experiment
where it would do *both* would be very interesting.
> You see, Mark admits the (partial) inconsistency and Mark know well
> what is MeMenu and Messaging Menu.
> Frankly, you have a your own idea of them, that is slighty different
> from specifications.
>
> I assume specifications exist and I read them.
Read above, my message wasn't really about specifications,
but about the existence of a logic in my view. Yes, "my
own idea of them" was kinda the point.
And, by the way, presenting my view includes disagreeing
with Mark *and* specifications if necessary. :)
Anyway, like I stated above, too much work and too little
sleep made my previous message come out not quite as I
intended in some parts. If you felt offended by any of
them, I am sorry.
Let
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
I added Google Docs examples to the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/DoubleClick ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] memenu and appmenu
2010/5/21 Conscious User > > The combination thing is more or less my point: changing status is > common, and responding to messages is common, what I don't think > it's common is doing *both* as a reaction to a message (the > "annoying message" scenario you brought up). > Annoying messages are only an example. In the real life, I turn on/off my phone by a switch near the display. No one use his TV remote control to turn on/off his phone. This is simply, I think. > > > Moreover, all other interfaces similar to Ubuntu indicator (like dock > > in Mac OS X) work with the behavior that I will. > > There is a reason, I think. The reason is usability and simplicity. > > Users expect this, IMHO. > > But they do this under a application-oriented intention... > Messaging Menu is function-oriented, but each part of it is (partly) application oriented. So you can open contacts, see past messages, create a new message, etc. according to functions of *each application. * You can *start* to receive messages from applications through it, but you *cannot stop*. > A behavior I don't particularly agree with. I agree with > receiving broadcasts in the messaging menu, but only if > they are directed at you (thus, messages). > Well, this could be only partly reasonable because pratical reasons, not design. I think to know the number of unreaded messages from gwibber or pino should be useful and consistent. > And none of them include status changing, which is the core of > my point. :) > My point is usability. To have memenu and messaging menu nearest could be a partial solution. But a switch to stop messaging from an application should be the goal. This doesn't involve the global stautus automatically. > > Re-reading my previous email, there was an epic fail in my > part in not making it clear that I wasn't defending the > developers' point of view (specially because I am not one), > but my own. My intention was disagreeing with you flat-out > saying there's no logical reason, because I see one. > Well, I never said there are no reasons at all. But this reasons should be mixed with usability reasons and with simplicity. It isn't useful to make GUI more complex. > > Sorry for the confusion. > > > That's a very interesting point of view, because a lot of > people agree that the text field in the Me Menu should be > for IM custom status. I personally think an experiment > where it would do *both* would be very interesting. > I think this too. > And, by the way, presenting my view includes disagreeing > with Mark *and* specifications if necessary. :) > Well, it was a misunderstanding. Gospel says: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27) So I think specifications are made for users, not users for the specifications :) > > If you felt offended by any of > them, I am sorry. > Let's just have a beer and keep discussing productively. :) No problem, have a beer for me :) > (in particular, the very interesting "IMs have broadcast > functions" point you brought up is something I'd like to > focus on) > Yes, but I think this is a separated topic. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
Hello SABDFL ;) On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 12:28, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > We already have mechanisms for multiple selection, with dragging to > lasso a set of icons, ctrl-click to select an arbitrary set, and > shift-click to continue a selection along a list. Of course we have keyboard shortcuts for all sorts of operations, but can we also pull off these operations when we're in a tablet or touchpad mode? > I don't see a need for the checkboxes at all. This i can understand, since checkboxes are tiny and perhaps easy to miss, using a touchpad.. I'd suggest make their a reasonably fault tolerant. Could you elaborate a bit on why you believe that lasso-select would suffice here? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Clock Menu Redesign [was: Evolution && is: progress]
Hi Nicholas ;) On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 18:01, Nicholas Ipsen wrote: > I think it would be nice to include a weather indicator, maybe to the left > of the Clock? I certainly appreciate this functionality in the current Gnome > Clock Applet, but it would make sense to me to have them as seperate > indicators. > > Nicholas Ipsen +1 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Two suggested designs for the Sound Indicator
Op vrijdag 21-05-2010 om 08:26 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Philipp Wendler: > Am 20.05.2010 23:48, schrieb Jan Claeys: > > Op donderdag 20-05-2010 om 12:00 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Mark > > Shuttleworth: > >> We discussed auto-attenuating music when a *phone call* comes through, > >> which makes sense. But multiple music players that's up to the user > >> to handle. > > > > Can anybody give a use-case for having 2 music players *playing* at the > > same time? And I'm thinking about playing music from a music library or > > listening to on-line radio or similar, not another sound-producing > > application... > > I often use this. > One example is when looking through a folder of video files to find the > correct one or to sort them. I have rhythmbox in the background playing > my favourite music and I open each of the video files in vlc, and I > would be upset if rhythmbox stopped playing every time. Totem or VLC (or whatever you use) aren't music players taht should go into the sound-menu IMO; they are okay to quickly check out the occasional music file, but they are useless for listening to music in the background. Playing music is a background-task, looking at those video files (or audio files, for that matter) is a foreground task and thus shouldn't go into or influence the sound indicator menu. > Ok, that's not exactly "playing music from a music library or listening > to on-line radio", but where would you draw the line? I would expect > that if playing music is a reason to pause the first player, playing a > video player would be, too. No, see foreground vs. background above. Or as other people call it: a task/application vs. a service. > I wouldn't even be sure if the browser shouldn't be considered a player > in this case, too. I guess a lot of people today use online sites > (Youtube etc.) as their primary source of audio and video, so they would > wonder why this is different from playing local media. But if you add > the browser, every silly website with audio would make your player stop, > because you cannot tell whether the user wanted this website to play > sounds or not. Browsers are a problem, as there is no way for them to indicate the intention (and if websites would be given a way to indicate their intention, it would be abused by spammers from day one). I suppose the best solution is to have dedicated programs for streaming music that's supposed to be running in the background (this could be based on prism or similar for a quick solution!). > As someone else on the thread said: > If you keep it like it is, every user will understand the situation, and > will know what he needs to do if it disturbs him. After all, this is > nothing different from having a radio and a cd player playing in the > same room. > But if you do automatically disable audio applications, users will be > surprised because something happened (first player stops) that they > didn't initiate, and probably many users wouldn't notice why this > happened. You would need to add controls to disable this behaviour for > now, and globally. > > So I'm strongly against this. As outlined above: this would *NOT* influence all audio-producing applications, only those that register themselves as background tasks, or services, or whatever you want to call them. I'm pretty sure there would be problems in the beginning when implementing something like this. E.g. programs implementing both paradigms might have some work to implement the difference in their code. But it could become very convenient once we get things right... -- Jan Claeys ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Two suggested designs for the Sound Indicator
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 01:11, Jan Claeys wrote: >> I wouldn't even be sure if the browser shouldn't be considered a player >> in this case, too. I guess a lot of people today use online sites >> (Youtube etc.) as their primary source of audio and video, so they would >> wonder why this is different from playing local media. But if you add >> the browser, every silly website with audio would make your player stop, >> because you cannot tell whether the user wanted this website to play >> sounds or not. > > Browsers are a problem, as there is no way for them to indicate the > intention (and if websites would be given a way to indicate their > intention, it would be abused by spammers from day one). I suppose the > best solution is to have dedicated programs for streaming music that's > supposed to be running in the background (this could be based on prism > or similar for a quick solution!). i strongly recommend looking back into Epiphany as a lightweight default installation candidate.. Our problems with browser integration would disappear instantly, if we focused this client. Especially streaming music and video in the browser could be well integrated into pulse that way.. like "click to open in totem" for example, totem has a way with .flv that makes a lot of browser trouble disappear in an instant.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
