Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 22/04/10 21:26, Martin Owens wrote:
> Hello Mark,
>
> On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 08:49 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
>   
>> It's a good point. The workspaces experience has languished, and I'd
>> like for us to climb in and improve it substantially. At the moment,
>> we
>> do a half-hearted job - we ship what's there but as you say, only
>> configure two workspaces. I'd be inclined to say "ship without
>> workspaces" so that we are at least definitive about the position for
>> the moment. 
>> 
> We've got to be careful about removing things, if we want development
> and ideas to flow around these concepts for future awesomeness, then
> removing them will only increase the barrier between being a passive
> user and becoming an active participent sharing ideas and code.
>
> It's a little hard to participate in something when you don't know it
> exists and there is plenty of examples of great plugins for various
> apps, gnome, inkscape, etc that don't receive any attention at all until
> they've gone upstream and become available to use by a wider audience.
>   

Workspaces have existed in (basically) their current state for the
entire duration that I've been watching, which is a long time, and have
not attracted much in the way of innovation or excitement.

Taking them out might actually spur someone to action ;-)



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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 22/04/10 21:46, Jim Rorie wrote:
>
>> Jim Rorie wrote on 22/04/10 01:42:
>> 
>>> I have been silent on the update manager issue in the hopes that a sane
>>> solution would present itself.  It hasn't.  Now you are forcing our
>>> hand. So I submit.  What do you intend to do to resolve that fact that
>>> the update manager pops down on the desktop like the old X-10 web ads
>>> that we all utterly despised? :/
>>> ...
>>>   
>> Primarily, simplifying the alert.
>> 
>> 
> But you are still talking about interrupting work flow or confusing the
> user with a with a pop-down that they didn't initiate.

Only in the following cases:

1. There is *a critical security update* that they really should
install. There are few things that are worth interrupting someone's
daily routine for, but this is one of them.

2. There are general updates that have been waiting for a reasonably
long time to be installed.


>   Simplifying the
> dialog doesn't solve the problem.  The asynchronous nature of the dialog
> is the crux of the problem.
>   

In this rough and tumble and highly connected world of fragile hardware
and software, stuff happens, and it happens asynchronously. Your hard
drive might be about to fail. Your machine may be vulnerable to a major
attack. Under some of those circumstances, it really is appropriate to
interrupt the user, because the consequences of them not dealing with
the issue are severe.

I appreciate the desire to defend the users flow. That's a value we
share. But being dogmatic about that won't get the best result. We
should be sparing about interruptions, so that when we do them, people
pay attention. And we should be very careful about the message we
convey, so that we minimise the interruption and maximise the chances
that people will do the right thing.

That's what MPT is arguing for. Your response is "the crux of the
problem is the asynchronous window". But you're missing the point that
the underlying condition is both serious and asynchronous.

> Plus, as I pointed out several months ago, this is a HUGE security hole.
> Passwords should only be given in response to a user initiated
> operation.  Asynchronous dialogs that ask for passwords are a very bad
> precedent for a secure O/S.
>   

Best we get those finger-swipe gadgets working, then :-)

Mark


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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[David Siegel]

Guys, this is an excellent discussion. Will someone please volunteer
to organize some of what's been said on a wiki page, or Google
Doc/Wave, or something? Otherwise these ideas will likely never escape
this thread.

David

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:41 AM, Robin Anderson  wrote:
> Here's an idea for a kind of Mac OS X Expose fullscreen (in the way Apple's
> Front Row fullscreens) way to move either windows or all windows of an
> application from workspaces. Also is probably touch-friendly. I want to get
> the general idea of moving windows/applications between workspaces by
> dragging *icons* between workspaces out there. Hopefully people get
> inspiration from this.
> Two workspaces, Firefox selected
> http://imgur.com/vZzve.png
> Four workspaces, all of them shown and set to be shown
> http://imgur.com/HBmkx.png
> Four workspaces, two shown and set to be shown, on page one, and Firefox is
> selected
> http://imgur.com/4pMsK.png
> Firefox being dragged to another workspace
> http://imgur.com/pRhzZ.png
> Notes:
> Definitely needs spacing fixed up
> I just used the most basic colors
> Dots are page markers, black dot is the current page
> Brightness up or colored at all basically means selected
> Workspace numbers or names might be good
> I hope:
> A good hotkey system would be included to bring it up and navigate.
> The placement of the close buttons at the top could be customized.
> The color of the boxes around the icons are similar to the panel colors, so
> the way icons for applications are viewed across the system are similar
> I take inspiration from these:
> http://iphonehelp.in/content/uploads/2009/04/safari-30-windows.png (mirror: http://imgur.com/3ZjhY.png
> )
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/totalaldo/4505453992/sizes/o/ (mirror: http://imgur.com/KMvwm.png
> )
> http://davidhayden.com/photos/AppleSpaces.jpg (mirror: http://imgur.com/dYYMz.jpg
> )
> Videos of Apple Spaces on YouTube
> Apple Spaces really looks pretty nice, I've never used them though. There
> are a lot of videos on YouTube showing ways to interact with them. I'm just
> not sure how to get people to start using them unless they're automatically
> activated or used somehow. But what kind of initial setup would be good for
> what applications to open in certain workspaces? What names should default
> workspace have?
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Robin Anderson  wrote:
>>
>> I think a distinction should be made between what would work well on
>> desktops and what would work well on netbooks. Using only maximized windows
>> on a 24in screen for example doesn't sound like something people would be
>> into.
>> As screen size gets bigger I see window management going more towards easy
>> window placement, the way something like Bluetile does perhaps. I think
>> users would want to easily 'dock' windows to take up something like a corner
>> of the screen rather than going between workspaces to interact with multiple
>> windows.
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 10:27 +0200, Conscious User wrote:

> > I'd welcome a discussion about how we could make workspaces *great*. If
> > we can do that, then we would make more of them. And your contribution
> > above is a useful start: great workspaces give you easy access to some
> > apps regardless of the workspace you happen to be in.
> 
> I'd love that discussion too. :)


What are workspaces about?

Broadly they are about controlling the visibility of windows. As such
they are related to other means of doing so:
- Z-order control / stacking (one window is in front)
- Minimization (panel entry or miniature)
- Rolling up (hide all but the titlebar)
- Tabs


In this context, what is their defining characteristic?

The ability to show a set of windows, while hiding all other sets with a
single action (a set can be a single window).


What are the issues with workspaces?

- They are an additional and not strictly necessary concept.
- Accidental use when not being familiar with the concept already, can
look like windows suddenly disappeared, along with the the work you just
did.
- With bad implementations, new windows will appear on the current
workspace (dialogs or main windows of applications started while being
on another workspace).
- It can become hard to find a window. Especially with the combination
of workspaces and minimization within each one.
- Moving windows between workspaces is work!
- The organization of windows into sets without overlap seems to be too
rigid in some cases. The presence of either "Always on Visible
Workspace" or "Visible on All Workspaces" is evidence of this.
- Traditionally, their number is fixed, independent of current needs
(GNOME Shell makes that dynamic, though a fixed numbers is of advantage
regarding shortcuts).


Are there alternatives to workspaces?

Groups of windows. With or without overlap in the grouping.


Questions in the larger context of window management

- Is it really beneficial to always represent windows on a panel? How
about only having minimized windows listed there?
- Could minimization be done away with, to rely on a workspace or group
for hiding windows instead?
- Doesn't the Show-Desktop feature indicate a problem with the special
role of the Desktop (and its use as a place for icons)?
- Could closing windows be done away with, to rely on some kind of stack
to hide and then forgetting or recovering them, instead?
- Should workspaces be treated like tabs?
- Should tabbing happen on a window manager level, instead or in
addition to tabbing inside applications?
- Is click-to-focus really the best focus mode? If it is, what's the
right answer to the click-through-or-not question caused by it?


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/


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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Vishnoo]

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 15:53 +0200, Conscious User wrote:
> > That's true, we haven't done as good a job of communication in the past
> > as we could have. But we're working on improving it. For this issue
> > yesterday there were posts on design.canonical.com,
> > markshuttleworth.com, this mailing list, Twitter, and Identica.
> 
> And I thank you and Mark for those, I'm glad to finally have a more or
> less "central" reference to point people to when they ask me what the
> indicators are all about. :)
> 
> > I'm not sure where would be an appropriate place on the Forums to start
> > the conversation as well. Do you have a suggestion?
> 
> The problem is that the issue is not restricted to the forums. Fact is,
> right now a new user has no way of figuring out the functionality of
> the indicators without Googling. I think users need a "getting started"
> tutorial. The installation slideshow is great but its time is limited
> and there is a limit on what can be explained through text and static
> images.
> 
> What would be *great* is a nice *video* screencast introduction. Time
> and technical requirements aside, it would be awesome if there was a
> professional video with Mark himself or 
> popping up in the middle of a Ubuntu Desktop, pointing and explaining
> specific features. :)
> 
Hrm. whaaat.. 
Design Communication is essential for the developer community, and for
the designers to layout the future plans , to co-ordinate the design
implementation. This part is improving and the design team's blog is the
start of such improvements.

This should not be of concern for the end-user. This
explaining-my-design-to-user communication should not be a priority for
the design team. Such communications are of little value to the
end-user, user should never have to read a manual to use the indicators.

If the design is so bad it needs someone to explain it first , it is a
design /failure/ .
We should learn what went wrong and improve it , rather than try to
explain why the functionality is limited or behaving weirdly.

If there are such problems of users misunderstanding the indicators and
resorting to google , it is better to file bugs or bring them to the
notice of this mailing list rather than insisting on the designers to
explain it to the user.

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 10:14 +0100, David Siegel wrote:
> Guys, this is an excellent discussion. Will someone please volunteer
> to organize some of what's been said on a wiki page, or Google
> Doc/Wave, or something? Otherwise these ideas will likely never escape
> this thread.
> 
> David
> 
There you go :
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Workspaces/Concepts

GoogleWave is pretty much a similar to mailing lists , difficult to
navigate once it grows and tedious to keep track. Not to mention,
everyone might not have a wave account.
Wiki is better. 

Robin and others who have mocked-up the ideas.. could you attach it to
the wiki? 

-- 
Cheers,
Vish


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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Luke Benstead]

On 23 April 2010 11:10, Vishnoo  wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 10:14 +0100, David Siegel wrote:
>> Guys, this is an excellent discussion. Will someone please volunteer
>> to organize some of what's been said on a wiki page, or Google
>> Doc/Wave, or something? Otherwise these ideas will likely never escape
>> this thread.
>>
>> David
>>
> There you go :
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Workspaces/Concepts

Cool, I'm seeing if I can knock together a working implementation of
my mockup in Python. I'll upload it somewhere once it's at least
slightly working (so far it grabs the windows/apps from different
workspaces correctly, I'm just fiddling with the Gtk+ stuff to make it
visible). If I don't have time to finish I'll improve my mockup (the
existing version of which has several flaws after thinking it through)
and upload it there.

Luke.

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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Paulo J. S. Silva]

>
> Plus, as I pointed out several months ago, this is a HUGE security hole.
> Passwords should only be given in response to a user initiated
> operation.  Asynchronous dialogs that ask for passwords are a very bad
> precedent for a secure O/S.
>
>
> Best we get those finger-swipe gadgets working, then :-)
>

I beg to agree with Jim. Yes, it is a HUGE security hole waiting to be
used. As I pointed out in an older thread:

http://www.mail-archive.com/ayatana@lists.launchpad.net/msg00833.html

it is easy to spoof the update manager update dialog inside a web page
using technologies like flash that would probably look
indistinguishable to the real thing. As far as I remember most people
in the thread agreed on the possible security risk associated to the
(not so) new update manager behavior and even an interesting
discussion on allowing password-less updates from trusted repositories
was initiated.

The thread ended up in oblivion as any complains about update manager
behavior though.

best,

Paulo
-- 
Paulo José da Silva e Silva
Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação
(Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.)
Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil

e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva

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Re: [Ayatana] Tagging in Nautilus

[Diego Moya]

On 23 April 2010 06:19, Frederik Nnaji wrote:
> how about tagging files and folders in nautilus?
> i wouldn't have to move them around much anymore, if i could attach
> tags to them.
>
> imagine you don't have to move your files around physically anymore,
> you just navigate them via tagging..
>
> on a fs level that would be horrendous i suppose, perhaps somebody
> already thought of something of the sort with some type of
> meta-filesystem running within a file management service ?
>

AFAIK the Tracker [1][2] project already does this. They even have
some support for Nautilus integration [3]. Tracker is based on Nepomuk
[4], a project to create a semantic metadata back-end that supports
all kind of relational information, not just tags.


[1] http://projects.gnome.org/tracker/index.html
[2] http://live.gnome.org/Tracker/WhatIsTracker
[3] http://www.advogato.org/person/jamiemcc/diary/4.html
[4] http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/

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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Conscious User]

> Hrm. whaaat.. 
> Design Communication is essential for the developer community, and for
> the designers to layout the future plans , to co-ordinate the design
> implementation. This part is improving and the design team's blog is the
> start of such improvements.
> 
> This should not be of concern for the end-user. This
> explaining-my-design-to-user communication should not be a priority for
> the design team. Such communications are of little value to the
> end-user, user should never have to read a manual to use the indicators.
> 
> If the design is so bad it needs someone to explain it first , it is a
> design /failure/ .
> We should learn what went wrong and improve it , rather than try to
> explain why the functionality is limited or behaving weirdly.
> 
> If there are such problems of users misunderstanding the indicators and
> resorting to google , it is better to file bugs or bring them to the
> notice of this mailing list rather than insisting on the designers to
> explain it to the user.

Your points would only be valid if all the current usability problems
were caused only by design flaws. But they are also caused by incomplete
implementations.

Take the Me Menu, for example: it is supposed to have broadcasting icons
over the text field, making its purpose more evident. The current
implementation does not have that, and I have not seen *one single
person* who could deduce the purpose of the text field without help.

There is nothing to improve in the design, or bugs to file: the
designers are fully aware that the current implementation is suboptimal,
or the elements it lacks wouldn't be part of the complete specification
in the first place. But it was shipped anyway. And since it was
shipped anyway, the minimum Ubuntu should do out of respect for the
user who's being explicitly exposed to an incomplete implementation
is to be a little bit more helpful than expecting him to Google.



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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Roth Robert]

I have just been looking at the gnome-shell wikis, and I have found some
mockups for suggested window management. I think the idea is quite good,
could replace the workspaces. Someone has already sent a mail with a mockup
similar to these, but this is a bit more detailed... check them out.
http://live.gnome.org/GroupBasedWindowManagement

PS. maybe the other ideas on the gnome design ideas page for window
management are interesting too, I like the one mentioned above the most.
Check them out at
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/DesignerPlayground

Robert
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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Luke Benstead]

On 23 April 2010 14:17, Roth Robert  wrote:
> I have just been looking at the gnome-shell wikis, and I have found some
> mockups for suggested window management. I think the idea is quite good,
> could replace the workspaces. Someone has already sent a mail with a mockup
> similar to these, but this is a bit more detailed... check them out.
> http://live.gnome.org/GroupBasedWindowManagement

That's basically what I was saying (and implementing). Although I fail
to see what the advantage of re-ordering the groups would be, dragging
the windows between them would be enough IMO.

The other part of my idea is to merge the concepts of old style system
tray icons (e.g. one click to maximize/minimize) with pinned
application windows (e.g. those that appear on all desktops). I think
we can treat these in the same way and they can form a special "Pinned
apps" group like the ones in the mockup. This will allow to nicely
handle apps that don't support indicators, and also Wine applications
that use XEmbed. However, I'm not keen on allowing menus - I don't
wanna recreate the old notification area - so Wine compatibility still
needs some thought.

I've attached a screenshot of what I have so far. It currently only
scans the workspaces at start up (it doesn't listen for window actions
yet) and only works with Compiz disabled because Compiz treats its
multiple workspaces as one really big one which means I need to do
some programmatic trickery to determine where windows actually are.
Still, WIP.

Luke.
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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Tyler Brainerd]

The blog I made reference too will address many of the proposed
solutions here, albeit in a critical manner to root out good
solutions. I can archive the conversation in a shared google doc, with
permission from everyone involved.

On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:14 AM, David Siegel 
wrote:

> Guys, this is an excellent discussion. Will someone please volunteer
> to organize some of what's been said on a wiki page, or Google
> Doc/Wave, or something? Otherwise these ideas will likely never escape
> this thread.
>
> David
>
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:41 AM, Robin Anderson 
> wrote:
>> Here's an idea for a kind of Mac OS X Expose fullscreen (in the way
>> Apple's
>> Front Row fullscreens) way to move either windows or all windows of
>> an
>> application from workspaces. Also is probably touch-friendly. I
>> want to get
>> the general idea of moving windows/applications between workspaces by
>> dragging *icons* between workspaces out there. Hopefully people get
>> inspiration from this.
>> Two workspaces, Firefox selected
>> http://imgur.com/vZzve.png
>> Four workspaces, all of them shown and set to be shown
>> http://imgur.com/HBmkx.png
>> Four workspaces, two shown and set to be shown, on page one, and
>> Firefox is
>> selected
>> http://imgur.com/4pMsK.png
>> Firefox being dragged to another workspace
>> http://imgur.com/pRhzZ.png
>> Notes:
>> Definitely needs spacing fixed up
>> I just used the most basic colors
>> Dots are page markers, black dot is the current page
>> Brightness up or colored at all basically means selected
>> Workspace numbers or names might be good
>> I hope:
>> A good hotkey system would be included to bring it up and navigate.
>> The placement of the close buttons at the top could be customized.
>> The color of the boxes around the icons are similar to the panel
>> colors, so
>> the way icons for applications are viewed across the system are
>> similar
>> I take inspiration from these:
>> http://iphonehelp.in/content/uploads/2009/04/safari-30-windows.png
>> (mirror: http://imgur.com/3ZjhY.png
>> )
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/totalaldo/4505453992/sizes/o/ (mirror: 
>> http://imgur.com/KMvwm.png
>> )
>> http://davidhayden.com/photos/AppleSpaces.jpg (mirror: 
>> http://imgur.com/dYYMz.jpg
>> )
>> Videos of Apple Spaces on YouTube
>> Apple Spaces really looks pretty nice, I've never used them though.
>> There
>> are a lot of videos on YouTube showing ways to interact with them.
>> I'm just
>> not sure how to get people to start using them unless they're
>> automatically
>> activated or used somehow. But what kind of initial setup would be
>> good for
>> what applications to open in certain workspaces? What names should
>> default
>> workspace have?
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Robin Anderson
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I think a distinction should be made between what would work well on
>>> desktops and what would work well on netbooks. Using only
>>> maximized windows
>>> on a 24in screen for example doesn't sound like something people
>>> would be
>>> into.
>>> As screen size gets bigger I see window management going more
>>> towards easy
>>> window placement, the way something like Bluetile does perhaps. I
>>> think
>>> users would want to easily 'dock' windows to take up something
>>> like a corner
>>> of the screen rather than going between workspaces to interact
>>> with multiple
>>> windows.
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Tyler Brainerd]

On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:10 AM, Vishnoo  wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 10:14 +0100, David Siegel wrote:
>> Guys, this is an excellent discussion. Will someone please volunteer
>> to organize some of what's been said on a wiki page, or Google
>> Doc/Wave, or something? Otherwise these ideas will likely never
>> escape
>> this thread.
>>
>> David
>>
> There you go :
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Workspaces/Concepts
>
> GoogleWave is pretty much a similar to mailing lists , difficult to
> navigate once it grows and tedious to keep track. Not to mention,
> everyone might not have a wave account.
> Wiki is better.
>
> Robin and others who have mocked-up the ideas.. could you attach it to
> the wiki?
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Vish
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Tyler Brainerd]

Ignore that last blank one. Thanks for making the wiki!

On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:10 AM, Vishnoo  wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 10:14 +0100, David Siegel wrote:
>> Guys, this is an excellent discussion. Will someone please volunteer
>> to organize some of what's been said on a wiki page, or Google
>> Doc/Wave, or something? Otherwise these ideas will likely never
>> escape
>> this thread.
>>
>> David
>>
> There you go :
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Workspaces/Concepts
>
> GoogleWave is pretty much a similar to mailing lists , difficult to
> navigate once it grows and tedious to keep track. Not to mention,
> everyone might not have a wave account.
> Wiki is better.
>
> Robin and others who have mocked-up the ideas.. could you attach it to
> the wiki?
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Vish
>
>
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[Ayatana] Refining the battery status menu

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello again everyone

On the Canonical Design site, I've just posted about the design of
Ubuntu's battery status menu.


(As an experiment, I've posted the same thing on the Ubuntu Forums.
)

Some of you may have seen this specification before, but now would be an
excellent time for you to give feedback. Is there anything missing? Or
is there anything we could simplify or remove?

Thanks
- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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luIAn1HJcXv0eeM9Y5YBGaCbXEdMiyRR
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Re: [Ayatana] Refining the battery status menu

[Marc Deslauriers]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 16:17 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> On the Canonical Design site, I've just posted about the design of
> Ubuntu's battery status menu.
> 
> 
> (As an experiment, I've posted the same thing on the Ubuntu Forums.
> )
> 
> Some of you may have seen this specification before, but now would be an
> excellent time for you to give feedback. Is there anything missing? Or
> is there anything we could simplify or remove?

I like it a lot, excellent work!

If useful names for multiple batteries are not available, would it be
possible for a user to click on a name and rename it? Or possible for an
OEM to configure more meaningful names?

Marc.



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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Tyler Brainerd]

In the interest of further thought on this subject, I posted a poll in
popular blog OMG! Ubuntu just a few minutes ago. Later today I'll put
one up at the forums as well, just to try to get a feel from the
community how workspaces are used and how they could be used in the
future.

On Apr 23, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Luke Benstead  wrote:

> On 23 April 2010 14:17, Roth Robert  wrote:
>> I have just been looking at the gnome-shell wikis, and I have found
>> some
>> mockups for suggested window management. I think the idea is quite
>> good,
>> could replace the workspaces. Someone has already sent a mail with
>> a mockup
>> similar to these, but this is a bit more detailed... check them out.
>> http://live.gnome.org/GroupBasedWindowManagement
>
> That's basically what I was saying (and implementing). Although I fail
> to see what the advantage of re-ordering the groups would be, dragging
> the windows between them would be enough IMO.
>
> The other part of my idea is to merge the concepts of old style system
> tray icons (e.g. one click to maximize/minimize) with pinned
> application windows (e.g. those that appear on all desktops). I think
> we can treat these in the same way and they can form a special "Pinned
> apps" group like the ones in the mockup. This will allow to nicely
> handle apps that don't support indicators, and also Wine applications
> that use XEmbed. However, I'm not keen on allowing menus - I don't
> wanna recreate the old notification area - so Wine compatibility still
> needs some thought.
>
> I've attached a screenshot of what I have so far. It currently only
> scans the workspaces at start up (it doesn't listen for window actions
> yet) and only works with Compiz disabled because Compiz treats its
> multiple workspaces as one really big one which means I need to do
> some programmatic trickery to determine where windows actually are.
> Still, WIP.
>
> Luke.
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Tyler Brainerd]

Gah. I keep forgetting to

On Apr 23, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Luke Benstead  wrote:

> On 23 April 2010 14:17, Roth Robert  wrote:
>> I have just been looking at the gnome-shell wikis, and I have found
>> some
>> mockups for suggested window management. I think the idea is quite
>> good,
>> could replace the workspaces. Someone has already sent a mail with
>> a mockup
>> similar to these, but this is a bit more detailed... check them out.
>> http://live.gnome.org/GroupBasedWindowManagement
>
> That's basically what I was saying (and implementing). Although I fail
> to see what the advantage of re-ordering the groups would be, dragging
> the windows between them would be enough IMO.
>
> The other part of my idea is to merge the concepts of old style system
> tray icons (e.g. one click to maximize/minimize) with pinned
> application windows (e.g. those that appear on all desktops). I think
> we can treat these in the same way and they can form a special "Pinned
> apps" group like the ones in the mockup. This will allow to nicely
> handle apps that don't support indicators, and also Wine applications
> that use XEmbed. However, I'm not keen on allowing menus - I don't
> wanna recreate the old notification area - so Wine compatibility still
> needs some thought.
>
> I've attached a screenshot of what I have so far. It currently only
> scans the workspaces at start up (it doesn't listen for window actions
> yet) and only works with Compiz disabled because Compiz treats its
> multiple workspaces as one really big one which means I need to do
> some programmatic trickery to determine where windows actually are.
> Still, WIP.
>
> Luke.
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Making workspaces great (branched from "Farewell to the notification area")

[Tyler Brainerd]

Silly iPod touch keeps goofing up my email and sending before I finish.

Here's the poll:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/workspaces-and-how-we-use-them.html

On Apr 23, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Luke Benstead  wrote:

> On 23 April 2010 14:17, Roth Robert  wrote:
>> I have just been looking at the gnome-shell wikis, and I have found
>> some
>> mockups for suggested window management. I think the idea is quite
>> good,
>> could replace the workspaces. Someone has already sent a mail with
>> a mockup
>> similar to these, but this is a bit more detailed... check them out.
>> http://live.gnome.org/GroupBasedWindowManagement
>
> That's basically what I was saying (and implementing). Although I fail
> to see what the advantage of re-ordering the groups would be, dragging
> the windows between them would be enough IMO.
>
> The other part of my idea is to merge the concepts of old style system
> tray icons (e.g. one click to maximize/minimize) with pinned
> application windows (e.g. those that appear on all desktops). I think
> we can treat these in the same way and they can form a special "Pinned
> apps" group like the ones in the mockup. This will allow to nicely
> handle apps that don't support indicators, and also Wine applications
> that use XEmbed. However, I'm not keen on allowing menus - I don't
> wanna recreate the old notification area - so Wine compatibility still
> needs some thought.
>
> I've attached a screenshot of what I have so far. It currently only
> scans the workspaces at start up (it doesn't listen for window actions
> yet) and only works with Compiz disabled because Compiz treats its
> multiple workspaces as one really big one which means I need to do
> some programmatic trickery to determine where windows actually are.
> Still, WIP.
>
> Luke.
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Tagging in Nautilus

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 13:58, Diego Moya  wrote:
> On 23 April 2010 06:19, Frederik Nnaji wrote:
>> how about tagging files and folders in nautilus?
>> i wouldn't have to move them around much anymore, if i could attach
>> tags to them.
>>
>> imagine you don't have to move your files around physically anymore,
>> you just navigate them via tagging..
>>
>> on a fs level that would be horrendous i suppose, perhaps somebody
>> already thought of something of the sort with some type of
>> meta-filesystem running within a file management service ?
>>
>
> AFAIK the Tracker [1][2] project already does this. They even have
> some support for Nautilus integration [3]. Tracker is based on Nepomuk
> [4], a project to create a semantic metadata back-end that supports
> all kind of relational information, not just tags.
>
>
> [1] http://projects.gnome.org/tracker/index.html
> [2] http://live.gnome.org/Tracker/WhatIsTracker
> [3] http://www.advogato.org/person/jamiemcc/diary/4.html
> [4] http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/

thanks all!
i'll see if i can get some useful ideas from testing those concepts
already available as packages. smart and easy file management is a
major issue our "leaders" are trying to address now, so i heard.
please keep thoughts and ideas coming, unless of course anybody here
objects to the topic.

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Re: [Ayatana] Tagging in Nautilus

[Chris Coulson]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 19:54 +0200, Frederik Nnaji wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 13:58, Diego Moya  wrote:
> > On 23 April 2010 06:19, Frederik Nnaji wrote:
> >> how about tagging files and folders in nautilus?
> >> i wouldn't have to move them around much anymore, if i could attach
> >> tags to them.
> >>
> >> imagine you don't have to move your files around physically anymore,
> >> you just navigate them via tagging..
> >>
> >> on a fs level that would be horrendous i suppose, perhaps somebody
> >> already thought of something of the sort with some type of
> >> meta-filesystem running within a file management service ?
> >>
> >
> > AFAIK the Tracker [1][2] project already does this. They even have
> > some support for Nautilus integration [3]. Tracker is based on Nepomuk
> > [4], a project to create a semantic metadata back-end that supports
> > all kind of relational information, not just tags.
> >
> >
> > [1] http://projects.gnome.org/tracker/index.html
> > [2] http://live.gnome.org/Tracker/WhatIsTracker
> > [3] http://www.advogato.org/person/jamiemcc/diary/4.html
> > [4] http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/
> 
> thanks all!
> i'll see if i can get some useful ideas from testing those concepts
> already available as packages. smart and easy file management is a
> major issue our "leaders" are trying to address now, so i heard.
> please keep thoughts and ideas coming, unless of course anybody here
> objects to the topic.
> 
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Tracker already has the ability to tag files in Nautilus, but I don't
think there's a UI anywhere for navigating those just yet (you can
search from them). You can try the latest tracker for yourself by
installing it from [1]. :-)

Regards
Chris

[1] - https://edge.launchpad.net/~tracker-team/+archive/tracker


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Re: [Ayatana] Compact Menu View

[Mario Vukelic]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 11:36 -0700, Eric Pritchett wrote:
> I'd like to suggest having a Compact Menu View mode enabled by default
> for most windows/apps.  The thinking is if a user only uses the File,
> Edit, View, Help, etc 5 times out of 100 and uses the icons below it
> 95/100 times then wouldn't it be better to hide the menu?  

MS Office did this at least up to Office 2003 (dunno about 2007/2010),
and as far as I can tell it was a big failure. I know only two groups of
users: those that turn it off immediately and those who are continually
confused by it. We turn it off by default in our company (15,000 staff)
because tests indicated that the number of generated helpdesk calls
along the lines of "I know that this feature exists because I have used
it before, but for the life of me I cannot find it anymore" would be
rather large.

For proficient users it decreases the effectiveness of muscle memory. I
don't hunt for menus in the Office apps I use a lot, it all works pretty
automatic. I tried to work with this feature in Office, but every time
the menus get rearranged it makes me stumble and pause to think and
hunt. Just because I haven't used a particular feature for a few days or
weeks does not mean that I want to go hunt for it.

I do not think that computers should rearrange UI elements autonomously
until they have become much, much better at interpreting human
intentions, which I guess is a hard AI problem.

Apparently some version of XP had a "feature" to move files and
shortcuts from the desktop into a folder on the desktop, "unused items"
or some such, objecting to what MS apparently perceived as untidiness on
the user's part. It did this when the user had not interacted with the
file for x amount of time (may have been 3 months). Unfortunately it did
apparently not check whether the computer had been used at all during
this time. Sure enough, my mother - who turns her computer on once in a
blue moon - called me each time because "all my stuff is gone". Note
that she also was used to launch applications from desktop shortcuts.

Now, this is a crass example of stupidity on Microsoft's part, and one
that can easily be fixed or at least improved by taking actual computer
usage into account. However, it still serves to illustrate how easily
users freak out if their stuff is being rearranged autonomously*. 


Other opinions: 
http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=94078


Regards
Mario


* Users I know manage their files spatially, with dozens of files spread
out over two large screens. When they need one, they will know that
it's, say, in the top right corner of the right-hand screen. It looks
messy and it may not seem or even objectively be the most efficient
method, but it works for them and I must admit that it does make a
certain sense in the context of their work.



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[Ayatana] Disregard my parent post, misses the point [was: Re: Compact Menu View]

[Mario Vukelic]

Sorry, I must have dealt with Office ribbon issues too much and have
developed an allergy. My rant about auto-arrangements is beside the
point because the OP just suggested a user-switchable compact view.


On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 22:33 +0200, Mario Vukelic wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 11:36 -0700, Eric Pritchett wrote:
> > I'd like to suggest having a Compact Menu View mode enabled by default
> > for most windows/apps.  The thinking is if a user only uses the File,
> > Edit, View, Help, etc 5 times out of 100 and uses the icons below it
> > 95/100 times then wouldn't it be better to hide the menu?  
> 
> MS Office did this at least up to Office 2003 (dunno about 2007/2010),
> and as far as I can tell it was a big failure. I know only two groups of
> users: those that turn it off immediately and those who are continually
> confused by it. We turn it off by default in our company (15,000 staff)
> because tests indicated that the number of generated helpdesk calls
> along the lines of "I know that this feature exists because I have used
> it before, but for the life of me I cannot find it anymore" would be
> rather large.
> 
> For proficient users it decreases the effectiveness of muscle memory. I
> don't hunt for menus in the Office apps I use a lot, it all works pretty
> automatic. I tried to work with this feature in Office, but every time
> the menus get rearranged it makes me stumble and pause to think and
> hunt. Just because I haven't used a particular feature for a few days or
> weeks does not mean that I want to go hunt for it.
> 
> I do not think that computers should rearrange UI elements autonomously
> until they have become much, much better at interpreting human
> intentions, which I guess is a hard AI problem.
> 
> Apparently some version of XP had a "feature" to move files and
> shortcuts from the desktop into a folder on the desktop, "unused items"
> or some such, objecting to what MS apparently perceived as untidiness on
> the user's part. It did this when the user had not interacted with the
> file for x amount of time (may have been 3 months). Unfortunately it did
> apparently not check whether the computer had been used at all during
> this time. Sure enough, my mother - who turns her computer on once in a
> blue moon - called me each time because "all my stuff is gone". Note
> that she also was used to launch applications from desktop shortcuts.
> 
> Now, this is a crass example of stupidity on Microsoft's part, and one
> that can easily be fixed or at least improved by taking actual computer
> usage into account. However, it still serves to illustrate how easily
> users freak out if their stuff is being rearranged autonomously*. 
> 
> 
> Other opinions: 
> http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=94078
> 
> 
> Regards
> Mario
> 
> 
> * Users I know manage their files spatially, with dozens of files spread
> out over two large screens. When they need one, they will know that
> it's, say, in the top right corner of the right-hand screen. It looks
> messy and it may not seem or even objectively be the most efficient
> method, but it works for them and I must admit that it does make a
> certain sense in the context of their work.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] Compact Menu View

[Sohail Mirza]

How about a compact menu that is accompanied by a search bar, not dissimilar
from the Start Menu to be found in Windows Vista/7?  Navigate the menus if
you know where a command is to be found, otherwise just start typing the
name.

This could be aided by some mechanism for then informing the user where that
discovered command is to be found in the menus so that they can retrain
their muscle memory.


On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Mario Vukelic wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 11:36 -0700, Eric Pritchett wrote:
> > I'd like to suggest having a Compact Menu View mode enabled by default
> > for most windows/apps.  The thinking is if a user only uses the File,
> > Edit, View, Help, etc 5 times out of 100 and uses the icons below it
> > 95/100 times then wouldn't it be better to hide the menu?
>
> MS Office did this at least up to Office 2003 (dunno about 2007/2010),
> and as far as I can tell it was a big failure. I know only two groups of
> users: those that turn it off immediately and those who are continually
> confused by it. We turn it off by default in our company (15,000 staff)
> because tests indicated that the number of generated helpdesk calls
> along the lines of "I know that this feature exists because I have used
> it before, but for the life of me I cannot find it anymore" would be
> rather large.
>
> For proficient users it decreases the effectiveness of muscle memory. I
> don't hunt for menus in the Office apps I use a lot, it all works pretty
> automatic. I tried to work with this feature in Office, but every time
> the menus get rearranged it makes me stumble and pause to think and
> hunt. Just because I haven't used a particular feature for a few days or
> weeks does not mean that I want to go hunt for it.
>
> I do not think that computers should rearrange UI elements autonomously
> until they have become much, much better at interpreting human
> intentions, which I guess is a hard AI problem.
>
> Apparently some version of XP had a "feature" to move files and
> shortcuts from the desktop into a folder on the desktop, "unused items"
> or some such, objecting to what MS apparently perceived as untidiness on
> the user's part. It did this when the user had not interacted with the
> file for x amount of time (may have been 3 months). Unfortunately it did
> apparently not check whether the computer had been used at all during
> this time. Sure enough, my mother - who turns her computer on once in a
> blue moon - called me each time because "all my stuff is gone". Note
> that she also was used to launch applications from desktop shortcuts.
>
> Now, this is a crass example of stupidity on Microsoft's part, and one
> that can easily be fixed or at least improved by taking actual computer
> usage into account. However, it still serves to illustrate how easily
> users freak out if their stuff is being rearranged autonomously*.
>
>
> Other opinions:
>
> http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=94078
>
>
> Regards
> Mario
>
>
> * Users I know manage their files spatially, with dozens of files spread
> out over two large screens. When they need one, they will know that
> it's, say, in the top right corner of the right-hand screen. It looks
> messy and it may not seem or even objectively be the most efficient
> method, but it works for them and I must admit that it does make a
> certain sense in the context of their work.
>
>
>
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>



-- 
sfm
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Re: [Ayatana] Compact Menu View

[Manish Sinha]

On 4/24/2010 2:03 AM, Mario Vukelic wrote:

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 11:36 -0700, Eric Pritchett wrote:
   

I'd like to suggest having a Compact Menu View mode enabled by default
for most windows/apps.  The thinking is if a user only uses the File,
Edit, View, Help, etc 5 times out of 100 and uses the icons below it
95/100 times then wouldn't it be better to hide the menu?
 

MS Office did this at least up to Office 2003 (dunno about 2007/2010),
and as far as I can tell it was a big failure. I know only two groups of
users: those that turn it off immediately and those who are continually
confused by it. We turn it off by default in our company (15,000 staff)
because tests indicated that the number of generated helpdesk calls
along the lines of "I know that this feature exists because I have used
it before, but for the life of me I cannot find it anymore" would be
rather large.
   


Mario,

This compact Menu behaviour is also shown in Google Chrome. I agree 
Office made the change which made people go nuts since the work with 
Office suits is much more than a file browser.


I second this change to make Menu compact since most of the time people 
don't use it (my observation). People prefer using toolbar buttons (me 
included). This is a general trend.


--
Manish Sinha

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