Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations

[chuck]

Interesting.  Have never heard of that.  Are there dangers of the plastic 
cracking etc?
Can you do it with dry ice?  Much easier to get.  


From: fiberrun--- via AF 
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 10:15 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: fiber...@mail.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations

You can also cold clamp the fiber cable with liquid nitrogen to induce a 
temperature dependent loss event to pin point your location. No cable cutting 
needed.


Jared
  
  
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 at 6:51 PM
From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
Can you improve the accuracy by testing from both ends?



From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 12:33 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations



Still, length is not an exact science with OTDRs.  Especially if it is a long 
shot.  

Every fiber has a different index of refraction and velocity factor.  And these 
characteristics vary along the entire length of the fiber.

Then there is twist in the tube, wavering routes and slack loops etc.And 
there is also timebase accuracy, which varies with temperature...



So if you have gopher damage in the desert and the closest hand hole is 10 
miles away, you will have to dig and cut several times before you zero in on 
it.  





From: Dev 

Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 10:39 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations



We had a $300 OTDR. The only thing it didn’t do was estimate length very well 
if it worked at all. 



My friend asked how much money we’d save if we dug up the wrong lady’s yard to 
replace a fiber that wasn’t broken.



Then we bought a Viavi, waited for a show discount. Now we can dig up the right 
lady’s lawn.


 

  On Oct 31, 2024, at 8:14 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:



  Metronet :P



  On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 11:12 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

Josh, which competitor? I've seen similar things out of MetroNet.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP


 




From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 6:56:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations

I thought the same thing.  I had to cancel their service after just a week 
or two because streaming was absolutely a joke (looked to me like their peering 
was full, couldn't get any kind of capacity beyond their network).  They left 
this convenient wall plate with an APC bulkhead just sitting here...



On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 5:29 PM  wrote:

  I have always wanted to connect a source of upstream light to my 
connection at home.  (Served by a competitor).  Wonder how long it would take 
to troubleshoot.  Especially if I made it randomly intermittent and on a timer. 
 Perhaps during the first minute of the superbowl or something...?  








  From: Jason McKemie 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 3:05 PM

  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations



  I know Exfo has units with an optional PON port for connecting to a live 
on-net fiber and testing. Maybe this is more or less standard anymore, my 
current OTDR is a bit dated.

  On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Josh Luthman  
wrote:
  > IDK what you mean by PON features unless you want an inline unit to 
watch the traffic.  Veex just came out with one that will do that.  I don't see 
the need, but it is cool.
  > We bought the one (or one like) Cassidy linked and then bought this 
second:
  > 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CW3B9ZM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  >
  > Cassidy - get a super cheap/fast PON meter that just reads the light 
from the OLT rather than waiting for the OTDR to boot.  Or just clamp and see 
if there is light - 
https://www.amazon.com/YEDEMC-Optical-Identifier-800-1700nm-Functions/dp/B09JLL6NPM/
  > On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:45 PM Cassidy B. Larson  
wrote:
  >>
  >> We’ve been getting these smaller OTDR/VFL/OPMs from Amazon for our 
field techs. This way they can see if there’s a problem with the drop at least. 
If it’s anything past that, the splicers with the fancier/costlier OTDRs get 
involved.  Price point is right and it does what they need it to do.
  >> 
https://www.amazon.com/YEDEMC-Mini-Pro-Mulit-Function-5m-60Km-Dynamic/dp/B092LNWZ4Y/
  >>
  >> -c
  >>
  >> On Oct 29, 2024, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:
  >> Does anyone have any recommendations for an OTDR that won't break the 
bank but is reasonably easy to use? My Exfo just stopped powering up today, so 
evidently I'm in the market for a new one. The Exfo is about 14 years old, so I 
assume they've come a little ways since then. I don't

Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations

[fiberrun--- via AF]

You can also cold clamp the fiber cable with liquid nitrogen to induce a temperature dependent loss event to pin point your location. No cable cutting needed.

 

 

Jared

 
 

Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 at 6:51 PM
From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations




Can you improve the accuracy by testing from both ends?

 



From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 12:33 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations



 




Still, length is not an exact science with OTDRs.  Especially if it is a long shot.  



Every fiber has a different index of refraction and velocity factor.  And these characteristics vary along the entire length of the fiber.



Then there is twist in the tube, wavering routes and slack loops etc.    And there is also timebase accuracy, which varies with temperature...



 



So if you have gopher damage in the desert and the closest hand hole is 10 miles away, you will have to dig and cut several times before you zero in on it.  



 





 




From: Dev 



Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 10:39 AM



To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 



Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations





 




We had a $300 OTDR. The only thing it didn’t do was estimate length very well if it worked at all. 


 



My friend asked how much money we’d save if we dug up the wrong lady’s yard to replace a fiber that wasn’t broken.



 



Then we bought a Viavi, waited for a show discount. Now we can dig up the right lady’s lawn.



 



On Oct 31, 2024, at 8:14 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:



 




Metronet :P



 




On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 11:12 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:






Josh, which competitor? I've seen similar things out of MetroNet.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP


 





From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 6:56:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations


I thought the same thing.  I had to cancel their service after just a week or two because streaming was absolutely a joke (looked to me like their peering was full, couldn't get any kind of capacity beyond their network).  They left this convenient wall plate with an APC bulkhead just sitting here...



 




On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 5:29 PM  wrote:







I have always wanted to connect a source of upstream light to my connection at home.  (Served by a competitor).  Wonder how long it would take to troubleshoot.  Especially if I made it randomly intermittent and on a timer.  Perhaps during the first minute of the superbowl or something...?  



 



 





 




From: Jason McKemie 



Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 3:05 PM



To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 



Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations





 




I know Exfo has units with an optional PON port for connecting to a live on-net fiber and testing. Maybe this is more or less standard anymore, my current OTDR is a bit dated.

On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Josh Luthman  wrote:
> IDK what you mean by PON features unless you want an inline unit to watch the traffic.  Veex just came out with one that will do that.  I don't see the need, but it is cool.
> We bought the one (or one like) Cassidy linked and then bought this second:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CW3B9ZM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> Cassidy - get a super cheap/fast PON meter that just reads the light from the OLT rather than waiting for the OTDR to boot.  Or just clamp and see if there is light - https://www.amazon.com/YEDEMC-Optical-Identifier-800-1700nm-Functions/dp/B09JLL6NPM/
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:45 PM Cassidy B. Larson  wrote:
>>
>> We’ve been getting these smaller OTDR/VFL/OPMs from Amazon for our field techs. This way they can see if there’s a problem with the drop at least. If it’s anything past that, the splicers with the fancier/costlier OTDRs get involved.  Price point is right and it does what they need it to do.
>> https://www.amazon.com/YEDEMC-Mini-Pro-Mulit-Function-5m-60Km-Dynamic/dp/B092LNWZ4Y/
>>
>> -c
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2024, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie  wrote:
>> Does anyone have any recommendations for an OTDR that won't break the bank but is reasonably easy to use? My Exfo just stopped powering up today, so evidently I'm in the market for a new one. The Exfo is about 14 years old, so I assume they've come a little ways since then. I don't need anything for super long distances, mainly just access, PON features are a plus. --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af

Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations

[Dev]

Excavators are pretty good at inducing loss, and you don’t have to run around 
looking for cold things.

> On Nov 5, 2024, at 9:54 AM, fiberrun--- via AF  wrote:
> 
> I don't know if dry ice is cold enough to induce a loss event. Dry ice is 
> barely colder than the normal operating temperature of the cable. Liquid 
> nitrogen is significantly colder and even so only induces a 0.2 dB loss event.
>  
> There is always risk of thermal stress with such low temperatures, but the 
> clamping tool is supposed to help with that.
>  
>  
> Jared
>  
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2024
> From: ch...@go-mtc.com
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Cc: fiber...@mail.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
> Interesting.  Have never heard of that.  Are there dangers of the plastic 
> cracking etc?
> Can you do it with dry ice?  Much easier to get. 
>  
>  
> From: fiberrun--- via AF <>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 10:15 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com <>
> Cc: fiber...@mail.com <>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
>  
> You can also cold clamp the fiber cable with liquid nitrogen to induce a 
> temperature dependent loss event to pin point your location. No cable cutting 
> needed.
>  
>  
> Jared
>  
>  
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 at 6:51 PM
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
> Can you improve the accuracy by testing from both ends?
> 
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 12:33 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
> 
>  
> Still, length is not an exact science with OTDRs.  Especially if it is a long 
> shot. 
> 
> Every fiber has a different index of refraction and velocity factor.  And 
> these characteristics vary along the entire length of the fiber.
> 
> Then there is twist in the tube, wavering routes and slack loops etc.And 
> there is also timebase accuracy, which varies with temperature...
> 
>  
> So if you have gopher damage in the desert and the closest hand hole is 10 
> miles away, you will have to dig and cut several times before you zero in on 
> it. 
> 
>  
>  
> From: Dev
> 
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 10:39 AM
> 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
> 
>  
> We had a $300 OTDR. The only thing it didn’t do was estimate length very well 
> if it worked at all.
> 
>  
> My friend asked how much money we’d save if we dug up the wrong lady’s yard 
> to replace a fiber that wasn’t broken.
> 
>  
> Then we bought a Viavi, waited for a show discount. Now we can dig up the 
> right lady’s lawn.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> On Oct 31, 2024, at 8:14 AM, Josh Luthman > 
> wrote:
> 
>  
> Metronet :P
> 
>  
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 11:12 AM Mike Hammett > wrote:
> 
> Josh, which competitor? I've seen similar things out of MetroNet.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 6:56:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations 
> I thought the same thing.  I had to cancel their service after just a week or 
> two because streaming was absolutely a joke (looked to me like their peering 
> was full, couldn't get any kind of capacity beyond their network).  They left 
> this convenient wall plate with an APC bulkhead just sitting here... 
> 
>  
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 5:29 PM  wrote: 
> 
> I have always wanted to connect a source of upstream light to my connection 
> at home.  (Served by a competitor).  Wonder how long it would take to 
> troubleshoot.  Especially if I made it randomly intermittent and on a timer.  
> Perhaps during the first minute of the superbowl or something...?  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Jason McKemie 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 3:05 PM 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations 
>  
> I know Exfo has units with an optional PON port for connecting to a live 
> on-net fiber and testing. Maybe this is more or less standard anymore, my 
> current OTDR is a bit dated.
> 
> On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Josh Luthman  
> wrote:
> > IDK what you mean by PON features unless you want an inline unit to watch 
> > the traffic.  Veex just came out with one that will do that.  I don't see 
> > the need, but it is cool.
> > We bought the one (or one like) Cassidy linked and then bought this second:
> > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CW3B9ZM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> >
> > Cassidy - get a super cheap/fast PON me

Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations

[fiberrun--- via AF]

I don't know if dry ice is cold enough to induce a loss event. Dry ice is barely colder than the normal operating temperature of the cable. Liquid nitrogen is significantly colder and even so only induces a 0.2 dB loss event.

 

There is always risk of thermal stress with such low temperatures, but the clamping tool is supposed to help with that.

 

 

Jared

 


Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2024
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: fiber...@mail.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations





Interesting.  Have never heard of that.  Are there dangers of the plastic cracking etc?

Can you do it with dry ice?  Much easier to get. 

 



 


From: fiberrun--- via AF

Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 10:15 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com

Cc: fiber...@mail.com

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations



 




You can also cold clamp the fiber cable with liquid nitrogen to induce a temperature dependent loss event to pin point your location. No cable cutting needed.

 

 

Jared

 
 

Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 at 6:51 PM
From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations




Can you improve the accuracy by testing from both ends?

 



From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 12:33 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations



 




Still, length is not an exact science with OTDRs.  Especially if it is a long shot.  



Every fiber has a different index of refraction and velocity factor.  And these characteristics vary along the entire length of the fiber.



Then there is twist in the tube, wavering routes and slack loops etc.    And there is also timebase accuracy, which varies with temperature...



 



So if you have gopher damage in the desert and the closest hand hole is 10 miles away, you will have to dig and cut several times before you zero in on it.  



 





 




From: Dev 



Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 10:39 AM



To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 



Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations





 




We had a $300 OTDR. The only thing it didn’t do was estimate length very well if it worked at all. 


 



My friend asked how much money we’d save if we dug up the wrong lady’s yard to replace a fiber that wasn’t broken.



 



Then we bought a Viavi, waited for a show discount. Now we can dig up the right lady’s lawn.



 



On Oct 31, 2024, at 8:14 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:



 




Metronet :P



 




On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 11:12 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:






Josh, which competitor? I've seen similar things out of MetroNet.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP


 





From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 6:56:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations


I thought the same thing.  I had to cancel their service after just a week or two because streaming was absolutely a joke (looked to me like their peering was full, couldn't get any kind of capacity beyond their network).  They left this convenient wall plate with an APC bulkhead just sitting here...



 




On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 5:29 PM  wrote:







I have always wanted to connect a source of upstream light to my connection at home.  (Served by a competitor).  Wonder how long it would take to troubleshoot.  Especially if I made it randomly intermittent and on a timer.  Perhaps during the first minute of the superbowl or something...?  



 



 





 




From: Jason McKemie 



Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 3:05 PM



To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 



Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations





 




I know Exfo has units with an optional PON port for connecting to a live on-net fiber and testing. Maybe this is more or less standard anymore, my current OTDR is a bit dated.

On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Josh Luthman  wrote:
> IDK what you mean by PON features unless you want an inline unit to watch the traffic.  Veex just came out with one that will do that.  I don't see the need, but it is cool.
> We bought the one (or one like) Cassidy linked and then bought this second:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CW3B9ZM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> Cassidy - get a super cheap/fast PON meter that just reads the light from the OLT rather than waiting for the OTDR to boot.  Or just clamp and see if there is light - https://www.amazon.com/YEDEMC-Optical-Identifier-800-1700nm-Functions/dp/B09JLL6NPM/
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:45 PM Cassidy B. Larson  wrote:
>>
>> We’ve been getting these smaller OTDR/VFL/OPMs from Amazon for our field techs. This way they can see if there’s a problem with the drop at least. If it’s anything past that, the splicers with the fancier/costlier OT

Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations

[Jason McKemie]

Has anyone used the Exfo Optical Explorer?  Looks like it is essentially a
simplified OTDR with other functionality, but should work for basic
fault-finding.

https://www.exfo.com/en/products/field-network-testing/xpon-wifi-speed-test/opticalexplorer/



On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:17 AM  wrote:

> Yeah I’d love if I could find one of those cheap OTDR’s at 1650nm.  Last
> time I looked all the cheapos were 1310 or 1550.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2024 5:04 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
>
>
>
> You can shoot active pon fiber with the right wavelengths and filters.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2024 2:58 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR Recommendations
>
>
>
> IDK what you mean by PON features unless you want an inline unit to watch
> the traffic.  Veex just came out with one that will do that.  I don't see
> the need, but it is cool.
>
>
>
> We bought the one (or one like) Cassidy linked and then bought this second:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CW3B9ZM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> Cassidy - get a super cheap/fast PON meter that just reads the light from
> the OLT rather than waiting for the OTDR to boot.  Or just clamp and see if
> there is light -
> https://www.amazon.com/YEDEMC-Optical-Identifier-800-1700nm-Functions/dp/B09JLL6NPM/
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:45 PM Cassidy B. Larson 
> wrote:
>
> We’ve been getting these smaller OTDR/VFL/OPMs from Amazon for our field
> techs. This way they can see if there’s a problem with the drop at least.
> If it’s anything past that, the splicers with the fancier/costlier OTDRs
> get involved.  Price point is right and it does what they need it to do.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/YEDEMC-Mini-Pro-Mulit-Function-5m-60Km-Dynamic/dp/B092LNWZ4Y/
>
>
>
> -c
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2024, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie <
> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations for an OTDR that won't break the bank
> but is reasonably easy to use? My Exfo just stopped powering up today, so
> evidently I'm in the market for a new one. The Exfo is about 14 years old,
> so I assume they've come a little ways since then. I don't need anything
> for super long distances, mainly just access, PON features are a plus. --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

[Nate Burke]

The Boss and I are having an arug^H^H^H^H Discussion about installing 
fiber in a campground (Mostly permanent Singlewide units).  He thinks 
that it would be too difficult to do.  I contend that with 
Microtrenching down the campground roads, this would be the perfect 
deployment for Gpon Fiber.


Campsites are concrete pad Road to road, no dirt runs between multiple 
trailers without lots of concrete cutting.  So at most there would be 2 
trailers fed off each duct drop from the asphalt road.


When you do microtrenching, do you just do a bunch of microduct, then 
break off a microduct whenever you need it?  There would probably be ~20 
microducts that could run out of a central Handhole at the end of the 
street, and feed both sides of the street for 40 trailers.  20 trailers 
per side, 10 microduct drops per side 1 microduct feeding 2 trailers.  
Is that too many for a microtrench?


There is an existing coax cable plant, installed in the early 80's that 
is bandaided together to provide Docsis at about 10mb/5mb, with many 
many outages.  All utilities are private, unmarked, and sometimes near 
the surface.


The microtrenching videos make it looks like you just advance down the 
street at a few feet per minute, with a fixed road behind you.  Is it 
not that simple?  I'm thinking the whole campground of 1500 spots could 
be installed in a few weeks.


Anyone done campground deployments?  Tree coverage makes RF not as 
feasible.  Downside of fiber is that there are a handful of clearQAM TV 
Channel on the existing coax plant.  That's much harder to do with fiber 
without some sort of STB agreement.



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

[chuck]

We throw down 2 microducts minimum.  Use one of them to daisy chain into the 
boundary between two homes.  The other for spare or mainline/express 
circuits.


We trench between 15 and 30 feet per minute depending on the width and depth 
of cut and depending on the type of blade and attachment.  Current speed 
records have all be set with my saw attachment on a Vermeer RTX550 using my 
blades.


After the duct is in the trench, you fill the trench with grout/flow 
fill/low strength concrete.
Most places require a cap of mastic on top of the concrete but the concrete 
is good enough by itself for many applications.


You can use sprinkler boxes if there is no traffic on them.

Many of my customers get between 2000'-and 4000' each day.  But that is with 
a fairly large crew.


You go out ahead of time blocking off the road, doing core drill and vacuum 
for each place you want to branch off a lateral connection.


Much easier, faster and cheaper than drilling.  Plowing is always the best 
if you can do it.


Lateral under sidewalks with a missile.



Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- 
From: Nate Burke

Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 3:42 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

The Boss and I are having an arug^H^H^H^H Discussion about installing
fiber in a campground (Mostly permanent Singlewide units).  He thinks
that it would be too difficult to do.  I contend that with
Microtrenching down the campground roads, this would be the perfect
deployment for Gpon Fiber.

Campsites are concrete pad Road to road, no dirt runs between multiple
trailers without lots of concrete cutting.  So at most there would be 2
trailers fed off each duct drop from the asphalt road.

When you do microtrenching, do you just do a bunch of microduct, then
break off a microduct whenever you need it?  There would probably be ~20
microducts that could run out of a central Handhole at the end of the
street, and feed both sides of the street for 40 trailers.  20 trailers
per side, 10 microduct drops per side 1 microduct feeding 2 trailers.
Is that too many for a microtrench?

There is an existing coax cable plant, installed in the early 80's that
is bandaided together to provide Docsis at about 10mb/5mb, with many
many outages.  All utilities are private, unmarked, and sometimes near
the surface.

The microtrenching videos make it looks like you just advance down the
street at a few feet per minute, with a fixed road behind you.  Is it
not that simple?  I'm thinking the whole campground of 1500 spots could
be installed in a few weeks.

Anyone done campground deployments?  Tree coverage makes RF not as
feasible.  Downside of fiber is that there are a handful of clearQAM TV
Channel on the existing coax plant.  That's much harder to do with fiber
without some sort of STB agreement.


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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

[Nate Burke]

So with Gpon you could come between 2 trailers, use a 4 way splitter, 
feed 2 things, then use 1 to go to the next splitter?  I guess that 
makes way more sense than a bunch of duct.


On 11/5/2024 4:55 PM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
We throw down 2 microducts minimum.  Use one of them to daisy chain 
into the boundary between two homes.  The other for spare or 
mainline/express circuits.


We trench between 15 and 30 feet per minute depending on the width and 
depth of cut and depending on the type of blade and attachment.  
Current speed records have all be set with my saw attachment on a 
Vermeer RTX550 using my blades.


After the duct is in the trench, you fill the trench with grout/flow 
fill/low strength concrete.
Most places require a cap of mastic on top of the concrete but the 
concrete is good enough by itself for many applications.


You can use sprinkler boxes if there is no traffic on them.

Many of my customers get between 2000'-and 4000' each day.  But that 
is with a fairly large crew.


You go out ahead of time blocking off the road, doing core drill and 
vacuum for each place you want to branch off a lateral connection.


Much easier, faster and cheaper than drilling.  Plowing is always the 
best if you can do it.


Lateral under sidewalks with a missile.



Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 3:42 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

The Boss and I are having an arug^H^H^H^H Discussion about installing
fiber in a campground (Mostly permanent Singlewide units).  He thinks
that it would be too difficult to do.  I contend that with
Microtrenching down the campground roads, this would be the perfect
deployment for Gpon Fiber.

Campsites are concrete pad Road to road, no dirt runs between multiple
trailers without lots of concrete cutting.  So at most there would be 2
trailers fed off each duct drop from the asphalt road.

When you do microtrenching, do you just do a bunch of microduct, then
break off a microduct whenever you need it?  There would probably be ~20
microducts that could run out of a central Handhole at the end of the
street, and feed both sides of the street for 40 trailers.  20 trailers
per side, 10 microduct drops per side 1 microduct feeding 2 trailers.
Is that too many for a microtrench?

There is an existing coax cable plant, installed in the early 80's that
is bandaided together to provide Docsis at about 10mb/5mb, with many
many outages.  All utilities are private, unmarked, and sometimes near
the surface.

The microtrenching videos make it looks like you just advance down the
street at a few feet per minute, with a fixed road behind you.  Is it
not that simple?  I'm thinking the whole campground of 1500 spots could
be installed in a few weeks.

Anyone done campground deployments?  Tree coverage makes RF not as
feasible.  Downside of fiber is that there are a handful of clearQAM TV
Channel on the existing coax plant.  That's much harder to do with fiber
without some sort of STB agreement.




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[AFMUG] ISP level DHCP server

[Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF]

We have always used PPPoE in the past.  Just happen to be what our first system 
23 years ago was based on and we just stuck with it.  We are setting up a new 
area with all new equipment.  Looking at setting it up as DHCP.  Looks like I 
can do some DHCP radius stuff and our new equipment will inject data via option 
82 if I want.

The issue I can't wrap my head around is security.  If I just setup a normal 
DHCP server, all clients will be on the same LAN.  That would not be good.  

I'm looking at option 121 and /32 addresses.  But, I don't think all 
residential routers support 121.

VLANs are another option, but I don think they will scale well.

I feel like I'm missing some type of simple answer. 


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Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

Serving Manatee and Sarasota Counties with High-Speed Internet for over 20 years


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Re: [AFMUG] ISP level DHCP server

[Josh Luthman]

We NAT'ed our wireless SM to solve that.

Now that we're doing fiber (PON) the ONT are all RG so it's nat no matter
what.  Technically you could bridge the ONT but 99.999% of our customers
are simply RG/NAT.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2024 at 4:39 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF <
af@af.afmug.com> wrote:

> We have always used PPPoE in the past.  Just happen to be what our first
> system 23 years ago was based on and we just stuck with it.  We are setting
> up a new area with all new equipment.  Looking at setting it up as DHCP.
> Looks like I can do some DHCP radius stuff and our new equipment will
> inject data via option 82 if I want.
>
> The issue I can't wrap my head around is security.  If I just setup a
> normal DHCP server, all clients will be on the same LAN.  That would not be
> good.
>
> I'm looking at option 121 and /32 addresses.  But, I don't think all
> residential routers support 121.
>
> VLANs are another option, but I don think they will scale well.
>
> I feel like I'm missing some type of simple answer.
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Communications
> www.Myakka.com
>
> Serving Manatee and Sarasota Counties with High-Speed Internet for over 20
> years
>
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

[TJ Trout]

You can also do fbt (non-symmetrical) splits like 95/5 90/10 etc where you
peel off just enough light for your 1x4 or whatever and keep the rest
headed down the strand.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2024, 3:00 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> So with Gpon you could come between 2 trailers, use a 4 way splitter,
> feed 2 things, then use 1 to go to the next splitter?  I guess that
> makes way more sense than a bunch of duct.
>
> On 11/5/2024 4:55 PM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
> > We throw down 2 microducts minimum.  Use one of them to daisy chain
> > into the boundary between two homes.  The other for spare or
> > mainline/express circuits.
> >
> > We trench between 15 and 30 feet per minute depending on the width and
> > depth of cut and depending on the type of blade and attachment.
> > Current speed records have all be set with my saw attachment on a
> > Vermeer RTX550 using my blades.
> >
> > After the duct is in the trench, you fill the trench with grout/flow
> > fill/low strength concrete.
> > Most places require a cap of mastic on top of the concrete but the
> > concrete is good enough by itself for many applications.
> >
> > You can use sprinkler boxes if there is no traffic on them.
> >
> > Many of my customers get between 2000'-and 4000' each day.  But that
> > is with a fairly large crew.
> >
> > You go out ahead of time blocking off the road, doing core drill and
> > vacuum for each place you want to branch off a lateral connection.
> >
> > Much easier, faster and cheaper than drilling.  Plowing is always the
> > best if you can do it.
> >
> > Lateral under sidewalks with a missile.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Chuck McCown
> >
> > McCown Technology Corporation
> > 8401 N Commerce Dr
> > Lake Point, Utah 84074
> > 801-250-9503 Office
> > 435-830-4306 Cell
> > www.mccowntech.com
> > www.microtrench.pro
> > www.terabitnetworks.com
> > -Original Message- From: Nate Burke
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 3:42 PM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> > Subject: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching
> >
> > The Boss and I are having an arug^H^H^H^H Discussion about installing
> > fiber in a campground (Mostly permanent Singlewide units).  He thinks
> > that it would be too difficult to do.  I contend that with
> > Microtrenching down the campground roads, this would be the perfect
> > deployment for Gpon Fiber.
> >
> > Campsites are concrete pad Road to road, no dirt runs between multiple
> > trailers without lots of concrete cutting.  So at most there would be 2
> > trailers fed off each duct drop from the asphalt road.
> >
> > When you do microtrenching, do you just do a bunch of microduct, then
> > break off a microduct whenever you need it?  There would probably be ~20
> > microducts that could run out of a central Handhole at the end of the
> > street, and feed both sides of the street for 40 trailers.  20 trailers
> > per side, 10 microduct drops per side 1 microduct feeding 2 trailers.
> > Is that too many for a microtrench?
> >
> > There is an existing coax cable plant, installed in the early 80's that
> > is bandaided together to provide Docsis at about 10mb/5mb, with many
> > many outages.  All utilities are private, unmarked, and sometimes near
> > the surface.
> >
> > The microtrenching videos make it looks like you just advance down the
> > street at a few feet per minute, with a fixed road behind you.  Is it
> > not that simple?  I'm thinking the whole campground of 1500 spots could
> > be installed in a few weeks.
> >
> > Anyone done campground deployments?  Tree coverage makes RF not as
> > feasible.  Downside of fiber is that there are a handful of clearQAM TV
> > Channel on the existing coax plant.  That's much harder to do with fiber
> > without some sort of STB agreement.
> >
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

[chuck]

We prefer to toss a fairly high count in the duct and put the splitters at 
more of a central point.
But distributed splitters certainly allow you to keep the count low.  144 is 
pretty cheap and allows a home run to each dwelling from the splitter 
location.


-Original Message- 
From: Nate Burke

Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 4:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

So with Gpon you could come between 2 trailers, use a 4 way splitter,
feed 2 things, then use 1 to go to the next splitter?  I guess that
makes way more sense than a bunch of duct.

On 11/5/2024 4:55 PM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
We throw down 2 microducts minimum.  Use one of them to daisy chain into 
the boundary between two homes.  The other for spare or mainline/express 
circuits.


We trench between 15 and 30 feet per minute depending on the width and 
depth of cut and depending on the type of blade and attachment.  Current 
speed records have all be set with my saw attachment on a Vermeer RTX550 
using my blades.


After the duct is in the trench, you fill the trench with grout/flow 
fill/low strength concrete.
Most places require a cap of mastic on top of the concrete but the 
concrete is good enough by itself for many applications.


You can use sprinkler boxes if there is no traffic on them.

Many of my customers get between 2000'-and 4000' each day.  But that is 
with a fairly large crew.


You go out ahead of time blocking off the road, doing core drill and 
vacuum for each place you want to branch off a lateral connection.


Much easier, faster and cheaper than drilling.  Plowing is always the best 
if you can do it.


Lateral under sidewalks with a missile.



Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 3:42 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: [AFMUG] Fiber and Microtrenching

The Boss and I are having an arug^H^H^H^H Discussion about installing
fiber in a campground (Mostly permanent Singlewide units).  He thinks
that it would be too difficult to do.  I contend that with
Microtrenching down the campground roads, this would be the perfect
deployment for Gpon Fiber.

Campsites are concrete pad Road to road, no dirt runs between multiple
trailers without lots of concrete cutting.  So at most there would be 2
trailers fed off each duct drop from the asphalt road.

When you do microtrenching, do you just do a bunch of microduct, then
break off a microduct whenever you need it?  There would probably be ~20
microducts that could run out of a central Handhole at the end of the
street, and feed both sides of the street for 40 trailers.  20 trailers
per side, 10 microduct drops per side 1 microduct feeding 2 trailers.
Is that too many for a microtrench?

There is an existing coax cable plant, installed in the early 80's that
is bandaided together to provide Docsis at about 10mb/5mb, with many
many outages.  All utilities are private, unmarked, and sometimes near
the surface.

The microtrenching videos make it looks like you just advance down the
street at a few feet per minute, with a fixed road behind you.  Is it
not that simple?  I'm thinking the whole campground of 1500 spots could
be installed in a few weeks.

Anyone done campground deployments?  Tree coverage makes RF not as
feasible.  Downside of fiber is that there are a handful of clearQAM TV
Channel on the existing coax plant.  That's much harder to do with fiber
without some sort of STB agreement.




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Re: [AFMUG] ISP level DHCP server

[Trey Scarborough]

What routers do you use to terminate your L2 and issue your dhcp? Most 
support /32 in some way or another. you really dont need the option 121 
just a /32 with a default works. I have done this on juniper, cisco, 
mikrotik, netelastic, and nokia. Some of those vendors require a BNG 
license to support it fully though. You can do standard /24 /23 etc you 
just need to configure isolation on your switches/OLT/APs. The biggest 
drawback to that is customers can not reach each other and in some 
instances this is problematic. Like if a someone wants to play a game 
with their neighbor.


The simple answer is look for some BNG "Broadband Network Gateway" 
software it will probably have all the features you would want and will 
support it well.


On 11/5/24 3:38 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF wrote:

We have always used PPPoE in the past.  Just happen to be what our first system 
23 years ago was based on and we just stuck with it.  We are setting up a new 
area with all new equipment.  Looking at setting it up as DHCP.  Looks like I 
can do some DHCP radius stuff and our new equipment will inject data via option 
82 if I want.

The issue I can't wrap my head around is security.  If I just setup a normal 
DHCP server, all clients will be on the same LAN.  That would not be good.

I'm looking at option 121 and /32 addresses.  But, I don't think all 
residential routers support 121.

VLANs are another option, but I don think they will scale well.

I feel like I'm missing some type of simple answer.


--

Thanks,
  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

Serving Manatee and Sarasota Counties with High-Speed Internet for over 20 years




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Re: [AFMUG] ISP level DHCP server

[Sterling Jacobson via AF]

What equipment?

Some types of equipment like our Calix XGSPON, handles this natively, so you 
can just use DHCP and it will already isolate the clients.

We still have active ethernet in some parts of our network, so port isolation 
or switch port forwarding or similar items are what you are looking for without 
having to resort to fancy layer3 type stuff like that.

But that all depends on the equipment of course. We use Mikrotik and UI and 
some FiberStore switches in our network, all of which do a form of isolation on 
layer2 natively. So when a client device looks at it's WAN network all it sees 
is the upstream devices and none of the other layer2 devices.

From: AF  on behalf of Mark - Myakka Technologies via 
AF 
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 2:38 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP level DHCP server

We have always used PPPoE in the past.  Just happen to be what our first system 
23 years ago was based on and we just stuck with it.  We are setting up a new 
area with all new equipment.  Looking at setting it up as DHCP.  Looks like I 
can do some DHCP radius stuff and our new equipment will inject data via option 
82 if I want.

The issue I can't wrap my head around is security.  If I just setup a normal 
DHCP server, all clients will be on the same LAN.  That would not be good.

I'm looking at option 121 and /32 addresses.  But, I don't think all 
residential routers support 121.

VLANs are another option, but I don think they will scale well.

I feel like I'm missing some type of simple answer.


--

Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

Serving Manatee and Sarasota Counties with High-Speed Internet for over 20 years


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[AFMUG] cheeseburger in a can

[Ken Hohhof]

https://www.thetakeout.com/taste-test-cheeseburger-in-a-can-1798213615/

 

Chuck, do you have these in your prepper pantry?

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