Re: [9fans] Plan9 C compiler targetting WASM

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

Regarding RISC-V:
Richard Miller did the port, and there is also an updated kencc. Michael
Engel has it here, also referencing Richard's work:
https://github.com/michaelengel/kencc-cross

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, 15:46 Cyber Fonic,  wrote:

> My Google-fu is not coming up with any definitive results.
>
> Does anybody know of any implementation of Plan9 C compiler targeting WASM
> ?
>
> On a related note: I believe there was some work being done to target
> RISC-V. I can't remember who or where it was located.
>
> Appreciate any references or comments that you might have.
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
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Re: [9fans] NIX experience

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

Fantastic!

Ron, to make it easier, you can set the regen branch as the new default
branch in the repo settings on GitHub, so people don't accidentally file
against master.

On Thu, 9 Jan 2025, 23:22 Ron Minnich,  wrote:

> WOW! Paul got it to build.
>
> git/clone g...@github.com:rminnich/nix-os
> git/branch -b origin/regen -n regen
> cd sys/src/nix
> # HEY ANYONE! WANT TO FIX THIS!
> rc -x nix # set the x bits?
> # make it so it does not have to be in $home/nix-os?
>
> cd boot
> mk
> cd ../k10
> mk
> # it may seem like it hangs, it's actually waiting for your nvram key.
> # HEY ANYONE! the prompt for nvram gets buried in output. Want to fix this?
>
> vmx 9k8cpu # HEY ANYONE! vmx thinks the multiboot header in 9k8cpu is
> wrong, but it's not. This is an easy one, Look at the multiboot header
> in l32p.s
> # and see why vmx does not like it.
>
> Or just netboot a cpu server with 9k8cpu
>
> Note we decided to leave a few things for people to take a try at
> fixing. These are great little exercises. Learn to use git, learn a
> workflow, building a kernel, etc. etc.
>
> contributing:
> The github workflow is to fork github.com/rminnich/nix-os, checkout a
> branch based on regen, hack hack, commit -s, push to your branch, that
> will make a pull request.
> Very standard stuff, we don't know how to make it all work with 9front git
> yet.
>
> Questions? Put them here, and thanks in advance.
>
> ron
>
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 4:19 PM Ron Minnich  wrote:
> >
> > NIX is moving forward, thank you paul!
> >
> > The branch is called regen, we have our first commit in many years.
> > Please take a look. If you submit a PR, please add a signed-off-by:
> > line.
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 10:01 PM Ron Minnich  wrote:
> > >
> > > so for work like this, my motto is commit early, commit often, to a
> > > branch we can always drop later. no harm.  It's easier (for me anyway)
> > > than shuffling patches around in email.
> > >
> > > I'm happy to accept a pull request against rminnich/nix-os, , let's
> > > call the branch regen.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 9:52 PM Paul Lalonde 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > As you say, Ron.
> > > >
> > > > First, here's my nix script, such as it is, cribbed from the old nix
> one.  It has holes, guaranteed.  Also, I went and pulled in a "user"
> directory, just for old habits dying hard.  Yes, I still use glenda on this
> old terminal.  Call me names for it.
> > > > #!/bin/rc
> > > >
> > > > unmount /sys/include >[2]/dev/null
> > > >
> > > > unmount /sys/src/libc >[2]/dev/null
> > > >
> > > > bind -b /usr/glenda/nix-os/sys/include /sys/include
> > > >
> > > > bind -c /usr/glenda/nix-os/sys/src/libc /sys/src/libc
> > > >
> > > > cd /usr/glenda/nix-os/sys
> > > >
> > > > for(d in man/*){
> > > >
> > > > unmount /sys/$d >[2]/dev/null
> > > >
> > > > bind -b $d /sys/$d
> > > >
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > exit ''
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My terminal is a pi 400, so I had to build out the /amd64 tree,
> objtype=arm64.  I'll assume folks are clever enough to do this, or to use
> an amd64 terminal or cpu to do this work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then mk your heart out.  The main pain points are ulong parameters
> that are now usize in 9front, and the renaming of Ureg.ip to Ureg.pc.
> These changes appear limited to
> > > >
> > > > M amd64/include/ureg.h
> > > >
> > > > M sys/include/libc.h
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/boot/pc/lib.h
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/boot/nopsession.c
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/k10/acore.c
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/k10/fpu.c
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/k10/sipi.h
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/k10/syscall.c
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/k10/trap.c
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/port/lib.h
> > > >
> > > > M sys/src/nix/port/portfns.h
> > > >
> > > > The diffs are attached.  I don't want to commit a branch because as
> I said, I don't think my bind mappings are entirely correct, though I'm
> seeing many fewer crossed wires now.
> > > > Attached is the (trivial) mkfile I built for nix-os/sys/nix/boot
> which *almost* makes a full build happen.  parseipmask has gained a v4
> parameter in 9front, which means the fix there needs actual analysis.
> qsort is somehow also complaining, possibly indicating I'm pulling the
> wrong header for it, indicating a problem in my bind script.
> > > >
> > > > This feels completely surmountable.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 9:29 PM Ron Minnich  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> if you can document your steps, then others can stand on your
> > > >> shoulders, possibly, and we can all move forward?
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 9:08 PM Paul Lalonde <
> paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Ok, not a bad first day poking at it.  I have a growing (but not
> ready) new nix script to pull the right pieces over top of my build
> environment.
> > > >> > I have a near-complete build, but with hazards: 9front has
> evolved in a number of places with ma

Re: [9fans] Nix/regen: doc

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

That is excellent, thank you!

On Sun, 19 Jan 2025, 12:57 ,  wrote:

> I have started gathering notes and references about Nix, including
> (and mainly) from the mailing list, in order to put everything
> together (I will add, hopefully, original content by working on the
> code too à la Lions commentary).
> 
> The document (CC-BY) is here:
> 
> http://notes.kergis.com/nix-os.html
> 
> Note: I'm reusing a CSS I wrote for other notes so the document may
> not render beautifully with a browser not using a CSS.
> 
> Supplementary references I have found (they are linked in the
> previous document) are the presentation of Fran. J. Ballesteros (nemo)
> here:
> 
> https://lsub.org/nix/
> 
> that links to 2 PDF:
> 
> Analyzing manycore OS design aspects in NIX:
> 
> Abstract:
> https://github.com/fjballest/docs/blob/master/nixposterabs.pdf
> Figures:
> https://github.com/fjballest/docs/blob/master/posternix.pdf
> 
> --
> Thierry Laronde 
>  http://www.kergis.com/
> http://kertex.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

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Re: Re[2]: [9fans] Chemnitz Linux Days 2025

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

I could also join, hey, fun little round!
Should we apply for a community/project table? No idea if that is still
available.

On Sun, 19 Jan 2025, 17:47 Alexandr Babic,  wrote:

> hmmm, good idea :-)
>
> best regards, alex.
>
>
> - Původní zpráva -
> --
> Odesilatel: hiro (23h...@gmail.com)
> Datum: 01/19/25 17:12
> Příjemce: 9fans (9fans@9fans.net)
> Předmět: Re: [9fans] Chemnitz Linux Days 2025
>
> if you go i might drop by, only takes me around 4 hours to get there
>
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 4:45 PM sirjofri 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> just asking if someone plans to go to the chemnitz linux days (Chemnitzer
>> Linux-Tage) this year (22./23.03.)? I'm considering going there. Could be a
>> place to meet.
>> 
>> sirjofri
>
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
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Re: Re[2]: [9fans] Chemnitz Linux Days 2025

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

Nvm, too late, unless we send a ton of cat pictures
https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2025/en/programm/hinweise

There is enough space upstairs usually where we can sit together.

On Sun, 19 Jan 2025, 19:58 Daniel Maslowski, 
wrote:

> I could also join, hey, fun little round!
> Should we apply for a community/project table? No idea if that is still
> available.
>
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2025, 17:47 Alexandr Babic,  wrote:
>
>> hmmm, good idea :-)
>>
>> best regards, alex.
>>
>>
>> - Původní zpráva -
>> --
>> Odesilatel: hiro (23h...@gmail.com)
>> Datum: 01/19/25 17:12
>> Příjemce: 9fans (9fans@9fans.net)
>> Předmět: Re: [9fans] Chemnitz Linux Days 2025
>>
>> if you go i might drop by, only takes me around 4 hours to get there
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 4:45 PM sirjofri 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>> 
>>> just asking if someone plans to go to the chemnitz linux days
>>> (Chemnitzer Linux-Tage) this year (22./23.03.)? I'm considering going
>>> there. Could be a place to meet.
>>> 
>>> sirjofri
>>
>> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
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>>

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Re: [9fans] 11th IWP9: cryptography / security

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

I'd say, submit a paper and elaborate on this.

There are many approaches to cryptography besides primitives that count on
problems hard to calculcate, such a steganograpby (hiding messages in
images) and other forms of covert channels;
https://github.com/mindcrypt/covertchannels-steganography

Mind that analog computing is a thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer

And so is biological computing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_computing

You will find existing approaches of both applied to cryptography.

Thanks for the note on the copyright.

Cheers and good luck!

On Mon, 13 Jan 2025, 22:00 ,  wrote:

> Reading the presentation of the upcoming 11th International Workshop
> on Plan 9, on http://iwp9.org, I notice that:
> 
> "This year, our host having a focus on computer security, papers about
> cryptography, authentication, fault tolerance, robustness, security
> applications, error detection and remediation, software reliability,
> etc. are particularly welcome."
> 
> I'd like to add something (if people at the CNAM read this too...).
> 
> When speaking about cryptography / security, one needs to speak also
> about computability.
> 
> "Computing" or "calculating" is the way humans track nature, by
> generally beating around the bushes (indirect, lengthy access). There
> are equations that we can write, but that we can't solve while soap
> bubbles, for example, have no difficulty "calculating" (wrong verb)
> minimal surfaces that we don't know how to calculate.
> 
> So if organizers or researchers in the field could add a presentation
> about the limit of numerical, digital, and propose an answer to the
> following question (perhaps by crossing swords with physicists),
> I would be very interested:
> 
> "Cryptography for security relies on how long and how computer
> intensive is a digital computation to solve some equations. But
> how to be reassured about the digital security of something, if
> one can not prove that there are no "soap bubbles" able to analogically
> solve the equations that computers are unable to solve?"
> 
> More broadly, the main question is: what are the limits of numerical,
> digital, computation? What is it obviously good at? What is it open
> to question good at? Does it rule out experiments?---experiment:
> "analogical computing" i.e. letting Nature doing the calculus.
> 
> PS: could someone at the Plan9 Foundation update the copyright on the
> bottom of the pages? It is an easy way to show that things are still
> alive ;-)
> --
> Thierry Laronde 
>  http://www.kergis.com/
> http://kertex.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

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Re: [9fans] NIX/regen

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

Tracing back via the commit message, that came via
https://codereview.appspot.com/5143046

On Tue, 14 Jan 2025, 10:06 ,  wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 10:55:30PM -0800, Ron Minnich wrote:
> > Paul has taken us a whole lot further. Be sure to do a pull. 13,000 or
> > so removed files later, NIX is now just a small layer over a standard
> > 9front distro.
> >
>
> BTW, there were two "logos":
>
> ./lib/nix_color.png
> ./lib/nix_red.png
>
> (Attached here.)
>
> I don't know if these revive some memory for the people working on it
> initially. FWIW
>
> "Historical" note: David David du Colombier's 9legacy have patches
> coming from nix applied (and some reverted):
>
> 9k-jmk-physallocThe NIX Authors sys/src/9k/k10:
> import physalloc from NIX
>
> 9k-jmk-mmu-physallocThe NIX Authors sys/src/9k/k10: use
> physalloc in MMU
>
> ##9k-jmk-mmu-freelist   The NIX Authors sys/src/9k/k10: import MMU
> freelist from NIX
> ##9k-jmk-image-lru  The NIX Authors sys/src/9k/port:
> import image LRU from NIX
>
> FWIW too.
>
> Note: I had planned to review the whole tree (diff'ing essentially) to
> spot pieces that could be related to NIX and not in sys/ subdirs. Do
> knowledgeable people think it still has some value to do so?
>
> > On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 12:07?PM Ron Minnich  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 11:56?AM  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Note: I will work for sure some hours on it on week-ends, mainly on
> > > > Sundays. I may happen to work on it supplementary to that when time
> > > > permits---or because I'm bored at what I'm doing currently. So
> silence
> > > > from me for days will not be a sign that I dropped the ball and if
> > > > someone beats me at what I was planning to do, I will simply take
> the next
> > > > "reachable" (for me) problem remaining.
> > >
> > > That's precisely what I was hoping to hear. You just defined a
> > > sustainable model for contributing.
> 
> --
> Thierry Laronde 
>  http://www.kergis.com/
> http://kertex.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

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Re: [9fans] Arduino programming on plan 9

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

The ESP MCUs can be easily flashed via serial.
The protocol is publicly documented:
https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esptool/en/latest/esp32s3/advanced-topics/serial-protocol.html

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025, 21:35 Skip Tavakkolian, 
wrote:

> Arduino boards now include arm32 and ESP32 (Xtensa) processors in
> addition to atmel AVR.  All of the differences are hidden by Arduino
> IDE, which does a good job of plastering over things for these and
> many other (not Arduino) boards, including RISC-V boards.
>
> I would think that the most likely boards that could easily be
> supported on Plan 9 would be the Pi Pico (arm) and Pico 2 (arm +
> riscv) through 5c/ic modifications. Those boards show up as fat32
> drives on USB and the binary can just be copied over (e.g. usbfat: &&
> cp foo /n/sdUx.y).  I think SAMD21 boards like XIAO would work very
> similarly.
>
> On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 7:48 AM sirjofri 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone, happy new year,
> >
> > Out of curiosity, I wanted to ask if someone has any experience with
> programming arduino boards on plan 9. The question is not only about
> writing code and compiling it (as that is probably possible), but
> especially for sending the binary over to the chip to make it work.
> >
> > I don't know enough about what protocols are used for that, and how easy
> they are to implement, or maybe if we even have something like that already
> using xyz-modem or whatever.
> >
> > Did anyone do experiments on that already, using plan 9?
> >
> > sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] NIX experience

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

There have been other ideas in similar directions over the years.
E.g.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342759611_SCE-Comm_A_Real-Time_Inter-Core_Communication_Framework_for_Strictly_Partitioned_Multi-core_Processors
about the concepts of ACs and CCs (communication cores).

On Sun, 5 Jan 2025, 01:49 Charles Forsyth, 
wrote:

> i think brazil experimented with networking outside the kernel but it was
> pushed back in
>
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 at 00:24, Thaddeus Woskowiak 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 1:03 PM Bakul Shah via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Jan 4, 2025, at 9:35 AM, Stuart Morrow 
>> wrote:
>> > >> This has been a very interesting discussion, thanks all. My offer
>> > >> remains: if anyone wants to revive NIX, I am happy to help.
>> > >
>> > > Am I the only one who sees that the Fastcall stuff would be good for
>> > > bringing some devices out of the kernel (that are devs only for
>> > > performance reasons)?
>> > >
>> > > And then, closer to what Fastcall was actually for (fossil and
>> > > venti>disk), you also have ??fs>nusb/disk>disk, which could always do
>> > > with a speedup.
>> >
>> > I've been meaning to ask... What is the typical *overhead* of a 9p
>> > call to a user level driver compared to a kernel based driver?
>> 
>> From what I know the only performance issue for 'user-space <->
>> kernel-space' 9P are context switches. IP is in-kernel to eliminate
>> context switches for ether(3) <-> ip(3).
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Re: [9fans] Chemnitz Linux Days 2025

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

I'll be there for sure as well, we can sit at the tables upstairs.
If I don't forget it, I'll see that I print a little sign.

You'll see then. :)

On Sat, 15 Mar 2025, 14:06 sirjofri via 9fans, <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

> Following up on that, it looks like I'll be there. I don't know the
> location yet, but it seems pretty open so it should be quite possible to
> find each other if there are obvious signs.
> 
> sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Chemnitz Linux Days 2025

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

Our gathering is going well.
Officially approved by CLT.

https://mastodon.social/@CyReVolt/114205825230442150

On Sat, 22 Mar 2025, 10:48 Daniel Maslowski, 
wrote:

> I've printed Glenda on a sheet of paper.
> And I'm wearing the IWP9 2024 t-shirt.
>
> Find me upstairs by the tables in the middle.
>
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2025, 23:47 Clout Tolstoy,  wrote:
>
>> I can offer up pics of my cat. I have soo many.  From a kitten to about
>> 5. I wouldn't be able to attend but if that's all you need for a table, I'm
>> sure she would be happy help.
>> On Sat, Mar 15, 2025, 8:15 AM Daniel Maslowski via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll be there for sure as well, we can sit at the tables upstairs.
>>> If I don't forget it, I'll see that I print a little sign.
>>>
>>> You'll see then. :)
>>> On Sat, 15 Mar 2025, 14:06 sirjofri via 9fans, <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Following up on that, it looks like I'll be there. I don't know the
>>>> location yet, but it seems pretty open so it should be quite possible to
>>>> find each other if there are obvious signs.
>>>> 
>>>> sirjofri
>>> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
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Re: [9fans] IWP9 Website troubles

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

Are you making changes? The website is currently broken via HTTPS.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025, 19:29 Skip Tavakkolian, 
wrote:

> I think that's expected, but it's an issue that should be fixed.
>
> As I understand it,  the warning is because AES_128_CBC is susceptible to
> Padding Oracle attack (depending on implementation) and when TLS only uses
> RSA key exchange, it doesn't provide forward secrecy (interloper can
> passively record then decrypt).
>
> There isn't anything on the site that would be worth the hacking trouble.
> It is just static content and no JavaScript was (ab)used in any of it.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2025, 8:12 AM Willow Liquorice  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Just thought I'd mention that my browser does *not* like connecting to
>> the IWP9 website. It's complaining about the site doing an "old-style
>> (potentially unsafe) handshake" – SSL_ERROR_UNSAFE_NEGOTIATION.
>> 
>> Is this a quick fix on either end?
>> 
>> - Willow
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Re: [9fans] Chemnitz Linux Days 2025

[Daniel Maslowski via 9fans]

I've printed Glenda on a sheet of paper.
And I'm wearing the IWP9 2024 t-shirt.

Find me upstairs by the tables in the middle.

On Sat, 15 Mar 2025, 23:47 Clout Tolstoy,  wrote:

> I can offer up pics of my cat. I have soo many.  From a kitten to about 5.
> I wouldn't be able to attend but if that's all you need for a table, I'm
> sure she would be happy help.
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2025, 8:15 AM Daniel Maslowski via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I'll be there for sure as well, we can sit at the tables upstairs.
>> If I don't forget it, I'll see that I print a little sign.
>>
>> You'll see then. :)
>> On Sat, 15 Mar 2025, 14:06 sirjofri via 9fans, <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Following up on that, it looks like I'll be there. I don't know the
>>> location yet, but it seems pretty open so it should be quite possible to
>>> find each other if there are obvious signs.
>>> 
>>> sirjofri
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