Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Akshat Kumar wrote: > Although there is already an ircfs for Inferno, since I don't want to > run Inferno outside of Plan 9 Why not? > and certainly not over a remote connection to Plan 9 Why not? > (these > also being my only options -- unless someone wants to start creating drivers > for > Atheros wireless cards), I've begun work on an FS backed IRC client for native > Plan 9. Steve Q. has been kind enough to provide me with some ideas and code > from his previous tries at something like this (i.e., stuff previously found > inside /n/sources/contrib/steve/chatfs-unfinished.tgz). I seem to remember Mjl, the author if the inferno ircfs, wrote an ircfs for Plan 9 ages ago. Still, seems like a total waste of time when you have a perfectly fine one in limbo, which is a much more convenient language for building such a thing anyway. uriel
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
>I don't want to > run Inferno > outside of Plan 9, and certainly not over a remote connection to Plan 9 (these > also being my only options -- unless someone wants to start creating drivers > for > Atheros wireless cards) Couldn't you run Inferno inside of plan9?
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
> > I seem to remember Mjl, the author if the inferno ircfs, wrote an > ircfs for Plan 9 ages ago. Still, seems like a total waste of time > when you have a perfectly fine one in limbo, which is a much more > convenient language for building such a thing anyway. > the op said he was running plan 9. if we take that as a reasonable thing to be doing, then it makes sense to want to run native plan 9 programs for a number of reasons. first, if the op doesn't have any inferno running already, he doesn't need to install and figure out how to run it. not that this is hard, but it is important to admit this is an extra step. once installed, plan 9 tools like ps and kill won't work on inferno procs. so one need to either deal with the disconnect or write some scripts to make it less evident. none of this is specific to plan 9 and inferno. the same could be said using bsd and 9vx or linux and a browser running browser procs. so, since an ircfs is not a huge project, i don't think it's unreasonable to write one for plan 9. it's what i would do. - erik
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
>> >> I seem to remember Mjl, the author if the inferno ircfs, wrote an >> ircfs for Plan 9 ages ago. Still, seems like a total waste of time >> when you have a perfectly fine one in limbo, which is a much more >> convenient language for building such a thing anyway. >> [snip] > so, since an ircfs is not a huge project, i don't think > it's unreasonable to write one for plan 9. it's what i > would do. > > - erik I would add to Erik's comments that perhaps Akshat wants to write an ircfs, partly to have the end result of having such a tool, but also for the experience of learning the parts of the plan9 system and techniques required to build it. That is what I have done in the past, and what I continue to do. -Steve
Re: [9fans] [Off-topic] Scifi
Hi ! Much of them i've read !!! ;) 2009/1/16 Rodolfo kix Garcia > Hi! > > I found these articles about scifi. Are the top tep books of scifi (NY > Times) and the 20 Ten geek books. > > > http://www.papelenblanco.com/2009/01/14-los-10-mejores-libros-de-ciencia-ficcion-segun-el-times > http://www.papelenblanco.com/2007/08/30-el-top-20-de-literatura-geek > > The links are in spanish. The author names and the titles are not too > different between english and spanish :-) > > kix. > > -- С наилучшими пожеланиями Жилкин Сергей With best regards Zhilkin Sergey
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 3:28 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: >> >> I seem to remember Mjl, the author if the inferno ircfs, wrote an >> ircfs for Plan 9 ages ago. Still, seems like a total waste of time >> when you have a perfectly fine one in limbo, which is a much more >> convenient language for building such a thing anyway. >> > > the op said he was running plan 9. if we take that as a > reasonable thing to be doing, then it makes sense to > want to run native plan 9 programs for a number of > reasons. first, if the op doesn't have any inferno running > already, he doesn't need to install and figure out how > to run it. not that this is hard, but it is important to > admit this is an extra step. once installed, plan 9 tools > like ps and kill won't work on inferno procs. so one > need to either deal with the disconnect or write some > scripts to make it less evident. > > none of this is specific to plan 9 and inferno. the same > could be said using bsd and 9vx or linux and a browser > running browser procs. > > so, since an ircfs is not a huge project, i don't think > it's unreasonable to write one for plan 9. it's what i > would do. > > - erik > > Yeah, I think your arguments make perfectly sense. I would still be interested to know whether Akshat had the same thoughts in mind:)
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
Or have a native Limbo compiler; I've been itching for that for some time, but I've much else on my hands. One day when free... On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 9:28 AM, erik quanstrom wrote: > > > > I seem to remember Mjl, the author if the inferno ircfs, wrote an > > ircfs for Plan 9 ages ago. Still, seems like a total waste of time > > when you have a perfectly fine one in limbo, which is a much more > > convenient language for building such a thing anyway. > > > > the op said he was running plan 9. if we take that as a > reasonable thing to be doing, then it makes sense to > want to run native plan 9 programs for a number of > reasons. first, if the op doesn't have any inferno running > already, he doesn't need to install and figure out how > to run it. not that this is hard, but it is important to > admit this is an extra step. once installed, plan 9 tools > like ps and kill won't work on inferno procs. so one > need to either deal with the disconnect or write some > scripts to make it less evident. > > none of this is specific to plan 9 and inferno. the same > could be said using bsd and 9vx or linux and a browser > running browser procs. > > so, since an ircfs is not a huge project, i don't think > it's unreasonable to write one for plan 9. it's what i > would do. > > - erik > > -- And in the "Only Prolog programmers will find this funny" department: Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: No. -- Ovid "By cosmic rule, as day yields night, so winter summer, war peace, plenty famine. All things change. Air penetrates the lump of myrrh, until the joining bodies die and rise again in smoke called incense." "Men do not know how that which is drawn in different directions harmonises with itself. The harmonious structure of the world depends upon opposite tension like that of the bow and the lyre." "This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures" -- Heraclitus
[9fans] usb questions
1) Is someone currently working on or has some stuff prepared for EHCI support for plan9? 2) I found that usbd has sometimes problems with replugging a usb device. After killing usbd and restrating it anything works fine. But this has the disadvantage that I loose other previously started usb drivers like for example a usb/usbaudio running in another window. It would be nice if can be made possible that you plug a device in and usbd activates it and then send a plumbing message. Then some plumber rules can start up the apropriate fileserver. In the same way 'Local mount ...' works. Here should be a generic rule that these usb driver filesystems just exit if they encouter problems during device pulling so the whole thing can start over when the device is plugged in again. Does that make any sense? -- cinap
Re: [9fans] usb questions
We are working on a new usb set of drivers, with hot plugging. usbd is now able to fire up drivers if necessary. Ehci will come later. But don´t hold your breath. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:33 AM, wrote: > 1) > Is someone currently working on or has some stuff prepared for EHCI > support for plan9? > > 2) > I found that usbd has sometimes problems with replugging a usb > device. After killing usbd and restrating it anything works fine. But > this has the disadvantage that I loose other previously started usb > drivers like for example a usb/usbaudio running in another window. > > It would be nice if can be made possible that you plug a device in and > usbd activates it and then send a plumbing message. Then some plumber > rules can start up the apropriate fileserver. In the same way 'Local mount > ...' > works. Here should be a generic rule that these usb driver filesystems just > exit if they encouter problems during device pulling so the whole thing > can start over when the device is plugged in again. Does that make any > sense? > > -- > cinap > > > > >
[9fans] boot hanging ...
Hello all - I recently added a USB 2.0 PCMCIA card to the array of crutches my old laptop uses ... and have found that when I attempt to log on to my Plan 9 install, booting hangs with the following line #U/usb0: uhci: port 0xBF80 irq 11 ... if I leave the card (and by association what is plugged into the card) plugged in). If I remove the card, no problem. But I often forget to remove the card when I boot so was wondering what sort of problem I have here and whether there is another way 'round it. I am very slowly working my way into being able to actually do things in Plan 9. :) It is like a blast of cold air on my age-ing brain, so that's a good thing, I think. One other note which I am loath to post but I have searched the 9fans list and cannot find whatever resource/message I may have used before ... graphics seem extremely sluggish on this box. IIRC I was told to adjust the value of "dmamode" in plan9.ini ... but that may be incorrect, and I have adjusted that value to "off" with little or no change. In short things seem to re-paint quite slowly. This is on an old (ca 2001) Dell laptop (Inspiron 4100, 997mHz PIII). I recall either posting about this before or getting help from some other venue, but (all too obviously) I didn't keep adequate notes. Thanks for any pointers, Glenn +-+ Glenn Becker - burni...@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org +-+
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
>Or have a native Limbo compiler; I've been itching for that for some time, it doesn't mean anything.
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
Uh, considering that ircfs is for Inferno (via Limbo), having a Limbo compiler to native Plan9 would be a potential solution, assuming the run time could be kept the same. On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Charles Forsyth wrote: > >Or have a native Limbo compiler; I've been itching for that for some time, > > it doesn't mean anything. > > -- And in the "Only Prolog programmers will find this funny" department: Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: No. -- Ovid "By cosmic rule, as day yields night, so winter summer, war peace, plenty famine. All things change. Air penetrates the lump of myrrh, until the joining bodies die and rise again in smoke called incense." "Men do not know how that which is drawn in different directions harmonises with itself. The harmonious structure of the world depends upon opposite tension like that of the bow and the lyre." "This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures" -- Heraclitus
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
> > >Or have a native Limbo compiler; I've been itching for that for some time, > > > > it doesn't mean anything. > > Uh, considering that ircfs is for Inferno (via Limbo), having a Limbo > compiler to native Plan9 would be a potential solution, assuming the run > time could be kept the same. de top-posted for your reading pleasure. the reason that a native limbo compiler doesn't make any sense is that inferno is not a virtual cpu, it is a virtual system, complete with system calls, file system access, etc. of course, this is the right way to do things since inferno needs to run natively and on top of other systems like windows as well as natively. i've heard that it was the opinion of some at the labs in the early days of plan 9 (can anyone confirm?) that plan 9 was a way to glue the unixes together. if that's what plan 9 is, then one should have a fs to make an inferno's /proc appear nativeish. but it's not clear to me that one could bridge enough of the gap to make this anything other than an annoyance. for example, what if you wanted to debug an inferno process? - erik
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
Well, actually, I was thinking of something along the lines of Lisaac: "dynamic" modules are statically compiled ala object files, & the run time handles issues between Plan9 & Inferno. Sys->load & the like would not be dynamic, but would work as expected. Hell, it could even just be a .Net/perl2exe clone: every binary is just an ultra-cut down Dis + compiled modules. I like the Lisaac model better, and that's where I was hedging my bets; I have a bunch of notes on my local Inferno install, but nothing to show due to more pressing issues. C'est la vie. & debugging this would require a 9Limbo-aware debugger; the .Net-style approach could serve a /lproc or the like though (not that the native one couldn't, but the VMish approach could have hooks for stopping execution). $0.02 On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 5:26 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: > > > >Or have a native Limbo compiler; I've been itching for that for some > time, > > > > > > it doesn't mean anything. > > > > Uh, considering that ircfs is for Inferno (via Limbo), having a Limbo > > compiler to native Plan9 would be a potential solution, assuming the run > > time could be kept the same. > > de top-posted for your reading pleasure. > > the reason that a native limbo compiler doesn't make any > sense is that inferno is not a virtual cpu, it is a virtual > system, complete with system calls, file system access, > etc. of course, this is the right way to do things since > inferno needs to run natively and on top of other systems > like windows as well as natively. > > i've heard that it was the opinion of some at the labs > in the early days of plan 9 (can anyone confirm?) that > plan 9 was a way to glue the unixes together. if that's > what plan 9 is, then one should have a fs to make an > inferno's /proc appear nativeish. but it's not clear to > me that one could bridge enough of the gap to make > this anything other than an annoyance. for example, > what if you wanted to debug an inferno process? > > - erik > > -- And in the "Only Prolog programmers will find this funny" department: Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: No. -- Ovid "By cosmic rule, as day yields night, so winter summer, war peace, plenty famine. All things change. Air penetrates the lump of myrrh, until the joining bodies die and rise again in smoke called incense." "Men do not know how that which is drawn in different directions harmonises with itself. The harmonious structure of the world depends upon opposite tension like that of the bow and the lyre." "This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures" -- Heraclitus
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
> Well, actually, I was thinking of something along the lines of Lisaac: > "dynamic" modules are statically compiled ala object files, & the run time > handles issues between Plan9 & Inferno. Sys->load & the like would not be > dynamic, but would work as expected. Hell, it could even just be a > .Net/perl2exe clone: every binary is just an ultra-cut down Dis + compiled > modules. I like the Lisaac model better, and that's where I was hedging my > bets; I have a bunch of notes on my local Inferno install, but nothing to > show due to more pressing issues. C'est la vie. > & debugging this would require a 9Limbo-aware debugger; the .Net-style > approach could serve a /lproc or the like though (not that the native one > couldn't, but the VMish approach could have hooks for stopping execution). > $0.02 perhaps i wasn't clear. so please forgive me for repeating myself and charles. this is exactly the type approach that i was pointing out would not work. it won't work because inferno provides an environment. the inferno vm will not be able to replicate the environment without also dragging large parts of the inferno kernel along. but the consequence of doing this will make inferno procs fundamentally different from plan 9 procs. if you're not convinced of this, try this thought experiment. suppose an inferno proc accesses a # device. and suppose further that this device is different in plan 9 and inferno. how do you bridge the cap in both directions so that neither inferno nor plan 9 is aware of the joke? - erik
Re: [9fans] Les Misérables
Inline On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 6:52 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: > > Well, actually, I was thinking of something along the lines of Lisaac: > > "dynamic" modules are statically compiled ala object files, & the run > time > > handles issues between Plan9 & Inferno. Sys->load & the like would not be > > dynamic, but would work as expected. Hell, it could even just be a > > .Net/perl2exe clone: every binary is just an ultra-cut down Dis + > compiled > > modules. I like the Lisaac model better, and that's where I was hedging > my > > bets; I have a bunch of notes on my local Inferno install, but nothing to > > show due to more pressing issues. C'est la vie. > > & debugging this would require a 9Limbo-aware debugger; the .Net-style > > approach could serve a /lproc or the like though (not that the native one > > couldn't, but the VMish approach could have hooks for stopping > execution). > > $0.02 > > perhaps i wasn't clear. so please forgive me for repeating > myself and charles. > No, I understand actually, but we're talking past each other. Despite being an ass, I'm not nearly as stupid as you may think. > > this is exactly the type approach that i was pointing out > would not work. it won't work because inferno provides an > environment. the inferno vm will not be able to replicate > the environment without also dragging large parts of the > inferno kernel along. but the consequence of doing this > will make inferno procs fundamentally different from > plan 9 procs. > Understood; you'll note I never say port Inferno's everything to run atop Plan9 (Dis does this fine enough). I meant an static collection of Limbo modules could be shoe-horned into a binary. I'm talking about Limbo the language; there would be numerous differences between a 'native' limbo & the hosted one. For one, dynamic loading wouldn't work. Another is the thought experiment you provide below. Certain things could be abstracted, other things would have to go. I don't want an libinferno. > > if you're not convinced of this, try this thought experiment. > suppose an inferno proc accesses a # device. and suppose > further that this device is different in plan 9 and inferno. > how do you bridge the cap in both directions so that neither > inferno nor plan 9 is aware of the joke? > Again, a native limbo might be different; a programmer might have to handle such things, much like the way C programmers have to handle the differences between Plan9 & everything else. I like Limbo the *language*, most of which could be abstracted to run atop Plan9 fine methinks. I don't think I'll be running wm/wm anytime soon, nor did I ever say that. Given that Limbo is modular, reads of # devices could be handled by a plan9_limbo & an inferno_limbo module, with the same "interface". I don't see this as a major issue stopping Limbo *the language* from being brought into native use. *shrug* > - erik > > -- And in the "Only Prolog programmers will find this funny" department: Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: No. -- Ovid "By cosmic rule, as day yields night, so winter summer, war peace, plenty famine. All things change. Air penetrates the lump of myrrh, until the joining bodies die and rise again in smoke called incense." "Men do not know how that which is drawn in different directions harmonises with itself. The harmonious structure of the world depends upon opposite tension like that of the bow and the lyre." "This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures" -- Heraclitus
Re: [9fans] Les Mis?rables
>Although there is already an ircfs for Inferno, since I don't want to run >Inferno >outside of Plan 9, and certainly not over a remote connection to Plan 9 (these >also being my only options -- unless someone wants to start creating drivers >for >Atheros wireless cards), I've begun work on an FS backed IRC client for native >Plan 9. Steve Q. When did supporting Atheros wireless cards stop being a solution? As a High School senior, I have tons of time on my hands, but very little experince. Therefore, I am could be handed the sorce for a working wifi driver and replicate it for Atheros based cards (using my current linux wifi driver for reference). In other words, could someone point me in the right direction? thanks, Jimmy
