Re: [9fans] 2nd Edition
On Mon Aug 18 17:18:07 EDT 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I'm trying to track down a copy of the Nextstation kernel sources, but not > having much luck. > Geoff Collyer informed me that Steve Jobs has personally said "no" to > distribution of the sources > except under the 2nd Edition license, and that therefore, my only option > would be to acquire a > used CD/manual set. Are there many 2nd Edition licensees still on this list? > I really didn't want > to have to post this, but since Bell Labs isn't selling these anymore, would > anyone be willing to help me out? > > Many thanks in advance! this setup reminds me of the story about the priest who, playing golf against the orders of his superiors on sunday morning, hits a hole in one. supposing you're successful in getting a licence and you do great things with the next port. who are you going to tell? - erik
Re: [9fans] 9pfuse on mac os x
The culprit was simply the structure changes in MacFUSE version of fuse_kernel.h, at least for the Leopard versions that are now distributed. I've got a patch that I'm forwarding to Russ and anyone else interested in the changes. Not tested on Tiger as I'm no longer running that version of the OS--that doesn't mean it shouldn't be supported, just means it will take a bit longer for me to test the changes there. -jas
[9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code. Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, what is the Acme way of approaching it? I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for others trying to learn Acme. 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display 03. Display line numbers 04. Display ruler 05. Rectangluar block selection 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs 08. Syntax highlighting of code 09. Code folding 10. Code clips/completion 11. Bookmarks 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line 14. Customize the color scheme 15. Change fonts 16. HTML tag matching 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor 18. Display right-to-left text Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser: 19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Wendell xe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try > (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing > with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even > remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code. > You have to learn it. If you want emacs and vi, you won't get them with acme -- besides, you already had them, remember? Acme is a very nice tool. But you have to climb the learning curve, and there's no escaping it. I don't know how else to put it. Most times, I use acme, but still use emacs and vi as well. They are different. FWIW, there's lots of people who think emacs and vi are a joke for code use, and use the more sophisticated IDEs out there. To each his own. ron
Re: [9fans] 2nd Edition
>this setup reminds me of the story about the priest who, playing golf >against the orders of his superiors on sunday morning, hits a hole in one. ouch. >supposing you're successful in getting a licence and you do great things >with the next port. who are you going to tell? > >- erik Does the license prevent updating the port as well??
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
> 03. Display line numbers
> 04. Display ruler
> 05. Rectangluar block selection
> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
> 08. Syntax highlighting of code
> 09. Code folding
> 10. Code clips/completion
> 11. Bookmarks
> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
> 14. Customize the color scheme
i don't see how any of these would be useful
to me. in particular, i especially do not want
a ruler or any ascii-graphical bits. if i want a
typesetter, i'll use one.
if you are the type who wants a hammer with
an lcd temperature display, i would venture
that plan 9 tools are not for you.
> 16. HTML tag matching
this could be a useful addition. it's an easy fix.
> 15. Change fonts
B2 "Font $fontname". B2 means select with the
middle button. for example,
Font /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font
> 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor
B2 ">unicode -n `{cat}"
> 18. Display right-to-left text
this is a plan 9 "limitation". although it is an
interesting philisophical question if a text
editor should get involved in such complications.
it seems to me that the zero-width combiners and
directional markers make unicode poor-man's
metafont masquerading as a character set.
then again, i'm a well-known luddite.
- erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Going by your list, I would conclude your code is something in the vein of Java plus web stuff, maybe even J2EE, or maybe the scourge of the editing world, Python. If that's the case and you have to deal with other people's code, Acme is probably not going to help you very much. In fact Acme will make the shortcomings of any code you are looking at a lot more obvious. For me, that's a crucial thing. Keeps my code in check purely through the text of it. Acme's strengths lie in navigating, writing and changing code that is of a certain standard. Just my thoughts, Robby
Re: [9fans] 2nd Edition
>>supposing you're successful in getting a licence and you do great things >>with the next port. who are you going to tell? >> >>- erik > > Does the license prevent updating the port as well?? didn't you already determine that the next port is unobtainable without a 2d edition license? doesn't that imply that your modifications would not be useful without a 2d edition licence? i don't mean to be a wet rag, but i think you could accomplish a lot more with less work with some cheep embedded computers. there are a number of arm/mips machines for under $100 that are 10x as fast as the next. the ti beagle board seems pretty interesting. - erik
Re: [9fans] 2nd Edition
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:28 AM, erik quanstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > didn't you already determine that the next port is unobtainable > without a 2d edition license? doesn't that imply that your > modifications would not be useful without a 2d edition licence? > > i don't mean to be a wet rag, but i think you could accomplish > a lot more with less work with some cheep embedded computers. > there are a number of arm/mips machines for under $100 that are > 10x as fast as the next. the ti beagle board seems pretty interesting. You mean like this? Low cost 200MHz ARM single board computer, LAN, USB, UARTs, D-IO, A/D, D/A, from $65. * 200MHz ARM 9 processor 100MHz system bus. 32-64MB SDRAM,4-32MB FLASH * 10/100 baseT Ethernet * 2 USB 2.0 port * 2 UARTs * A/D converter * D/A converter * Digital I/O * SPI expansion http://www.embedded-computing.com/products/search/fm/id/?24840 I'm lost on the next thing too. I don't see the point. ron
Re: [9fans] 2nd Edition
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 7:58 PM, ron minnich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You mean like this? > Low cost 200MHz ARM single board computer, LAN, USB, UARTs, D-IO, A/D, > D/A, from $65. > >* 200MHz ARM 9 processor 100MHz system bus. 32-64MB SDRAM,4-32MB FLASH >* 10/100 baseT Ethernet >* 2 USB 2.0 port >* 2 UARTs >* A/D converter >* D/A converter >* Digital I/O >* SPI expansion > http://www.embedded-computing.com/products/search/fm/id/?24840 > > I'm lost on the next thing too. I don't see the point. > > ron > > Heck, just stick one (or more) of these with a LCD panel in one of the many dim/fuzzy N4000A displays floating around... I bet you could have 8 SBC's, the display, a switch and power supply, and still have room enough to stash an entire Babylon-5 DVD collection.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> what is the Acme way of approaching it? > 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping > 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display Write shorter lines. > 03. Display line numbers You can go to a specific line with :n and find out the current line with Edit = > 04. Display ruler If you really care, you can make a little file called ruler that contains the text you want and then just open the file in a window above the one you are editing. But the Acme way is not to care what column you're on. Just say no. > 05. Rectangluar block selection Someone posted a C program once that interpreted the current selection as a rectangular block (starting in the column where the selection began, ending in the column where it ended, and spanning the lines that it spans) and replaced each subline with a given piece of text. But again, just say no. > 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item Put the cursor at the top of the file. In the tag, type and select Edit .+#0/old/c/new/ and middle click it. That will search for old, replace it with new, and scroll the file to highlight and show the replacement. If you don't like that change, you middle click Undo. Either way, middle clicking the Edit command will find and change the next occurrence. So you can just sit there middle clicking the Edit command until you find one that you didn't mean to change, Undo, and then go back to middle clicking Edit. Selecting the command in the tag keeps acme from moving the mouse to the changed selection, so that it is easier to repeat the command. > 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs Just say no. If you are forced to use spaces, acme -a makes them a bit more bearable by filling in the previous line's indentation when you type Enter. > 08. Syntax highlighting of code Just say no. > 09. Code folding This is interesting but doesn't fit easily into the model. I do wish there were a way to do this, and not just for folding code. But it would probably break the very deep assumption in acme that window contents are ordinary text streams. Acme gets a lot of benefit from that one decision, but this might be one of the drawbacks. On the other hand, not having code folding means that you have to write good code to begin with. Code folding might be the C++ equivalent of Emacs paren matching for Lisp: The various ML dialects share the same flaw in their syntax. They lack a simple property I call editor friendliness. An editor friendly language has the property that a simple calculation is all that is needed to locate the beginning of an expression when one is at the end of an expression. As you can guess, Lisp is a very editor friendly language. Because of this fact, an experienced Emacs user realizes nearly all of the benefits of structure based editing without suffering from its restrictions. --- John D. Ramsdell The various Lisp dialects share the same flaw in their syntax. They lack a simple property I call human friendliness. A human friendly language has the property that syntactic constructs are different enough from one another that a simple visual inspection is all that is needed to locate the beginning of an expression when one is at the end of an expression. As you can guess, Lisp is a very human unfriendly language. Because of this fact, an experienced Lisp user realizes that it is virtually impossible to write Lisp programs of any size without substantial mechanical assistance. --- Andrew Koenig You're better off writing code that doesn't need folding to be read. > 10. Code clips/completion Just say no. > 11. Bookmarks Make a file with things like /sys/src/cmd/acme/scrl.c /sys/src/cmd/acme/scrl.c:100 /sys/src/cmd/acme/scrl.c:/^mousethread and open it. > 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows Personally, I'm happy with running diff -n and right-clicking the headers to display a particular section in context. This is actually better than the locked windows because at any point you can go do something else and then come back to it. > 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line Just say no. > 14. Customize the color scheme Just say no. > 15. Change fonts As Erik pointed out, there is a Font command that applies to the whole window. Changing fonts inside the text would break the text model. > 16. HTML tag matching Easy external program. > 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor As Erik pointed out, you can always cut and paste a character and feed it to the "unicode" program. You don't even need Erik's > command. Just type the word unicode (or "unicode -n") in a tag somewhere, highlight the letter you want, and then 2-1 click unicode. > 18. Display right-to-left text This is essentially left as an exercise to the interested user. There are a lot of difficult issues here, and non
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
This is all as far as I know how to use acme (mind you I haven't stretched acme out as far as the other guys might have)... On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Wendell xe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try > (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing > with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even > remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code. > Isn't "I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive..." seem a tad harsh? :-) It is just a little different than what you normally use. Acme is pretty powerful. And how I answer your questions below might shed light with you on how it is used. > Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn > Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm > posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, what is > the Acme way of approaching it? > > I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for others > trying to learn Acme. > > 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping You can't. It always wraps lines around. > 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display Edit ,x/\n/ c/\n/ Undo :-) > 03. Display line numbers Edit = ...will show the line number where dot is, but to display the line number to the side of each line. I have no use for such a thing so I haven't even thought about it at all as I use acme. > 04. Display ruler No such thing in acme. > 05. Rectangluar block selection No such thing in acme. > 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item Place in the tagline your edit line, Edit s/oldtext/newtext/ 1. B3-sweep or B3 your text to search 2. B2 your edit line repeat process from 1 till you are happy > 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs No automatic tab-to-space replacements. Naturally you can do it from an Edit command. > 08. Syntax highlighting of code No such thing in acme. > 09. Code folding No such thing built-in to acme. > 10. Code clips/completion Place cursor where you want to insert text and use the '<' command and provide the command that outputs your text. OR B2-sweep your keyword, and use the '|' command, and provide the command that will accept the keyword and spit out the corresponding text. > 11. Bookmarks Have a separate bookmark file (or maybe even in the tag line before you do a Dump), that uses the filepath:linenumber format and just B3 the 'bookmarks'. > 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows Acme doesn't have a built-in 'diff mode' > 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line If you mean dynamically change available commands in the tag line as you move around your code, no there is no such thing. (It might be an interesting acme file server exercise). If you mean preserve common commands that you use often for the current work you are doing you can just place the stuff you want in the tag line and Dump/Load it or pre-load a Guide file. > 14. Customize the color scheme Edit the acme code, recompile and enjoy :-) :-) :-) No color scheme changing stuff built-in to acme. I know some people want their baby green, polka dot inspired color schemes but acme isn't about that. :-) > 15. Change fonts The Font command does this as well as the command line parameters to Acme, please see manual. > 16. HTML tag matching If you mean automatic tag completion, you can do that using my suggestion in 10. If you mean just matching the start and end tags, acme does not have that built-in or something but you can code (or use Edit?) for that > 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor Eric already answered that. > 18. Display right-to-left text Eric already answered that. > > Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser: > > 19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a desktop > full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree. I think some of the other guys have made slight code changes so that acme will do what you stated, so you'd need to really modify the acme code, recompile and enjoy. The other guys might have even better suggestions. Resistance is futile, you _will_ be assimilated. :-) Best Regards, Mon
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote:
01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
03. Display line numbers
04. Display ruler
05. Rectangluar block selection
06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
08. Syntax highlighting of code
09. Code folding
10. Code clips/completion
11. Bookmarks
12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
14. Customize the color scheme
Acme is not an IDE. It is a text editor. If you want these facilities,
implement them yourself. That's what the source is provided for.
Some of your ideas can be implemented as external programs.
3. awk '{ print NR, $0 }' file
7. sed 's/ //g' file > file2 && mv file2 file
12. This is harder. I suggest a program that works like so:
% pdiff a.c b.c
#include
#include
int a; char a;
void
main(void) q(void)
{
...
What I suggest is to see how idiff(1) works. idiff merges two files
by allowing you to select which difference to use. The source is /sys/
src/cmd/idiff.c.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> For me, that's a crucial thing. Keeps my code in check purely through > the text of it. If I understand what you are saying I find this is really interesting. I many of the prople I work with use syntax highlighting editors and I often find their code difficult to read (I use sam). In the way that the labs used to keep (I believe) an old alpha system to keep the code "honest" (64bit and endian clean), I print out my code from time to time to make sure its readable, to keep it honest. perhaps its my age. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
11. Bookmarks
Typically handled by 'guide' files. I.e. a file, open in an acme window,
full of B3-able search strings. E.g.:
foo.c:/^main
Also useful with B2-able command strings:
grep -n 'where_is_this_function_called_from\(' *.c
slay program | rc
--lyndon
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 7. sed 's/ //g' file > file2 && mv file2 file rest in peace file2. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9. None of the features you need or want are supported in Acme out-of-the-box. Not in any sane, meaningful way. And if you tell the 9people you need them or want them they'll either tell you it isn't "worth" it, or it isn't "meant" to be done that way, or go "do it yourself." They don't understand some people use computers for different reasons than wasting their time "for" computers, and in ways far different from their way. That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development." In any case, Acme is "not" comparable to vi or emacs. Themselves far inferior to Microsoft Visual Studio, from a practical standpoint. You're coding on Windows, go for VS .NET Express Edition, free as the air you breathe but not free as the thoughts you think. You're coding on some UNIX-like, go for vi or emacs, a matter of taste--I like vi better. You're "coding" on Plan 9--makes me feel sorry for you--well, Acme is the "best" thing you can expect. Inbreeding is bound to bring out the worst of recessive traits; savor them :-P Finally, if you're going to stay with the 9madness I wish you very good luck. You're going to need it. Really. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:52 AM -0700 Wendell xe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code. Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, what is the Acme way of approaching it? I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for others trying to learn Acme. 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display 03. Display line numbers 04. Display ruler 05. Rectangluar block selection 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs 08. Syntax highlighting of code 09. Code folding 10. Code clips/completion 11. Bookmarks 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line 14. Customize the color scheme 15. Change fonts 16. HTML tag matching 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor 18. Display right-to-left text Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser: 19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
I admit we all use plan 9 just to justify ourselves to read and write threads like the one this post might trigger on 9fans. For everything else, we use DOS, which is windows simplified, along with edlin. On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9. None of the > features you need or want are supported in Acme out-of-the-box. Not in any > sane, meaningful way. And if you tell the 9people you need them or want them > they'll either tell you it isn't "worth" it, or it isn't "meant" to be done > that way, or go "do it yourself." They don't understand some people use > computers for different reasons than wasting their time "for" computers, and > in ways far different from their way. > > That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone > through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just > isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a "research" > platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and > how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder > it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's > "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development." > > In any case, Acme is "not" comparable to vi or emacs. Themselves far > inferior to Microsoft Visual Studio, from a practical standpoint. You're > coding on Windows, go for VS .NET Express Edition, free as the air you > breathe but not free as the thoughts you think. You're coding on some > UNIX-like, go for vi or emacs, a matter of taste--I like vi better. You're > "coding" on Plan 9--makes me feel sorry for you--well, Acme is the "best" > thing you can expect. Inbreeding is bound to bring out the worst of > recessive traits; savor them :-P > > Finally, if you're going to stay with the 9madness I wish you very good > luck. You're going to need it. Really. > > --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:52 AM -0700 Wendell xe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try >> (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and >> playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be >> even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code. >> >> Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn >> Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm >> posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, >> what is the Acme way of approaching it? >> >> I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for >> others trying to learn Acme. >> >> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping >> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display >> 03. Display line numbers >> 04. Display ruler >> 05. Rectangluar block selection >> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item >> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs >> 08. Syntax highlighting of code >> 09. Code folding >> 10. Code clips/completion >> 11. Bookmarks >> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows >> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line >> 14. Customize the color scheme >> 15. Change fonts >> 16. HTML tag matching >> 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor >> 18. Display right-to-left text >> >> Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser: >> >> 19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a >> desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development." Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network to a mobile phone or without running a million commands. If you are not like that, leave.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> Plan 9 and the related software just > isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). Sorry, I have to bite. Its because I want to "Get my job done"™ that I use plan9. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Sorry, I forgot to finish my comments: Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. If you are not like that, leave. On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:25 PM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote: On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development." Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network to a mobile phone or without running a million commands. If you are not like that, leave.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> It's a "research" > platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and > how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what would have given me that idea. > No wonder > it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's > "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development." also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed to be using. [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey, ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'', .I UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. , London, England, 1990. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
relax -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
You might give Sam a try. I'm still working my way up to Acme too, but Sam has an edge over vi for me... ...Might be nice if there was an option to open a document in a default window though, but if it were a big enough concern, I've got the source and could make the change... :) -Ben <>
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay? "Just lurking," I overheard the "hackers" say. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:12 PM -0600 andrey mirtchovski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. You have nothing else but "researching" OS's and "submitting" papers. That "justifies" your 9life. Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Like knowing which character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. --On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:14 AM +0200 Francisco J Ballesteros <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I admit we all use plan 9 just to justify ourselves to read and write threads like the one this post might trigger on 9fans. For everything else, we use DOS, which is windows simplified, along with edlin.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Wed, 2008-08-20 at 00:27 +0100, Eris Discordia wrote: > No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having > written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change > my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. You have nothing else but > "researching" OS's and "submitting" papers. That "justifies" your 9life. > Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Evidently not... (Or you'd be doing it now). > Like knowing which character > on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text > get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. jcc
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Wrong on so many levels. Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's _right_ on so many levels. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]" Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes through." "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. If you are not like that, leave. No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's originator. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:25 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development." Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network to a mobile phone or without running a million commands. If you are not like that, leave.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Its because I want to "Get my job done"™ that I use plan9. Bite if you please. Hook, line, and sinker ;-) What's your job? 1. Maintaining a Plan 9 system? 2. Programming a Plan 9 system? 3. Researching a Plan 9 system? 4. Or you got some job other than jobs created _around_ Plan 9 and you use Plan 9? (1) through (3) mean Plan 9 is your "job." You feed off of it. Dealing with its quirks is your business. Well, that's your lot. Others are probably luckier. If your "job" is not 1-3 and you have a "computer job" tell me who has allowed you to use a research platform in production environment? Are you at Rangboom or Coraid, or implementing one of the _few_ applications Plan 9 has found in the "Real World?" Are you a freelancer? What sort of customers do you have? What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"--a la vanity-- and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:26 PM +0100 Steve Simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Plan 9 and the related software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). Sorry, I have to bite. Its because I want to "Get my job done"™ that I use plan9. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Iruata Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > 7. sed 's/ //g' file > file2 && mv file2 file > > rest in peace file2. > > iru > We barely knew you?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]" Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes through." Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/ keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug. "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. My rhetoric is not empty. I am not saying go ahead and write that 9P. I'm saying the jobs are trivial, only three lines of rc: gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp# Demonstration; don't try this motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you? As for filesystem usage, echo fsys all df | con -l /srv/fscons Go look up the source for GNU df, and tell me if it's that simple. If you are not like that, leave. No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's originator. Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your eyes. On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"-- a la vanity-- and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3. - Programming in userland: mainly compiler design, along with a few other projects. - Document typesetting (I love troff). That's not on your list, is it? - Goofing off: lots of free games The point of this all? Plan 9 is not JUST a research system. It is a complete operating system. It has great tools for making greater tools, or for just increasing (or decreasing) your productivity. If you're too blunt to care, fuck off. You've done that to us already, on many occasions.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
I'm cool. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:46 PM -0300 "Federico G. Benavento" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: relax -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what would have given me that idea. Somebody would make a bad choice anyway. Microsoft shipped "thousands" of copies of Microsoft Bob before they learnt about their mistake. Let's see if your company, founded 2000, survives its Coraid Bob. And I hear your primary source of sustenance is an AoE driver for _Linux_. You're leeching another OS's user base and boasting doing Plan 9? Where would you be without "Linux Support for EtherDrive (R) Storage?" (http://support.coraid.com/support/linux/) also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed to be using. [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey, ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'', .I UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. , London, England, 1990. Yes. According to Wikipedia: "It was developed as the research successor to Unix by the Computing Sciences Research Center at Bell Labs between the mid-1980s and 2002." Mid-1980s ~ 1985 Current date (here) = August 20, 2008 2008 - 1985 + 1 = 24. Update your table. Apparently, Plan 9 was being developed some years before the paper. You know, you gotta do something with the free time on your hand. Create an OS, for example. And pull a paper out of it after some years. By the way, what exactly happened to Plan 9 on 2002? Was it "dismantled?" Or did they shut the "furnace" down? --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:34 PM -0400 erik quanstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what would have given me that idea. No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development." also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed to be using. [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey, ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'', .I UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. , London, England, 1990. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Yes, try that. Sam has an "edge" over vi by being a desperate half-clone of ed. Is it sam that attaches a file named "winmail.dat" to your emails?! --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:03 PM -0700 Benjamin Huntsman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You might give Sam a try. I'm still working my way up to Acme too, but Sam has an edge over vi for me... ...Might be nice if there was an option to open a document in a default window though, but if it were a big enough concern, I've got the source and could make the change... :) -Ben
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Evidently not... (Or you'd be doing it now). Petty work is _petty_, you see. They give you some breaks during which you come to desolate mailing lists and upload enlightening orations. I know, it's a pretty miserable life--my life. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:36 PM -0700 Jonathan Cast <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 2008-08-20 at 00:27 +0100, Eris Discordia wrote: No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. You have nothing else but "researching" OS's and "submitting" papers. That "justifies" your 9life. Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Evidently not... (Or you'd be doing it now). Like knowing which character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. jcc
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
>Is it sam that attaches a file named "winmail.dat" to your emails?! No, though this has been discussed here before. It's a result of the fact that my e-mail is hosted on an Exchange server. winmail.dat gets generated to pass formatting data between OWA (which I use) and Outlook. It unfortunately cannot be turned off, even through the server admin tools. I am aware of it, and greatly appreciate the other list members tolerating it. -Ben <>
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Wrong on so many levels. > > Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's > _right_ on so many levels. > >> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. > > A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed > to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem... > GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? > >> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]" > > Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email > through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" > (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my > address. Let's see if "the mail goes through." > >> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices >> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from >> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the >> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million >> commands or typing a thousand lines of code. > > The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved > years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and > today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get > your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. > > Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does it > run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do > it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? > > Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. > >> If you are not like that, leave. > > No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post > was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's > originator. take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too angry. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too angry. Sir, yessir! The Marines don't do Japanese, sir! --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:31 PM -0300 Iruata Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Wrong on so many levels. Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's _right_ on so many levels. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]" Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes through." "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. If you are not like that, leave. No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's originator. take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too angry. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is supposed to mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes: "mechanism, not policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you determine its use. Russ Cox knows this better; he's the one at the MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy" goes as far as telling you to "not ask for a ruler" in your text editor (ruler in vi := a pair of numbers; column, row). Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug. Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be a 9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for a over a decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9 doesn't even deliver. Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove it. I don't even run Plan 9 anymore. Gave it up. Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]+0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS. Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal. gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp# Demonstration; don't try this motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it for you? $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 " $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/ (You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was removed when mammoths roamed the Earth) Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your "motorola." The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX it is much more likely that you find someone who solved it before. And it is much less likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way to do it." Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200 that runs a nice tiny Linux. Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you? Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you? The fs's are only abstraction layers. You could implement them on _any_ system. Given you were dour enough to do it. Writing a particular fs is a problem. Plan 9 doesn't make it any more trivial. Oh, don't tell me it's got 9P. 9P could be any text-based protocol. What's the difference between 9P-over-IP and HTTP? Or SOAP? Or XML-WS? Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your eyes. "Thank you." --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:30 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]" Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes through." Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug. "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the r
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
I have an idea, Eris. Why don't you fuck off and actually USE Plan 9 for once?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
philosophy,
not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of
where
to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
(Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)
I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is
supposed to mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes:
"mechanism, not policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you
determine its use. Russ Cox knows this better; he's the one at the
MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy" goes as far as telling you to "not ask
for a ruler" in your text editor (ruler in vi := a pair of numbers;
column, row).
No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy.
Go read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike
to see what I mean.
Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder
system).
How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark
symbol? Do
yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some
characters
and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my
point.
Otherwise, you found a bug.
Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be
a 9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for
a over a decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9
doesn't even deliver. Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove
it. I don't even run Plan 9 anymore. Gave it up.
Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]
+0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's
just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO
8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS.
Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal.
In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See
keyboard(6) to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't
need to keep the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f
a (the for all character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi)
gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp# Demonstration; don't
try this
motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555
cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg
Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it
for you?
$ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg
$ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 "
$ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell
$ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/
(You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was
removed when mammoths roamed the Earth)
Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your
"motorola." The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX
it is much more likely that you find someone who solved it before.
And it is much less likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way
to do it."
Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200
that runs a nice tiny Linux.
Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when
did curl come out?)
Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?
Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you?
It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system
calls. libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got
connected to an IP address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for
sockets. ("The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly")
Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just
open your
eyes.
"Thank you."
No comment.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
// Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Like knowing which // character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their // lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. Wait, your *job* is knowing where editor cursors are and how long lines are? Wow, that really sucks. No wonder you're so angry.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
eris, I agree, thanks. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
// Bite if you please. Hook, line, and sinker ;-) Oh, I'm waiting for a phone call before bed. What the hell. My job has nothing to do with your 1-3. I agree with Steve exactly: I use Plan 9 because it allows me to get my job done easier. My job includes some programming, some document writing, lots of reading. I've never been employed to count columns or fold lines. I use Acme (even when not on Plan 9) because, at least for me, the interface encourages good mental habits that help me produce quality stuff. I find the applications and interfaces in Plan 9 to be far more consistent and convenient than in other systems. That's true both for programming interfaces and user interfaces. This means I can let the system do its job and get out of my way without having to think about it as much as I do elsewhere. You're also engaging in all sorts of poor logic in the "No True Scotsman" family in order to try and exclude folks like Coraid who're really excellent counter-examples to your claims: they use Plan 9 not for (the benefit of) Plan 9, but because it allows them to build products (for other people who likely have no idea Plan 9 is involved) easier. If Acme (or Plan 9 generally) don't fit your style well, that's fine. If the interfaces don't have the same beneficial effects for you as they do for me, that's fine (academically, I might speculate on why). Feel free not to use it. But to imply that people who are actually using the system productively are either delusional or just don't exist is highly insulting. Anthony
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay? therapy?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9. should be "Just stay away from Acme if you aren't lucky enough to be stuck with Plan 9".
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
>> Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay? > > therapy? here is the scary.devil.monastery of old systems programmers, after all. :)
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
> No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having > written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change > my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. as i suspected, you're here for therapy. > You have nothing else but "researching" OS's and "submitting" papers. > That "justifies" your 9life. i can see you're bitter. > Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Like knowing which character > on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text > get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing acrobatics?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
When in doubt say something's shitty and try somother OS. You'll be back. Others have tried and failed with your strategy. brucee On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having >> written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change >> my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. > > as i suspected, you're here for therapy. > >> You have nothing else but "researching" OS's and "submitting" papers. >> That "justifies" your 9life. > > i can see you're bitter. > >> Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Like knowing which character >> on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text >> get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. > > and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing acrobatics? > > >
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Geoff! Why not let Eris read your paper on Why Plan 9 Matters?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Pietro why don't you shut up? You annoy my dog. brucee On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Geoff! Why not let Eris read your paper on Why Plan 9 Matters?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Just a few other bits of relevance to the original topic: On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote: 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs style(6) says not to convert tabs to spaces. 11. Bookmarks If you know what text the bookmark will point to, make a comment on the line above it: /* C comment */ .\" troff comment # rc/awk comment Set the comment to the text of the bookmark. Then, search for the text of the bookmark with the appropriate comment delimiters. Easy enough. 16. HTML tag matching An awk program can do this. The idea is to interpret tags as they come in the form of a stack: codestack html head html title head html title error: closing wrong tag You can also check to see if tags make sense or bad tags are nested. For example, don't see as normal, nor .
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
We've seen that, and go to band practice. Tell us all about. Just keep up the therapy and the medication. brucee On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just a few other bits of relevance to the original topic: > > On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote: >> >> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs > > style(6) says not to convert tabs to spaces. > >> 11. Bookmarks > > If you know what text the bookmark will point to, make a comment on the line > above it: >/* C comment */ >.\" troff comment ># rc/awk comment > Set the comment to the text of the bookmark. Then, search for the text of > the bookmark with the appropriate comment delimiters. Easy enough. > >> 16. HTML tag matching > > An awk program can do this. The idea is to interpret tags as they come in > the form of a stack: >codestack > html > head >html > title >head >html >title error: closing wrong tag > You can also check to see if tags make sense or bad tags are nested. For > example, don't see as normal, nor > . > > >
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]+0153 Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell? > $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg > $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 " ifconfig: only root can do that > $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell mount: only root can do that > $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/ cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied -sqweek
