8/002.html
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rather, I think that whole
debate is rather far afield from our project goals and would be a
distraction.
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martin f krafft writes:
> also sprach Russ Allbery [2014-08-26 19:24 -0700]:
>> +1. I believe Debian should only hold bitcoin if Debian
>> anticipates future expenses in bitcoin. Otherwise, it should
>> convert bitcoin to whatever currency in which expenses are
>>
We could start that any time -- it's common to survey people about
such things in advance of actually offering it.
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with a subject of &
So if there is significant demand to be
> able to make such donations, we should accept them.
Indeed. My concern is only with holding Bitcoin as Bitcoin. We
absolutely should accept donations via any mechanism that we can handle
without undue costs.
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hat information in mind. But while that may make it a
waste of time, that doesn't make it less important. That just makes it
unresolvable, which is a different problem.
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version (or, worse, be
flippant about it in a way that implies that Debian doesn't care about the
experience of people on its mailing lists or at its conferences) just
because you *think* you disagree with the motives of the person who raised
the issues.
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king
offense too readily." Just be aware that is NOT what many people in the
United States will take the term to mean. By using it, you are risking
allying yourself with people you probably do not want to be associated
with.
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Luk Claes writes:
> On 09/03/2014 07:21 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> What case? Ian raised a bunch of general questions about how we plan
>> on enforcing our CoC, with no reference to any specific incident. You
>> seem to be convinced that this is about some specific inc
moke to no constructive effect. I
realize that the curiousity of bystanders has been piqued (and it would
have been nice if we'd been able to have a conversation without doing
that, although that's a lot to ask), but honestly I think it would be more
rubbernecking than any foundation f
d from mailing lists is not exactly a major penalty or massive
interference with someone's life, nor does it cause immediate harm, so
having an after-the-fact appeal process seems sufficient.
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at I said and why people
found it sufficiently irritating to complain about it and for the
listmasters to agree. I certainly don't think some sort of complex public
process should be involved. The current approach seems far superior.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)
ses of generating the build system, given the license of the source
of the rest of the output files to which it contributes.)
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with a subje
the small tasks easy for non-members; until then,
they require more work to do properly or you just make more work for the
team in the long run.
The actual code may be extremely simple, only two or three lines. It's
getting the right lines in the right place in a way that works for the
p
ncome taxes.)
Given the nature of Debian, I suspect that our travel reimbursements
generally end up falling into one of the untaxed gift buckets of money, at
least in the US, so the same reasons wouldn't apply.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Ian Jackson writes:
> Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"):
>> We waited two years, during which positions hardened, people got
>> angrier and angrier, and there were increasing demands to force the
>> issue. Serious question: how mu
of regardless of the outcome of the current GR. I have strong
opinions, but I also have great faith in the members of this project and
in the project as a community. Sooner or later, this will all be behind
us; in the meantime, I'm going to work on enjoying collaborating with all
the great peop
w.
I've been running systemd for about a year now, and don't use the journal
at all except via systemctl status. I still grep /var/log because I
always take a long time to adopt a new tool. I noticed precisely zero
change when switching to systemd.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)
it's really hard, even though everyone is raw and upset, that's
what the project as a whole is asking us to do.
Are we up to the challenge?
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; been replaced by systemd events of some sort but I didn't really
> investigate.
Doubtful. It's probably just assuming logind instead of ConsoleKit, which
is something different than the systemd unit file support.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.
The Wanderer writes:
> On 01/19/2015 at 11:52 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Christian Mueller writes:
>>> Quite a few pieces I may or may not be willing to part with but
>>> the printer driver is something I definitely need. If I had to
>>> guess, I'd
quite happy to have just one implementation of something as long as I
can fork it when I need to change it. systemd is under the GPL, so I have
all the free software freedoms, so I'm happy -- if anything seriously bugs
me about it, I'll fork it with other like-minded people. If there aren&
Russell Stuart writes:
> On Tue, 2015-01-20 at 21:22 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Pretty sure there's no dependency on journald. I think you have to use
>> systemd's syslog passthrough if you're launching systems under systemd
>> as an init system (althou
just
*isn't* that any more, so it's to be expected that a lot of those people
are off working on something else that is: crypto, or social networks that
aren't driven by advertising and surveillance, or container deployment, or
trying to build a programming language that can finally r
ots), but that introduces a bunch of new
pain.
A clean way to let, e.g., Python modules at different versions co-exist
would be really nice, but it's a very hard problem. You'd probably have
to completely redesign the way that packages are built and deployed,
similar to what Nix does.
--
Rus
lem for smaller sites but something large web-scale sites have
probably solved in some way. Rebuilding the world is something that,
culturally, gets prioritized pretty highly. But the backporting problem
is still pretty nasty.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.or
g to take the time to establish a contribution track record
and go through the NM process, showing up at DebConf with a forged ID is
not increasing the difficulty of the attack by very much, nor is it
increasing the risk by all that much.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http:/
e licensing terms.
(Please note: this response is based mostly on the information included in
your message. I only looked cursorily at the actual license of Pale Moon
to confirm that it looks very non-free by our definitions.)
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://
e the luxury of making
idealistic but sometimes impractical choices. More power to you! That's
a great way of driving some things forward. But not everyone has that
luxury, and they can still can provide very positive contributions to the
project.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)
; initially thought that images.debian.org is more generic, but it's
> also likely to confuse people into looking there for pictures... :-)
install.debian.org? (get.debian.org is good too.)
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
oper set up a DNS record for some reason. It's completely
self-service, IIRC.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
are documented here:
https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
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o not clear that encrypting the package
download channel actually buys you much in terms of privacy, since an
attacker can still do quite a lot by correlating the amount of traffic
with the sizes of packages.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
other legal) action will require
> more than those hours, Conservancy will bill Debian for the extra time.
I thought we paid a retainer to the Software Freedom Law Center, not the
Software Freedom Conservancy. Am I confused?
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
ming of this message, it's a pretty obvious troll. If there
were a legitimate point, it could have been made any other day other than
this day. The only reason to choose today to post the original message is
to stir up shit.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
today. Please have some respect for
the recently deceased, who gave a great deal to the broader community
and built some amazing things.
Thank you, Ian, for everything that you built for all of us.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
experience with jessie), but I have no idea what this specific point
could even mean.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
hat doesn't mean that
they actually *have* infinite cake, since the auto-crafting requires a
mod, but maybe they wrote an in-house mod (since I can't imagine they'd
use the Internet ones).
Hm, although, without auto-crafting, they probably don't have enough
chests to store th
ary to some of our goals for stable.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
enefit here that I can see.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
cted in some way
to some blessed set of people, either by money or by some other legal
arrangement, which is the opposite of universal.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
fundamental UI issue in how email works, and I'm
dubious that creating another list will help much.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Clint Adams writes:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 02:31:12PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I'm extremely sympathetic to the problem you're trying to solve, but I
>> think it's a fairly fundamental UI issue in how email works, and I'm
>> dubious that creat
Clint Adams writes:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 03:17:20PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> It's important in order to make the project feel more welcoming and open.
> I bet that's truer than you think it is.
It's possible for it to be both true and ironic at the same ti
s that I *detest* when companies do it to me,
and which leaves me with a bad final impression of that organization, so
let's not. We already have enough (necessary) bureaucracy in our exit
process to properly deal with authentication.
"I no longer have the time or energy for Debian
s easier to handle as well.
In other words, I completely agree with you on the problem, but I feel
like you're tackling it from the wrong end, since hard cases make bad law.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
talking to other human beings, using your
name and not a role account, and not using some external specification
document. I think many of us get *way* more than we need of that sort of
thing in our day jobs, and in Debian we have the luxury of ignoring such
things completely. :)
--
agers everywhere is to guide people and
projects through whatever process is used by the larger organization.
If there's anyone out there reading this with project management
experience who has been wondering what they could volunteer to do to help
Debian immensely
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
so much that I prefer
forums that use a different format than users prefer as it is that I
prefer forums that don't have user questions. :|
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
same license, etc.
> I even coalesce copyright years for the same owner.
+1. I would strongly encourage people to do this wherever possible.
There doesn't seem to be much purpose served by being more granular,
unless it's a side effect of automatically generating the file or
someth
line, anyone on the Internet may be reading it.)
Anyway, I know that so far this is just one post and I'm missing a ton of
context here, and I'm not going to do anything rash or rush to judgement.
I just wanted to make sure anyone considering this is aware of the above
and the impl
el (I really value the diversity of human experience
in the project), but you might want to consider whether there are some
merits to dialing it back a bit, at least in the content you syndicate to
Planet Debian.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
pragmatic cautions with an attempt to fix the
system and blunt its worst abuses, with an understanding that we *need* a
functional criminal justice system to be a civilized society.
This means we live in a world of complicated tradeoffs and cautious,
fraught decisions rather than in a w
onclusions
from the data that's disclosed. This is just human nature, and is only
logical.
If we don't want that to happen, we shouldn't collect the data in the
first place.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Nikolaus Rath writes:
> On May 10 2017, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> and no conclusions should ever be drawn from it?
> I don't think anyone has said that.
Quoting from the originally proposed wiki page:
| The following people have added themselves to this list. No-one should
our lack of *incidents* from
having a smaller and differently-focused user base for a lack of
*vulnerability*.
The entire computer industry is vulnerable to attacks like this, and
Debian is absolutely not an exception.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
onments, eg via chroots and/or mixed systems and/or
> selective backporting.
Also a good point.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
services and make it more difficult to work with them. But that's not the
shape of ecosystem that we're dealing with right now.
(Conflict of interest disclosure: I currently work for Dropbox, although
not on the product side. I think the above opinion is the same I'd hold
if I d
he amount of effort
people would have to go to in order to untangle that mess, and the number
of our users who would immediately enable contrib who don't have it
enabled now, really worth it?
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
b.
I believe this would be hugely counter-productive for free software. It
would hurt us way more than it would hurt proprietary services.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
tware of type 2 kicked out of Debian, at least libraries of type 1 also
need to be allowed in Debian.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
ieve in Debian and figuring out how to
constructively help them achieve those goals. If one can put one's
objections in the form of a constructive patch, or at least a proposal for
the patch that should be written, that's a lot more valuable to the
project than just objecting.
ships.
There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
very legal system, appellate
process, or conflict resolution mechanism known to humans fails at one or
more of those principles much of the time.
We should always try to do better.
We should avoid expecting ourselves to be superhuman.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Martin Steigerwald writes:
> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.
> In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement.
> If everyone has been heard, noticed, felt and valued, if everything has
> been covered, t
gement calls in the past,
and we've all been right sometimes, and we've all been *wrong* sometimes.
We can argue our sides, but at some point we just have to trust our fellow
project members and try to make the decision work. That's what makes
Debian a collective, collaborative project rather than just a technical
assembly of packages.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
opportunity to write exploits before a patch is released (putting aside
the question of whether this works). I'm having a lot of difficulty
mapping those concepts onto license violations, so I don't understand what
you're proposing.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
ically
never enforced that way. Hell, they're barely ever enforced against
blatant violations by large commercial companies like VMware.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Paul Wise writes:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I may just be hopelessly naive or out of touch, but I feel like the
>> termination of rights clauses under the GPLv2 and GPLv3 are widely
>> ignored for good-faith violations (such as those D
Florian Weimer writes:
> * Russ Allbery:
>> Florian Weimer writes:
>>> Do you think Debian should welcome embargoes for GPL compliance
>>> issues? Security embargoes are a huge pain, but one would hope that
>>> GPL violations by Linux distributions are much
ossible terms to this framing of your argument.
You should be profoundly ashamed for choosing this path of malicious
exaggeration phrased as an attack on the work of fellow developers. It
was completely unbecoming of a Debian project member.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
n the Debian community, I feel that the
> physical pain caused by the latter was more than the former. Those
> people should be ashamed of themselves.
Yeah, no shit. Your lack of awareness that *you* are that person who
should be ashamed of yourself because that's what *you* just did
Scott Kitterman writes:
> If censorship isn't the right word (and at best, it's not ideal), what's
> the right word for the chilling effect on willingness to speak in public
> due to the risk of being ejected from an organization like Debian?
Being an adult.
--
Russ
Roberto C. Sánchez writes:
> On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 10:17:56AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Scott Kitterman writes:
>>> If censorship isn't the right word (and at best, it's not ideal), what's
>>> the right word for the chilling effect on willingness
x27;m sorry that it came across that
way. Having concern and confusion about whether your opinions are okay to
express is *also* part of being an adult. This is a universal experience.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
hen it's hard, I think nearly everyone is
going to assume good faith. The hard feelings come when someone declares
that they should not have to try, and that being told to try to not step
on people's feet is an offense against their human rights.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
#x27;s okay, and sometimes you're going to have to say later "whoops, that
wasn't wise, I'm sorry." As long as the apology is there, and is sincere,
I think it will all work out in the end. There's a lot of good will in
this project; people are not particularly ea
hip that is harmful and gets in the
way of talking about important issues, so it's useful to have a term for
this so that we can talk about whether Debian is close to that line or
not. It was a good question and deserved a real answer.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
about Clover, because that's not happening.
The primary argument we're having is over when Daisy is and isn't
appropriate. I don't think changing the labels changes the core
disagreement, which is that some people want to have a far higher bar for
Daisy than other people.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
#x27;s automatically pushed to strangers who are only
> interested in very particular parts of who you are)
Yup. And if you don't want that effect, well, don't aggregate your blog.
It's okay to not aggregate your blog!
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
eir most
defining characteristics is that nothing, *nothing* is *ever* their fault
(although some of them can fake convincing apologies).
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
n.
I think I put more thought into all of the aspects of that decision,
including weight on the impacts of the decisions, than just about any
other decision I've made in my life. I have put less thought into where I
live than into systemd.
I think this is part of that all-too-human belief that
course, but I strongly
suspect the percentage is lower.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
scripts I'll provide are sysvinit based. That suggests that my platform
> will be something other than Debian.
I hope you have fun and enjoy that platform! I'm very glad that you will
be able to find a platform that is a better fit for you.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Miles Fidelman writes:
> On 1/7/19 10:06 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Speaking as someone who is a listed author on three published RFCs and
>> chaired one IETF working group, I will take Debian process over IETF
>> process any day, and find your description of the IETF p
ersation, and I'm not really
helping. You just raised some points about the social impact of hard
disagreements, and about how decision-making works in general in Debian,
about which I have strong opinions and really wanted to reply.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
ntionally provocative and sniping at people because they think it's
enjoyable or funny (and I grew up on-line on Usenet; I've met a *lot* of
those people), well, surprise, people don't put up with that shit nearly
as long as they used to, and that's a *good* thing.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
I'm going to mess up occasionally and have to
readjust. But that's okay; it's still a lot less tricky than having to
deal with constant harassment every time you express an opinion. I'm
happy to do some of my part in supporting my friends.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
But still, the definition of "member" or
"voting member" of a non-profit is spot-on for how we currently use DD.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
pretty worried about the
social dynamic of paying people to do core project work that others are
currently doing for free.
I assume the above is the sort of thing that Sam is referring to when he
says that we need to have a higher-level discussion if we're going to
pursue this idea.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
nything with Ubuntu because
people get paid to do that. Particularly now that my free time is rarer
and more precious to me, doing unpaid work for an organization that also
has paid staff is hugely demotivating. It's entirely plausible that
paying for resources would mean that Debian would end up with *less*
resources than we have now, if other volunteers feel the same way.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
ing for it. But I think we should pick one or two big things,
no more, and try those things until they reach some agreed-upon conclusion
before adding more on.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Adrian Bunk writes:
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 04:07:54PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I could well be entirely wrong, but the part that I would expect to be
>> the most controversial is that, once Debian starts spending project
>> money to pay people to do work that other
Jonathan Carter writes:
> On 2019/06/01 19:55, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I very much doubt that our current donation-driven model would generate
>> US $1M per year on a sustained basis, particularly if you subtract
>> DebConf out of the mix (which I think we should,
;d be paying a
prohibitive performance price (not to mention other issues). There just
aren't any good options right now. Buy (or accept donations of) whatever
makes sense for other reasons, and expect there to be mandatory microcode
updates, kernel and virtualization workarounds, and security bugs.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
self getting into that sort of Socratic dialogue, it
turns out that the other person already understood the first four or five
steps and going through the preliminaries was just sort of weird, and it
would have been better to just start at the end and back up only until we
find the point
most meaningful within the Debian context.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
that there is
> between being LGBTQ+ and being an LGBTQ+ activist.)
Pride is not the activist event that it used to be, at least in the United
States and I believe in a lot of Europe. It's become very mainstream.
(This is something that some people in the LGBTQ+ community are also
might make sense for you to honor them inside your country, but for
> the other 95% of the population of this planet they are just people with
> the privilege of living in the US.
They are Debian project members. That's the part that matters.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)
roughly what US corporations tend to do.
(Personally, I think we should always strive to be better than a typical
corporation, not being much of a personal fan of capitalism, but they do
spend a fair amount of time thinking about how to navigate these sorts of
things among large numbers of humans who are forced together by something
largely unrelated to their personal backgrounds.)
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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