Dima wrote > this is one of the realities of the research software - one has to do new > things > in academia (e.g. one cannot tell an MSc student that his project will be > to fix > Sage bugs - he has to do something new!). > But how to deal with this problem? I predict that if the Sage community fails to solve it, Sage will end up at the same point where Singular or other CAS project in trouble is now. With the SageMathCloud stuff William tries to get money for development, and I really hope that the project will succeed.
In short - you are in a small minority of people here who can afford to > spend > time on fixing Sage bugs instead of writing papers and grant applications. > Each individual may of course gain some short-term benefit ignoring bugs or design issues. But the community _cannot_ afford to ignore quality problems(technical debt) and in the long term we all will pay the bills! Or, to formulate it in a positive manner, in the long term adequate quality will likely lead to higher productivity. Jakob Am Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 2014 10:43:57 UTC+2 schrieb Dima Pasechnik: > > On 2014-10-02, Nathann Cohen <nathan...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote: > > Hello ! > > > >> From a quick look-over of the code, it seems like we can always run > a > >> topological sort on the elements list passed into FinitePoset without > any > >> significant pentality (and should solve the equality issue), or better > > yet, > >> push that into the linear_extension() method. > > > > I do not think that it is sufficient: this is what my first message was > > about. There is no unique linear extension in a Poset, and I see no way > to > > compute a canonical one when the elements can be 'anything' (and do not > > have a natural total order). > > > >> There doesn't appear to be any > >> linear extension code that is based on the ordering of the elements > being > >> passed into FinitePoset. I haven't looked too deeply into it but I > could > >> likely do so over the weekend and maybe come up with a working branch. > > > > Beware, for in FinitePoset the ._list is not 'only' a list but has to be > a > > linear extension. This is one of the things you find out when working on > > that class. > > > >> Also Nathann, just for the record, I'm very tempted to not work on > this > >> based upon your comments because I don't want to make it seem like I'm > >> rewarding your behavior. > > > > I do not need Poset equality to be true. I do not need this class to be > > well-written. I don't use it. I don't trust its code anyway. > > > > I am doing this because this thing is an open-source software, and that > > when we write code that returns wrong answers we create trouble for > other > > persons. They pay our carelessness. > > > > My problem, and the reason why I am angry, is that absolutely nobody > cares > > about that. That Florent promised that he would do it 20 months ago and > > that he did absolutely nothing since. That those who use Posets do not > care > > sufficiently to spend the time to fix that. > > > > Furthermore, I hate with all my heart that the same persons who come > tell > > me that "they do not have sufficient time" suddenly find all the time > they > > need to write Grant proposals to the US or Europe, and get solid real > tens > > of thousands of euros of public money or more "because of what they will > do > > in Sage". To pay for their planes, for their hotels, for their food. > > I don't think you are fair here. This is basically a punch below the belt > from > someone who has great job security to do whatever one wants with their > time > aimed, perhaps inderectly, at Sage developers who depend on grant money > for the very possibility to work on Sage, or in science in general. > > > You are telling me that you do not want to reward a bad behaviour ? Look > at > > me: all the work I do in Sage, all the bugs I fixed and the features I > > added, all this is what they sell when they ask US and Europe to give > them > > money. And I cannnot trust them even to fix the bugs they create when > they > > code. When a problem happens, everybody ignores it and waits for > somebody > > else to fix it. > > this is one of the realities of the research software - one has to do new > things > in academia (e.g. one cannot tell an MSc student that his project will be > to fix > Sage bugs - he has to do something new!). > One of the aims of these grants would be to fund developers specifically > to > fix bugs. > > In short - you are in a small minority of people here who can afford to > spend > time on fixing Sage bugs instead of writing papers and grant applications. > > > > > > > > Even during two years. Even when the problem is so basic that beginners > > will encounter it. And I obviously don't want you to believe that it is > the > > only time this happened. > > > >> However, I will do so because I want Jori to > >> continue to develop for posets and I want to improve the overall > quality > > of > >> Sage. > > > > Yeah, me too. That's why I am here. That's why I tried to fix this many > > times, but really I do not know how. There is too much code accumulated > > there that I do not know. > > > >> I'm sorry if I'm being a complete ass here. I want you to be a part of > >> the Sage community because you are a good programmer, but the > continuous > >> attacks you are doing really irritates me. > > > > Sorry for irritating you. I would only want to be able to rely on my > > colleagues. > > > > Nathann > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 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