Just to give a different perspective, from someone who is not a Sage developer but is a Sage donor, the only reason I give money to Sage every month is because I happened to see your appeal on GitHub. If you had no GitHub presence at all, I likely would not be a donor. Not because I would not want to support Sage in that scenario, but because I would not know you needed money and there would not be a button I could just press to give you some (and I am not the only one, according to https://github.com/sponsors/sagemath there are 25 of us and you currently receive about $3000/year in donations made through GitHub).
I think the same principle applies to attracting donations of time rather than money, and these are much more important to the health of an open source project. The pool of potential Sage contributors you might attract on GitHub is vastly larger than the pool of people who are motivated enough to figure out how to make contributions via trac. Yes, you will get plenty of junk PRs you have to deal with on GitHub, but that does not require a lot of effort and I think it would be well worth it for the sake of the non-junk PRs you might get (whose main value is not the code but the person behind it who might submit more PRs in the future if you make it easy for them to do so). Indeed, I can even imagine myself fixing the occasional bug I come across in Sage if all I had to do was submit a PR on GitHub, and there are surely many Sage users who might become Sage contributors if the activation cost were low enough. I also think Aram Dermenjian made an excellent point -- in today's world the value of being able to point to contributions to projects on GitHub vastly exceeds the value of being able to point to a contribution you made on trac (regardless of the merits of the contribution or the project itself). This does not apply just to professional software developers, it also applies to students who might be your best source of future Sage developers. In any case, I hope you can all come to an agreement that everyone is happy with (or at least can live with)! On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 7:31:48 AM UTC-4 dim...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Sat, 10 Sep 2022, 10:56 Jan Groenewald, <j...@aims.ac.za> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracUsers >> In 2020, 21, 22, _only_ Edgewall & Trac-hacks (the trac people), and >> sagemath are listed as trac users bothering to update their details. >> >> I don't know how accurate the below articles are, but found them >> intersting to read. Would be interested in >> comments from anyone who knows where they are inaccurate: >> https://kinsta.com/blog/gitlab-vs-github/#gitlab-vs-github-key-differences >> https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-vs-gitlab-the-key-differences/ >> https://www.incredibuild.com/blog/gitlab-vs-github-comparison (Flow and >> CI sections) >> https://radixweb.com/blog/github-vs-gitlab#difference >> I can't tell which workflow is better for sagemath. Remember feature >> parity betweenm them will also change every few months! >> >> Also see what they say about themselves/each other: >> https://about.gitlab.com/devops-tools/github-vs-gitlab/ >> https://resources.github.com/devops/tools/compare/ >> >> It does look like github might offer more contributors. (Of high and low >> quality? Perhaps the slight hurdle to logging in to gitlab the first time >> is a good thing...) >> >> I'd be happy to assist with self-hosting (so gitlab) and perhaps sponsor >> a container (even a separate machine for CI) but I think the sagemath >> project would probably be better off on git**b. I'm also hesitant to invest >> my time in learning trac/gitolite. The bus problem Dima mentioned with >> self-hosting is valid. But nice to have it as an option for a quick exit >> (from either git**b) when whatever happens to the companies... >> > > migration gitlhub->gitlab is easy, and the latter can be selfhosted on > opensource code, so a migration to selfhosted gitlab should not be a > problem, if needed. > > >> >> I don't think the move is so urgent though, but it should probably happen >> in the next year or so. >> > > I don't see how the current ssh keys issue is not urgent. I think it is > very urgent. > And in general, as I said, potential contributors look at the shabby state > of our devops and stay away. > > Dima > > >> For the lulz: >> https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/git_2x.png >> >> Regards, >> Jan >> >> >> >> On Sat, 10 Sept 2022 at 11:02, Aram Dermenjian <aram.derme...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm only an occasional developer with sage, but I wanted to also bring >>> up one (minor) positive for moving to github which is less technical. >>> Moving to github would be a motivating factor for people to contribute to >>> sagemath as it gives a pathway to work in industry (programming) if they >>> chose to leave academia. In particular, github shows contributions made by >>> a user to various projects. This could be a valuable tool for someone on >>> the job market who would prefer (or has no choice) to move to industry and >>> get a programming job. Sure, one can already currently say that one >>> develops for sagemath, but by putting it on github it creates a unified >>> location for future employers to look. As mentioned, this is just a minor >>> positive, but could be a motivating factor for some. >>> >>> Also, I concur with Vincent in that we should have somewhere with a list >>> of pros/cons for either side in some kind of list fashion as currently it's >>> a little hard to keep track of whether people are making the same arguments >>> or new arguments. >>> >>> Kindly, >>> Aram Dermenjian >>> >>> On Sat, 10 Sept 2022 at 09:35, Vincent Delecroix <20100.d...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I am in the same mood as Travis : if I was to consider a move to >>>> github I would like to have a clear and complete overview of the >>>> changes in the workflow (how do we set ticket dependencies? how >>>> reviews will work? management of releases? etc). For me the discussion >>>> in this thread is very premature as there is no proposal of this sort. >>>> The "moving to github" does not specify how things will work. >>>> >>>> I see clear advantages of moving to github. The first being trac >>>> maintenance and a second example that William mentioned is that it >>>> might lower the barrier for newcomers. But there are also plenty of >>>> reasons not to migrate. The first one I think is that we might loose >>>> active developers. Let me recall that the move from mercurial to git >>>> some 10 years ago made many active developers quit. >>>> >>>> So I would like to propose that ticket #30363 instead of being >>>> technical (ie how do we do the move) explains >>>> - a concrete proposal for a github workflow (there might be several of >>>> them) >>>> - list the pros >>>> - list the cons >>>> Then we could proceed with a reasonable discussion on whether we will >>>> do such move. >>>> >>>> Ideally (if we had illimited developer time) I would like to encourage >>>> the possibility of having both trac and github. If I recall correctly, >>>> it was possible to authenticate to trac with github account and make >>>> PR on github that automatically transformed into a ticket on trac. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> Vincent >>>> >>>> On Sat, 10 Sept 2022 at 09:54, Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sat, 10 Sep 2022, 05:48 Matthias Koeppe, <matthia...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 9:34:16 PM UTC-7 Travis Scrimshaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I really dislike Github's decentralized approach with PR and having >>>> to have separate clones of the repo within each user. My understanding is >>>> if two people have different fixes, then they individually submit PRs that >>>> are not explicitly linked with each other, much less with a specific bug >>>> report issue. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> In the PR you would include a comment such as "Fixes #1234", which >>>> links it to an Issue (bug report). >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > and this Issue will then automatically get a comment/mention linking >>>> to the PR, no manual intervention in the Issue is needed. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> Yes, there can be multiple competing PRs in order solve one ticket. >>>> Better than edit wars on a Trac ticket. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/2548301a-19d8-4ab5-ab1c-84f3fdcf5bbcn%40googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAWYfq3rdAfkj%3DkDLJa0TxMPxLHz4O2_stffO8F-PyiGsO0ZqQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>> . >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAGEwAAkYpD4fh%3D_QvuwmZoRSgrF6AgUeg1WWvbXMhX-DJ5hanA%40mail.gmail.com >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAKQMtir03oQsrdJb06_%2Bi4cdVDtxAdZ8pszcbw3C0juqi87mXA%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAKQMtir03oQsrdJb06_%2Bi4cdVDtxAdZ8pszcbw3C0juqi87mXA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> .~. >> /V\ Jan Groenewald >> /( )\ www.aims.ac.za >> ^^-^^ >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "sage-devel" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAg%3Dp_2KD6ZDiY9VKD7RDzNNne%2B5WLg0Cqt7VMyRDvVepyWS7Q%40mail.gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAg%3Dp_2KD6ZDiY9VKD7RDzNNne%2B5WLg0Cqt7VMyRDvVepyWS7Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. 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