William,
I STILL fee like RSS is, as implemented by code and product
development is a lousy solution to a very small problem. There are other
simple safer less expensive, lower maintenance measures than can be
taken to protect first responders from danger. Just one example with
string inverters and thus higher voltages on the roof is mandate that
after the combiner box that's located within a foot of the array route
the metal conduit off the roof directly behind it into the attic
straight down to the joists perpendicular to the roof plane.
And then train, if even necessary, the fire responder on
the roof anxious to plunge his saw into the roof to not vent through the
array. I believe this is referred to as common sense. Has this ever
happened anyway? Has anyone ever been electrocuted in any type of first
responding situation due to contact with voltages produced from an
array? If so, we have to also consider damage or harm done by the RSS
excess wiring and equipment failures. Of course micros are inherently
"safe" from an RSS standpoint though there are more connections and
equipment failure points on the roof and in our mountainous territory
that means more often steeper metal roofs. Whew, another whole issue.
I realize that the DC run from the array combiner to the
inverter is still hot...maybe require that run to be in red metal
conduit labelled "Danger, Always energized"? Yes, I'm still a string
inverter guy.
With NEM3 in full swing and the federal government now on
the solar warpath we certainly won't have to 'worry' about a big rush of
installs in PG&E/California area which is most of the state. You
thought resi rooftop solar was just for the well-off before, NEM3
insured that it will remain that way. Maybe this will give the
regulators time to reconsider RSS.
Bill
Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, owner
4291 Nelson St. (Shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell)
CA. C10 Lic # 874049
Solar Powered since 1982
Home of the Sunny Side Up
On 3/27/2025 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
Wally, Todd:
I have been pondering this discussion since it first appeared. My
conclusion is that you both have valid points to make:
·There are forces at work to make it harder for people to generate
their own power and take revenue away from established corporations.
Large utilities did not initiate net metering, they were forced to do
so by legislation and I am sure they would like to go back to being
the only energy producers in their service area.
·Not every new hurdle we face is a product of these forces. Some are
driven by legitimate safety concerns.
If we lump these two points together and don’t offer reasoned,
evidence-supported claims to our arguments, we can look like
conspiracy theorists.
The solution, in my humble opinion, is to look carefully and
dispassionately at the problems we face, back our conclusions with
facts, and communicate our concerns clearly and effectively to the
public, to our customers and to legislators and decision makers.
If there is a legitimate safety concern, we need to ask ourselves: Are
the proposed solutions realistic? If the solutions are draconian,
unreasonably difficult or ineffective, then we are not resolving the
safety issue. This does not always mean dark forces are conspiring
against us. It may be that we need to rethink a given solution.
The original discussion was about RSS. My view has been changed by
the discussion. I have limited experience with RSS systems that are
not part of an optimizer or micro-inverter system. I have been
fortunate that none of my RSDs have burst into flames, but there is
credible evidence this has happened. We have seen first-hand
testimony that fire responders have not been adequately trained to
activate RSS, making it useless.
I disagree with the need to put RSS on ground mounted arrays. They are
required if the feeder enters a building that has any use other than
to house solar power equipment. If you provide an external
disconnect, requiring RSS seems totally unnecessary.
Furthermore, UL3741 has me really scratching my head. The original
RSS requirements specified any voltage above 30 as being hazardous.
Then it became 80 volts. Now with UL3741, up to 160 volts is safe? I
am reading an article
<https://www.mayfield.energy/technical-articles/ul3741/> that says
1,000 VDC may be allowed.
It seems we have a huge credibility problem here. There is no
consensus on what voltages are unsafe and we have safety equipment not
up to the task. This credibility problem looks like a conspiracy but
it be more accurate to call it a competency issue. The regulators
have been quick to mandate without a clear understanding of the safety
thresholds and manufacturers have been quick to fill a market gap with
inadequate products.
It is a shame Ms. Hren did not respond to my questions about how this
all came about. I don’t mean to put her on the spot but she offered
her credentials as a member of the code making panel.
Getting back to my main point, it is frustrating navigating the
complicated regulatory and technical landscape that PV contracting has
become. If we want to advocate for ourselves, we need to communicate
clearly and calmly supported by facts. Labeling the problems as a
conspiracy won’t win any arguments.
Sincerely,
William Miller
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
CA Lic. 773985
*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 10:12 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Wallace Stahle
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy?
So Todd,
What part of the idea or premise that an industry which produces,
distributes and sells electric energy to end users at great profit, in
PG&E's case at least, desires to exclude self generators from their
grid and plans, lobbies and in fact conspires with other industry
stakeholders to tilt the ground rules in their favor by way of the CA
PUC is ”IDIOTIC”?
To think an investor owned utility selling energy to end users is not
working to limit those same end users from benefiting from self
generation is naive at least. Or even idiotic maybe.
Can you further define what part of this idea is idiotic vs rational
on the utilities part to limit self generation?
I understand this topic is not specific to wrenching and may not
belong on this list but given that getting interconnection agreements
seems to be critical to the list it may be a topic worth considering.
Respectfully
Wallace Stahle
Future Electric Energy Co
PO Box 236
Willits, CA 95490
707-459-0474
Lic.#C10-762093
[email protected]
On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:38 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches
<[email protected]> wrote:
*Can we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories off this list.*
*Thank you...**
*
On Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake Chamberlin via
RE-wrenches" <[email protected]> said:
Hi David,
RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent
computer crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting
the intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the
utility industry in general. I will check on another computer that
may still have the information. It is at a different location.
I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first
proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is
viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways
to safeguard firefighters.
--
Cheers,
Drake
/Drake Chamberlin/
/Athens Electric LLC/
/Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/
/NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/
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