Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not
necessarily a suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems
were/are for me the most reliable and trouble free systems. I'd
install one and never hear back from my customer for a decade or
more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid
systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When I get asked
to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't
grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and
120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart
shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or
AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in
10. With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have
tried to bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid
pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that
take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers,
and lots of headaches with Lithium.
Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a
property with a legacy system and wants to live like they are
still in the City, that's an entirely different conversation.
My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I
live Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7
months a year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost,
12VDC device charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection
(gravity spring water) on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO),
Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for lighting
and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds
bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle
consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 15
years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a
piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I
can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a
battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The
wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any
decent electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs should
Todd Cory not be around :)
Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've
installed and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems
from pinky dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the
best were/are either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or
Schneider/Discover and the latter have had their share of issues.
On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a
12VDC distribution system. I'd have to move them around every
week or so to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts.
They seem to work fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using
MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or other MidNite
boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any
standard distribution box for them.
Brad Bassett
Application Engineer retired
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via
RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Hi Dave,
I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those
situations. We have a couple of barrier islands around
here where people have set up what amounts to little fish
camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also
home to a few full-time/most-time residents and
state parks. Everyone knows everyone. The clients are
safe and reliable. These sites range from places that
people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago
all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips of
sand where very wealthy people like to look out over
Naples beach a couple times of year from their off-grid
mansions. It's pretty interesting.
I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times
a year on a fishing expedition want a band-aid approach.
There is no reason to throw $100K at a situation like
this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to meet the
very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a
reliable and long-lasting solution for around $25K and
pocket enough money that I want to answer their call in
the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x 100W
Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda
EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with the
performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is
installed in a safe and professional manner.
The current distribution systems look solid, each
protected by a Square D QO breaker panel and
professionally installed. The power production and
delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix
without too much risk.
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
wrote:
How about just buy an RV?
Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of
the experiences I have had with what I call Offgrid
Squalor.
Just have to be careful especially these days of
druggies, people in vans with no windows, ex
paramilitary that went bad,
and you get the picture.
If you know the person that is the way to keep you
and your loved ones safe. Money does talk sometimes
and the lack can of it
can be a warning.
Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are
what gets my accountant telling me if you do not
charge enough,
no one will listen to your advice.
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
don't"
<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
<https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060*
On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via
RE-wrenches wrote:
Jason,
Just using the converter works fine. They are
considered a battery charger or a regulated power
supply. I am currently running that way now with the
battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of
putting the battery back in the system just for
triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery
cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel
for the generator (or it won't start).
My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30
amps.
John
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via
RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V
battery with a charger. I was thinking of just
using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC
loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or
can I just power the DC loads directly with a
converter? If I just have lights and fans on the
DC system, the load should be pretty minimal.
I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would
like to eliminate that cost and complexity if
possible.
And yeah, I am not considering this a money
making opportunity. It's really just a challenge
to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design
Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John
Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Jason,
I have a customer with the same situation
except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter,
He has a sunfrost fridge and other small
loads with a very fancy custom control board
originally set up to handle AC and DC
systems. We are adding a lot more solar and
I was considering a dual battery system but
the owner didn't like that idea. We are
going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use
one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up
all his DC loads and will be adding a large
48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar
using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the
12V inverter. He complained that the
existing inverter would not handle all his
current AC loads very well. My own house is
fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of
#10 copper not being used) and I have been
considering getting a small LFP 12V battery
to put back on by DC System. Then use the
Iota as a secondary charging method with
some of my large stash of older modules
hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge
controller to recreate my original system
just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the
livingroom right now. For your customer, a
small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or
less) to replace his old battery bankm and
more larger ones for the new AC side with
48V inverter fed by his generator or through
an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non
charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these
challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to
make money.!!
John Blittersdorf
offgridvermont.com <http://offgridvermont.com>
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason
Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy
and is willing to live with any negative
consequences. That said, I want to offer
him something as simple and bulletproof
as possible. I am walking into this with
eyes wide open, for sure.
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar
Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor
CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor
EC13013208
On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave
Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Not being helpful but I walk away
from these. It will come back to you.
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go
where powerlines don't"
<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
<https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209
813 0060*
On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason
Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
I have an off-grid client who is
working on replacing old
equipment at a cabin. He has a
lot of 12 volt distribution in
the house for lighting, fans,
and a 12 volt refrigerator. He
also has 120 volt AC loads that
run through a separate
distribution panel where the
only source is a 2000 Watt Honda
generator. There is no inverter
present. The batteries are
charged through a Trace C40.
He currently has a few ancient
solar panels and a struggling
Bank of AGM batteries. It's time
for an upgrade. I can easily
supply enough PV power for what
he needs. He currently has a 9
kilowatt hour battery capacity
that he was happy with when the
batteries operated optimally.
Nonetheless, I would probably
future-proof him with a 10 to 15
kilowatt hour LiPo to double or
triple his usable capacity.
For convenience, obviously it
would be nice to have an
inverter to eliminate or reduce
the generator requirement. But
he seems committed to keeping
his 12 volt distribution because
it would be costly to replace
fixtures. I think he would
consider replacing the 12 volt
refrigerator if he has an inverter.
He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
I don't like the idea of 12 volt
direct from a battery plus
connecting an inverter to that
same battery. It is going to be
hard to measure and monitor things.
I am thinking about using a 48
volt battery with a single phase
120 volt inverter, getting him
to change to a 120 volt
refrigerator, and using a DC
converter to give him somewhere
in the range of 100 amps at 12
volts for his existing DC
lighting and fan loads. Is this
a bad idea? Should I stick with
a 12 volt battery system? He
does have a tiny 12 volt
pressure pump which might be an
issue for the converter. I'm not
sure. I am a bit worried about
the efficiency loss and capacity
of DC converters and not sure
how to size it.
Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Morningstar Electric Inc
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