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Mark:
I agree that the Code requirement for GEC in grid tied PV makes no sense.
I have been trying to get it changed since the 2005 Code cycle.
Until it does change (not even likely in 2014)
we are stuck with it
unless you float the array J
Best Regards,
John Berdner
General Manager, North America
SmallBannerPictEngnew
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538
USA (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3201 ext 747
M: 530.277.4894
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:08 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules
I believe the WEEB is a great product for
producing equipment grounds. But for producing a
GEC I don't see it. Even if I bond the inverter
case to the rail with a WEEB what is the next
step in the chain, a reversible WEEB lug to bond
the rail to the wire. Still, I don't think the
GEC for these microinverters is a rational
requirement. It appears from the discussion that
if I have a seperately installed microinverter
that bonds it's DC side to ground, the Code
requires a GEC but if I take that exact same
inverter, assemble it to a module and test and
list them as an AC module the requirement for
GEC goes away. This is another indicator that
the application of this requirement in the Code itself is specious.
Mark Frye
On 1/16/2013 9:53 AM, John Berdner wrote:
Brain:
Not trying to be argumentative here
I understand that you feel that a WEEB is
equivalent to an irreversibly spliced connection
but, as most commonly used in the field, I disagree.
The Code does not recognize bolted connections
of any kind as equivalent to irreversible spliced or contiguous.
It is an issue of the type of connection not the
presence of the WEEB clip in that connection.
For Example: If the WEEB connection was riveted
in place then I believe it would be considered
irreversibly spliced but as part of a bolted connection, no.
With specific reference to GEC see 250.64C in
the 2011 NEC or 2011 NEC Handbook.
Lastly, the argument that it is a similar level
of difficult to cutting the wire, while true, is
not relevant to the Code requirement. Cutting a
contiguous wire is also a similar level of
difficulty to opening a bolted connection but
obviously a bolted connection is not a contiguous wire.
Best Regards,
John Berdner
General Manager, North America
SmallBannerPictEngnew
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538
USA (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3201 ext 747
M: 530.277.4894
From:
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:22 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules
Thanks Brian. This has been a helpful thread for
me. Mark Frye, thanks for kicking it off.
Best, August
August Goers
Luminalt Energy Corporation
1320 Potrero Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94110
m: 415.559.1525
o: 415.641.4000
<mailto:aug...@luminalt.com>aug...@luminalt.com
From:
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Wiley
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules
Hi August,
I maintain that the WEEB is an irreversible splice.
If you want to disconnect a WEEB from a
structure, you must irreversibly damage the device. It cannot be reused.
Admittedly the force required to remove a WEEB
is less than that required for a thermal splice,
but it doesn't take much force to just cut a wire either.
I would argue that the intent of the code is to
prevent inadvertent removal of the ground. You
must knowingly remove a WEEB from the grounding
path and if you do so in the maintenance of an
array, good workmanship requires that you restore the connection.
Best Regards,
Brian Wiley
On 1/15/2013 2:11 PM, August Goers wrote:
Hi John,
I definitely see your point and that is why I was somewhat questioning the
use of WEEBs with Enphase below. Enphases's instructions (link posted in
thread below) seem to indicate a support of running the continuous GEC on
the rack and then bonding the microinverter to the rack with WEEBs. Maybe
I am misinterpreting the document or perhaps Enphase has another take.
There is no question that according to NEC 250.64(C) the GEC must be
continuous. In the 2008 NEC handbook section 690.42 Point of System
Grounding Connection has an application note "Connections are to be made
in accordance with markings on the equipment or in the installation
instructions."
All that said, it seems like technology is leaning towards listed AC
Modules or floating array inverters. It sounds like that removes the
requirement for a GEC which is great to help reduce installation costs.
The GEC has always been a pain in the neck.
Best,
August
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John
Berdner
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 7:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules
August:
The WEEB or other Listed grounding means between the inverter case and the
structure are not "contiguous or irreversible spliced" and therefore do
not meet the requirements for a GEC.
If the structure is then grounded via a bolt on lug it also is not
irreversible or contiguous.
If you can unbolt something and disconnect the ground then it is not
contiguous or irreversibly spliced.
Both of the above are ok for EGC but not for GEC.
GEC is a pain in the neck but the Code requirements are clear.
If the PV array conductor (pos or neg) is bonded to ground by the inverter
then the inverter requires a GEC with all the related requirements - no if
and's or but's.
Best Regards,
John Berdner
General Manager, North America
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note of our new
address.)
T: 510.498.3201 ext 747
M: 530.277.4894
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August
Goers
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:32 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules
Hi Mark,
There have been some recent threads on this list touching on this topic.
As far as I understand, Enphase microinvertes still require a GEC up to
and including the 2011 NEC. I don't know about the 2014 NEC. Enphase bonds
the positive DC module conductor to ground. Pages 16 and 17 of their M215
installation manual address grounding:
<http://enphase.com/wp-uploads/enphase.com/2011/06/Enphase_M215_Installatio>http://enphase.com/wp-uploads/enphase.com/2011/06/Enphase_M215_Installatio
nOperation_Manual.pdf
Products such as Solar Bridge that are listed as Alternating Current (AC)
Modules (per NEC 690.2) don't need a Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC)
as long as there are no conductors connected to ground within the product.
Solar Bridge has a good article on this:
<http://solarbridgetech.com/microinverters-and-ac-pv-modules-are-different/>http://solarbridgetech.com/microinverters-and-ac-pv-modules-are-different/
This all takes us back to using Enphase with grounding washers like WEEBs
for the GEC. According to what I read in their instructions (and after
many phone calls), it sounds like they are okay with us running the GEC on
the racking in #6 and then bonding the microinverters to the rack with
WEEBs. Seems a little strange but it's been working for us.
Good topic!
Best,
August
415.559.1525
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 3:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules
Does anyone have the latest on the GEC for micro-inverters/ACPV issue?
I know it is still in NEC 2008 and I believe 2011 with plans to address it
in 2014.
I am specifically interested in the issue of GEC means continues
(irreversible splices) and the whole business of the DC side of these
devices constituting a separately derived system.
Enphase technical support is fine if the micro inverter chasis is bonded
to a EGC only, but they leave the lug on the chasis if you want/need to
build a GEC.
SolarBridge (pre-assembled micro-inverter) seems to be devoid of a chasis
lug and therefore by extension does not/can not had a GEC in the system.
Exeltech (integrated micro-inverter aka. ACPV) does not seem to have a lug
on its chasis.
Has the industry pretty much moved to not requiring a GEC for these
devices and if so, how are the AHJ taking it?
Thanks,
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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