Re: [RE-wrenches] Combating requests for itemized PV pricing

[Allan Sindelar]

Jason, As our Rates and Policies outline is posted on our website and thus available for anyone to see, I can excerpt it for you on this list. I encourage you not to worry about this market segment. They're not your customer base. We seldom sell just components to customers with whom we don't have a relationship already. I tell them up front that if they know what they want, they can find it cheaper from an internet discounter. By expressing that willingness to send them elsewhere, I'm implicitly saying that there's value added in working with us (paying both a higher price and, if real design time is involved in assessing their needs and recommending the right product(s), paying for our consultation labor as well). With our experience and knowledge, we'll give them a better solution. Here is a list of our published policies from our website, developed over many years: a) Positive Energy provides unsurpassed knowledge, quality of work, and after-sale support. We do not meet-or-beat others' prices. b) We install to the requirements of the National Electric Code (NEC). We may not agree with particular aspects of the Code, but we will install to Code where required, and usually where not required. c) As licensed, bonded and insured electrical contractors, we prefer to permit all installations under our own license. d) We will generally require a 50% up-front deposit to order equipment. e) We do not generally maintain a large inventory of major components. This allows us to recommend the best equipment for each situation, rather than what we have in stock, and allows us to supply fresh product stock. f) Our final invoice presents the job total, with itemized descriptions for components, installation materials, permit fees, installation labor, and travel time and mileage. g) We will not install equipment purchased elsewhere. h) We will not service or install equipment on RVs or other traveling vehicles. We do build stand alone power systems on platforms that may be transportable. i) These rates and policies apply to all work performed unless otherwise agreed to in advance of work being performed. Reread g) above, Jason. There's no money in installing customer-supplied equipment. The discounter already made the profit, you make at best a wage, you have no stake in the design, and you're implicitly expected to warrant the result - or at least, to provide after-installation support. In the immortal words of Nancy Reagan (or was it Barbara Bush?), Just Say No. On your second topic: with whole systems, we will only provide an itemized estimate to a customer with whom we have already developed a relationship of trust - either because they are already one of our longtime clients, or because through the design process we are clear that they have chosen to work only with us based on our reputation, quality of work, a referral, etc., and even then those customers often have no need of itemized prices for that very reason. It only took one or two experiences years ago of preparing a design for a lead and having the person then shop our design elsewhere for us to stop offering itemized component lists with line-item prices. My usual approach is to create my design and estimate in our Quickbooks software. We have a variety of templates we have created over the years. One that I use for this is set up to print out (or email as a .pdf attachment) an itemized list of components, including line items for shipping, installation materials, labor and travel, but without prices. Only the total appears at the bottom. I make sure that any allowance-based items state the amount of the allowance in the description, such as "$150 allowance for permits; will bill actual cost" or "$1,500 estimated allowance for installation materials: wire, conduit, fittings, etc.", or even "16' estimated allowance for 2/0 battery cable", as as this provides justification for actual billing at job's end. The customer who is interested can see our choice of components, and could take this design elsewhere for lower prices. But they know that we won't install the components for them, and won't support them, and they generally they see our proposal as a total solution - design, installation, warranty, support and service. All of what I have written here comes from my specific perspective doing battery-based systems, mostly off grid. Our "B-Team" within Positive Energy works primarily the old-fashioned way, on a time-and-materials basis. That won't work for standard grid-tied systems, which use completely different sales approaches and fixed-price bids in a highly competitive environment. I hope that this helps you, Jason. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 8/18/2012 10:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: We are getting more and more people calling that want to provide their own equipment and have us install it. It's frustrating, because usually they are looking at prices for materials that either I would not consider selling, or would not meet the mounting requirements of the Florida Building Code. Of course, they do not understand and consider all of the other costs. In addition, lots of people are looking for a breakdown of prices (down to the line item - nuts and bolts). I generally refuse to provide it because it inevitably leads to the response "I can get that module/inverter online cheaper." The "I need to make money" response leads to "yeah, but you must be getting better prices than I see online" argument. And so on, and so on... I'm sure you've heard it... I've resorted recently to just providing a percentage breakdown, stating that the price is roughly 25% each: PV Modules Inverters and Electrical Mounting System Design/Engineering, Permitting, Labor, Overhead, and Profit Any other tips out there to answer the request for line item details? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar

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