Geez, I got that file on a model specific google search. It has a
picture of a 4000 series flooded cell to the side, no other labeling,
and it matched my cross check in the AEE catalog (1000 cycles at 50%
DOD). I can't seem to get to that page within the website.....
The chart you sent is labeled series 4000, and is labeled 1280 cycles
@50% DOD (very definitive, very different). Did both myself and AEE
indeed use the wrong data?(I see the AGM tag) I have another s460 spec
sheet claiming 1300 cycle 10 year life with no DOD mentioned.....
Its like shopping for tires or a mattress, you never know what to
believe, other than real experience sometimes. I had a horrible time for
instance finding cycle data for Deka, and I'm still not sure if what
they sent is right (that Deka = Trojan) I had conflicting charts and
numbers from Trojan too.....
Be nice to have an independent test facility and publish some trust
worthy comparison data on a level playing field. I based my Rolls info
on almost a decade of literature collected from them, not just that one
chart.
Awaiting clarification from Rolls, sorry if I used the wrong data
Ray Walters
On 9/16/2011 10:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
Ray,
You referenced the wrong chart. Yours was for AGMs. Try
http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable.
Allan
Ron,
At 48V, I could be tempted to pick the 16 golf carts. Disadvantages:
More cells to water and smaller reservoirs. More interconnects, more
floor space. Advantages: More capacity for less money. More tolerance
for abuse. About the same real-world cycle life (just based on
experience). Lighter gauge and thus less expensive interconnects. And
two strings isn't too many. Like Ray, I'm not too enamored of L16s as
a value-based choice, although we use a fair number. We typically see
4 1/2 - 7 years from L16s, and about the same from golf carts.
*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
*Positive Energy, Inc.*
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
*505 424-1112*
_www.positiveenergysolar.com_ <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>
*
*
On 9/16/2011 8:37 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life:
http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81&php
The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity
begins being reduced.
I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks like
a typical L16, not over 500 cycles.
Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on their
website?
Ray
7 PM, Ron Young wrote:
Hi All,
Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this
conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC
batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I am
recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1 year for
the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check - and this
is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by
a third party who is not always reliably taking care of business;
half the number of connections; half the footprint ...
The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries in this
scenario has to do with the company who set the systems up - Xantrex
and their rationale seems to be the easy availability of the GC
batteries e.g. in automotive stores etc. vs the more specialized
distribution of the L-16's. Xantrex want to sell "arrive and drop"
systems that will be sold through mass retailers from what I can see.
The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000 series
batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the U.S. battery
chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries and L-16's or any
other type so I find it a bit suspect.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com <http://Solareagle.com>
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote:
forwarded from earth2
Begin forwarded message:
*From: *Ray Walters <r...@solarray.com <mailto:r...@solarray.com>>
*Date: *September 16, 2011 1:03:43 PM PDT
*To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
*Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
**Reply-To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Larry,
I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings.
If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5
strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this
battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery.
Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for
good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as
soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher
range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they
are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to
reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr
rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is
looking at 80%DOD, be aware.
Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet:
3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle
life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles.
HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to
80%DOD.
That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared
to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s.
This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance
required for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you
will have 4 battery replacements for the same time the HUPs just
have one replacement.
Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by
about a 3 to1 ratio.
Ray
Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible
idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be.
Larry
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote:
The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a
scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that
some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to
80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy
golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as
good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your
mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must
always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its
usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of
course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good
paralleling technique.
We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump
straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all
together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/
amp hr vs their lifespan.
The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank
requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the
customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the
property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value.
I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing
costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc..
L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so
this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent)
and make both of you happier in the long run.
Ray Walters
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
<http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Options& settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules& etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Options& settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules& etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Options& settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules& etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
