------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:17:36 -0600
From: benn kilburn <b...@daystarsolar.ca>
To: Wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
Message-ID: <col121-w2359be547c2d1a3c956ce5ad...@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Not a lot of you guys in the field today 'eh? I was just checking
a spec
on my laptop and noticed i had a wireless signal and a mailbox full
of
great feedback, thanks again everyone!!!
I'll go over all the details from everyone a little more when i'm
done on
site for the day. For a few of you i just wanted to show you this
link
to the S-5-PV clamp, which is different from just the S-5! clamp >
Click
here to learn more. < The S-5-PV does not need rails, the mod
frames sit
on the 'mounting disc' which can accommodate one or two modules.
BUT,
with the Enphase system, this leave no where to mount the inverters.
Bill made a good point; save this mounting method for string inverter
systems. We are now planning this project using just the S-5
clamp/L-foot/rail system. No problems.
Back at 'er!
benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A
SUNNY DAY
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:34:56 -0600
From: al...@positiveenergysolar.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
We have used these for years. They work better than wire ties, but
the rubber liner deteriorates over time, so install them as if
there
is no rubber protection on the loom clamp.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
On 10/20/2010 11:53 AM, jay peltz wrote:
If this helps,
I just installed a system and used 3 different size loop
clamps (
del city) which worked really well.
I used 3/8" for single wires, 3/4 for 2 wires and 1" for 3
and also for the connector, worked really well, made it all
very
clean.
I attached them with SS tek screws into the rails.
jay
peltz power
On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Mark Dickson wrote:
Just
finished one. . . Direct Power recommended
drilling and bolting directly to the aluminum
rails--easy and solid. Although, I was not
happy about all the wire management that went
into it though. Sure would be nice if
somebody
came along and made some integrated wire
raceways!!!
It was
amazing how many blank stares I got from
racking
manus at SPI, when I asked them if they had
any
in the works. Most just kept pointing to
their
wire clips and pretended not to know about the
NEC requirements.
Best regards,
Mark Dickson,
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
Installer ?
Oasis Montana Inc.
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 15:39:36 -0700
From: "Hans Frederickson" <h...@fredelectric.com>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Message-ID: <e8cda5f561974bd493d879c6c8db8...@frederickson.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kris has a good idea. Installing 2x backer blocks on the I-joists
will not
only give you more depth for your lag screws, but it will
strengthen the
roof framing as well. Also, as Kris recommends, check with the
manufacturer
for nailing patterns, etc. I was dealing with some BCI joists this
past
summer and I was pleased that Boise Cascade has structural
engineers on
staff that are eager to help, and can email you approved drawings for
reinforcing the joists.
-Hans
_____
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
Kristopher
Schmid
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:33 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
What about screwing in double 2x6s flush to the roof deck between the
beams
where your feet will attach and lag bolting into that? Definitely
check
with the beam manufacturer first, though.
Kris
Legacy Solar
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
715-653-4295
sol...@legacysolar.com
www.legacysolar.com
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Scott
McCalmont
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:00 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
In general, you shouldn't drill or cut the flanges on engineered wood
beams.
I think that eliminates lag screws into the rafters. They probably
wouldn't
have the same pull-out strength as a lag screw into a conventional
rafter,
either.
Scott
On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Chris Daum wrote:
Dear Wrenches:
I have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to
upgrade
it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The rafters are
those
(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and
shingles).
What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you beef
up the
wood to lag into?
Thanks for all your input.
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:17:51 -0700
From: "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind" <ke...@whidbeysunwind.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
Message-ID: <982a09ba-d184-4000-8eb3-ea570ef5b...@whidbeysunwind.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed;
delsp=yes
Hi Dan,
Project done been touched - we're committed to putting up something
with an upright axis in the wind....
Do you have any info about Urban Green Energy? Fellow we've been
talking with in NY is Ryan Gilchrist.
I've always thought it would be interesting if a client absolutely
insisted on VAWT's, no matter what I said, and we wouldn't be held
accountable for not dissuading them. The GC on this project has
offered to buy the turbines and carry the manufacturer's warranty
with
the Navy, with us just responsible for the installation. I don't know
if it can get better than that. Monitoring and everything.
I just need to decide whether to give up the material sale. If we
managed to find a VAWT that could endure, and have a reasonable
output
(it helps to get an additional 12?/kWh for production over net
metering in WA), we have several customers who would be interested,
even when fully informed about the low ROI compared to PV. These
folks
just want to see SOME benefit to our long, windy winters and don't
have the moxy or money to put a VAWT up high. The turbine - and
company - just gotta last awhile.
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360.678.7131
On Oct 20, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
Kelly;
I would insist on a years worth of actual wind speed versus energy
output data performed by an unaffiliated third party, before even
touching this project with a 10-foot gin pole.
DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:
Wind wrenches,
We have a subcontract to install 30kW of VAWT, along with 30kW of
PV for the Navy. The Navy specified Helix Wind turbines, and is
adamant on sticking with VAWTs, although they may accept an
alternative. The GC we are working under is sufficiently scared of
Helix to look for a viable alternative. Are there any?!
The GC has done some research and wants to use the UGE-4K from
Urban Green Energy http://www.urbangreenenergy.com
It's an H-style lift machine that appears to have several European
certifications on safety, power performance, noise, and vibration.
Anyone know anything about these turbines or company? UGE's address
is NY. Roy?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360-678-7131
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 17:25:00 -0600
From: Dan Fink <dan...@hughes.net>
To: "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind" <ke...@whidbeysunwind.com>
Cc: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
Message-ID: <4cbf7a4c.3000...@hughes.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Kelly;
I don't currently know of any product with which the words "VAWT" and
"last a while" can be used in the same sentence -- in terms of
company
longevity, number of units flying in the field, *or* turbine
reliability
record.
DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:
Hi Dan,
Project done been touched - we're committed to putting up
something with
an upright axis in the wind....
Do you have any info about Urban Green Energy? Fellow we've been
talking
with in NY is Ryan Gilchrist.
I've always thought it would be interesting if a client absolutely
insisted on VAWT's, no matter what I said, and we wouldn't be held
accountable for not dissuading them. The GC on this project has
offered
to buy the turbines and carry the manufacturer's warranty with the
Navy,
with us just responsible for the installation. I don't know if it
can
get better than that. Monitoring and everything.
I just need to decide whether to give up the material sale. If we
managed to find a VAWT that could endure, and have a reasonable
output
(it helps to get an additional 12?/kWh for production over net
metering
in WA), we have several customers who would be interested, even when
fully informed about the low ROI compared to PV. These folks just
want
to see SOME benefit to our long, windy winters and don't have the
moxy
or money to put a VAWT up high. The turbine - and company - just
gotta
last awhile.
Thanks,
-Kelly
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 18:43:20 -0500
From: "North Texas Renewable Energy Inc" <nt...@1scom.net>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
Message-ID: <gpejjfplcdgedngdfoofkegfcjaa.nt...@1scom.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Benn
just bear in mind that any adjustment of the module height, must be
performed by turning a jam nut under the S5-PV clamps mounting
surface and
will need to be done from below using an open-end wrench! If the
ribs are
pretty level that may not be such a chore. But I've seen some pretty
unlevel
metal ribs on older roofs.
Carry along a 10-12 foot rail section for a straightedge to get the
heights
on the money before you start to clamp modules.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]on Behalf Of benn
kilburn
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 5:18 PM
To: Wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
Not a lot of you guys in the field today 'eh? I was just checking a
spec
on my laptop and noticed i had a wireless signal and a mailbox full
of
great
feedback, thanks again everyone!!!
I'll go over all the details from everyone a little more when i'm
done
on
site for the day. For a few of you i just wanted to show you this
link to
the S-5-PV clamp, which is different from just the S-5! clamp >
Click
here
to learn more. < The S-5-PV does not need rails, the mod frames
sit on
the
'mounting disc' which can accommodate one or two modules. BUT,
with the
Enphase system, this leave no where to mount the inverters. Bill
made a
good point; save this mounting method for string inverter systems.
We are now planning this project using just the S-5 clamp/L-foot/
rail
system. No problems.
Back at 'er!
benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
b...@daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807
HAVE A SUNNY DAY
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:49:58 -0700
From: "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind" <ke...@whidbeysunwind.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
Message-ID: <08f54956-ed41-480e-9324-74bef8378...@whidbeysunwind.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed;
delsp=yes
Yeah, me either...... (sigh)...
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360.678.7131
On Oct 20, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
Kelly;
I don't currently know of any product with which the words "VAWT"
and "last a while" can be used in the same sentence -- in terms of
company longevity, number of units flying in the field, *or* turbine
reliability record.
DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:
Hi Dan,
Project done been touched - we're committed to putting up something
with an upright axis in the wind....
Do you have any info about Urban Green Energy? Fellow we've been
talking with in NY is Ryan Gilchrist.
I've always thought it would be interesting if a client absolutely
insisted on VAWT's, no matter what I said, and we wouldn't be held
accountable for not dissuading them. The GC on this project has
offered to buy the turbines and carry the manufacturer's warranty
with the Navy, with us just responsible for the installation. I
don't know if it can get better than that. Monitoring and
everything.
I just need to decide whether to give up the material sale. If we
managed to find a VAWT that could endure, and have a reasonable
output (it helps to get an additional 12?/kWh for production over
net metering in WA), we have several customers who would be
interested, even when fully informed about the low ROI compared to
PV. These folks just want to see SOME benefit to our long, windy
winters and don't have the moxy or money to put a VAWT up high. The
turbine - and company - just gotta last awhile.
Thanks,
-Kelly
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 17:01:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Exeltech <exelt...@yahoo.com>
To: gilliga...@gmail.com, RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter 1741 Listing Process
Message-ID: <212162.45991...@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Matt et. al.,
IEEE 1547, 7.1.1 states "The commissioning test shall be performed to
verify that the completed and installed ICS meets the requirements
of IEEE
Std 1547."
Verification on the grid-tie equipment has been done for you by the
NRTL
as part of the UL1741 test procedure, which, as Matt pointed out,
has IEEE
1547 as a subset.
I refer you back to page iii at the front of IEEE 1547.1, which
states:
"IEEE Std 1547.1 provides conformance test procedures to establish
and
verify compliance with the requirements of IEEE Std 1547.? When
applied,
the IEEE 1547.1 test procedures can provide a means for
manufacturers,
utilities, or independent testing agencies to confirm the
suitability of
any given interconnection system (ICS) or component intended for
the use
in the interconnection of DR ("distributed resources") with the EPS
("electric power system").? Such certification can lead to the ready
acceptance of confirmed equipment as suitable for use in the intended
service by the parties concerned."
[Note: Quoted items in parentheses are mine for clarification
purposes.]
Also...
In IEEE 1547.1 Section 6.4, "Documentation" refers to the
documentation we as manufacturers are required to provide with each
unit
to the NRTL for audit purposes.? The NRTL shows up unannounced, and
may
review our test records at any time.? The documentation mentioned in
IEEE 1547 is part of our audit trail.? "Production test
documentation"
is not included with units that leave the factory.
So .. in plain English .. none of the "Commissioning Tests" are
required
on site of any UL1741-certified inverter.? This is not to say an
AHJ or
utility won't ever ask for them, but if it happened, that would be an
AHJ/utility-specific issue.
My $0.02+ from the manufacturer's side of the fence...
Dan
--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Matt Lafferty <gilliga...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Matt Lafferty <gilliga...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter 1741 Listing Process
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 2:20 PM
Thanks Guys,
?
Here's an update for anyone who cares.
?
The specifics I was looking for?are included in IEEE
1547.1, which is inherently included in UL 1741. In other words,
since
2007, if
you have an inverter listed to UL 1741, it must also meet (by
certification) the
requirements of IEEE 1547 and 1547.1. In fact, the sections of UL
1741
that
formerly applied to the Utility Compatibility functions have been
removed.
Voido. They are now replaced by IEEE 1547 & IEEE 1547.1.
?
IEEE 1547.1 is clear and precise about the production test
requirements I was looking for. UL 1741 is weak on the issue. In
general,
utility companies rely on IEEE documents and requirements for their
guidance. I
see why some of them require field verification of the non-islanding
function by
flipping the AC switch off with the inverter running... Well, not
exactly.
Technically, the non-islanding function is something else. The
"Cease-to-energize" function is what they are actually verifying in
the
field.
Here's a short rundown on the issue....
?
IEEE 1547.1 (Clause 6; Production Tests) requires production
tests for response to abnormal voltage, response to abnormal
frequency,
and
synchronization. Combined, these would constitute production
testing that
confirms the non-islanding functions that are Type tested on a sample
unit.
And there's more. This section also requires that the documentation
of these production tests be provided with the equipment.
?
IEEE 1547.1 (Clause 7; Commissioning) requires some
verification and testing steps. These are allowed to be performed
by a
qualified
person and the utility may require that they witness the process (at
their option). Inherent to this section is a requirement that
there be a commissioning report generated which contains data
related to
the
process. "A commissioning test report shall be produced and shall
contain
the results of all tests and a listing of the final ICS
settings."
?
The required steps involved in Commissioning
include:?Verification and Inspection, Identifying any required Type
and
Production tests that were not performed and performing them in the
field;
Unintentional Islanding functionality test; Cease-to-energize
functionality
test; Documentation of revised settings.
?
Understand that all of these steps are REQUIRED AS PART OF THE
COMMISSIONING PROCESS, per IEEE 1547.1.
?
My focus is primarily on the Commissioning procedure... I'll skip the
inspection and verification?steps for this
post.
?
Note that Clause
7.3 of?the Commissioning section requires field performance of any
Type or
Production tests that have not been performed. When the
manufacturer fails
to
include the Documentation of Production Tests with their product, the
commissioning technician has no choice but to do them in the
field.
?
(NOTE TO INVERTER MFRS: INCLUDE CLEAR DOCUMENTATION OF YOUR
PRODUCTION TESTS WITH EACH INVERTER, PER IEEE 1547.1 Clause 6.4;
NOTE TO
INSTALLERS: HAVE THIS DOCUMENTATION HANDY AND LEAVE IT WITH THE
INVERTER.)
?
Clause 7.4 is the Unintentional Islanding functionality test.
If the unit is connected to the grid via reverse-power
or?minimum-power?protection equipment (commonly referred to as
non-export or zero-export; relatively rare) instructions are given
for
testing.
This test is?waived if the inverter is certified to Clause 5.7, the
Type test for Unintentional Islanding. (Check) If the unit is not
certified to
5.7 and not connected via zero-export protection equipment, this
function
is to
be tested according to procedures provided by the integrator or the
manufacturer. UL 1741 Listed inverters should be certified to
Clause?5.7,
which makes them eligible for the waiver.
?
Clause 7.5 is the
Cease-to-energize functionality test. This tests that the inverter
does
not
energize the output (AC) terminals on loss of grid AC. It also
checks that
the
restart/reconnect time delay (5-minute wait) functions as required.
The
test is
simple. Run the inverter at any power level and open the ungrounded
AC
phase
conductors. Verify that the output terminals of the inverter are not
energized.
Apply AC power. Verify that the unit waits the required amount of
time to
reconnect.
?
There are two important sentences in this Clause to know
about. The first is that "An ICS that meets the requirement so 5.9
(open-phase type test) and 7.4.1 (zero-export) satisfies the
requirements
of
this subclause." This means that a UL 1741 Listed inverter
interconnected
via zero-export equipment is exempt from this test.
?
The second sentence to know about is this one: "The
following procedure may be adjusted dependent on an agreement
between the
area
EPS authority (electric utility) and the system installer." This
means
that, every time the utility does not require you to test this
function,
they
are agreeing to "adjust" this procedure, even if they don't tell
you they
are.
You are getting a free pass.
?
Let me repeat that another way... IEEE 1547.1 REQUIRES that
this test be done unless the above-mentioned exemptions are met. As
an
installer, you must be prepared for and expect to do this test.
?
Nowhere in the Commissioning section of IEEE 1547.1 does it
exempt performing the Commissioning steps or producing?the
Commissioning
test report.
?
I am of the strong opinion that having the manufacturer's
Production Test Documentation on-hand will go a long way toward
gaining
the?utility's acceptance of the system without performing
the?Cease-to-energize functionality test. I believe that most of our
modern
inverters will meet one of the exceptions to the Unintentional
Islanding
functionality test. I believe that it is best practice to perform
comprehensive
commissioning on all systems, and record the relevant data. I have
always
found
that doing this and having your documentation together gains
respect from
AHJs
and utility inspectors. I believe that by doing this, we demonstrate
professionalism and responsibility. Working with utilities in a
manner
that
demonstrates professional, knowledgeable, and responsible behavior
can
only
benefit our respective organizations.
?
Happy commissioning!
?
Matt
Lafferty
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
Exeltech
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:20 PM
To:
RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter 1741 Listing
Process
boB covered the main points perfectly.
Manufacturers
of UL-certified products are subject to unannounced spot-checks
several
times a year by the issuing NTRL to verify the products coming
off
the
production line are absolutely identical to the products
submitted
for UL
testing.? Any major deviation in the production units from
lab-tested
units can result in immediate de-certification and possible
recall
of any
affected product(s).? "Major" in this case could be different
software, mechanical changes, or a substitution of any
components
that
affect safety or unit operation in any manner with unauthorized
components
.. for openers.
By the way .. for anyone who's not met boB in
person .. I had the good fortune to do so at the Midwest
Renewable
Energy
Fair in Wisconsin this past June.? Great
guy.
Dan
--- On Tue, 10/19/10, boB Gudgel
<b...@midnitesolar.com> wrote:
From:
boB Gudgel <b...@midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches]
Inverter 1741 Listing Process
To: gilliga...@gmail.com, "RE-wrenches"
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Tuesday, October 19,
2010, 12:42 AM
On 10/18/2010 9:53 PM, Matt Lafferty wrote:
Thanks for the info Dan and boB.
?
What production tests required to maintain listing? Do you
happen to know if there is a different regimen for micro vs
string vs
central inverters?
You mean, a
difference between the two when UL, ETL, CSA comes by for
their
pop
inspection ??
Off hand, I don't? see why one inverter would
be given any different kind of attention than the other
type.?
The UL/ETL followup inspections are basically to make sure
you are
following the proper
manufacturing and testing processes such as,
software version, verification that you are using
UL recognized?
sources of parts and materials, hi-potting at the correct
voltages,
etc.
They are both grid-tie inverters so the testing
processes are very similar.
?I'm sure that Dan will pick up
on anything? important that I forgot.
boB
?
I'm working on developing?a detailed commissioning
procedure. Detailed yet generic. There will be at least two
versions
for inverters. One for string and one for central. In my
book,
central
inverters have re-combiners (standalone or integral) and
string
inverters don't. I'm trying to understand which functions
are
tested in the
factory on every unit so I can avoid unnecessary
duplication by
the
commissioning people.
?
Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on the
subject!
?
Matt
Lafferty
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of Exeltech
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010
10:04 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re:
[RE-wrenches] Inverter 1741 Listing Process
Matt,
The 5-minute delay is verified in
the group of inverters sent to the test laboratory.?
Then,
as long as the software and hardware don't change,
it's
presumed
the delay in all production units meets the value(s)
measured in
the tested units.
An alteration in either hardware OR
software can result in a unit being required to
completely
re-test (as Bob pointed out).? NRTLs get copies of the
source code and can and do periodically compare
their copy
as
submitted with the original test units to the software
being
programmed into the inverters during production to
verify
it's
the same.
NRTLs conduct unannounced "field audits" by
simply showing up on site and randomly selecting
various
aspects
of the product for verification -- including the
software.
The overall UL1741 certification process is
extremely complex, very time consuming, and quite
expensive.
Dan
--- On Fri, 10/8/10,
boB Gudgel <b...@midnitesolar.com>
wrote:
From:
boB Gudgel <b...@midnitesolar.com>
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter 1741 Listing Process
To: gilliga...@gmail.com,
"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date:
Friday, October 8, 2010, 9:26 PM
On 10/8/2010 6:04 PM, Matt
Lafferty wrote:
Hola Wrenches,
?
Does anybody know off the top of their
head if the "5-minute-wait-to-interconnect"
function is tested on 100% of inverters produced?
(i.e.
every?single inverter is tested with AC & DC
within
the start parameters of the unit for at least 5
minutes)
?
Thanks!
?
Matt
Lafferty
Good
question.? I bet it's not 100% tested because if the
software does not
change, then they may just not wait the
extra 5 minutes in order to save money on testing.
Or,
maybe they do a random sampling for this
test.
Theoretically, it shouldn't matter as long as the
software does not change
and the hardware is tested enough
in other ways, like, timers and clocks etc.
BTW,
Nowadays, there are two options for manufacturers of
grid
interactive inverters....
And the UL spec has gotten
more stringent.
One option? is that you have to
have? the? code (software) blessed by the NRTL in a
separate process (another UL specification, (UL 1998
?Software
in Programmable Components")
OR, if they don't go for
that option, then if software changes need to be
done to
the
inverter, the inverter must (technically) go
through the
UL1741 listing process all over
again.
boB
?
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:10:00 -0500
From: "North Texas Renewable Energy Inc" <nt...@1scom.net>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Message-ID: <gpejjfplcdgedngdfoofoeggcjaa.nt...@1scom.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MessageAfter re-reading your original letter Chris, it sounds like
the
roof
makeover hasn't happened yet. If that's the case suggest to the owner
that,
based on the 100 years or so of combined professional experience of
the PV
installer community, he should not use the engineered rafters or
the 1/2"
decking if he's wanting PV on top.
Pull out a copy of the International Building Code and show him.
not a roofer,
Jim Duncan
Dear Wrenches
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to
upgrade
it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The rafters are
those
(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and
shingles).
What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you beef
up the
wood to lag into?
Thanks for all your input.
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 18:50:32 -0600
From: "Chris Daum" <ch...@oasismontana.com>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Message-ID: <1287622268_1250...@gwa5>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You are correct -- and there is a strong possibility of adding
another
layer
(1/2" or 3/4") of roofing material under the new metal roof. High
wind
area
is a consideration, and I don't think those fake I-beams are meaty
enough
to
lag into. Hence I request your input!
--Chris @ the Oasis Montana
_____
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of North
Texas
Renewable Energy Inc
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:10 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
After re-reading your original letter Chris, it sounds like the roof
makeover hasn't happened yet. If that's the case suggest to the owner
that,
based on the 100 years or so of combined professional experience of
the PV
installer community, he should not use the engineered rafters or
the 1/2"
decking if he's wanting PV on top.
Pull out a copy of the International Building Code and show him.
not a roofer,
Jim Duncan
Dear Wrenches
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to
upgrade
it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The rafters are
those
(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and
shingles).
What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you beef
up the
wood to lag into?
Thanks for all your input.
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
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Message: 11
Date: 20 Oct 2010 20:58:59 -0400
From: richard.l.rat...@valley.net (Richard L Ratico)
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Message-ID: <136086...@retriever.valley.net>
Content-Type: text/plain
Chris,
You've probably already considered and rejected this... Unisolar PVL
modules on
standing seam roofing. Solves the structure & wind problems. Goes
fast if
installed on the pans before they go on the roof. Price is pretty
good per
watt
now.
Can't beat the look. Made in USA. I think the only downside is you
may not
have
enough area to place 5kW.
I bet it's getting cold in Montana. You could stick the modules on
the
pans in a
heated space somewhere. This would really cut down your time and
exposure
on the
roof.
Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric
--- You wrote:
Dear Wrenches
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to
upgrade
it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The rafters are
those
(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and
shingles).
What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you beef
up the
wood to lag into?
Thanks for all your input.
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
--- end of quote ---
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:29:33 -0600
From: "Chris Daum" <ch...@oasismontana.com>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Message-ID: <1287624608_1251...@gwa5>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Dick:
Nope, not just high wind area, but the site gets a real bashing of
hail at
least once every 3 to 4 years (like quarter sized hail at 60 - 80
mph) --
so
I will pass on the plasticky amorphous stuff, thank you, although
yes,
they
do look nice (til they get those whitish translucent spots from
hail).
There's room for about a 5.5KW array of some decent modules (read:
Sanyos
or
some other high efficient modules). I just think we need another
layer of
roofing material; we'll need 16 sheets of some kinda plywood. I am
leaning
more and more in that direction.....
But I really do appreciate all your thoughts! And by the way,
right NOW,
sunny day time temps are near 70..... Nights are a chilly 35.....
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
Richard L
Ratico
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:59 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Chris,
You've probably already considered and rejected this... Unisolar PVL
modules
on standing seam roofing. Solves the structure & wind problems.
Goes fast
if
installed on the pans before they go on the roof. Price is pretty
good per
watt now.
Can't beat the look. Made in USA. I think the only downside is you
may not
have enough area to place 5kW.
I bet it's getting cold in Montana. You could stick the modules on
the
pans
in a heated space somewhere. This would really cut down your time and
exposure on the roof.
Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric
--- You wrote:
Dear Wrenches
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to
upgrade
it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The rafters are
those
(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and
shingles).
What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you beef
up the
wood to lag into?
Thanks for all your input.
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
--- end of quote ---
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 21:31:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Darryl Thayer <daryl_so...@yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
Message-ID: <284147.86340...@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I have been known to be an idiot, but put it up for the labor IF
you can
be sure you are done. I have tested some, and not only did they
not last,
they did not produce.
--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
<ke...@whidbeysunwind.com> wrote:
From: Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <ke...@whidbeysunwind.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:49 PM
Yeah, me either...... (sigh)...
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360.678.7131
On Oct 20, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
Kelly;
I don't currently know of any product with which the
words "VAWT" and "last a while" can be used in the same
sentence -- in terms of company longevity, number of units
flying in the field, *or* turbine reliability record.
DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:
Hi Dan,
Project done been touched - we're committed to
putting up something with an upright axis in the wind....
Do you have any info about Urban Green Energy?
Fellow we've been talking with in NY is Ryan Gilchrist.
I've always thought it would be interesting if a
client absolutely insisted on VAWT's, no matter what I said,
and we wouldn't be held accountable for not dissuading them.
The GC on this project has offered to buy the turbines and
carry the manufacturer's warranty with the Navy, with us
just responsible for the installation. I don't know if it
can get better than that. Monitoring and everything.
I just need to decide whether to give up the
material sale. If we managed to find a VAWT that could
endure, and have a reasonable output (it helps to get an
additional 12?/kWh for production over net metering in WA),
we have several customers who would be interested, even when
fully informed about the low ROI compared to PV. These folks
just want to see SOME benefit to our long, windy winters and
don't have the moxy or money to put a VAWT up high. The
turbine - and company - just gotta last awhile.
Thanks,
-Kelly
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 01:55:30 -0600
From: benn kilburn <b...@daystarsolar.ca>
To: Wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Message-ID: <col121-w64a4d6d7499097655528e0ad...@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
chris,don't forget to make sure that the existing roof structure is
engineered to support the added weight of the extra layer of
plywood, as
well as the racking/modules.
benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A
SUNNY DAY
From: ch...@oasismontana.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:29:33 -0600
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Hi Dick:
Nope, not just high wind area, but the site gets a real bashing of
hail
at
least once every 3 to 4 years (like quarter sized hail at 60 - 80
mph)
-- so
I will pass on the plasticky amorphous stuff, thank you, although
yes,
they
do look nice (til they get those whitish translucent spots from
hail).
There's room for about a 5.5KW array of some decent modules (read:
Sanyos or
some other high efficient modules). I just think we need another
layer
of
roofing material; we'll need 16 sheets of some kinda plywood. I am
leaning
more and more in that direction.....
But I really do appreciate all your thoughts! And by the way, right
NOW,
sunny day time temps are near 70..... Nights are a chilly 35.....
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
Richard
L
Ratico
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:59 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Chris,
You've probably already considered and rejected this... Unisolar PVL
modules
on standing seam roofing. Solves the structure & wind problems. Goes
fast if
installed on the pans before they go on the roof. Price is pretty
good
per
watt now.
Can't beat the look. Made in USA. I think the only downside is you
may
not
have enough area to place 5kW.
I bet it's getting cold in Montana. You could stick the modules on
the
pans
in a heated space somewhere. This would really cut down your time
and
exposure on the roof.
Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric
--- You wrote:
Dear Wrenches
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to
upgrade
it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The rafters are
those
(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and
shingles).
What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you
beef up
the
wood to lag into?
Thanks for all your input.
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
--- end of quote ---
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End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 3, Issue 585
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