Hey Matt, Let's stay on the technical points, and leave all the political and opinionated nonsense for some other forum. Thank you!
Richard Dean Technical Support Specialist SunWize Technologies 9:00 - 5:30pm Pacific Time (805) 569-6402 (866) 975-7957 toll free rd...@sunwize.com www.sunwize.com -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:27 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 3, Issue 566 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Trace/Xantrex info (Allan Sindelar) 2. Re: UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems (Joel Davidson) 3. Re: UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems (Matt Lafferty) 4. Re: UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems (Dan Fink) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 11:47:44 -0600 From: Allan Sindelar <al...@positiveenergysolar.com> To: Brian Teitelbaum <bteitelb...@aeesolar.com> Cc: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace/Xantrex info Message-ID: <4cab64c0.4060...@positiveenergysolar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/atta chments/20101005/288c6816/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:52:47 -0700 From: "Joel Davidson" <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems Message-ID: <012abee959e24ebbbc3b642f9e908...@joel> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Hello Peter, It was good to see you at the LADWP Commissioners Meeting even though we didn't have time to talk. I told Mr. Benyamin, LADWP AGM, at the meeting that there were no safety issues regarding grid-tie PV system with batteries because the inverters were IEEE 929 compliant. He said he was concerned about batteries being added to a PV system after the initial utility inspection. I told him that batteries can not be added to a non-battery inverter. He said it is being done so the conversation ended. How many people are adding battery inverters later? I've done hundreds of grid-tied systems and never added a battery inverter and battery bank after the initial installation. Wrenches, are you adding batteries to non-battery grid-tied PV systems after the initial installation? If yes, what inverter and how do you deal with the inspector? Joel Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Davidson" <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems > Peter, > > California utilities use to require operating steps (list not UL listing) > for all grid-tied systems in the interconnection application. A copy of > the operating steps from the equipment manual sufficed. > > Joel Davidson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> > To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:05 AM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems > > > Are there UL testing procedures for Grid-tied Battery Backup Systems, such > as the Xantrex XW systems and the Outback GVFX systems? The reason for my > inquiry is that the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power intends to > require that "...applicants installing Battery Backups on their solar > systems to submit an Operational Listing detailing a precise list of steps > of what were to happen if the LADWP grid were to lose power." > > - Peter > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President > California Solar Engineering, Inc. > 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 > CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 > peter.parr...@calsolareng.com > Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 19:50:44 -0700 From: "Matt Lafferty" <gilliga...@gmail.com> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems Message-ID: <42f71c0179bf4b10a6b33a8724197...@gilligone> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Joel, I've seen a handful of Sunny Islands go in after the initial PV system is installed. Six or seven. And I've seen Sunny Islands go in where there isn't any PV. All but one of the ones that I've seen installed after the PV have been permitted and inspected. ALL of these systems went in because of utility reliability problems. (Pay attention Mr. AGM... When people do this, they are paying a lot of money BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO YOUR JOB.) With regard to any realistic hazards to utility personnel or operations these systems may cause... There aren't any. There weren't any in 2002 when the SW scare caused the turds in LADWP's bowels to harden up the first time. Every modern battery-based inverter that I know of has a LISTED transfer switch to isolate itself from the grid on loss of grid power. This is as much to protect the inverter from the broken grid, as it is to protect the broken grid from the inverter. The crux of the matter, with regard to AC coupled inverters, is that these systems don't have a thing to do with the PV, per se. They can be, and are being, installed in applications with or without PV on a regular basis. Just like any electrical work, they are required to be permitted and inspected when installed. If a property owner chooses to not get the required permits, it's on them. Stuff happens. People do sh*t. Every day. Mr. AGM is chasing a boogeyman. I believe that A LOT MORE PV WILL BE INSTALLED WITHOUT PERMITS AND UTILITY INSPECTIONS when we finally do away with the incentive programs. That's when the guy should be worried. After the incentives stop. Tell him that the best way to ensure that PV systems are inspected, is to have a robust incentive program and keep everybody "in the system" so to speak. If he's so gosh-darn worried about people adding AC coupled backup systems after the initial PV system is inspected, tell him to start an incentive program for those, too. No permit and inspection? No money. Simple as that. Pick a dollar figure that is twice as much as the permit fee and everybody will go for it. Seriously. The folks who are gonna do guerilla stuff are gonna do guerilla stuff. Same as it ever was... In the case of a "customer adds battery backup without a permit and it might hurt the utility or lineworkers"... That's stupid. Number one, the number of potential customers who might do this is infinitessimally small. I would be totally shocked if there were 100 in LADWP territory in a year. My best guess is more like half a dozen. Remember, this is ONLY the guerilla stuff. But let's use 100 as a worst-case number. "OMG! A hundred?" (Gasp, flutter, faint) Of that 100, 100 of them are now paying a higher electricity bill than they would otherwise be. Score one for the utility. As long as they keep the power on. Let's say that 80 of them use modern, off-the-shelf equipment. Doesn't have to be wired right. Doesn't have to be inspected. Just modern, off-the-shelf and IEEE 929 compliant. If it's like that, ain't no harm coming to the grid in no way. So, now we're talking about 20 needles in the smoggy haystack of LA. How big are they? What kind of fault currents can they put out? What kind of backyard inventions are they? What if they are backfeeding the grid when it's operating and running their meters backward? What if they are capable of backfeeding the grid during a power outage? Where are they? How dangerous are they to the grid and grid workers? That's the scary part, nobody knows... Ooooh.... Ooooohhh.... Boogeyman! Let's say 10 of the 20 are rogue, independent, half-witted inventors scattered all over; and the other 10 are a bunch of Tea Party Freaks on one cul de sac who bought some cross-wired crap from a screaming freak they heard about on Fux Noise... Really dangerous stuff here... The inventors ain't gonna hurt you. These types aren't gonna have unlimited batteries and aren't gonna be building any really big power stuff. They are tinkerers. Low-power. Proof of concept. What do you even care if they are charging their batteries off the grid and discharging them back onto the grid? Unless they are over 10kW, it's no more disruptive to your grid operations than a hot tub. The best they can do is have a net increase of 2.5% in their electricity usage. During a power outage, the loads between their place and the open grid is gonna suck their batteries inside out if their stuff stays connected. If they weren't sophisticated enough to build something that isolates on power loss, their equipment will either cook or go dead in no time. The Tea Party cul de sac worries me. Here you have 10 houses with armed freaks inside. And now you're telling me they have batteries, too? YIKES! Nah. Not gonna happen. This is a flawed scenario. Tea Party Freaks buy GENERATORS! So, to recap, there were only 90 guerilla battery systems that year after all. 80 of them were safe due to the equipment. 10 of them were safe due to the ignorance of the owner. And the real danger to the grid is a cul de sac of Tea Party Freaks with generators and double-male extension cords. In reality, you're probably talking about a half dozen unpermitted battery backup systems installed down there a year. I would be really surprised if more than one was in some way capable of backfeeding to a faulted grid for longer than a couple seconds. Any system that is bad for grid operations will show itself sooner, rather than later, in one way or another. When these things are found, they need to be dealt with appropriately. I served as the Grid Cop in Sacramento for a couple years. In the course of my travels, I got to see some colorful people and some colorful battery-based setups. I got to help Y2Kers get onto Net Metering. I had to tell people that their power was gonna be shut off if they didn't physically take stuff out. I had to do re-inspections. I probably saved a couple homes from burning down. And maybe a life or two. I saw homemade equipment and factory made stuff. I saw double-male extension cords. I saw a pile of burned up small square-wave inverters that one guy smoked trying to hook into the house wiring. That guy had a couple modules lying on his roof with an orange extension cord coming thru the window to the charge controller... The long and the short of it is that none of these people stood a chance of hurting the grid with their equipment. And they weren't trying to. With all due respect to the AGM... He's whacked if he's trying to use this boogeyman as an obstruction to PV. Tell him to go home and count up all the unpermitted things around his own house. Tell him not to forget to count the ceiling fan he had put in the bedroom and the water heater he had replaced. If he wants to do something to keep the grid safe, start registering gas cans. $0.02001 Matt Lafferty -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems Hello Peter, It was good to see you at the LADWP Commissioners Meeting even though we didn't have time to talk. I told Mr. Benyamin, LADWP AGM, at the meeting that there were no safety issues regarding grid-tie PV system with batteries because the inverters were IEEE 929 compliant. He said he was concerned about batteries being added to a PV system after the initial utility inspection. I told him that batteries can not be added to a non-battery inverter. He said it is being done so the conversation ended. How many people are adding battery inverters later? I've done hundreds of grid-tied systems and never added a battery inverter and battery bank after the initial installation. Wrenches, are you adding batteries to non-battery grid-tied PV systems after the initial installation? If yes, what inverter and how do you deal with the inspector? Joel Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Davidson" <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems > Peter, > > California utilities use to require operating steps (list not UL listing) > for all grid-tied systems in the interconnection application. A copy of > the operating steps from the equipment manual sufficed. > > Joel Davidson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> > To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:05 AM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems > > > Are there UL testing procedures for Grid-tied Battery Backup Systems, such > as the Xantrex XW systems and the Outback GVFX systems? The reason for my > inquiry is that the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power intends to > require that "...applicants installing Battery Backups on their solar > systems to submit an Operational Listing detailing a precise list of steps > of what were to happen if the LADWP grid were to lose power." > > - Peter > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President > California Solar Engineering, Inc. > 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 > CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 > peter.parr...@calsolareng.com > Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 08:56:22 -0600 From: Dan Fink <dan...@hughes.net> To: gilliga...@gmail.com, RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems Message-ID: <4cac8e16.2080...@hughes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Nice rant, Matt! When I'm training fire departments in PV safety, I always use a comment I stole from Michael Coddington of NREL And Michael Sheehan of IREC from the Solar ABCs / NREL web lecture on utility external disconnect switches -- Rather than PV or battery backup systems, what firefighters and utility workers should *really* be concerned about is the homeowner who went to Home Depot or Lowes on Dec 31, 1999, purchased a generator and automatic transfer switch, and wired it all up wrong. It's estimated that up to 100,000 of these were installed. DAN FINK Buckville Energy Consulting ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 3, Issue 566 ******************************************* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
